Hello all! I'm new to this forum.

I'm a long bow and shotgun hunter who has never owned a rifle, but am looking to increase my hunting options. I thought that my first "rifle" should be a drilling (their versatility and design has really captured my interest).

Problem is that I know very little about how to go about getting one (I understand that nearly all makers are European with Germany being a major center), price range, new or used, makers, etc?

This is what I'm thinking about based on my very limited knowledge:

- a 12 x 12 gauge shotgun on top for both shot and slugs. Hope to have removable chokes with the option of using rifled chokes with Brenneke slugs for close-up dangerous game. Ideally, barrels would be regulated both for shot and for slugs to converge at say 50-70 meters.

- a 30-06 rifle barrel beneath (mostly for vesatility and easy access to ammo).

- a .223 Remington insert for one of the shotgun barrels (long range small game) with an adapter for a .22 LR (quail and plinking).

- short barrel length of around 20-22 inches for easy of movement and carry.

- scope mount (any ideas?) and a scope (any ideas?)

- this first one will definately be a "user" in the field. So ornamentation, fancy engraving, nor fancy stocks (unless to hold inserts and adapters) are really necessary.

I would be grateful for any and all advice/wisdom which anyone might be able to offer. Am I headed in the right direction?

Many thanks in advance!

TBK you are asking a lot from one gun. I doubt that you will find all of your requirments in one of the shelf gun. Do a search for drillings on gunshop.com and gunsamerica.com and some of the dealers that advertise on this site. I've never seen screw in chokes in a drilling. Most older ones are choked full and full. 12ga and 30-06 run premium for price. I've also never seen 20-22inch barrels. You could get one made with your requirements but I doubt that you will find a used one with them.

TBK, I think that Mike is right about it being a lot to ask of just one gun. Maybe even too much. You could look at http://www.bobjonesguns.com. He always has a lot of drillings on his site although I have never seen what you are asking for. He is a good source to start asking questions. Good luck. Let us know if you ever find this gun.

Bill G.

you just need this 4-barrel: http://www.bobjonesguns.com/details.asp?id=C4083V

Hello to you too.
Get a used Colt/Sauer Drilling in 12/12/30-06 and try it out as is. If, after familiarization and testing you still think you need shorter barrels and mobile chokes, contact a good gunsmith familiar with Drillings and disscuss these modifications with him.
I prefer German claw mounts but EAW or similar side pivot mounts are also an excellent choice. As for the scope, I would try Burris Euro 1.5-6x40 with illuminated reticle.
There are many insert barrels (and cartridge adapters) available so the possibilities here are almost unlimited. But I would try to avoid overdoing it as the gun can get too heavy and too complitated very quickly.
Regards,
Jani

BK,welcome. Another site is http://www.drillinghotline.com. I purchased a 1968 Heym drilling bored 20/20Ga over .270Win from these folks (JMar)earlier this year. JMar has been in the business for about 20 years and is straight forward in their dealings. My Heym drilling weighs 7.5 Lbs and has 23 inch barrels bored I.C. and Mod. It takes a little getting used to with the short barrels. 40 years ago I wanted to buy this gun new from Heym - the only difference was a 30-30 cal barrel. I frankly didn't know how to import the gun at that time and I wasn't smart enough to ask the right questions - back then the price was $360.

Most hunters have thought of a drilling at one time or another---I have---and my guess is that most of us decided that it's the hunt that counts, not having all tubes available to take all prey covered by hide or feathers.

Weight is always a factor and some hunters make a fetish of the lightest rifle and shotgun. Most of us learn that something in-between light and heavy is best for most situations. Drillings are generally heavier.

Consider, too, if your two barrels are smoothbore for birds, at what range is your rifle barrel intended to take boar, deer, elk, antelope or moose? Telescope sights are out. Drillings take too much from the magic and mystery of hunting for me.

My welcome also to the board, a good place of generously offered information and opinion.

I like and have a number of different guns, but the one that goes hunting with me most of the time is my old reliable Sauer Drilling. Of course I live in Europe and we do a lot of mixed bag drive hunting. - Jani

You don't need rifled chokes for Brenneke slugs...they have their own "rifling". They do work well though.

You will find more guns in 16/16/rifle than 12. It's a good compromise to keep the weight down.

Also, better to get a rifle bbl for a rimmed ctg. 8x57R or 7x57R are very good choices. 9.3x72R is a big slug but a rather weak round. 74R is much better if you can find it.

Scope mounts will be determined by the bases on the gun. Some have claw bases and that will pretty much lock you into claw mounts, not a bad thing but spendy as hell if you have to get a set made up, they are not standard.

Thanks to all for the excellent advice. Since I'm a newbie, all comments are helpful including the ones that make me reflect on whether the drilling is right for what I am looking for.

By chance, guess what was also on the Bob Jones website recommended above? An unfired Krieghoff Trumph Drilling 12 x 12 over 30-06 with 25 inch barrels! (I wonder if this is a sign from the Drilling angels or demons? ha! ha!) The price is quite a far ways from inexpensive, though (US$5,450)

I also checked out JMar's site and sent him an email. On his site there is mention of Briley choke tubes and inserts for Drillings.

Just two questions:

a) So far it looks like Krieghoff and Colt/Sauer produce 12x12 over 30-06 Drillings. Does anyone else?

b) How easy is it to get inserts made for for a used Drilling? Do inserts have to be made by the original factory? If so, are the factories willing to make one for a used gun?

Any and all advice would be gratefully appreciated!

Many thanks again!

gods are

TBK,
Colt/Sauer is a think of the past (but still available used), Sauer also quit making Drillings. I think most of the current Drilling makers - Krieghoff, Heym, Blaser, Merkel, Zoli, etc. - will make one in this caliber combination, but I would try to find a used one (a much less expensive approach).
Inserts can be used in any Drilling, new or used, and there is no need for them to be made by the original factory.
And another point. If your interest is primarely big game hunting you might consider a double rifle Drilling. One is made in France by Mathelon, with a 20g tube under sxs rifle configuration. Some others are made with two different rifle calibers (and even with 3 rifle barrels). As long as your pocket allows it, Drillings come in unlimitred configurations...
-Jani

What dangerous game do you intend to hunt?

Cabelas has a Merkel 96K in 12x12x30-06
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/conten...requestid=13441

If you want an insert to convert a shotgun barrel for rifle use:
http://www.mcace.com/shotguninserts.htm

Pete

While I love the idea of a drilling, any hope for an accurate .223 insert for long range small targets is pushing envelope beyond usefullness in my opinion. What sort of precision is to be expected is the real question. I hope to hear opinions but would really like to see performance first hand. The 223 would need its own sighting system (on and off) too.

My guess is that a 5 shot group shot at 200 yards would be bigger than a fox but I've been wrong before.

Serious fun on a prairie dog town requires a 1.5" grouping at 300 yards. This is opinion, not fact.

As one of the strong believers in the drilling as a practical hunting weapon, and as one who hunts his combination guns regularly, I thought I would weigh in as well.

If cost is no object, then one of the "American" drillings shooting a .270 or 30-06 is certainly an option. My experience is that the more American the gun, the more expensive it is, and often the "clunkier." A particularly blunt instrument is the Colt/Sauer with beavertail forend and 12x12 tubes. Slap a scope on it, and mount an insert barrell and you have something that starts to feel like a crew-served weapon.

I am also not a fan of rimless rounds in any break-open gun. The various extractor systems have been improved over the years, and you are unlikely to ever have your life in the balance, but I have seen one Commie Sauer jump the rim during extraction, and it took a trip to an experienced smith to get things back in order. You potentially can save a bit of money and have a great rifle round by opting for one of the classic European rimmed cartridges such as the 7x57R, 6.5x57R, or 8x57R. Ammo is readily available over the web, and they'll deliver to your door.

You also need a scope. If you don't want one, then you really don't need a rifle caliber like the ones you have mentioned. With the exception of Sempert and Krieghoff, and the post-war Krieghoff, that almost always means a claw mount (the older Krieghoffs used a proprietary mount). I am unaware of any EAWs which work on a drilling. A couple of people in the country will install claws for around $1200-$1400. If you find an older gun it may already have claw bases (when GI's "liberated" them they tended to overlook the small leather cases elsewhere in the closet which contained the scope). J.J. Perodeau at Champlin Arms will make a set of rings to fit most bases for around $800.

Insert barrels are a neat addition. I have never used anything as hot as a .223. I do have a .22 mag, .22lr, and .22 hornet. The inserts have adjustments which allow them to be shifted to the point of aim of the scope. Site in the regular rifle normally and then adjust the insert barrel to the scope. Thus, within the point blank range of the lighter caliber, both shoot to the same point of aim. Very neat when a fox comes drifting along. Also, by shifting between rifle and shot, one has a set trigger for both rifles. Very, very neat. If you shoot Breneke slugs, you may also find the left barrel shoots remarkably well to the open sights at fifty yards. Most were regulated to a Breneke of one type or the other and one of my guns will throw a right left two inch group at fifty yards with boring consistancy. And no, you neither want nor need rifled choke tubes.

Finally, those who question the accuracy of drillings probably have not shot them very much. Near MOA with the right bullet is the norm. I suspect it has something to do with the rigidness of those supporting shotgun tubes. All the more reason to have a detachable scope to take advantage of the inherent accuracy of those high energy rifle rounds.

Don't turn your back on the sixteen if you find the right gun otherwise. Like the rifle, you can get all the sorts of shells you would fire in that twelve bore delivered to your door. While I agree the 12 is more versatile, the sixteen makes a much more elegant package.

Lastly, Bob Jones is the best person in the country from whom to buy a drilling. The gun will be in perfect operating order, and exactly as described. Look forward to hearing what you get. Waidman's Heil, Joe

"within the point blank range of the lighter caliber"

Is quite a far piece from.....

"a .223 Remington insert for one of the shotgun barrels (long range small game) with an adapter for a .22 LR (quail and plinking)."

I don't question the accuracy of a drilling but do question the accuracy of a rifle insert.

Bob Jones can answer more question about drillings than most dealer and I have never heard a complaint about a deal with him. If you are interested in finding a good drilling he could be very valuable to talk to. JMHO Pick his brain.

But the recomendation to stay away from rimless cartidges I comletly agree with. Metric rim cartidges will be easier to find and keep shooting but stay away froma few of the older fringe cartridges unless you like spending a lot of time working on brass, sizing brass, necking brass, reloading, ect... Factory brass is not to under valued in these old guns.

Instead of a Drilling, you really should look at a Vierling. From your description, it will come closer to meeting your expectations. Bob Jones has one, 16ga x 16ga x 22 long x 8x57JR, http://www.bobjonesguns.com/details.asp?id=C4083V

Pete

Bob Jones also has a bock drilling: 16X.270X.22 lr That thing would do me for the rest of my life. And it is beautiful, tho spendy. I salivate over that websight every day.

I second Joe Taylor's recommendation for the 16 guage. It will be lots cheaper, it looks better, it will usually be lighter, and good ammo is widely available. There are probably ten times as many 16's on the market as 12's or 20's. The hunt for the gun is a big part of the fun. Good luck. mike

Thanks again to all for the continuing education.

This world of cartridges, metric and non-metric, rimless and rim is new to me. So I really do appreciate all the advice.

In terms of game and such, I plan to use the drilling for my "backyard" hunts in Hawaii when I get back there (now working in Singapore). The idea is mainly that I'm used to carrying my two piece longbow + arrows + quiver in a neat 36 inch long package on my back. I'd put it together for the final stalk. So the idea of carrying a heavy Drilling in two pieces then putting it together when needed appeals a lot.

I would mostly be using the shotgun for a range of birds from quail up to turkey size (maybe Canada goose in New Zealand) as well as buck shot for deer, goat, and boar. Slugs for boar, feral bison or cow are helpful when a situation pops up (and one never knows when an invitation to do a cull hunt for water buffalo in Australia comes up! Ha! Ha!). But it's good to have a rifle when a goat, pig, feral bull or bison, etc. appears accross a valley (hence the 30-06 or 8 x 57R). It's also fun to have a longish range varmint round for the rabbits, hares, rats, mongooses, etc. (for which perhaps a .22 Hornet would be better than a .223?)

So far, based on your advice, my thoughts are drifting to a short barrel 12 x 12 with choke tubes (ungainly yes, but beautiful in its own chunky way! Ha! I weigh around 275 pounds and am very top heavy [fat head?] so I haven't had too many problems with recoil so far) over a 8 x 57R (where does one get cheap practice ammo?) plus removable scope with inserts for a .22 Hornet (or .223?). But please do feel free to offer more advice. I'm still not really confident on what I'm doing.

Another two insert questions:

a) I notice that makers like Krieghoff advertise factory inserts which convert one of the shotgun barrels into a big caliber rifle barrel matching the drilling rifle barrel. They claim this creates a sort of bock drilling / "double rifle" plus. They seem pretty confident of the accuracy of the big caliber insert. Is this confidence warranted? Can a big caliber rifle insert into a shotgun barrel shoot about as well as the drilling rifle barrel? If so, how about a high power, light caliber like the .223?

b) when using a rifle insert in a shotgun barrel, do the shot shell extractors extract the insert when opened? Or is there some way that the extractors grab the smaller rifle shell?

Hope to be contacting dealers like Bob Jones soon!

Any and all comments would be welcome!

In practical terms they're good only to about 100m, or effective range of iron sighted rifle barrel which depends on shooter's skills. You can shoot further with scoped one, but what happens if grouse flushes? That rifle barrels is not going to help you in shotgun only hunting zone. In short, they're not as versatile as folks claim them to be.
Want pro-grade DGR? Wait a while longer and buy Ruger Model 77 'Hawkeye Alaskan'.
Those Gery complications look good next to Christmas tree decorated with those hand-painted German ornaments. Cukoo clock completes that ensamble nicely, you will not get an argument on that front from me.
I would try to find 20x20/.30-30Win with 'Dural' frame if I really wanted one.

If you're into dangerous game chasing then 9,3x74-9,3x74/12ga by certain well known Poznan maker would work. It's made on 'Clamshell' action, so it's very expensive. That's hardly surprising, since you probably know how big boys want to pry them shells open! Also it's listed by Puglisi Gun Emporium and they're dreadfully expensive. Exclusive und Expensive BANK

BK, if your jeans have deep pockets, you may wish to consider a combination gun. JMar offers a new Krieghoff 20Ga over a 30-06. This neat combination gun is offered with a 30-06 shotgun barrel inset, i.e., you have a 30-06 O/U double rifle and when you wish to pursue birds, remove the 30-06 tube. Detachable scopes are also offered. I wish I could justify this purchase. In pondering this combination - when bird hunting; if one misses with the first barrel, what are the odds of hitting with the second barrel? This combination also assures that ammunition should be available at most country stores.

I would seriously consider a 16 x 16 x 9.3 - 74R -- a serious rifle round, not far behind the .375 H & H.

Most good drillings are VERY carefully made to keep weight down (think thin barrels where they can be thin, safely). So, you may not have enough "meat" to permit choke tube installation.

If you do find something you like with fixed chokes, you can adjust pattern performance, more than many expect, by cartridge selection -- and even more by careful handloading. Moderate velocities (around 1200 fps), hard shot, then adding buffering, tighten and even out patterns considerably. Spreader wads or inserts, with the opposites, open chokes. Feasible changes are +- one full designation and often more.

Aloha to a fellow Hawaii hunter!

I've been in the same boat, and I've wanted a drilling for quite some time, but moving back to Hawaii has dampened my desire.

The reason is that according to the bird hunting regulations on page 12 of the bird regs, "No person shall possess any rifle, combination-rifle firearm [...] where game mammal hunting is closed. Only the weapons that are authorized for the particular hunt are to be in the hunter's possession while in the hunting area." http://www.state.hi.us/dlnr/dofaw/hunting/BirdHuntingRegs_Chap122-02.pdf

Now this depends on areas, but for example when hunting on Mauna Kea on the Big Island when there are "bird days" Sat-Sun-State Holidays (and Wed-Thurs some years) mammel hunting is closed. While my experience is limited on the other islands, generally when bird season is open in an area, mammel season is not. So you can't use a rifle when bird hunting there. I talked to a few DNLR guys and this seems to be their reading of laws too, the general rule in Hawaii being you are only supposed to "carry one hunting weapon" at a time, a combination gun or a drilling would count as two weapons.

I could be wrong here, and I want to be wrong here, because I want to have too.

Found just what you're looking for BigK, 1939 vintage Robert Schuler H&H SLE 9,3x74-9.3x74/2&2/3" 20br w/ 22&5/8" Bohler special steel barrels/'Dural' frame. Plenty of features: bushed firing pins, full length rib w/express sights, claw mt. with 4x Zeiss scope, 3 cocking indicators, rolled edge trigger guard,.....At 8.4lb thank God for that recoil pad. Good weight for this caliber as .375 H&H repetier should weigh about 8.5lbs empty. I hope you're sitting down, it's listed at 19,500USD @ Ed Stepanow's Fine German Guns 858-485-6422. Never heard of this Herr before.