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Posted By: Gary Bman AYA - 09/13/09 03:17 PM
Hi all. I'm new to the site and have a question concerning an AYA 12ga double I brought back from Spain in the late 90's. How can I tell if it is a model 2 or model 53? I have been looking on line and I have "Spanish Best", but I really don't know what I have except for a beautiful gun from the late 50's. I also have a Victor Sarasqueta (model 4E I believe) that looks very similar to the Aya. thanks
Posted By: khanh Re: AYA - 09/13/09 04:31 PM
The number 53 has sideclips and the engraving is in a different style more of a Belgian ribbon genre and is hand engraved. If you can get the locks off the parts are gold washed on the 53.
Posted By: Gary Bman Re: AYA - 09/13/09 04:57 PM
I have taken the left side off and have not noticed any gold, I have not tried doing anything on the right side. Thanks
Posted By: James M Re: AYA - 09/13/09 06:05 PM
Post a picture and we'll be able to tell you what model you have. There's Models 1,2 and a 117 which I own,all 3 are SLEs and the only apparent difference is is the engraving.
Jim
Posted By: ChiefShotguns Re: AYA - 09/13/09 09:52 PM
There are major differences between a Model 2 and a Model 53. The Model 2 is essentially their mass produced and very popular "good quality" sidelock gun, the Model 53 is also a sidelock gun, but a "Top Of The Line" one at that. To someone that knows the differences, the distinctions are immense. The Model 2 has been an extremely popular "mass market priced" gun, better than some of their lower grades, and a good field gun, but the Model 53 is in a different league. It is essentially a scaled down "field" version of their Model 56 competition gun. If you didn't see gold plating (washing) on the lock parts you removed, there's no point in taking off the other one, it's not a Model 53.

Can you post photos for a positive identification?
Posted By: Gary Bman Re: AYA - 09/13/09 09:56 PM
I have pictures, but I can't figure out how to post them?
thanks
Posted By: tudurgs Re: AYA - 09/13/09 10:18 PM
For posting photos, try this:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...a13a#Post148935
Posted By: Gary Bman Re: AYA - 09/13/09 10:40 PM
OK,
Here's one of the pics. Thanks for the help.

http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/5855_600x400.jpg
Posted By: Gary Bman Re: AYA - 09/13/09 10:46 PM
That worked so good, here are the other 2 pics of my AYA
Gary


http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/5856_600x400.jpg

http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/5857_600x400.jpg
Posted By: rabbit Re: AYA - 09/13/09 11:47 PM
Cruciform trigger plate in foto #3. No "ears" on the triggerplate on my numba 2 if that proves anything.

jack
Posted By: Gary Bman Re: AYA - 09/14/09 12:49 AM
Jack, I'm new at this...are you saying it does not look to be a number 2? How about the engraving? Is that similar? It is a gun from 1955 or 1958, if that matters. Can't remember which gun is which date(i have them in my notes, but they are put up with the guns at the moment)
Gary
Posted By: rabbit Re: AYA - 09/14/09 01:36 AM
Engraving is similar near as I can tell. Arcaded fences the same. Seven pin and detachable locks the same. Aguirre y Aranzabal engraved on lockplates on my 1980s gun; not on yours. Engraving and physical design can change. I'm saying I don't have a good grasp on features which would distinguish 1 from 2 from 117. Think ChiefSG is correct that it's not a model 53. I've never seen one except in fotos but the engraving on a 53 does appear to have some "definition". Engraving on a No.2 looks like kudzu; it's everywhere but not going anywhere, not really taking your eye to a destination

jack
Posted By: Gary Bman Re: AYA - 09/14/09 02:04 AM
I'd have to agree. I've always thought it a No2, but when I saw a photo of a 53 the other day, I started wondering what I really had. I have a Victor Sarasqueta of the same era. I got them both from an elderly gentelman in southern Spain when I was stationed there. I honostly didn't know anything about them, I just liked the way they looked and I new I couldn't go wrong with the price. thanks for your input.
Gary
Posted By: chopperlump Re: AYA - 09/14/09 02:25 AM
Gary, we'd appreciate it if you'd post some photos of your Victor Sarasqueta 4E. Thanks. Chopperlump
Posted By: Gary Bman Re: AYA - 09/14/09 02:29 AM
chopperlump,
I'll break it out tomorrow after work, now that I know how to post, I'll try to take some decent pics.
Gary
Posted By: James M Re: AYA - 09/14/09 02:58 AM
I pulled out my Model 117 and can confirm yours is not this model. As near as I can tell from the information and photos I have it's a Model 2. I don't know how much variation there has been in the engraving over the years and I'm basically going by the amount of coverage.
Jim
Posted By: ejsxs Re: AYA - 09/14/09 04:21 AM
Gary,

I think it is an AYA Nº51, a pigeon gun (filed flat band, engraving and cruciform trigger plate like mine Nº51). Please check whether it has the Purdey "Third Bite", if it does, sure it is.

EJSXS
Posted By: JayCee Re: AYA - 09/14/09 02:57 PM
Hello Gary,

Here is a 53 for your reference (gold washed innards and all):



JC
Posted By: khanh Re: AYA - 09/14/09 03:36 PM
Gary,

You are getting very good advice from many people here. I would also add that it may be a model produced for the domestic market and not be a familiar model here in the US. It looks nicer than a number 2 and is definitely not a number 53.
Posted By: JayCee Re: AYA - 09/14/09 03:41 PM
Does anyone know why "AYA Jeff" is not posting anymore? He was the absolute expert
on AYAs and had a lot of old catalogues.

JC
Posted By: ejsxs Re: AYA - 09/14/09 07:21 PM
Gary,

Here is my Nº51, born in 1950. Sorry the scroll is not clear enough, as regards to the other features they are the same. My bet is that yours is much younger than mine, because it has the AYA logo in the top lever.



regars,

EJSXS
Posted By: JayCee Re: AYA - 09/14/09 08:04 PM
Here is Gary's:

And here is another photo of EJSXS's 51 that has been re-stocked:

They do look the same.

JC
Posted By: Adam Stinson Re: AYA - 09/14/09 08:50 PM
It's most certainly not a #1, #2, #53, #56, or 117.

The #53 has already been posted.

Here my #56 20-bore.


Here is my old #2 12-bore.


The engraving on the #1 is very close to that of my #56... fine Purdey-style rose and scroll. This is from the AYA website. "The stock and engraving are the same quality as the Nº 1, although special attention is paid to the strength of the grain through the grip, because of the extra stresses of competition."


Whatever model it is, it looks very nice!

Adam
Posted By: James M Re: AYA - 09/14/09 09:23 PM
ejsxs & JayCee:
What makes you think that the gun in question is a Model 53 and not a Model 2? I'm not posting this to give anyone a hard time but it seems to be kind of difficult to tell the different Models apart with AYAs just from pictures. For example: My model 117 was mis-catalogued as a Model 2 before I got it.
Jim
Posted By: rabbit Re: AYA - 09/14/09 09:27 PM
Jim: I think EJ may have tagged it by the cruciform trigger plate which he associates with his No. 51 pigeon gun.

jack
Posted By: Gary Bman Re: AYA - 09/14/09 09:48 PM
I have to say. It seems amazing that it is not a simple matter to determine, but after seeing photos of these other nice sxs's it is hard to say for sure which one it seems more like. What are you refering to as a "cruciform' trigger plate? Are there different pics I could take to help determine what I have?
thanks, Gary
Posted By: ejsxs Re: AYA - 09/14/09 09:56 PM
Jim,

Mine is a Nº51 because the AYA people said so. According to what I can gather, the Nº51 is an intermediate model between the Nº117 and the Nº53. It lacks the engraving, goldwashed locks and sideclips of the Nº53, but includes the Purdeys Third Bite, front articulated trigger and rolled trigger guard. It is my understading that the Nº117 lacks the last three features if I remember correctly from a one owned by JayCee.

Regards
Posted By: Gary Bman Re: AYA - 09/14/09 10:01 PM
ejsxs,
I don't know what to look for a "Purdey third bite"...can you explain? What about double triggers? Are those model specific?
Gary
Posted By: James M Re: AYA - 09/14/09 10:03 PM
Originally Posted By: Gary Bman
I have to say. It seems amazing that it is not a simple matter to determine, but after seeing photos of these other nice sxs's it is hard to say for sure which one it seems more like. What are you refering to as a "cruciform' trigger plate? Are there different pics I could take to help determine what I have?
thanks, Gary

Gary:
Go to your picture No 3 where you have the gun inverted. Note that the forward part of the triggerguard is cruciform(In the shape of a cross) where it's inletted into the bottom of the receiver. This is an uncommon and expensive option so your gun could very well be a Model 53. The one way to find out for sure is to email AYA with the serial # and ask them.
Jim
Posted By: James M Re: AYA - 09/14/09 10:05 PM
Originally Posted By: Gary Bman
ejsxs,
I don't know what to look for a "Purdey third bite"...can you explain? What about double triggers? Are those model specific?
Gary


Gary:
Disassemble the gun and take a picture of the lugs on the bottom of the barrels which secure it to the action and we'll be able to tell you if it has a third lug.
Jim
Posted By: James M Re: AYA - 09/14/09 10:06 PM
Originally Posted By: ejsxs
Jim,

Mine is a Nº51 because the AYA people said so. According to what I can gather, the Nº51 is a Nº53


ejsxs:
Well that's pretty definitive!!
Jim
Posted By: ejsxs Re: AYA - 09/14/09 10:20 PM
Jim,

Sorry for being untidy with my typing, look again to the edited version.

Gary,

the Third Bite is a tooth (or cam if you like) that is placed between the ejectors and is engaged by a cam operated by the top lever.

Regards.

Regards
Posted By: rabbit Re: AYA - 09/14/09 10:23 PM
Gary, if you look forward of the trigger guard on your gun, you'll see that periphery of the trigger plate is in the form of a "T". I may have spoken out of turn by giving this too much emphasis. Presumably several models could have this feature or could have it or not have it depending on age of the gun. As my No. 2 does not have a plate of that shape, it tells me that it's not a No. 2 from the early eighties but of course you already knew that. By the by, I thought the Purdey "third bite" bolted into the wall of the standing breech.

jack
Posted By: JayCee Re: AYA - 09/14/09 10:23 PM
Jim, I have not identified Gary's gun in question as a 53. It definitely is not. That is why I posted the photos of my son's 53, to show the marked differences.

Here are some more photos of the 53 together with what I think to be a 117, with very plain engraving, no articulated front trigger, no rolled trigger guard, etc.





JC
Posted By: khanh Re: AYA - 09/14/09 10:28 PM
Jim,

Gary's gun is most definitely not a Number 53, it lacks the sideclips and the engraving style. I have to check when I get home whether my 53 has the cruciform plate.

Gary,

When you break open the gun the Purdey third bite is the projection that extends from the barrel to engage an opening in the action face, pretty slick.
Posted By: ejsxs Re: AYA - 09/14/09 10:40 PM
Khanh,

Yes both models, Nº51 and 53, have the cruciform plate, at least my two guns do have them. From JayCee´s pictures we can deduce that the Nº117 lack floating sleeved strickers and gas valves while they are present in the other two models.

Regards.
Posted By: Gary Bman Re: AYA - 09/14/09 10:48 PM
Jim,
AYA lugs...2 I presume

http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/5870_600x400.jpg
Posted By: JayCee Re: AYA - 09/14/09 11:45 PM
Here is a photo that may be useful to those with better eyesight than I.

Apparently the 53 and the 117 have both cruciform plates:



JC
Posted By: Gary Bman Re: AYA - 09/15/09 12:13 AM
All,
here are the AYA and VS together. Thanks to all, this has been very informative!
Gary
http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/5872_600x400.jpg
http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/5873_600x400.jpg
http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/5874_600x400.jpg
Posted By: khanh Re: AYA - 09/15/09 12:17 AM
No, thank you Gary for a great excuse to pull my toys out of the vault. This thread has been very informative. Those are some beautiful guns. How did you come by them?
Posted By: James M Re: AYA - 09/15/09 12:32 AM
This IMO has been one of the finest "Group Efforts" in helping a fellow collector out. Perhaps we should forward this information to AYA and they could put out an identification bulletin. As I state earlier my own AYA was mis-identified when I located it and I had to come up with evidence to convince the owner that it wasn't in fact a Model 2.
I'm still tring to figure out what the actual differences are between a Model 2 and a Model 117 other than engraving and plainer wood? The are both true SLEs and the quality seem to be the same.
Jim
Posted By: Gary Bman Re: AYA - 09/15/09 12:50 AM
Khanh,
I met a gent from Jerez, Spain through my wife's uncle(she is Spanish) while I was stationed in Rota, Spain 1995-2001. His name was Jose Caballero Navarra. He is apparently connected to inventing the Radio control airplane motors. He was quite a traveled character and he offered the pair to me 'cause as he said he was getting too old to use them and thought they'd enjoy the US!! I fell guilty that I am not much of a bird hunter and have not used them. I always imagined that they would end up in a South Dakota pheasant hunters' hands. I do admire them though!
Gary
Posted By: khanh Re: AYA - 09/15/09 01:23 AM
Gary,

Great story. They are quite nice and would do well in South Dakota. I still think that the AYA was made for the domestic market. I was in Barcelona in the days of the Peseta and wandered into an Ameria and found a treasure trove for quite a reasonable price, a few found their way home about two months later after the import permit was approved by the ATF
Posted By: Gary Bman Re: AYA - 09/21/09 08:21 PM
ESJSXS,
you are correct. After e-mailing AYA with the serial number I have a reply today that said it is a model 51. Now, is that considered more desireable than a model 2 when it comes to re-sale?? Thanks,
Gary
Posted By: ejsxs Re: AYA - 09/21/09 10:27 PM
Gary,

To the best of my knowledge Model Nº51 was descontinued before the 1983-88 DIARM fiasco, when AYA was almost lost. As I mentioned earlier Model Nº51 was conceived as a middle range SL pigeon gun, below models 53 and 56 that are still in production. It is quite well done and robust, usually tips the scales at 7 lb, better for standing than carrying. IMO, if we take engraving aside, it should be regarded in the same level than Model Nº2, the latter being a 1/2 lb lighter. Resale prices in Chile are around US$2000 for a Nº51 and US$3000 for a Nº2.

Jim,

AYA Nº2 and Nº117 are quite different in purpose and quality. Model Nº2 is the most succesful AYA gun, designed as an upland sidelock, it is still in production and likely to stay there as long as AYA endures. Model 117, now discontinued, was the lowest SL pigeon gun, without sleeved strikers, lacks articulated trigger and no gas valves nor beaded trigger guard. All features present in the Nº2, plus better wood and engraving. Being a pigeon gun, Nº117 has a Purdey third bite if memory serves me well.

Regards,

EJSXS
Posted By: Gary Bman Re: AYA - 09/21/09 11:22 PM
Thanks. I did a search for the number 51 and do not find any for sale. There always seem to be plenty of the number 2's. That is why I was wondering if the 51 was not more desireable, as maybe there were'nt as many out there.
Gary
Posted By: Vol423 Re: AYA - 09/22/09 01:22 AM
I too have a No 51, according to the serial number and AYA's quick reply. They advised me that it is lower quality that a No 2. I bought it from Paul Crosnoe for a customer but it turned out to have factory left hand dimensions so the customer couldn't use it. I'm a southpaw so I kept it for myself. My gun has a short beavertail fore end which I generally don't like, but this gun is growing on me because I don't miss much with it.
Posted By: ejsxs Re: AYA - 09/22/09 02:38 AM
Gary,

My guess is that Model Nº51 was mostly exported to Iberian countries where pigeon shooting was more common and money was less abundant. By the seventies Belgian and Italian over/unders were removing the Spanish side-by-sides from the clay and pigeon grounds in most Southern countries in Europe and the Americas. I use my Nº51 mostly on feral pigeons and goes many more times to the field than my bespoke Nº53.

Regards.

EJSXS
Posted By: gjw Re: AYA - 09/22/09 08:15 AM
Hi Gary, the easy way to find out what model your AyA is to e-mail them. All they need is the SN and they will tell you what you want to know. They are very good at answering e-mails and you should have an answer within a day.

http://www.aya-fineguns.com/contacto.php

Good luck!!

Greg
Posted By: JayCee Re: AYA - 09/22/09 06:26 PM
Greg, Greg, do read above. He already done it.

JC
Posted By: Birdog Re: AYA - 09/26/09 06:44 PM
Have to second Jim's "Group Effort" comment.
I have a couple of Model # 117, at least that is the way they were listed, as per Bill Moore's (WLM) receipt.
The Nº. 117 Gun's have gas vents, cocking indicators,bushed firing pins, third bite, articulated trigger, 28 & 30 inch chopper lump barrels and straight hand straight grained stock.

Aguirre y Aranzabal Model No. 117.

Posted By: Birdog Re: AYA - 09/26/09 06:53 PM
We have Nº.'s 56, 53 etc. anyone have a "Senior" they care to share ?
Posted By: gjw Re: AYA - 09/27/09 03:36 PM
Originally Posted By: JayCee
Greg, Greg, do read above. He already done it.

JC


Never mind, guess I missed it!!!

Greg
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