Today I was at the local gun shop to pick up supplies. He had a nice Model 12 for sale that had WS-1 stamped on the barrel. It had a milled rib. When I asked what the barrel lengths was, he got out a tape and when we measured it, it was 24". The gun looked original. But I couldn't figure out the 24" barrels. Anyone ever seen one? Could it be a special order. I didn't really look at the serial numbers that closely, but I seem to recall when I glanced at them it was 779,xxx something. What do you guys think?

Was that the inside measurement?

Made in late '38 or early '39 depending on the last three numbers.

Might have been cut for a Cutts. Seems to me that 90% of that era guns seem to have Cutts. I know that is well above the real number. When I see a short barrel gun like that I think of a Cutts gun that has been returned to non Cutts status.

I forgot to mention, it is a 20 gauge. Yes, we measured down to where the barrel end of the barrel is inside the receiver (without taking the barrel off. It hasn't been cut. But the rib is probably a Simmons rib, although it is not stamped Simmons on the side of it. The vented rib has the square posts milled to the barrel and when you look down the muzzle end of the rib, the rib looks like it slides down over the posts. So, I am pretty sure it is a Simmons rib. But, I think it is a special order 24" barrel that came with no rib and was later sent to Simmons to have a rib put on it. It is a nice gun in nice shape. The wood is in nice shape, but is not high grade at all. He is asking $1500.00 for it.

No offense intended, but I don't know about it being a true Cutts gun. A true Cutts- Model 12 (from what I always understood) is not supposed to have any choke markings stamped on the barrel. That is one of the ways you know it is a true Cutts gun. This one (looks like it) has the original WS-1 stamp on the barrel. And I don't know why someone around here would change a Cutts gun. Model 12s with Cutts around here right now are a really hot item in this area. It is really odd. But a nice gun. I am so tempted.

Cutts Compensator's were made by Lyman and sold after market by gun shops...the barrels of the recipient guns were usually not marked with anything....just a local gun shop installation, saw and add......Lyman did a great marketing job here and many shooters had these things added...to all kinds of guns....just think how many fine barrels were ruined.....so your model 12 probably has been cut and then re-cut to remove the Cutts Compensator.....or it is a mail order short barrel from Winchester.........Poly choke was the after market competitor of Cutts....and just as junky....

Is the choke still a true Winchester WS-1 in profile and length.

BTW, many WS-1 gun had a Cutts attached after market. God knows why?!!!!

A Winchester "factory" Cutts installation is supposed to be on a barrel turned with an integral, sword-hilt-like shoulder against which the Cutts seats and gun marked only "SKEET" mag tube and receiver. Is that right, Don?

jack

The Flange-barrel Cutts Model 12s never came with a rib. The small-bore Model 12s were only offered with plain barrels or solid rib barrels until the introduction of the "Winchester Special Ventilated Rib", read that Simmons Rib, around 1954.

The Winchester Model 12, with a Cutts Compensator was the gun for Skeet Shooting for over two decades. They continued to be used on the Remington Model 1100's when they first started to displace the Model 12 as the Skeet gun of choice.

The "Cutts" was not a fad or fashion statement kind of item. It was put on so many Model 12 Skeet guns for a very good reason. It Worked!
It had three advantages over basic pump guns of the era. It added weight to the end of the barrel, aiding a smooth swing and assisting follow through. It did in fact mitigate a good deal of recoil, both because of its weight and because of the vents that directed gases both up and down, (at the cost of a few ear drums). It also, because of its bulbous nature, allowed the end of the barrel to stand out more clearly in one's peripheral vision. Making it easier for the brain to position it for the shot while one's main focus was (and always should be), on the target.
As the Automatics gained favor in Skeet, one of its advantages, lower recoil, became moot. As the change to a mounted gun and sustained lead technique became prevalent, its other advantages became less important as well. The automatics also were a little more front heavy than the Model 12's.
Then came the move to over/unders and eventually, tubed Skeet sets, pushing the Model 12's with Cutts into the history books.

The conventional wisdom, as stated above, about true Factory Cutts guns having no choke markings, may or may not be true. Winchester sent many Model 12s, to Lyman to have the Cutts attached. Some sources claim that all of the Model 12 Cutts were attached by Lyman. If so, I'm not sure what a Factory Cutts is. Its a little like the "factory" ribs that were really done by Simmons.

That would be why mine has a plain barrel. Hot item in Buckeyeland? Not around here.

jack

Mike the Bear--well stated!! I have a Cutts on a first year M-37S--it is a skeet killing machine! Remember the era of "muzzle bandages." Don't need one with a Cutts.

Not quite like the Simmons rib in that turning the flange on the barrel indicates Winchester's intention to produce a Cutts-specific barrel. I doubt if any plain barrel "skeets" went to dealers without the steam whistle so it's factory even IF Lyman was a contract installer. The analogy is screw choking. Lots of aftermarket tubes in muzzles threaded by the manufacturer of the guns and lots of fixed choke guns with the "modification". The irony: the fiddled WS- guns are sought after; the "factory" SKEETS not particuarly desirable.

jack

Only way to know is to measure the chokes to see if they are WS1. If not, and is a true cylinder, then you can bet the farm on a cut barrel. If they are still WS1 it gets much more interesting as a oddity. Want to borrow my bore micrometer?

KYJon,
Not sure if that will work as the choke is essentially removed in either case since the completed barrel with the Cutts and Skeet choke is the same length as the WS-1 without the Cutts. I have both and they are the same length.

WS1 should be a .005 choke. If the barrel has no choke in the last 2-3" of the barrel it has been cut or reamed out, but why bother doing that?. If there is .005 choke in the barrel I would be say it is an original. Being 24" is not a deal killer to me for factory made. I shot a borrowed Model 12 that the factory had chrome plated for a rich shooter. Never say never, but you can say odd, until you know for sure.

If it had been say a 26" barrel that they cut to 25" to add a Cutts and then cut again to remove all traces of the Cutts to make it 24", add a rib and refinish the gun at that time I would expect it to be a true cylinder. A 24" factory WS 1 barrel would be an oddity but I know Winchester would make anything if you knew the right person and had money. My father had them make a solid rib 28 ga. model 12 for me after they had refused to make one for several years. He found the right person and got them to do it. Hunting with a fellow who had ordered two model 21's I am sure made it easier to find the right person. Wonder who ever got those guns? Wish I did.

I know what you mean. I never cared for them either. One of the best skeet shooters at our club shoots a Model 12 with a Cutts. He breaks his doubles so fast I don't know how he does it. He and another guy (who also shoots with a Cutts), along with a third guy won our winter skeet league last year. A couple of other guys shoot with Cutts on their Model 12s. I have a 16 gauge/solid rib Model 12 with knock out gorgeous wood (and the older tiny forearm) that has the old Weaver screw in choke system. I put a leather covered pad on it and guys have been begging me to sell it. One of the local dealers has a Model 12- 12 gauge barrel/forearm only with a Cutts on it with a $350.00 price tag laying on the back of a shelf in his store. If someone sees it, it won't be there long. For some reason they seem to have caught on around here the past few years.

This is pretty simple to figure out because the gun is stamped WS1.

I have never seen a genuine special order 24" M-12 barrel. But if this is "real" the bore mic will demonstrate it clearly. WS1 was a proprietary design with constriction followed by flare at the muzzle. In a 20 WS1 constriction usually amounts to about .003 or so, maybe .004. I have not measured one (20 gauge) at .005.

If the barrel was orignally 26" (most likely) there will be no flare following constriction. Indeed, there will not likely be much constriction at all.

Sam

You got it, Sam. I bet there is no flare.

Mike, think again. If a barrel with Cutts and 26" overall length has the Cutts removed, the barrel will be about 19 or 20 inches long. Measuring the bore is the only way to identify the originality of a WS1 barrel. Even so, the gun is not going to be worth the ridiculous asking price.

I know of a an original Model 12 skeet gun with a 24" barrel. I've shot it. It's a 12ga. gun. No BS. For real. They exist.

If the Mdl 12 has a factory rib there will be a proof mark just to the left (as I recall) of the rib close to where the barrel attaches to the receiver. In the office now but I can check later if you want to know for sure. The plain barrel mdl 12s had the proof mark on top of the barrel, that proof mark will be covered up if a rib was installed other than at the Winchester factory. There were some factory authorized Simmons ribs as I understand it. I have seen Simmons ribs on Mdl 12s that had the offset proof mark. Of course there could have been a factory rib removed and then replaced with a Simmons.

In the mid-50's our USAF skeet range had all Model 12s, plain barrels with Cutts. Around 1959, they started sending them off to Simmons using Local Purchase funds to have ribs put on. This seemed to catch on quickly so that by the early 60's many of the Air Force bases had vent ribs on their Mod 12s.

Measure the inside barrel diameter and chokes. WS1 was a bell choke, one that actually had a reverse taper optimized for 21 yard skeet targets. I've never heard of a factory 24" barrel, especially on a skeet gun, but it's possible as a custom option. Measuring the barrel and chokes will tell the tale.

My guess is that the barrel is bobbed, and I'll likewise bett that the barrel choke is a true cylinder.

We are now pretty sure that this gun is turning out to be original. According to Winchester, (in one of their books that mentions them) there were a few of these made. I am going to have to get the serial number if the gun is still around, but most of the guys in this area think the gun is original.

A 700,000 range 20 gauge Model 12 with a vent rib is not "original" in any stretch. First vent ribs were 1954. The 20 gauge was never made with a "milled" rib post either. The gun in question is not worth anywhere near the $1500 asking price. On another point, anyone can cut a flare into the end of a cut barrel. It is quite hard, however, to put a few thousandths of choke behind the flare on a cut barrel. I would guess that the locals who think the gun is an original 24" gun have never seen a bore micrometer, or spent $1500 on a shotgun.

I have two of the Cutts 12ga's. The older one, 10362xx is near new, no rib, bbl marked cyl, and no "skeet" stamped on it. The bbl has most certainly NOT been refinished so I presume that the Cutts is one of the factory sponsored Lyman fixtures.
The other one, 11098xx is beyond question factory with the flanged bbl, no rib, no choke marking of any kind, and "skeet" stanped under the serial on the action only.

I have not measured the bbls on either w/o the Cutts tube on so I can't say exactly, but just guessing where the bbls ends would make them both around 22" (from the bolt face).

Not sure if this is of any use to anyone, but JIC

WtS

They are neither for sale

10662XX plain barrel 12 is marked SKEET under the serial on the receiver. Serial matches on the mag tube; top rear of barrel and receiver both have the Winnie proof in an oval. There is no choke mark on the barrel anywhere and there NEVER was. Cutts comp. and collet choke mech butt to a flange turned on the barrel. End of Cutts with the collet run down to full choke to bolt face: 27 3/8". Total length Cutts comp. and choke collet: 5 3/4". Subtracting steam whistle from total: 21 5/8". Overlap of compensator on barrel in front of flange: 9/16". Total barrel length: 22 3/16". Total effective length of the whole lashup for swing wgt. and all that kinda stuff is as above 27+". I also have a later '41 m12 with an overbore (roughly 10 ga.) Barnes barrel and vent rib on 12 chamber and Colonial Arms choke tubes. Got a cheap Sile Monte Carlo on the back. Swings a lot easier than the official plain barrel model from the early 30's. I am married to this one for the one single thing about a gun that brings the most satisfaction: I'm a consistently good shot with it. I have the other one to admire the crotch walnetto and laugh to myself every time the "ribbing" starts about Winny and AfterWinny cause whether this "factory skeet" is worth anything or not, it is unquestionably "factory". How ya like them fish?

jack

W the S: I'm going to check to see if I still have a photo of the catalog copy for the plain barrel skeets with the sword hilt up front. May be on Photobucket. I'll post if I find.

jack

Can't find the catalog page but here's the gun. Second foto shows the flange behind the Cutts:

Still better looking than the Weaver choke tube system on the end of my 16 gauge Model 12. What's especially painful is that mine was a nickel steel barrel with a solid rib and the barrel was cut to fit the Weaver system. @#$%&*!!!

Sweet. Way nicer than the flanged one I have. I have one of the adjustable choke tubes but have never used it. I use the gun to shoot trap with a .740 tube in it. I'll have to try the collet toy one of these days.

WtS

My 16 gauge Model 12 has a Stainless Steel barrel(marked FULL) with a solid rib that was cut for a Poly Choke! However, it works very well.

There is more than one sort of needle in the haystack. So many Winchester m12 collectors are on guard against aftermarket mods and adulterated and composed guns in the WS-1,WS-2 line that they have no use for a steam-whistle gun, no matter how minty, that is exactly as Winchester intended it to be. Looks to me like an entry point for those who want to follow the perennial admonition to buy low and wait. This kind of "on the outside looking in" luck has come to me at least twice. I also have a Flues 4e with a swamped rib and short rib ramps in the French mode. It's mentioned and illustrated in Walt Snyder's Ithaca from the day dot book. When I queried Walt about desirability, he told me that it's not common but "nobody knows about it." Apparently rarity is a nonstarter as a collector parameter unless it's been arificially induced by remuddling of a popular and well-known variant.