Pieper was known for innovation and mechanization. He and his son held many patents. A friend asked about Pieper sidelocks. In all honesty, I have seen only a few examples. I went over the Pieper catalogs. By and large, they produced hammer guns and boxlocks. However, they also offered sidelock.

Does any one here own a Pieper sidelock?

A very early side cocker. I suppose it might be called a sidelock of sorts.


An 1888 ad showing a Diana sidelock.


An Anciens Etablissements Pieper 2000 series



An Anciens Etablissements Bayard 410-412-415 series. I do not believe this is a true sidelock, but rather a sideplate. This gun has 2 sets of barrels. One of which has had claw mounts added to the cape gun set.



According to the catalogs, they made a Pigeon grade that was highly engraved. But I have never seen one.

Pete

I have three sidelock Bayard/Pieper shotguns. They are all hammerguns, all three are different. I think they are greast guns for the money. One of them has about every locking system known to man, sideclips, double underlugs, greener cross bolt, and a third bite.
I also bought an odd Bayard Pieper boxlock at the vintagers, it has a toplever locking system I have never seen before. There are pictures of it on the Gournet website http://www.gournetusa.com/forum/
it is the gun pictured at the bottom of the thread titled "Bayard 12 x 65 hammergun" in the Belgian gun forum. If anyone has seen one, owns one or can tell me more, I would love to hear about it.
It looks like a good idea...?

Here is a Henri Pieper Diana sidelock with Boston damascus barrels 1888.


Pete

Why do you think this one is not a sidelock. It looks to have all the pins + tumbler axle showing for a Bar-Action SL to me.

Miller,

Here is a Pieper boxlock of the same vintage.




What do you think?

Pete

Just thought you might like to see, here is one that I did some work on a couple of years ago recase/ reblue,..same gun but a higher grade, had very fine checkering as well as a SBP

Best

CJ

Yer the only guy I know that can give a German SxS class.

CJO,

Thanks for posting that. A wonderfully engraved Belgian gun. I have never seen a close-up of that lock up before. Very interesting. I will have to go through the Pieper patents and see if he invented it.

Pete

Pete; On the gun with plates I see the tumbler axle, through the plate, totally behind the rear frame wall with its Gold bar cocking indicator. I see several other pins which could account fot the sears & bridle all attached to the plate.

On the Boxframe gun I cannot make out the tumbler axles at all. I see what I take to be the sear pin near bottom rear of frame. How is the tumbler held on this gun, does it mount to the trigger plate, or have short buil-on axles which set in frame recesses, doesn't appear to come through side walls.

Without seeing the plate removed it is of course hard to be positive, but it certainly has an external appearence of a side lock. The rear frame wall on this one appears to be vertical, while the boxlock has a decided step, protruding back at the top, definitely not just plates added to the same frame.

I have a 16ga boxlock that would fall in between those two grades....the only mark to identify the maker is the Bayard knight on horseback stamped on the side of one of the barrel lumps...

Hi again,
The gun CJO posted is the same lock up as the one I got at the Vintagers. mine doesnt have anywhere near as much engraving and is missing the cocking indicators as well.
There is a picture of one like it in the old reprint of the 1911 ALFA catalog with the indicators but no engraving.
I would love to know more about the history of the lock up, I thought it was interestig enough to buy a gun to have a sample.
Sorry Joe these are Belgian not German other than for a few years and those not willing.

Sorry I thought Belgium was in Germany

Henri Pieper was born in 1840 to Heinrich Pieper & Elisabeth Blesse or Blaise in Soest Westphalia. Today Soest is in Germany. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soest,_Germany

Henri filed at least 69 patents. Many were filed in multiple countries. They included such diverse subjects as a lamp wick holder, incandescent bulb holder, electric gun, magazine clip, monobloc barrels, and much more.

Henri registered the Bayard trade name and mark on June 9, 1892.





In 1881 he filed the 1st patent for a monobloc, which would become his Diana shotgun.






He filed 3 patents in quick succession that dealt with lock up, they are
Feb 28 1891 - 93831;
Apr 30 1891 - 94490;
Dec 15 1891 - 96980.
The patent numbers are for Belgian patents. I do not know if any of them are for the lock up in question.

In 1892 he released the modified Diana, also a monoblock, which does not have this lock up.


Pete

Pete a buddy of mine bought an old 20ga hardware hammer gun with barrels that look exactly like the twist/steel ones pictured above...the barrels appear to be in really nice condition.

He fired a few dove loads out of it...now it's off face.

Are those old guns safe to shoot or are they the cheap guns that Greener warned about ?

Joe,

Pieper did do a lot of price point guns for export. So, I would never say he did not make some low end guns.

On the whole, however, Pieper did not produce the junk guns that every one was concerned with back then. Those were guns where the chemise was not removed, the chambers were not correct, they were fake damascus, they faked proof marks, the list goes on. Very few of those guns have survived.

Sherman Bell just published on article on laminated / twist barrels. Once again, he used modern proof loads. Nothing came flying apart. Take that for what you will.

Pete

Note in the pics Pete supplied that on the "Original Diana" there is a decided step down to the tube at forward end of breech piece (mono-block) while there is no such step on the "Modified Diana". Pieper's original patent called for the breech piece to be bored on a slight internal taper, with the tubes having a matching taper being inserted from the rear, thus the step down. The chamber was thus cut entirely in the interior of the tube.

On the Modified Diana design the breech piece was bored & threaded "part way" through from the front. The tube was turned & threaded to match with a shoulder to butt up against the front of the breech piece & then screwed in from the front. The chamber was thus cut partially in the breech piece & partially in the tube with the od of the tube shoulder blending with the breech piece.

Nota Bene (note well) the steel breech piece in the patent drawing. It is "All" machined from "One(1)" piece of steel. As far as I am aware of Pieper never used the term "Mono-Block" calling it simply his one piece steel breech, but that is the derivative of the word. Cutting off the breech section of a bbl assembly consisting of 3-4 parts brazed together "Does Not a Mono-Block Make". If you don't like the term Sleeving simply call it re-tubing, but it is not a mono-block unless it was originally machined as one piece.

Just joined and this is my first post. I noticed the thread on Piepers and, as I have three, looked a little more closely. The gun CJO posted is actually one of mine. I was lucky enough to have CJO do some beautiful restoration work on the gun. I also have a 16 bore boxlock with the same lockup but not quite as high a grade. Both these guns have chopperlump barrels. As well I have a 12 bore sidelock Diana fine damascus with the original 1881 monoblock patent noted on the rib. It was subjected at some point in time to a hideous restock. I haven't got around to fixing that yet. If there is any interest I'll take some pictures and figure out how to post them.

canvasback,

Welcome! Glad you decided to join in That is a great gun you have there.
We would love to see pictures of your guns. Have you figured out if that lockup is a Pieper patent?

This will get you started on the images:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...ge=1#Post148935

I know that the Diana's came in various grades. Some were very plain. I have "heard" of one that had "Henri Pieper" woven into the damascus, but have never seen it.

Pete

would love to see some pics....dont mean to hijack this thread but I
also have some questions...when the action is open on these boxlocks does the lever stay locked to the right until the action is closed or does it come back to center if released???? mine does not stay to the right and was wondering if that is the way they were made or if there is a worn out part???

mine also has just the slightest up/down play with the forend off...what is the best way to tighten this type of lockup???

thanks

Thanks for the welcome Pete. I have not yet figured out if the lock up is a Pieper patent but to be honest, I haven't researched it a great deal. There is a contributor to the littlegun website who has written a history of the Pieper companies but as it is only in French I have not bought it yet. Need to work on my translating abilities. I am also aware of the "Henri Pieper" damascus gun and have seen a photo of it but do not remember where on the web I found it. Quite unbelieveable! If I find it again I'll try to get a link to it or post it here.

I'll get some photos of my other guns up in the next few days. Thanks for the link on posting photos.

Gunut - On both of mine the top level stays to the right when opened and only comes back towards the centre when the action is closed. I suspect something is not quite working properly on yours.

As to you question about the vertical play with the forend off....not qualified to answer.

canvasback,
good to have you join us...and thanks for the information...Ill have to get that lever lock looked into....

Very good. I have the Pieper book. It is excellent, a fascinating read. A great deal of information about the family. Some tables of the various models produced. The problem is that Pieper and the resulting company was so prolific, the book could be 3x longer and still only touch the surface. Just going through all the Pieper patents would be a worthwhile effort for a book. Perhaps some day it will be translated.

Pete

Gunut;
Do you have to hold the lever over while closing the gun? If so I would guess a part is either missing or broken. There are a lot of doubles on which the lever does return to center with no latch, but upon closing the lever is cammed to the right by the bolt. I would not say a top lever gun has never been built that "Requires" holding over the lever, but they are few & far between.

PeteM-Here's my Modified Diana:

2-piper;
Dont have to hold the lever to the right when closing the gun, as the lever will move to the right when the action is closeing. but I hold the lever to the right anyhow.....
Have a Sterlingworth that the lever would not latch to the right...thought the latch operating spring was just missing but it was there...Dennis Potter made a new latch peice for the gun....its worked fine for years now...Not real expensive either...
Hope this gun is as easy of a fix...and not a real complicated [expensive] undertaking....

Gunut;
On the Sterlingworth you could not close the gun without moving the lever over to the right could you. If this gun cams the lever over, chances are it was never made with a latch. I currently have three doubles which never had a latch, one English, J P Clabrough, one German J P Sauer, & an early American Lefever Arms Co with the side pivot lever. All of these were designed to cam back the bolt upon closing & none ever had a latch. I have owned others in the past as well.
If you tried to close that Sterlingworth without holding over the lever you would have simply rammed the rib extension down atop the bolting finger & been unable to close it. That needed fixed, this one probably doesn't.

2-piper,
Now that I think back...you are right about the sterlingworth..if I did not hold the lever to the right when closeing all I just got was a very disconcerting thunk...

Here are some photos of my Pieper sidelock. Sorry the photos aren't better. I'm a novice at photography. They'll get better!


[img][/img]

It would probably help if I had even cleaned the gun but I haven't touched it yet.







As I mentioned before it has a hideous stock on it. The chequering is a spectacular...I don't know....7 or 8 lines per inch. I'm still trying to figure out what to do with it.

canvasback,

Thanks. Nice to see a sidelock diana. In the 1st picture, what is that gold numbering about?

garyg,

A "wholesale price list"? Don't see those every day for Belgian guns. Nice find.

Pete

Hi Pete

The gold lettering is a type of cocking indicator. When both barrels are cocked the gold line points to the "L". When the first barrel is fired, it moves halfway to the "D". When the second is fired, it moves the rest of the way. BTW, it's on both sides of the receiver.

James

Pete,
That is from a book titled "wholesale price list of fishing tackle and hunting outfits" put out by the H.H.Knife company,New York.

I dont know if they sold direct to the public or not.

James,

I have never heard of an indicator like this one before. Can't figure out what the L & D stand for. You should send your pictures to Alain at LittleGun. I am sure he will end up posting them under the Pieper history / examples.

Speaking of Belgium. My friend encouraged me to start this thread. He is taking great joy in seeing all these Pieper guns that do not surface very much even in Belgium.

Pete

Pete

I have assumed the L and the D are initials from french words. Just haven't figured the words out yet. I'll send some pictures to Alain and see what he can tell us.

I know I'm Canadian and this language thing is supposed, by government decree, to be second nature to all of us up here but I don't seem to be very good at getting with the Liberal/left wing plan.

James & Pete

Since the rib inscription is in English, I would venture to say that the "L" is for loaded and the "D" is for discharged

JMHO

CJ

Claudio - Just what I needed....some common sense! I was too busy thinking about what french word would fit to make the connection to the english on the rib. Thanks. I have already sent Alain a message on the subject but I strongly suspect you are correct. Thanks.

James

Pete

Pete-Can you help me with the proofmarks on the Modified Diana that I posted? I've tried to decipher them using the charts but I'm not doing too well. Even just a ballpark date would help. Tell your friend, my Pieper hammergun is a very good gun.

Hammergun,

I will do my best. We know it has to be 1892 or later because it is a modified diana. So, the rest is elimination. It does not have the diamond / rhombus with the gauge markings, they started using that in 1898. I don't see any indication of nitro proofing.

A lot of the other marks are the old fashion controller of proof marks, for which we have no information. Some of the other marks, eg N in circle, may be from the Pieper factory, indicating job codes or quality control.

How's a 6 year time span, 1892-1898? I have seen ads for the modified diana that were much later, so this is a relatively early gun. I have never seen a serial number list for these guns.

For the diana and modified diana guns, you can be sure the damascus was produced at Pieper's "Brazil works" barrel shop. Probably by some of the people in this picture.



Pete

Thanks Pete. That helps alot.

Just out of curiosity, how is "Pieper" pronounced?
I have been told it is pronounced "Piper" and also I was told it was pronounced "Peeper", Which is correct.

Pete

It believe it should be pronounce "Peep ā". "Peeper" would have been correct in Soest where Henri Pieper was born.

For an interesting audio engine:
http://public.research.att.com/~ttsweb/tts/demo.php

Pete