I dont usually post guns like this but these are very unusual. http://www.jaquas.com/gunlist/Details.as...=&NewUsed=#

Sure there must be A.Froncotte marks somewhere on the guns.

WOW !!!

They are a huge step up quality-wise from the mundane BRNO SxS shotguns that I've seen recently.

This gun is very nice.
I have one gun, it loks like yours. It is 16 gauge.
Don't no the maker of mine.
Can you put some more pictures of proof marks of this gun.

Thanks.

Sorry Mario I dont have the guns they were on a gunshops website.

Geno have it the right way,Francotte make them. Here is one on a German site:http://www.jagdwaffen-strank.de/en/enindex2.rxml

Gettemans, I saw pair of Lebeau-Courally guns at site you gave and for 22,500 Euros. Do you know details?

http://www.jagdwaffen-strank.de/en/enindex2.rxml
I think I recall Forgeron being sourced by the Weipert craftsmen for components and I'm sure many other Belgian craftsmen.

Is it this one?




Not a Czech gun but these early BuHags(a conglomerate, or sub to a conglomerate, similar to Lovena) are the deal of the show and I know I've informed some and may be lashing a dead horse. I shoot one all the time and the early ones say up and into the 1960s are composed of pre-WWII(during) components and potentially made by pre-WWII craftsmen or their apprentices:

With the "Pipe" style side frame reinforcement, the frame may have been sourced from Merkel components and the overhanging scears are pretty robust.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Geno, no I not have the details about it. Strank not mention the Mod so I think it is a special order. He not mention the S.N. so we dont know it it is a true pair or a composed pair. In my opinion it is a true pair, because I think it is a special order and made under Verrees name.I think a full condition rapport can clear all your questions but Stank not answers mails in english but you can try.
Marc.

Images from Gettemans:





Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Wow! It's something special!

Fine guns, Gettemans & Raimey, before 3 months raimey said to my post that my gun is probably from Czech, here is the pictures.

[img]http://s841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/mario61/[/img] Thanks Raimey for trying.

And I'm still searching and continually puzzled as to the other non-Belgian marks.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I am reading the posts almost every day. In CROATIA we will say that You are the true emperor of the forums.

Mario 16-65:

At first reading I thought the "You" to be plural, not singular, and reference the BBS, which is an excellent source of info, sounding board and overall great group of folks. But by no means am I a king or emperor of any forum but just one of the many indians reading, researching and writing behind may of the Chiefs that have come before me.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey...can you tell me any more about the side plated box lock with the carved stock you posted on page 1 of this thread? Is there a link with more photos? Thanks in advance, Jeff S.

Jeff, it's GETTEMANS (Belgium) photos.

Jeff:

Geno is correct and it is Marc's gun and he should be along with additional info. He was kind enough to send the pics to be and I posted most of them. I've noted in my notes that Emil Schlegelmilch had a few examples with the carved stock but I don't think he to be a master stocker and I think this example to have Bohemian features from the craftsmen at Weipert.

Here's an additional stock pic:



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, I guess it's French style stock and it could be made in Belgium also. For Emil Schlegelmilch this kind of stock could come in nightmare only

That's a good one Geno and my chuckle for the day. Apparently he had at least 2 nightmares!!!! Yes, Belgium is a choice also. Would you say it has attributes like a Swan's neck?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Interesting mix of proofmarks above, Raimey. Some are clearly Belgian, but some Belgian marks missing, and others not Belgian. Another of those mysteries.

Jeff:

Marc only had stored the images and Mr. Hallquist may know the origin of the double.

Mr. Brown:

Truly a mystery and I'm guessing some sort marks from Bulgaria/Romania/Yugo. etc. And as I stated before, still searching.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The Belgian proofs are post 1924. The date code (1927) does not match the controller of proof for dating (1937-1964). I agree with Larry, many marks are missing....

Some of those other marks appear rather amateurish.

Gaier talks about stock carving, but the only Belgian guns I have seen with it were for export or are high end guns in museums. This one is much nicer than those cheap export klunkers. Checkpiece, sling swivels, 65mm 16ga, it was certainly meant for the European market.

Pete

Stock for Darne. Stocker Cristiane Eno (or something like this), France.

Jeff: The above was a Belgian double that sold a few years back and for now there isn't anymore info.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

From the 1st post, http://www.gunsinternational.com/Adolf-Machac-A-Brno-Matched-Pair.cfm?gun_id=100107480 , anyone know Jaqua well enough to acquire some pics of the proofmarks or is a cold call in order or proofmark pics of a $11k U.S. of A. pair?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The photo is a Faukner, Prague, SLE 12. I've also seen a fine 16 by Faukner which is a box lock with small side plates in the form of a crown. The image above reminded me of that gun.

Terry:
Do you own the example? I really like stock with the subtle cheekpiece.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I was thumbing thru some notes looking for something else of course and thought the following info might interest a few. Post WWII, Commissioner Adolf Machac of Brno was established as the head of a management entity to utilize existing stock of the Weipert firms Josef Bartl, Gustav Bittner, Wenzel Morgenstern, Gustav Fükert, Wenzel Morgenstern, Norbert Schmidl, Rudolf Thiele and others. The makers were to take the existing stock and complete the construction of as many weapons as possible. I'm sure they could also fabricate some additional components or possibly source some. Afterward the machines were being transferred and transformed to meet the needs of the mining industry. This would be a far cry from the time in 1887 when the consortium of Bittner, Fükert and Morgenstern & Schmidl combined forces to fulfill the requirements of a weapons order from Steyr in Austria. Anyway, the longarms of question are very similar to a Gustav Fükert No. 60, which was offered with a Greener safety. J. Nowotny/Novotny of Praze offered a similar Model "Second to None" with either Krupp or Kilby tubes, with a surcharge over Krupp. So Adolf Machac had the components and craftsmen at his disposal and I suspect this would go a long way in explaining the pair. Frantisek Faukner of Praze had an sister named Marie Fauknerova, both being children of master gunsmith Jan Faukner, who married Antonin Machac in 1877. Antonin Machac was either the father or grandfather of Adolf Machac, if I have my family ties correct.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Interesting stamp on a 1937 imported(non-Inland Production or non- tuzemsko) Czech peddled longarm by Adolf Machac with " Siemens-Martin Steel Falla Patent Brazing "



PeteM's Falla reference:



http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post222277



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

They're back.

ADOLF MACHAC A BRNO 12 Pair Boxlocks

http://www.jaquas.com/gunlist/Details.asp?StockNumber=215521&StockTemplate=0

Great re-discovery.....


Serbus,

Raimey
rse