Hi guys. I have a side by side that I was given by my grandfather before he died. I cannot find any obvious manufacturer on it and wondered if someone here might be able to help. I have tried to take some detailed pictures of it to assist. It isn't in great shape and isn't super ornate like some models but it is what I have. Any info would be great as trying to google what you don't know has been difficult.

Hello vitamenT,

I hope I'm wrong, but it looks to me like one of the mass produced Belium made guns, It has Leige proof marks.

Althought the barrels may be stamped Whitworth Fluid Steel there's no gaurantee that they are what is stated.

Literally tens of thousands of such guns were produced often unmarked and sold to multiple retail outlets the world over, many of these bulk purchasers had them engraved or stamped with their own name.

The No.2. inlaid in gold I think is one of those sales tricks to persuade the buyer that it may be a better quality gun than would otherwise be thought. English top quality shotguns sold in pairs are so numbered.

As old Sam Colt used to say, "For a dollars worth of extra finish, I can sell a pistol for five dollars more". There's many a gunmaker done the same since.

If you plan of firing it, get a qualified gunsmith to check it out first. Value, sadly not very much. A nice wall hanger.

I don't recognise the trade mark, but I'm sure others on here will. Date of manufacture? anywhere between 1890 and 1920 at a guess.

Harry

High grade gun BTW.
Is any signs on top of the barrels or any marks on breech face?

That is a high end gun. It has english barrels by Joseph Whitworth. It is one of a matched pair. A 12 gauge that was nitro proofed. It was proofed between 1910 and 1924. At the time of proof, the barrels weighed 1.6616 Kg or 3.55 lbs. It was made for 2 3/4" ammunition.

http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html

There is punch on the barrels that says "trade mark". I can not make out what that mark is. Also, as Geno asked, is there any markings on the top rib or any where else on the gun?

Pete

Is the trademark Whitworth's? The text is in the same direction. Also the tubes appear to be chopperlump and it has a Purdey nose.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Not a super authority on continental guns but I would agree gun is number 2 of a pair. Could this be a birmingham gun built in Belguim with English tubes?? I know some of the lesser know English firms outsourced some work at one point. Gun appears to be quality. It is a sidelock with ejectors. Most of the cheap Belguim "trade" guns were boxlocks, and had extractors. This gun is of higher quality than one might think...

Another hint of the outsourced work is the serial number is on both barrel tubes, makes sense with a chopper lump. I guess they numbered both tubes so that they remained a pair during shipment to Belguim??

As I can see finish is funeral. From French it sounds like Black Bronze Case Hardering.

How does the steel of a tube stamped Sir Joseph Whitworth "Fluid Compressed Steel" vs. "Sir Joseph Whitworth Fluid Pressed Steel" compare, either with or without the Wheatsheaf trademark? Did the composition of the steel evolve or did he sell ignots and tubes? Did the two stamps run parallel in time or is there a specific date for the change?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

On my Purdey #19xxx c.1907 "Made of Sir Joseph Whitworth Fluid Pressed Steel" - sign on top of right barrel, no trade mark, but barrel tubes #'s 35857 and 35858

I bet it was an unfinshed Purdey that was stolen and secretly smuggled into Germany.

By the scratches on the lock plate it appears it was once worked on by a gunsmith with Parkensons.

So if Whitworth tubes 35857 & 35858 were circa 1907 then Whitworth 40913 & 40914 wouldn't be too far behind say 1910-1911? Any idea of Whitworth's yearly tube production?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Geno,

I was thinking along the same lines. It has all the appearances of a funeral gun.

Pete

Thanks for all the info guys. I will take some pictures of the breech and top of the barrels in just a bit but there doesn't seem to be any markings on them at all.

Also this could be very common, but the extractors only eject the shell that has been fired. For instance if two shells are loaded, one is fired, then you open the breech only the fired shell will be ejected.

The action looks like a Francotte based on the H&H. They are very fine guns and in good shape run in the $6-7K range. The tubes are Whitworth with the proper Whitworth serial numbers & trademark on them. The practice of numbering the Whitworth barrels was similar to (maybe the same as) many of the British patents where the gun had a serial number and another number was affixed to show how many times a particular patent (A&D action for instance) was used under license. I guess it was a way to keep track of royaly monies for use of the patent.

Great gun!

They are called selective ejectors and are common. However the type of selective ejector system is what you look at for rarity, etc.

I disagree with Mr. Eales, that's a high quality gun. Not all high quality guns are extensively engraved. Now learn all you can about it's care, use and history and don't let it get any more rust. It may be very shootable if it checks out ok by a competent doublegun 'smith.

And we know it has 2&3/4" chambers- as that's how the Froggies mark their tubes in 70mm, whereas 65mm is a 2&5/8" chamber length- both approx--if you want to 'split hairs' here- blonde, redhead, whatever-our std. 2 & 3/4" Made in USA decimal based system is probably closer to the Froggies 69.6mm-- no big deal.

It is a seven pin back actioned sidelock and some idiot boogered the lock through pin head- too cheap to buy a second or third set of Graces from Brownell's and custom grind for an EXACT dead nuts fit- No excuse for that kinda crap--

Actually I think it is a bar action sidelock the photos show a pin on the bar which usually secures the mainspring, with all the pins it probably has intercepting sears, JMO.

Jim A.

this is a bar action and it has the same pin layout that the scott mont carlo B the Scott isn't stocked to the fences.you are very lucky this looks like a great gun.mr Eales is way off on this gun. mc

Run with the Fox I see you are up to your usual stuff. On a previous post you flag the first amendment like it's your right to be an a$$ sorry sir but I did not lose a brother fighting for that right for you, where I come from people with mouths big enough to spout stupidities and slurs while chewing on the first amendment get slapped right in the c**ksucker. Perhaps you should err more on the side of humility.

Lebeau?
[img]http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/1452382187028237237euyPzz[/img]

That was my first thought, but s/n not matched. It was someone very well known by pretty big s/n.

It's like the Belgian 'no maker's name' boxlock I have; not much engraving, but what there is, you have to have a 10 power glass to see it all.

It looks to have a hinghed trigger as mine does, but seems to have an odd cut.

The safety button is the give-away. We've seen that as a standard part in pictures right here, and I can't remember who the maker is. Too many eggnogs I guess.
But it sure looks very much like the Lebeau pics on that link.

Here is a Lebeau that Griffin & Howe has on their site.



I have to check my catalogs to see if I can id a model. It bothers me that there are markings. Lebeau usually marked their guns...

More on Lebeau
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20l/a%20lebeau%20gb.htm

Pete

Pete, Lebeau has changed a number of design elements in the last 100 years. The new guns look alot less like this man's gun than the old ones do. Especially pin placement and diameter.
The slots in the safety button will identify the maker.