I have been offered this gun, 70% condition, for $700. After checking around it looks like a sleeve job will be around $1800. Will this be a $2500. gun when done? What to do? Any one have any ideas?
Far easier and cheaper to find a second set of barrels and have them fit to the gun. Still will end up with a mismatched serialnumbered gun that will be a nice shooter. Original condition is gone forever and nothing will bring that back. So start thinking in terms of making the gun into a nice shooter because that is all it can ever be from this point on.
Jerry,
I'm in agreement that the gun will not end up to be worth anywhere near $2500. However, if you can do the work yourself, it would be worthwhile. I can do this work and find this gun attractive for the price. Let me know if you would like to pass this deal along to me.
I'm getting uncomfortable with the numbers of Fox guns passing through this site (and, others) in freshly "blown up" condition, frames and/or barrels. What the heck are folks doing with them? I had always thought that a Fox had a lot going for it, as long as one could get used to the idea it would end up striker bound at some point and need the services of a good 'smith. Folks seem to accept the idea their model 21s will likely pop a rib someday, or their Elsie will need it's stock attended to, and love those guns, so the concept isn't without precedent, but, I have grown fond of my fingers and eyes, middle aged as they are.
Tampered with bores and bore obstructions aside, is there something that is leading to the rash of broken Foxes? Just curious.
Best,
Ted
I have 2 fox shotguns, bought one from a guy that was shooting 3inch shell thru it..not every one has common sense...
Ted,
Figure that 95% of shot gun owners are sane, safe people who do not use or abuse their guns in a unsafe manner. That leaves 5% who do not. They are either stupid, poorly informed, unwilling to use what we consider common sense or reasonable precautions or just unlucky enough to have a gun fail because of ammo problems, bore obstructions or just age/fatigue of their guns. It is from this group most of the failures that we see come.
Seeing the results of a few of them does not suprise me. In fact I have to say that I suspect that many are just keep a secret as most people hate to admit that they screwed up and did anything that might be thought of as stupid.
I suspect that if Wally-Worlds' shells ran about 7,000 psi instead of 10-11,000, that most of the failures we see would go away. Modern shells, shot in gun not designed for them, with a 75 year accumulation of bad gunsmithing is a disaster waiting to happen.
Funny that you have not heard of any Ithaca NID or Winchester M-21 having problems. They are the only two real "modern" designed gun that many of us shoot. I would never drop a couple Wally World shells into one of my Lefevers. I, like you, have grown quite attached to my fingers. Plus it would be such a waste of a nice Lefever.
On the 21 "likely popping a rib some day". Is that fact or a wives tale? I have 4 of these guns, shoot them a lot with modern ammo, and haven't had a problem with a rib or anything else for that matter. Has anyone here on this site had a 21 with a popped rib? Silvers
The 21s pop ribs on occasion for good reason-the steel the tubes are made from feature a goodly amount of chromium, and that makes the job of soldering ribs difficult, as the steel is difficult to wet.
It is not a wives tale, and was mentioned in a letter John Olin sent to a customer pertaining to the forend loop coming loose on his gun. Are all 21s going to pop a rib? Doubtful. Do 21s suffer popped ribs as often or more than other gun designs from the same era? Without question.
Best,
Ted
After all the years i worked on doubles i noticed most blown bbls happen around the halfway point, just ahead of the forearm where pressure should have dropped by 60%. Most bbls mike out an average of .030 of an inch inwall thickness. The bores on most of these older double bbles. are tighter than todays standard. The old paper case was much thicker than plastic therefore the projectile (for lack of a better discription) was smaller in dia.than a plastic case with a shot cup that is bigger in dia. Couple that with increased pressure and older work hardened steel its no wonder we see these things happening. This is just my oppinion. Its always supprising to people who see a bbl. blown out almost flat, they cant believe how wide it is . Almost as wide as there eyes when it happens. I think if i had a high grade older double i would only use the older style European shells. Rich
Interesting about the barrel wetting theory when soft soldering chromium steel as in M21 barrels.... now I'm wondering if the Fox "Chromox" barrels (chromium/vanadium steel) have an increased tendency to pop ribs as compared with the earlier Fox carbon steel tubes? Has anyone seen more popped ribs with later Fox guns, as compared with earlier ones? Let's say we use ~1918 as the break point between barrel steels on 12 gauge Foxes?
To answer the question, I'd pass. Finding a set of decent barrels would likely put you in the >$1k range and there are shooters out there for that money. 20 ga ejector barrels would not be an easy find, then they would need fitted. For Ted, let's say there are over 200K Sterlingworths built. With all of the different ways for a gun to be damaged, wouldn't the law of averages suggest failures? Also, when people start seeing $2-4K Sterlingworths listed, it makes them think that any old shooter will bring the high dollars. Then all of a sudden a gun with blown barrels must be worth something... out of the closets and attics they come.
RR,
That could be, but, the pictures I've seen of late are "freshly" blown guns, usually, with a description of how they did it. One unlucky gun had been re-case colored, not by the torch, but a legitamate bone/charcoal outfit. I wish Dr. Gaddy were here to comment.
Silvers,
The comparison between Fox "Chromox" barrels and Winchester "Proof Steel" tubes is flawed by the fact that Winchester used chrome moly steel, not chrome vanadium. "More Difficult" to wet in a soldering operation doesn't mean "Impossible to wet" either, as there are many that haven't had a problem. A popped rib is an ugly problem to have, however.
Best,
Ted
I have been fooling around with Foxes for a long time and have bought several 16 and 20 ga. guns with blown barrels.Some were very thin where they blew, suggesting maybe that they were filed too thin! Extractor Fox barrels can be converted to ejector easily. Bobby
I've had over 25 Ansley H. Fox doubles in the last 43 years, and the only loose rib was on a 1918-vintage B-Grade with Krupp barrels.
Jerry, you need to run away from that "deal".
I've taken to shooting Gamebores Black powder shells in my decent shooter grade AH Fox guns. I would be hard pressed to be in the market for anything more than shooter grade vintage All- Americans. Cracked frames, cracked wood and blowin' barrels - just think how freaked-out the man with the high priced high grades must feel?
Back in the cabinet you go, ol'boy!
Will chat about your SN and percent of case color - your days in the field are done, ol' sod!
As time passes, more and more of these old classics are being refurbished and refinished. It is becoming common practice to clean-up bores and/or replace choke by honing bores. That coupled with work on exterior of barrels to prep for re-blue can lead to very thin barrels made of weaker steels that are candidates for failure. Many can not recognize a refinished gun or do not have tools to measure barrel thickness.