I know this is going to start a crap storm but this is how some guys treat a woman they figure is ignorant of gun values and guns in general.

I will not name names or places or the actual gun, serves no purpose. She has no reason to make it up.

I was at a show this weekend. Spoke with a person who was at a big show recently with a mid letter grade American double, (not a Fox). They had the eyes and ears of one of the inner circle of a nationaly known collectors group . Guy spent almost an hour going over the gun. asked price was told "something teen". This was a graded gun, small bore, very nice condition. He offered one teen less. they accepted. he wrote a check for something teen hundred dollars, . The gun to any of this group of collectors would be a given at 5 figures. When she said something teen she was saying something teen thousand. She figured since this guy was a guru of a collectors organization at the show, he would know what she meant. Not mistaking on his part the huge difference in the price versus real value.
I saw the gun. Its worth 5 figures. definitely way more than what he wrote the check out for short one zero on the end.
Looks like one of these guys figured he could swindle this out of a female who they figured didn’t know what she had.

I have no dog in this hunt. just figured i would pass a tale of collectors gone wild so to speak. Good thing she did know her guns. Like she said, "I may be blond, but not that blond"!!!

Okay boys, flame away.

A judge would rule it "hearsay" and dismiss the case.

I really don't know what you are talking about with all this 'teen' business. Could you just use normal language?

I'm with GregSY.

I think you're talking about old news, of dealers and collectors (and investors/speculators?) who will frequently behave less than honourably in order to get their hands on pieces to add to their collections/trading stock at less than market prices. It happens commonly, at all levels.
RG

If you are going to collect guns, coins, stamps or anything of value and die before your wife you need to make her aware of the real value of the guns. On top of that you need to leave clear written instructions of how and where to sell your stuff for a fair value. If you do not do that you are almost making it a certain fact that your wife will get screwed out of a major part of the value of your collection.

My list is already done and the wife knows where it is and what to do. I do not have any gun that would bring 15k or so each but the shear number of guns I have make it a decent total dollar collection. Just as I would not like to give the government half of the value I do not see the need to give a dealer more than I need to just to convert my guns into cash.

I have seen several gun show deals that follow your original post but the seller had no real fair market value to work with. Just a buying dealer telling them that they are getting top dollar. Like going to a car lot to sell your car without any clue what it worth. Sounds like this lady had most of the information that she needed to not get taken for a ride. How informed is your wife?

well two things,

1). I too am confused with all this talk of 4 figures 5 figures, teens and zeros' - to make things simple why not just put the figures in ?????

2). This sounds like any hard businesman, be it cars, antiques or houses and is not that uncommon - ladies are also not the only victims...

What's so hard to understand? She was asked what she wanted for the gun. She replied (I'll inject a digit), "Thirteen", meaning thirteen thousand. He (the dealer) figured he'd make a try at scamming her so wrote her a check for thirteen hundred. Brian, knowing more about the piece says it's value was easily in the five figures bracket (meaning ten thou' or above).

Sad story, but unfortunately as long as we live on this earth we will hear of people who try to take advantage of others for money. I think it just bothers us worse because this gun community tries to police itself, in a way, but it goes on daily in all businesses. Widows or divorcees are taken advantage of by unscrupulous land buyers, timber buyers, home buyers, the list is very long.

We all hear of "shady" dealings going on. My take is this, if you are at a show selling guns, no matter what the gender, you should have done your homework as to value of guns. IF it is a higher quality than normal, you should have had it appraised by someone that knows them.
The other take is when a spouse dies suddenly and the widow sells the guns from the home, we have all heard of "great deals" this way, and to no fault of the widow, was usually "taken".
Like KY Jon stated, have a list of prices for someone to follow in the case of your demise.

A while back, there was a lot of controversiary over the same subject, a Parker 28 ga. Person didn't post for quite a while afterwards, from what I can remember.

Awfully complicated description of what really happened. Did she accept the check? Ditto JDW's comments.

Happy you're home safe, Brian. Many thanks for your service.

Why did she accept the check? She is under no compulsion to accept the check just because it is written out!! Please, she surely recognized an error on someone's part when there was an order of magnitude between ask and offer. Certainly the buyer was less than honorable. However, the seller allowed herself to be a victim. Neither gets a pass in my book.

I think Stan summed it up succinctly.

"inner circle of a nationally known collectors group . Guy spent almost an hour going over the gun. ....... This was a graded gun, small bore, very nice condition."
One would hope for a semblance of ethics from such a group.
Not so much from the low end of the dealer class. There are many ethical dealers in my experience.

I do not believe a transaction was completed, the lady took her gun and went home. Good for her.

"Good thing she did know her guns. Like she said, "I may be blond, but not that blond"!!!"

As others have stated do your due diligence before the fact and you will not be caught with your pants down.

I completely understood Brian's post. I would have loved to seen the look on the "buyer's" face when he thought Christmas had come early and then the lady pulled the rug out from under him.

I have a gut feeling she's paraded that 28 Parker through this site before. I think she gets a kick out of guys trying to scam it from her.
I've seen her throw the bait on a couple shotgun sites.
Women are so rare in this avocation, it can't be a coincidence.

If that 28 was a Zara Spook, she'd be walkin' the dog!

Wouldn't surprise me if there was a wake of broken men in her dating life as well. I used to think she was a man that was just trolling to embarass the pompous. Now I think she's real, and has a bitter streak.

If she had NOT done her homework why would she have given him a price in the "teen" thousands? I think she pretty well knew what it might bring, and left behind her a disappointed unethical buyer. Good for her.

I'm quite sure you're talking about two different women and circumstances. The person I know is a lady, acts accordingly, and doesn't attend gun shows.

Interesting to me how bold many people become when hiding behind "handles", and spouting off about things they know nothing of.



That's all I have to say about that!

Taking a check at a gun show? Not me. Show me the Benjamins

Fred-You can be as mad as you like about whatever slight you must be feeling.
The fact is carrying a collectible anything around the pool the sharks live in is a form of fishing. Some people don't like being played, and a great many women despise men that seek to play them. Doesn't even have to be in the realm of collectibles.
But the story, as always relayed by another, is typical of the story that shows up on these gun sites every year or 18mos. "I have this thing left to me by... Deceased husband, Grandparent, old aunt, whatever, that just happens to be a verrry desireable something-or-other.
People trip over themselves to acquire it at the lowest possible cost as quickly as possible. Always sub-rosa. A regular frothing of the internet.
The pattern, and story line always looks like bait to me. Why here? Why not at the corner gun shop your deceased spent all the money at? Why not at his gun club? 3 hours of internet searching and account set up to ask what this thing-a-ma-bob is worth? It's putting the bait where the fish are.
It reads like any contemporary legend. The grain of truth. The cautionary tale. The rarity or uniqueness, the third party telling (FOAF), etc.
I have always figured (for several reasons) that it was always one of the lads trying to see how deep he could set the hook, and how high he could get people to jump.
This story has evolved to the innocent female victim (via third party telling) being nose to nose with the sharks.
I'm a firm believer in if it's too good to be true, it is.

To summarize, I believe playing people for fun is bad. Scheming to buy guns far below market value from the uninformed is worse.

Never said she accepted it.
DAM16SXS; Not hearsay if I heard it from the actual person involved.

Not a widow. she has owned the gun and hunted it for more than 30 years. she isnt a wall flower.
she knew market vaklue. she had it priced at the higher end of its value prepared for some dickering. But not getting D*cked.

she told him in no uncerttain terms what he could do with the check.
Okay, without divulging the actual gun, I will use a Fox (not the actual gun) to illustrate for all you guys who didnt get it the first time:

woman at a table, set up, displaying an A.H. Fox 20 Ga DE. a person at the AHFCA table approaches her and asks her how much, she replies 19. He asks to see the gun. she shows him and he pours over it for a while, 30-45 minutes. makes a few calls. asks her her if she will take 18. she says yes. He writes a check for 1800 dollars. she tells him no way.

he ( based on his knowledge and his mannerisms as a serious collector, etc. knew damn well that the gun was worth 18 thousand, not 1800.
She knew what her gun was worth. she wasnt a tyro.

I'm certainly not coming to anyone's defense and I don't think I know who the check writer was but I sure would like to hear his rendition of the story (every story has two sides).

I think any seller at a gunshow or gunshop who does not attach price tags to his/her wares is guilty of fishing for suckers and deserves a shark every once-in-a-while. JMHO

was not a parker 28.
Like I said, I heard her side. But I have dealt with her before. Not trolling.
About the check. well, i get that all the time at shows. Mnay "customers' come up and want to buy a gun but have no money???!!! how many of you go to a show lookign to buy and dont bring funds??

Bottom line on this is that she had a fair price, he figured he had a bimbo with her dead hubbys gun and knew nothing about it.
She didnt get taken.

I think the moral of this story is that people who talk in coy terms, especially when dealing with money related items, deserve to be treated as stupid.

Is it really that difficult to say 'twenty-five thousand' as opposed to 'twenty-five'? My guess is if she is a woman she probably has no aversion to talking anyway.

Am I misunderstanding?...I presumed she had a booth or table, now I'm getting the impression that she walked in with the gun over her shoulder...

Coy terms? If you were at a classic car show and had a for sale sign on an original '69 Camaro SS 396 and someone asked you what you'd take for it and you replied eighteen, would you be speaking in "coy" terms? No, anybody in their right mind would know you didn't mean eighteen hundred. Sure, it's no trouble to say "eighteen thousand", but this type conversation happens everyday between people who are knowledgeable about the item in question. That's the crux of this, he apparently assumed she WASN"T knowledgeable, and attempted to take advantage of it. Either that or, HE'S the one who is stupid, not her.

Sometimes it happens vice versa. I have in my safe an original Manton 16 ga. precussion double that was bought by a friend at a gun show in N. Georgia a few years ago. He walked by a gentleman who had several guns for sale at a table and asked to look at the double. Seeing it was a Manton, and in apparently unfired condition, he asked "How much?". Owner replied "Three". Friend looks it over carefully and replies, "It's certainly a nice one, and worth a great deal, but I'd really like to buy it for less than that". Owner replies, "No, if I can't get at least three hundred dollars for it I'll just take it back home". As you can imagine, both seller AND buyer went home happy.

I dunno Stan...sounds like every deal that uses coy language results in someone getting screwed, or coming close to it.

Sounds to me like Mr. Manton Sellers mighta gone home happy but he got screwed a little.

So, your friend didn't say, Oh no, I want to give you three thousand?

I'm with Stan. The guy was stupid and I would say less than honorable. I wouldn't share the space at a bar with him to have a beer.

Similar story; I walked into the Vegas show a 4-5 yrs back with a small gauge Spanish sidelock slung over my shoulder to sell. I got some looks and questions right away and then a short, overweight, gundealer that I had recognized as one that many of you have dealt with and favorably recommended, approached me, called me "young man", (I'm about 50 at the time, within about 10 yrs of this guy, maybe less), asked if I knew the gun market was about to fall apart and told me that he'd give me about half of what I was asking and that would be good for me and I should be glad to get it. His story of why I should sell this gun for his offer rambled for 5-10 minutes until I couldn't stand it any longer and told him he should sell all his crap for half of what he was asking and be glad. He looked at me like I'd gut-shot him. I walked away shaking my head. The guy wasn't worth the time he took from my life. I'd state the guy's name, but I can't recall it. He was one of the regularly mentioned dealers of doubles. I could probably find his picture in Dave's albums of past Vintagers, but it's not worth the effort. This is the stuff that makes you wanna punch these idiots.

Was it Chadwick? I think he's pretty short but I don't recall him being overweight.

Stan,

You want to double your $300 on the 16ga Manton??

tunes

I agree with some of the others here. If you say you want $13 for it, say $1300 or $13,000 what ever the case is. I am not a mind reader. I have asked about prices and some guys will tell me they want a dime for it. What the heck is that, I don't deal drugs, so I don't know how to deal with drug talk. If some would said to me, that they wanted $13 for a gun, I may very well assume they are telling me $1300. If they want $13,000 be courteous enough to say it and not call me dumb for their dumb pricing method. JMHO

Chuck,

I witnessed a similar scenario at a Tulsa show. My buddy had a extremely nice Remington-Hepburn for sale on our table. A dealer across the isle came over and picked it up a started a diatribe on everything that was wrong with gun from the caliber to the case color. When he completed his assessment he asked the price. My buddy which was now a color of red that is better seen than described, asked him why in the world he would want to buy a piece of $**^ like that, took the gun, replaced it on the table and refused to quote him a price. He sold the gun for asking price later in the morning as the dealer watched from across the isle.

I find it interesting how many want to make the woman out to be the person in the wrong.

My thinking is that if she was set up at a table, that made her a dealer, at least for the day. In that case, all bets are off and it's an arms length transaction. Both seller and buyer are expected to be knowledgeable under those circumstances. If they are not, they should not be buying or selling.

Different story if she walked in trying to sell her dead husband's gun, but it does not look like this non-deal went down that way.

The woman was in the wrong for not naming her price in terms that were clearly understood. The potential buyer was equally stupid.

The truth is is really has no bearing on seller was a woman or not; her fault lay in being stupid, not in her pants.

She was stupid, he was a cheat.

tunes,

That's one I couldn't sell. I offered to buy it from him if he ever wanted to sell, which he didn't. I had offered deer hunting on my land to him and his wife 20 something years before, and they had hunted with me every year since. Then, his wife was diagnosed with abdominal cancer. When she succumbed to it, and my wife and I went to her funeral, her husband asked me to eat breakfast with him at home. He walked into the room with the Manton and handed it to me and said that it had been his wife's dying wish that I have the gun. I tried to refuse it, but I could see that he, in his grief, was adamant that his dead wife's wish be honored. So, that's how it came to be in my safe. And, it HAS been fired now, in memory of Blanche.

Stan

she was at a table

- meaning she had paid for the table and was an exhibitor or seller? Did she have other guns for sale? Were any of them tagged with asking prices? In my opinion, in such a case, responding with "(something)teen" for a gun with no price tag is a lot worse than to respond "what would you offer?" or "what do you think it is worth?" The guy writing the check may have simply been graphically showing her the error of her ways.

Hope springs eternal in the human breast and after nearly 40 years of being an exhibitor at guns and antique shows I have learned to always be very clear about the price when asked about unmarked items.When asked about a Meek reel many years ago and I responded"Two and a half" the young man pulled out 3 one dollar bills. He was not aware of what it really was and I was not clear on the price. I have never made that mistake again.

The other thing I find hard to digest is that the buyer looked the gun over for almost an hour and in that whole time the 'misunderstanding' never came to light.

I'm tossing this case out of court due to general apathy.

Brian,

I could not understand your description of the event. Why don't you repost with the actual facts. You're asking us to comment on a purposely muddled and hypothetical event.

Phil

This stuff goes on all the time. A lady asked for my help because she wanted to sell a NIB Winchester Model 12 that had been sitting in her late husband's gun safe since he had bought it many years ago.

The "dealer" told her it would be hard for him to re-sell, because "no one wants pump guns anymore" and "16 gauge ammo is too hard to find." I won't say what he offered her for it, but she was savvy enough to see she was being embarrassed.

I helped her find a home for it, on reasonable terms for both parties.

I realize that you are in business to make money, but customer service and honesty is what keeps you in business.

Kind regards,

Oh come on now, every gun owner dreams of screwing some poor old widow woman out of her late husband's guns. It's the American dream.

Don't know if it is the American dream but it certainly seems to be the American way. Why are prices on automobiles, appliances, guns, real estate, airplanes, boats and prostitutes negotiable? The only explanation I can see is that the sellers want to get more money from the least competent buyers.

My wife uses coupons and often shows me a tape that shows she cut 25% off our grocery purchase. Do you suppose there is a Housewive's forum and they are writing about how Albertson's Grocery Stores are taking advantage of all those unmarried men paying full price for everything because they think they are too busy to clip coupons?


Best,

Mike

In the past 2 years I have bought two very high grade Lefevers from widows who found them in their deceased husband's gun closets. Neither had any knowledge of the guns. I did what I could to educate them and a fair price was rendered for each. I couldn't sleep at night knowing I had intentionally cheated an unknowing sole of something that was rightfully due them.

On the other hand, if I walked into a pawnshop in Podunk and found a genuine Optimus priced at $500 I would not hesitate to pick it up at that price. In this case its somebody who is in business, and it is their reponsibility to know the value of what they are selling. I feel the same applies to anyone who has a table at a gun show.

I don't see the distinction based on gender. One has a table, has a graded smallbore, knows what it's worth. Other one has a national rep, likes to vet condition to maybe depress price, perhaps to educate, who knows. They've both got a big set imo and can afford to misunderstand each other without going home hungry. Brian, where the chivalrous attitude to poor defenseless womenkind comes in is beyond me but maybe you had to be there to get the full effect.

jack

What jack said.

Additonally, for those of us with religious inclinations, there are strong Biblical condemnations of screwing over widows and orphans.

Best,

Mike

I thought Preachers did it all the time....

In perfect synchronization with the theme of this thread, let me cite my own case. I met a widow with a safe full of guns, a four wheel drive vehicle, a house, a job, a pair of field trained Springers, and a pretty decent bank account. I admitted to her that I had thought of taking her for a ride on the guns. Instead, I married her, moved her in, and we are living happily ever after. The Lovely Linda says she married me for MY guns. How about that.

She have a sister?

There's nothing wrong with marrying a woman, using her money and guns and 4WD - but moving in with her is asking for trouble.

A member of one of the collectors associations bought a gun at the Southern in the fashion. May not be the same situation but it was a rape job. Paid about 10% of the value. A fine representation from a man on the front lines of gun collecting and very well known.
Jerk.

Mr. Jerk, maybe you could do a better job than Brian and tell us who the hail you are talking about and what were the particulars of the situation.

eightbore although "Jerk" does look like it is ScottG's signature in that last post and even though there are other indications I think Scott was referring to the alleged miscreant in the "Expert cheats Lady at Southern SxS" story. I do not think his last name is "Jerk".

Best,


Mike

Very kind, Mike but I think eightbore saw an opening and took it. Kind of funny, too.

Imagine my error. I am constantly amazed by posters on these sites who can accuse and imply but seldom if ever identify the target of their disdain. Someone who has not paid close attention to these threads could reach the conclusion that a member or officer of any one of three or more collectors organizations, or maybe not even a member, is guilty of flim flamming a blue hair who either wandered in with her late husband's gun or maybe was a skilled vendor of high grade guns who was seated behind a table she rented to sell her wares. What exactly are the facts of this case, Brian? I'm sure Dave is about ready to put a stop to this insane rhetoric. Before he does, someone come clean and mention some names.

Scott, you seem to know who this representative of one of three major collector organizations is, since you describe him fairly specifically, so who is he, now that you have smeared all three organizations? It was not eightbore, that's for sure because I didn't buy anything but a few shotgun shells at the Southern.

Linda looking for a boy-ish toy?

Guns, 4wd, hunting dogs - the trifecta of relationships.

Just don't tell me she owns 20,000 acres outside of Mitchell, SD. Then I'll be really jealous.

OWD

I am done with this post. I related a story. other than making the amounts different, its all the same as what happened. I posted just for general comment. I have no horse in this race either way.

why would anyone expect more from gun dealer/collector then coin dealer, car dealer,.....