Hi Guys:
I posted this topic a couple of years ago and did not get much positve input. Wondering if things have changed
I see lots of tired, heavily worn, cobbled up English boxlock guns that folks are buying. In fact a major English gun dealer told me that they are sending stuff to the US as they can not sell these beaters in UK. Also a major gunsmith here in the US say these are great for his business as folks buy them and then have to correct the problems.
My original post of 2 years ago was this:
I would take nice well cared for guns and have them gone through, and restored to as new condition. The work would be done correct, and proper by professionals, both here and abroad.
The items that could be included would be some of the following
Strip/clean
Repair or replace any worn parts and springs that my be over the hill
Pick up engraving
Refinish stock/forearm and renew checkering
Reblacken bbls
Redo receiver
any other work that needed to be done in order to make these guns right!
1. Here is the thing. These would be a gun that when purchased would be a gun that had no issues that you had to correct, a gun that you would have confidence in as they have been renewed to proper specifications
You could be proud to show it
2. And nothing needs to be done to it and would last the rest of your like with proper care.
3. Maybe even case them up in a nice case and label
These would not be cheap guns, but considering the quality work involved, still a bargain at below new replacement cost and value.
I would give a 1 year warranty!
What do you think?
Best
John Boyd
Quality Arms
I remember your thread.
I felt it hinged on the exchange rate.
$3200 seems the tipping point for used Brummie bl's.
If you can get the metal work done before import, there might be more margin now than in the past.
Just a opinion.
I think it's a great idea, but I would not redo the receiver. Re-chase the engraving if needed, yes, but leave the rest of it alone. Just my personal preference.
arrieta:
You seem a bit contradictory. If you start with "well cared for guns", why fool with them at all? If they are certified "beaters" then they probably entail more work than is economically prudent to invest. Especially picking up the engraving -- which requires annealing the key bits, chasing the engraving, then re-hardening the lot at the risk of warpage/refit.
Just my personal opinion, but I'd rather have a patina-rich original that functions (if well cared for) than a glossy refurbished piece. But that's just me.
Best, Kensal
John, other than the fact you're talking English guns, what would be the advantage of a gun like that over, say, a new AyA 4/53--which you currently sell?
Maybe that's a good topic for everyone here to discuss. Other than the vintage vs new factor, with vintage appealing more to some people, why would you prefer a totally redone Brit boxlock that's, say, 80 years old--and is restricted to either 2 1/2" shells or low pressure reloads--over a new AyA? Or would you prefer the AyA?
Good question, Larry. Just a matter of taste and personal interest I guess. As for me, I'd prefer the older guns with all their usual problems and warts.
If I had a new AYA, I wouldn't need (and couldn't afford) more guns; with the golden oldies, I need 9 or 10 guns around at least to come up with one that works in a given situation...Geo
Hi John, I'm picking these guns up all the time. I'm lucky, I'm in England.
Anyway, I look for precisely the guns you are speaking of. I do them up and either keep them or sell them. I make no bones they are restored and I love the work. It isn't my full time profession but I do love it...just getting into case colour hardening.
On the engraving side I've not had that done yet, it is SILLY expensive to have something re-engraved here. Talking 800 quid upwards for a basic engraving on a gun.
Regards,
Tony
John, the target audience for the gun you describe is the customer who does not yet own a good gun. How many of that type of person is still out there? I know more people who own fifty shotguns than I know who own none. I don't know anyone who owns from one to five shotguns.
I have to agree with this eightbore. The people I know either have a lot of doubles or a tactical Burgler Bashing Bernelli. I guess they only need one because burglers only come in the two legged variety!
Jim
John,
Toby Barclay of Heritage Guns is doing just what you suggest. He's coming back to the US with some restored British guns for the Vintagers in Sept.
So there must be a market for them.
Jeff
I have done just what John describes to four English guns and I love them. Not everybody's cup of tea but it was my choice.
I have also done a few American doubles and I like them as well.
I left my Lefever alone as well as a Fox SW with a lot of case color.
Toby Barclay does move his stuff and I would encourage John to look into it farther.
Just my two cents, Gordon
John, give it a go, test the market. I think you will do just fine.
John, if you mentioned a price range, I missed it. I think the pricerange contains the answer to your question. As to the aftermarket type boxlock cases, I don't think they add much value. Maybe vintage ones do, but not much except in special instances.
There is a market for what you are thinking about doing. To make it work you will need someone to buy the guns for a good starting price, then over see the work needed. No doubt, with out workers, it can be done for far less over there than over here. Then shipping in job lots to keep shipping expenses done should be easy for you to figure out. As a plus you can adjust the number and timing of your inventory to hit the peak interest times of the year.
Try ten guns for a target sample and see how they sell. Most of us here will be only a modest interest in what you are offering but it is a small niche market. The bottom feeders will drool, the fellows with a hundred guns will look with interest. Well, they might be your best market, come to think of it. You got to play to win.
If you did only 16's and 20's you would probably do well....12's would be overpriced after the clean up and cosmetics ....?..........New cases would not be worth the effort or cost in my opinion.....
Best,
No money in it.
First off, where are you going to buy mechanically solid guns with good bbls for a bout 1/3 of what they're worth?
If you know where there's a steady supply of these, let me know. Believe me, you're not the only guy looking for them, either here or in the UK. IF you get them out of the UK, shipping/fees will eat up another 1/3. You'll be 2/3s into these guns before you touch them. That's leaves 1/3 for fixing them up and profit. That's thin.
Second, why bother "restoring" them? Doing it right costs too much. Guys simply won't pay the money it would take to make the ROI worth your time.
Finally, the market for English boxlocks is just not that strong. Check out these guns:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=180690570http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=196171#Post196171Those are all original guns at very fair prices. The guys can't sell them.
How are you going to sell warmed over stuff if they can't move those doubles?
OWD
Isnt this kinda what Hill Rod & Gun has been doing for years now? They don't "fully" restore the guns they import, but they get them up to proper working order (put back on face, springs, etc). I think if a person was to buy the guns at low auction prices, put a little work into them, there is money to be made, no doubt about it. I think this is precisely what Dig does when he finds guns on the cheap isn't it??
Dustin
Thanks guy, great input. Larry I was thinking of this because though the aya #453 is a great gun, there are folks that love English gun and might rather have one than a Spanish gun. I would only do 16 or 20 bores unless there was really something special with a 12. However, I think now after taking to one of my friends who is a major English gun buyer in the US and a national known dealer this maybe be not such a good idea. My conversations with them today and yesterday may have changed my mind and with your kind replies that also helped.
I appreciate IT!!!!
Thanks fellows
More to follow. I might get a wild hair and try one or two
Best!
John Boyd
I personally think it is a great idea. There are so many things that can go unoticed in English guns. I know from experience, I bought a few myself and I am no expert. I recently bought a nice sidelock by a well known London maker with new barrels made in Birmingham.I did not know they were replacemnet barrels and the dealer failed to mention it. Well everyone on this side of the pond threw rocks at it. But over there things like that are looked upon as no issue.
To have a well known dealer like John sell them I would beleive you would get a honest answer and up front on any issues.
I agree Mike, I think its a good idea... unless its just too expensive to do it.
In most cases, I wouldn't re color case them. I like the looks of worn CC. Gives it character. Stock refinishing with a checkering redo is good. Re-blacking the barrels and opening up the chambers maybe? Once its all down, throw it in a low-end case.
What do good but worn Birmingham boxlocks go for at auction?
Adam
Hi Tony - - I'm Bill Meeker. I picked you out of a discusson about a month ago regarding vintage English shotguns. I am in need of a forend for a W.C.Scott 12 guage side by side. It is in very good condition EXCEPT the forend went missing sometime. I've got it down to being built in 1887.
I am just taking a shot in the dark that you might be able to point me in the direction of someone who's hording 120 year old forends for English shotguns and has EXACTLY what I need.
Any ideas my E-mail is modelgolfer@prodigy.net
Thanks,
Bill