With the pricing of American doubles being what they are, even in this bad economy, it appears to me that Ithaca is the last great buy.
The NID guns are some of the most reliable I've shot out of what I will say are the "several" American doubles I own. When you start looking at quality engraving and wood work the guns made from 1900-1910 are masterfully done.
With the other American guns being so highly priced and prized I was curious if anyone felt the same regarding Ithaca?
Peace,
Scott
Not entirely OT, Scott, but I have no answer for my not wanting to own an Ithaca, clearly an American classic. I owned a M37 as a kid and think of Ithaca right up there in the pantheon of American double guns. Maybe we're both asking why is the Ithaca "the last great buy?"
Well said King. Why is Ithaca the last great buy indeed.
Perhaps because the Ithaca commpany lingered for so long the product does not have the aura of those from companies that met a much earlier and swifter demise, e.g. Parker, Fox, and L.C. Smith
I think a good part of the answer is that most commonly available Ithaca doubles are simply not as pretty as comparable guns from Parker, Smith and Fox. I have at least one of each, and the Ithaca (Flues 12) looks a bit clumsy next to the others. Fabulous wood on the Ithaca, though, for a field gun. The higher grade Ithacas can hold their own with the competition.
I believe Pete Hiatt coined the phrase " butt ugly" to describe the Ithaca doubles ( and M21s ) from time to time.
I wouldn't go to that extreme- but the guns cosmetic design may not be as appreciated as " prettier" guns.
The lack of comparative aesthetics might contribute to the lower demand , as value and utility are not always the key considerations for the purchase of " investment" or even "traditional" pursuits.
The practicality and dependability of the NIDs are without question, but for those that decide to use doubles and have the discretionary income to allow for more than just value, other amenities come into play ( feel/wood/look/wood/engraving even " panache")--- Ithacas may not put their best foot forward in these areas / hence lower demand/price for these very capable doubles.
best regards,
JBP
No doubt I agree with all the comments. I do however believe the earlier graded Ithacas, 1900-1912, had some of the finest detail to engraving and craftsmanship. They did for sure have a long run compared to the other makers.
I believe Pete Hiatt coined the phrase " butt ugly" to describe the Ithaca doubles ( and M21s ) from time to time.
I think a good part of the answer is that most commonly available Ithaca doubles are simply not as pretty as comparable guns from Parker, Smith and Fox. I have at least one of each, and the Ithaca (Flues 12) looks a bit clumsy next to the others.
Also their reputation for cracking and the common internal problems so often mentioned could be a reason for their large turnover rate............
Found this bit of info on the NID of which I own one in 12g
The Field Grade Ithaca NID was one of the classic American doubles. It was introduced in 1925 (replacing the Flues model) and remained the mainstay of the line until the Ithaca Gun Company discontinued all double gun production in 1948. These Ithaca NID Field Grade doubles were solid, workmanlike guns that will still serve modern shooters well, although their stocks usually have more drop than modern stocks. Gun fit is a personal matter and is something to which any prospective buyer should pay close attention. Try before you buy.
The NID was an improved Ithaca boxlock action that featured a rotary bolt locking system and a strengthened frame. NID Field Grade guns typically came with fluid steel barrels suitable for modern shells (but not steel shot), color case hardened receivers with a roll stamped game scene, double triggers, plain extractors, solid rib, and a checkered walnut pistol grip stock. Gauges were 10, 12, 16, 20, 28, and .410.
Today all but the 12 and 16 gauges are primarily of interest to collectors, who have driven the price of the small gauge guns beyond what most shooters are willing to pay. The NID was also produced in many other grades with increasingly fancy features, decoration, and wood. Except for the Grade I, which is similar to the Field Grade, these higher-grade guns are usually out of the affordable price range. Even NID Field Grade guns were produced with variations.
Somewhere I've read that action bars cracked in the smaller gauge Flues (thin walls) but I've seen a lot of 12s and 16s that seem to be going strong in the takes a lickin and keeps on kickin dept. Engraving a graded Flues must have been like painting a bus. Early Ithaca engraving (the flash bravura get er did school) can be pretty flamboyant altho there seemed to be some choking up on the tool over birds and dogs. But who's seen a decent bird on a Parker? At least they knew how to move metal with a graver rather than a scratch awl and it shows! The Flues SBT is also a wonderful expression of young America. Mixes sophistication with naivete in the art dept. NIDs seem to me to be curiously unattractive even in the highest grades and I don't have a clue why?
jack
I have a 1 1/2 grade flues 16 gauge ,30 inch mod/mod and custom wood I absolutly love it ...when it go's up, sir grouse come's down ! .....and no, I don't find 30 inch barrel's a handicap in the grouse wood's
The 16's are nice guns. My very first shotgun was an A H Fox in
16g. Had that nice gun stolen when I was in college and have been crying about it for 40 years.
Don't know why 16's are not more popular in this country.
Here is a cracked flues.
A lot of guns can crack, like this Hollenbeck
Or this Fox
I own several Ithaca's
Including this 10ga flues
Pete
Ithaca turned out by two or three times more guns than either Parker, Fox, or LC Smith. I would expect to see more cracked Ithaca actions.
I especially like the engraving, wood, and checkering on the early Grade 4 Flues.
Best,
Mike
What we call the "breech face" was aptly named by the British "the breakoff"--for a very good reason!
Pete
If you take a look at what Steve Lamboy was doing at Ithaca Classic Doubles when that operation closed its doors, you'll see some mighty fine looking (and well-made) guns. That NID design looks awfully good in those clothes.
I guess it's a "frontier" I'll never cross.
Say it aint so joE! Chain damascus on the grade 4 above does catch the eye. Mine's got a swamped rib and little ramps fore and aft on fluid steel barrels like a Frenchie Charlin or Manufrance. (And that's Hollenbeck, Pete.
jack
I guess it's a "frontier" I'll never cross.
jOe doesn't want to become a 'frontiersman'......
"and always drinks upstream from the herd"........
that is lovely "clear starlit sky" damascus up there. forgive joe he thinks english tap water is southern comfort or jack daniels.
I like Bushmaster's notion that they may not have "the aura of those from companies that met a much earlier and swifter demise, e.g. Parker, Fox, and L.C. Smith." My notion is there's some peculiar psychology, more than looks and reliability, going on with Ithacas. There may be something of a nostalgic or romantic attachment to the companies that didn't linger. It baffles me.
I like Bushmaster's notion that they may not have "the aura of those from companies that met a much earlier and swifter demise, e.g. Parker, Fox, and L.C. Smith." My notion is there's some peculiar psychology, more than looks and reliability, going on with Ithacas. There may be something of a nostalgic or romantic attachment to the companies that didn't linger. It baffles me.
"Much Earlier and Swifter demise"......
Dusenberg and Cord, plus a multitude of other "high quality" cars and products did not survive the depression......can't understand how that "baffles" you..........?......Especially when you see the very "low" quality arms that survived these hard times, i.e. Savage made stamped out products etc. and even then
just barely........The low end products always survive hard times more readily than quality/costly products due to their vast majority audience......just look at history for any product line.....very clear footprint indeed.........
No mystic psychology required there at all....."cheap sold----high dollar did not"....
LC Smith did, by the way, survive the depression as Hunter Arms until October of 1945... Marlin owned thereafter.....doubles were made until the Fulton, N.Y. factory flooring collapsed January 17, 1949, at which time double gun manufacture ceased....production guns on hand were assembled and sold through 1951 until the stock was depleted....Marlin had found that the "true double" LC Smith was too costly to produce....and yielded to cheaper production guns, as had all the others in this country.......
Without World War II, the entire firearms industry
and the entire world economy would have been a very different animal indeed.........
Granted the depression and war changed the world, Doug, but using your examples perhaps owning a Dusenberg or Cord today may be preferable to other great cars of the period. I don't know.
Consider the premium on Parkers and the notion that Ithacas may be the last great buy. There's a lot more going on in demented consumerism than what's the best product for the mission. That's what baffles me.
I'm as demented as the rest because I wouldn't own an Ithaca if it was given to me.
Late to the thread here. I agree with those that hold the early Ithaca engraving in esteem, and I consider the NID an excellent design.
Step back and look at that picture. Art doesn't make the gun. All the while that wonderful engraving (and checkering!) was being applied, Ithaca was unrepresented among the professionals. Too, while you have to admire their fearlessness of starting with a clean sheet of paper and a new design every so many years, none of that speaks highly of their early guns. So when they arrive on the scene in the twenties with the excellent NID, it's like they are starting all over again without the benefit of the kind of reputation worn by the likes of Parker and Smith.
So, to answer the orignial question, yeah, they are a kind of last, heretofore underappreciated collecting niche that offers elements of design and art.
I wouldn't own an Ithaca if it was given to me.
I'm with you and jOe on that one King............
I wouldn't say it was the last frontier for American doubles. The Remington 1900 and 1894s are priced way lower than they should be. They are on par for quality with any of the above mentioned IMO.
This is a silly thing to say. The NID line is a great part of the American doubleguns and though not likely to ever be seen at some country club driven shoot by members driving up in a Cord or Duesy it was likely to be carried out for a day of pheasant hunting by my grandfather in his 1940 Ford Truck. So if you like the Duesys but someone today was going to give you a nice 1940 Ford, I guess you would tell them you wouldn't take that vehicle if it were given to you
I wouldn't own an Ithaca if it was given to me.
I'm with you and jOe on that one King............
Ithaca and LC Smith (under Marlin ownership) were the two makers of "quality" doubles that continued production after the war--although not for very long. They did continue their OU Model 90, which was more expensive than the cheap sxs, but less than the LC Field Grade or Fox Sterlingworth. And of course Winchester continued the 21 (and the 24, which outlived even all the less-expensive sxs, except Stevens and Fox B), although legend has it they lost money on every gun.
This is a silly thing to say. The NID line is a great part of the American doubleguns
You may think so......and maybe in 75 years someone will worship Mossbergs too......
To each his own...
I wouldn't own a LC Smith if someone gave it to me. Talk about a whacked design. The only gun I know of that most good stockmakers and some gunsmiths wont touch. Call Abe Chaber and ask him what he thinks of Smiths....then call Paul Hodgins and ask him what he thinks of Smiths...A Baker Batavia has more appeal to me than a Smith A-1. Elsies....can you say "overrated"??
Ithacas were never cheap guns. Take a look at the old catalogs and compare prices. Ithaca's were strong, somewhat simple and innovative (read up on the Flues lock time) and the engraving, wood work, etc were second to none. The checkering on mid and high grade Ithacas is a thing to behold and the engraving on the high grade guns....spectacular. The sculpting of the Crass action in grades 4 and above is art in itself. NID's are the best value out there in American double guns bar none. For some reason...I dont see anyone turning down a 4E or higher (especially a Sousa grade)Ithaca gun if it were being "given" to them. Gimme a break.
This is a pic of my 14 year old sons bird gun, a 16 bore, Ithaca NID, circa 1936, 6 lbs. 6 oz. 28" bbls. Used, but gently, insides are like new. I'm into this gun for right around a grand. Thanks Walt Snyder.
A couple of things the Remington 94's and 1900's don't have going for them is the shape of the action and the graded guns are hard to find and extremely rare. The action on a Remmy really is just a big bulky box. The guns are hell for stout, the internals nicely finished, but the actions are just not very appealing. I like em, have friends that own them, but they are just not for me.
Dustin
Got the matey for you boy's 30's NID, Dustin, (think it's '35) and I also was in for slightly under 1K$. (Did have a little bit of that all-important "condition" (residue of ephemera that the collectors desire). Anyone thinking of giving King Brown an Ithaca double and fearing rejection rest assured I will give your gun a home.
The "starting from scratch" hypothesis is interesting. Given American druthers in the same-old vs. startlingly new dept., you'd think the flirtation with "auteur" gunmaking would have appealed. Remington certainly liked "updates" and both makers were around in the 19th century so they must have had some success with the new model approach until the Depression truncated commercial expectations.
jack
I agree with you, Pete. They're enough to make a gun-lover drool. They're real guns with real Old World craftsmanship, to my eye faultless, deserving of being taken afield anywhere.
Like certain wonderful aircraft, women, motor vehicles, boats, outboards, tools, etc they just don't register with me. My guns are all pretty plain except for my Francotte, LC Specialty and Sauer.
Thanks for that post, Ithaca5e. I learn something every day.
Jack O'Connor had very good things to say about them. Of course he also liked 21's, so you may question his taste.
Interesting that John Olin's company developed the 3 1/2" 10ga magnum shell . . . but, rather than making the big guns as Model 21's, with their reputation for strength, Olin went to Lou Smith at Ithaca. The first 10ga mags were NID's. Says something about the strength of the action.
Dustin, I've heard more than one wood guy cuss an Elsie. Interestingly, I was exchanging emails with one just the other day, and he had similar sentiments about the sideplated Lefevers.
Really shabby work here, eh? A 1918 Sousa grade.
This is a silly thing to say. The NID line is a great part of the American doubleguns
You may think so......and maybe in 75 years someone will worship Mossbergs too......
To each his own... Teddy already does...
If you were interested in a decent shooter, with both modern stock dimensions and modern steel, the NID is perfect. Looks are a personal thing. Look at how many people marry ladies you would not be caught dead with or worse, who hunt with ugly dogs.
I wouldn't own an Ithaca if it was given to me.
I'm with you and jOe on that one King............
If anyone ever tries to give either of you guys one of those ugly Ithacas just send it to me.
I love Ithaca doubles, but then again I'd take a '69 Charger or a '67 Corvette over a vintage Porche or Ferarri any day of the week. I actually think the NID indicator pin receiver is very handsome.
When compared to cars.....Even the high grade Ithaca's are more like'n to a dolled up '66 Rambler.
I have never actually gone out of my way to buy an Ithaca double, but at one time, last year, ended up owning 3 of them. Hunted em all, liked em all but didnt keep any of them. Amarillo Mike wanted to buy the 32" ejector gun, but was too slow on the draw.....THAT one, I wish I'd kept...
Scott,
Seeing that you are from Texas, here is an analogy.
Suppose that you know of a thousand acre tract with 200 coveys of quail.
Invite some people to hunt it and some will complain about heat, the thorns, the cactus, the snakes, the walking too far between coveys, maybe even the type of dog or how pretty it is... other people will feel like they are in heaven.
Some people are worth inviting, but there is little reason to share the hunting tract with the whiners.
I believe Pete Hiatt coined the phrase " butt ugly" to describe the Ithaca doubles ( and M21s ) from time to time.
I think a good part of the answer is that most commonly available Ithaca doubles are simply not as pretty as comparable guns from Parker, Smith and Fox. I have at least one of each, and the Ithaca (Flues 12) looks a bit clumsy next to the others.
Somewhere I've read that action bars cracked in the smaller gauge Flues (thin walls)
Engraving a Flues must have been like painting a bus
I wouldn't own an Ithaca if it was given to me
Yes, Ithaca's are under appreciated, under valued
Looks are a personal thing. Look at how many people marry ladies you would not be caught dead with
When compared to cars.....Even the high grade Ithaca's are more like'n to a dolled up '66 Rambler.
Hunted em all, liked em all, but didn't keep any of them
You can heap all the engraving you want on your Yugo, but at the end of the day it is still a Yugo......
Yes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and as PeteM mentions the Ithaca's are under valued, so could it be that there just is not a majority of 'beholders'.....?.....
While most people can agree on what makes a good internal design,good workmanship and quality of materials it is up to the beholder to assign a grade for "beauty" or "fineness of line."I think the Ithacas are a bit "boxy" in general as far as the frames go,but some are very appealing because of the wood and or engraving. Kind of like the Williams sisters versus the Romanian womens gymnastics team.They all have appeal on some level.
Or you can heap all the engraving and nice wood you want on an Ithaca and 90 yrs. later have a graded double with some condition that a bottom feeder can almost afford. Course I've never tried to drive an Ithaca to work and have yet to see an engraved YUGO so I'd be hard pressed to say if the comparison is valid.
Flues 4e double
Flues 4e SBT
'35 NID
I37 "Deerslayer" slug gun
I37 Commemorative with 3 barrels and Mr. Smith on the side. Had a couple of "snail ears" from '25 but sold them."
jack
Just curious 'PA24',
How many 'ACD's do you own? Any pics?
If you get a chance to go through the museum, please give a tip of the hat to the American Flag that my Grandfather bought and hung above his work bench. His 'kids' thought it was proper to donate it. Or do you collect Yugos?
No doubt joe owns a rambler or pinto or two, and is an expert.
I looked at that one Monday night and started to bid. I agree there was some value there...Geo
Well fellas, I guess I'm just a Rambler kind of guy cuz I just bought that one last night.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=183212279
Hope you can hit anything with it...the stock dimensions look kinda sad.
Nice NID. A very fair price.
Pete
The only NID I want back is a mint 32" vent rib 20 gauge field grade. It was one sleek gun. I let it go, turned it over to a friend who is only interested in 32" guns. The gun was probably made post 1950 from the most leftover of leftover parts, but fitted very well. It is quite a gun. My other Ithacas are Knicks in Victory, 4E, and 5E, wonderful guns all three.
I looked over a nice NID 3E 20 bore about 4 years ago at a gun show- smallish beavertail, pg with cap and red Sunbursting pad, SST, Ejectors- std. flat rib- Dealer said it had 28" barrels, but when I scaled them with my trusty Stanley tape rule- I got 26 & 5/8" each time- and you could see the hacksaw teeth marks faintly in the rib keels at the muzzle-
He was asking $2500 for it- I did ask permission to dis-assemble it- the numerical choke marks on the barrel flats were 3 for the right barrel and 4 for the left- or Imp. Mod and Full- so my guess is- some grouse hunter shortened the tubes to get more open patterns-
Did Ithaca NID's have the wide array of frame sizes as did the Parkers?
The stock on clampdaddy's "star" variant is cranked down pretty low as JoE notes. Look back at Dustin's 16 from the thirties; much straighter comb; different idea on how to get the wood on the wood.
jack
Hope you can hit anything with it...the stock dimensions look kinda sad.
I'm by no means a great shot but I'm lucky in that I can pick up most any shotgun and shoot it as mediocrely well as any other...except for one. My Browning Maxus. I bought it last duck season and I can break clay all day with it but I've had a heckuva time with it while hunting. Shimmed the stock and I still shoot high unless I have time to mount the gun and get the barrel lined up before the shot.
Heck at the price you bought it for have the whole gun restocked to fit you. A field grade Ithaca 12 gauge ain't holding much value original or otherwise.
My NID is a good reliable workhorse traditional double. I don't pretend this gun is a Purdy or Holland & Holland or any of the nice Italian doubles. It's an Ithica NID. If you can pick one up for +/- $500 to $1,000, it sure beats the heck out of paying the same money for a new 870 etc.
I recently had the chance to shoot a Maxus. A brand new line that is a Sporting Clays edition with the most beautiful grade of wood I have ever seen on an autoloader. It was the only one in this country. This was a really nice shooting gun, but I do not want to hijack this thread so I apologize for getting side tracked.
Hope you can hit anything with it...the stock dimensions look kinda sad.
I'm by no means a great shot but I'm lucky in that I can pick up most any shotgun and shoot it as mediocrely well as any other...except for one. My Browning Maxus. I bought it last duck season and I can break clay all day with it but I've had a heckuva time with it while hunting. Shimmed the stock and I still shoot high unless I have time to mount the gun and get the barrel lined up before the shot.
I dont want what I said taken out of context. I got the 3 Ithacas I mentioned from a local farmer, who had picked them up at farm sales over the years. They were too good to pass up at the price. I shot them, as I said, hunted them, and liked them. I didnt find anything ugly or particularly clumsy about them. BUT I am a Lefever guy,and dont keep much except those. FYI: I picked up a Parker from the same gentleman, didnt keep it eother...
