As part on the new health care bill for Jan 2012: On page 737 it states that if we( applies to all) purchase goods or services from businesses, individuals, etc, and that amount is over $600 in a calender year, that you get a 1099 and the purchaser must report this to the government. Before we only had to do this with unincorperated firms, individuals who have a business and that are not incorporated. They are trying to push that up to $5000, but that has not gone through yet. They are also wanting to repeal this (Republicans)

This will be law!

Regards

John Boyd
Quality Arms

IF you do not mo

The "Gun Show Loophole" as presented by McCain and others has nothing to do with the illegal sale of guns. The real loophole is a financial one. The vast majority of gun sales at shows are for cash and therefore untracable and unreported today. The Government(s) whose need for money is insatiable would like to close this loophole and reap the tax rewards. The item buried in the Obamacare bill is an attempt to close this loophole.
Jim

I can see the Jack Booted Thugs prowling the yard sales and swap meets now, taking pix and passing out 1099's. I can bet the scene at the Indian casinos will be very similar with a JBT beside every slot and game table.
What is this world coming to???

Dr.WtS

Only businesses, not all of us, are required to report purchases of $600 or more. Sales between individuals who are not in the business are not required to be reported on form 1099.

german democratic republic under the sword & shield of the stasi.

Yep, it was buried in the health care bill. Business must start their record keeping January 1, 1012 with the 1099Misc's to be issued by January 31, 2013 for the first year.

Any BUSINESS making a payment to another business or an individual must issue a 1099Misc if the cummulative amount paid for the year is $600 or more. Previously 1099Misc's were only issued to report payments for services; beginning in 2012 it includes all purchases except those made to governments or by credit card. Credit cards will be exempt because beginning in 2011 the credit card processor must report the amount remitted to a business on a 1099 and if the business making the payment reported it there would be a double reporting of the same payment.

I'm a CPA and the American Institute of CPA's, along with many other organizations and the IRS's own Taxpayer Advocate are calling for the repeal of this monstrosity.

If you hold an FFL you are a business.
Jim

If you hold an FFL and sell guns, are you not already supposedly paying the excise tax on firearms to the feds? Buyer pays you, you keep records, the (hidden, as far as the buyer is concerned) 10 or 11% goes to Uncle Sam. Or am I misunderstanding that?

Larry, the excise tax is paid by the manufacturer not the FFL dealer selling the firearm.

The principal taxes the various government entities are concerned with here are income tax(federal and perhaps state) and sales tax(state and perhaps local municipalities. I got into it with my State taxing office that wanted me to collect and pay sales tax even though I only do 1 or 2 shows a year and just sell items out of my own personal collection.
They finally backed off on this.
Jim

Our monster Pac Man govt. at work. I thought Clinton said back in '94, "The era of big govt. is over."

Lets say, I sell a gun at a loss and get a 1099 from the buyer. Can I take the loss on my taxes? Does this mean I'd have to itemize my gun buying and selling on my 1040 to justify profit/loss? The documentation is going to be a nightmare.

I am not into double guns to make money. I don't mind a small hit to enjoy something and then move on to scratch a different itch. But to pay taxes on the sale amount when I lost money on a deal is a bit much.

I know the IRS hasn't written the rules yet. I hope the NRA jumps on this or someone runs against the ruling party candidates on this issue this fall.

Joe

This, if true, sounds as idiotic as the many gun sellers, on KSL.COM in particular, who say "I'll only sell it to you if you'll sign a bill of sale". HUH? The seller gives the buyer a bill of sale, not the other way around. It's a receipt, stupid! Like going to Wal*Mart and you giving the checker a receipt for your basket of purchases.

Joe, it's gonna be a f*****g mess. The record keeping time and costs will probably cause a number of my clients to close very small part-time businesses which will reduce tax revenue to the government.

Judy and I will be in Charlotte tomorrow night for supper. If you want to see me turn purple just buy me a Guiness and ask me about this governmental FUBAR. I can just about guarantee you that I will turn purple and remember my old army sergeant vocabulary. Please cover Judy's ears first.

For you "few" who always [censored] and moan about things and never
contacted your representatives, why don't you call them now. You can find the numbers on the internet or most phone books have it in the front.

Write a letter or spend 7 cent a minute to call their aid and express your displeasure!

John Boyd
Quality Arms

So I sell a gun at auction or to a dealer for $1700.00. I paid $2200.00 for it but that happened years ago and I can't prove it. What will the IRS do, assume I paid nothing for it and add $1700.00 to my taxable income? That should go over big. Come on, John, tell me how you think this will play out if nothing is done to delete this paragraph from the legislation. We're back to my old analogy about buying a lawnmower at a yard sale and selling it for more money than I paid for it ten years later. Are the dems going to tax us on the profit? Is this country going to put up with such crap?

John

My congressman lied, more than most, to get elected last time. He has stopped listening. He will hear from a lot of people in November and he will not like their message. He is going to get fired.

And the government is about to learn the you can not make everyone work harder for the privilege to pay more taxes. I have reduced my property taxes over fifty percent of what was due yearly as late as five years ago. My personal income taxes will be reduced by one third this year with no real net decrease in personal income. There are ways to avoid giving the government more than half of every dollar you make. You can not make me work more to keep less and pay in more in taxes. The company store is closed.

I thought the Tea Party movement was going to peter out. But it looks like it will help elect about ten percent of the Republican Congress and several Senators. That is real power if they can last just two or three elections. Perhaps there is a seed of sanity within the people calling for less and less government. For my kids sake I hope so.

1099 for gun sales is a joke. If a person sells a gun and makes money they may try to claim he needs to pay taxes on the gain. If you do not have solid proof of the original purchase price then they will claim the entire sale is a taxable gain. If he loses money they will not allow the loss. He can either carry forward to another year to off set a future gain or they will try to say the loss proves the sale was not taxable because it is a hobby and hobby expenses and hobby losses are not deductible.

If you are a "real" dealer then the 1099 is one more useless paper trail you will be force to generate and keep track of for ever. They will get more in fines for poor records than they will get for taxes collected. Take comfort in the fact the Government is warning people to not go into areas with high illegal immigration with big signs. I feel safer already.

Please Remember This:

"You will have to pass the Obama Health Care Package to find out what's in it."

Nancy Pelosi

VOTE THESE IDIOTS OUT OF OFFICE IN NOVEMBER!
Jim

First, do not just wait until election time and hope for the best. You need to contact your represenatives now. If you have time to screw around on the BBSs, you have time to make a phone call or email, or post card to express you stand

Second, for the fellow who asked about write off a loss if he sold the gun for less that he paid, the answer will be no.

This is no different than if you win big at Vegas, its reported if its over a certain amount and taxes are taken out right then.
If you lost lots of money until hit it big, you can not write the loss off, unless you are considered a professional gamber as an occupation.

I believe the CPA here can verify that.

John Boyd

I too am a CPA (long retired), so I see this a-Obama-nashun thru a different lens: Opportunity! I foresee all businesses taking the path of least resistance by using a corporate charge card to make all $600-plus purchases, thus obviating the 1099-misc bookkeeping and the reporting nuisance. Credit card service companies like Visa, MasterCard, et al are going to do a land office business. These are market-traded companies. The stocks are a Buy.

Besides, most large companies that buy and sell products, like GE, Target, Home Depot, Sears, Cabelas...make that all mid- to large companies have captive banks that issue their own charge cards; this is why these retailers are always hitting you up to use their own credit card.

This Obama slow-pitch is the busy-work bailout for the credit card industry. To think that the government is going to insinuate itself into virtually every $600 transaction...well, with half the people filing paperwork and the other half working for government, shuffling the paperwork, this cannot be good. And there is more...

My strategy in going to a gun show is to bring cash and use it as a club. After all, once I hammer down the price of a nice Parker from, say, $10,000 to $5,000, I can't really expect the "feeling pain" seller to take an out-of-state check from a virtual stranger. Cash is the universal solvent. But wait!

The last time I went to my bank to get $5,000 cash, where I have done business for 38 years, and where everyone knows me (town of 600), the teller said, "Sorry, Ed, but I need your driver's license..."

I said, "Huh?"

She explained that homeland security put the onus on all banks to report all "suspicious cash transactions," and the banks, to avoid lawsuits for "profiling," decided to shove it down the fed's throat by determining that every $3,000-plus cash transaction was suspicious and, thus, reportable (with copy of DL), even if the customer was not known to ride a camel.

Thus all $3,000-plus cash withdrawals are reported to the federal government (the $10,000-plus cash reporting is a different issue--money laundering). Is it any wonder that we are on the brink of having all our $600 plus transactions run past federal bureaucrats? And posted on U-Tube? FaceBook? doublegunshop.com? Think I'm kidding?

Isn't this the same federal government that, of late, has 15,000 of its classified national secrets posted on some foreign website that publishes leaked top secret documents. And the guy that hosts the site thumbs his nose at the Obama administration. I guess the CIA was/is too busy reviewing my $5,000 cash transaction.

Things ain't what they used to was. EDM

During the time that I ran a liquor business in nearly the highest per capita income zip code in the US, I did a great deal of my business in 1934 series one hundred dollar bills, received from blue hairs of means. These were wealthy, intelligent people who realized that the government was watching them too closely. True, they made those refrigerators full of 1934 hundreds in earlier times, maybe illegally, but they realized what was coming. "What Was Coming" was that our Federal Government would be looking deeper than just illegal activities in the future. They were right, now they are looking at anyone who can feed the welfare trough. I would recommend to our younger people that they ignore the "investment" concept and keep saved cash in mattresses or invest in their own business or property. Except for thieves and politicians, those who invested in mattress money and independent business are the ones who survived the recent emergency.

eightbore, I call that method making a deposit in the
'Bank of Sealey".

I see two Objectives, that the Evil Party has in mind:

1. Control, of everything, toliets, lightbulbs, guns, healthcare, and so on.

2. Money, every cent that you obtain, that they do not take, is lost revenue.

You Obamaniacs wanted Change, and you shall have it.

Unfortunately the desire to control all money outlays IMO spans parties and beliefs. One of the reasons I've been told,off the record, of course is that gun shows flea markets and the like are despised by politicians is because they are cash venues for the most part. The transactions are untracable and therefore untaxable. This,as you all know, is also true of the Internet and most States have been steadily whining about this situation. Don't expect this to continue forever.
Jim

Yes Jim you are correct, the Stupid Party is sometimes nearly as bad as the Evil Party.

AND WORSE YET! The 1099 reporting only has to do with business transactions as written, and as it was slipped through as a health measure. Worrying about gun show or flea marker transactions is the least of our future tax problems.

Consider this: Once all businesses gear up to report every $600-plus purchase transaction on a 1099-misc., the bookkeeping template will be in place to reduce the introductory amount of $600 to dollar one, simply by regulation. Once all purchase/sell transactions are lodged in the federal computers, the stage is set for a Value Added Tax.

VAT is a sales tax levied at every point of sale, from raw materials to manufactured product, through distribution, wholesale, retailer, and consumer; essentially a national sales tax to support Obama-care. No wonder the 1099 trick was buried in the health care law. EDM

So there's no excise tax requirement if a dealer sells a used gun?

That is correct.

There is lots in that 2700 page obamacare people don't know about.
How about the 3.8% home tax,did you know that?

"Tax on Home Sales. Imposes a 3.8 percent tax on home sales and other real estate transactions. Middle-income people must pay the full tax even if they are “rich” for only one day – the day they sell their house and buy a new one."

http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/surpris...tax-in-history/

Chains you can believe in.

The 3.8% "home tax" is irrelevant for the most part--the first $500,000 of profit on a principal residence is excluded from all federal tax ($250,000 for single taxpayers). One of the few tax benefits of the Clinton years.

Wait till inflation kicks in.......

Wrong,
investment income including home sales will be taxed 3.8% if its over 250k (couples)or 200k single.

One of the previous posts was incorrect. Financial institutions are only required to report CASH transactions of $10,000 or more.

And there are exceptions for businesses that regularly do so, such as supermarkets or liquor stores.

There are situations requiring reporting below $10,000. Here's a link to one of IRS's web pages. IRS Web Page Note that many businesses and financial institutions report all amounts that "might" be suspicious just to avoid the trap of "you should have thought that it was suspicious".

Gentlemen, In the Weimar Republic there was a rule which I see on our horizon, to whit. " Everything which is not expressly permitted is strictly forbidden."
David

Well actually you are wrong on this count. You are not alone, I have seen this bandied about several time by people who don't have a decent grasp on it.

If you make over 200k as a individual or 250k filing jointly & you sell your home for a profit above the Capital Gains threshold of 250,000 per individual or $500,000 per couple you will pay a additional 3.8% tax on the profit OVER that thresold. This is not a new tax that will generally affect the vast majority of people who buy and sell their homes. It will affect those that are very affluent or high earners.

Pretty sure this "rumor" came from a inaccurate written piece by a Paul Guppy of the conservative Washington Policy Institute. It has been debunked several times.

It never ceases to amaze me that some people who have absolutely nothing to add, nevertheless, go ahead and post it anyway.

If jerry66stl had actually read and understood the previous post that he claims, with zero authority, to be "incorrect," he would find that the post, in material respects says:

"...Homeland Security put the onus on all banks to report 'suspicious transactions'...and the banks, to avoid lawsuits for 'profiling,' decided to shove it down the Fed's throat...thus all $3,000-plus [cash] transactions are reported to the Federal Government..."

So, jerry66stl, why don't you tell us what is actually incorrect about the above quote...or my original post taken as a whole.

The above quoted bank policy was recommended by the trade group to which my bank belongs here in Illinois. Homeland Security gave no "safe harbor" criteria by which the bankers are to judge suspicion, pro or con. So, as I said, the "...banks, to avoid lawsuits for 'profiling'..." instituted the policy to report all $3,000-plus transactions. I have not tested the system in NYC or San Francisco, where I don't bank. I am certain, however, as a former bank auditor (CPA), and as former legal consul for a banking group, that the Homeland Security-inspired/required reports of "suspicious transactions" have triggered similar responses nationwide. The only way you are going to know about it is to actually go to your bank and get a relatively large sum of cash.

This "red herring" is a good example of what is all too endemic to these sorts of websites: People with no original thoughts of their own feel that they must be heard, and the best they can do is inject silly statements about the probity of prior posts, when, upon scrutiny, it becomes apparent that they haven't read or understood.

As I said in my prior post, the $3,000 bank policy threshold is different from the Federally required $10,000 cash reports in re: the money-laundering regs. Now do you get it jerry?

The banking regulations on this topic are very clear.

Any cash deposit or withdrwal of more than $10,000 must be reported -- except for those businesses that have a specific exemption; due to paperwork previously submitted and approved. The exception applies to businesses that deal regularly with that bank or credit union and regularly have high volume cash transactions such as supermarkets, liquor stores, amusement parks, etc.

There is a another federal requirement that these same financial institutions must report any "suspicous transaction" -- regardless of amount -- if the financial institution suspects illegal activity.

The supposed intent of these regulations was to help police catch drug dealers, money launderers, and tax cheaters. Most of the bankers I regularly work with have not found these regulations to be onerous. Likewise, we also haven't seen very many successful prosecutions result from these regulations. Crooks don't walk into our lobbies and try to deposit large amounts of cash.

While someone's ego may be tender, these banking regulations have very little to do with the purchase and sale of firearms by honest citizens.

In my state of WA the Democrat/Comm-u-crat controlled legislature passed a law to collect sales tax on firearms transfers so that when buying a firearm that is transfered in from out of state the buyer is supposed to pay tax on the ENTIRE(!)amount of the transaction plus the cost of the transfer fee. In my view this tax is really and truly outrageousand and seems designed to kill firearm purchases and sales. Soap Box time: From my view these Dem bast**ds are all about killing business and taking total control of the economy. Paying a State Tax (9%) plus filing a 1099 on a Firearm sale leaves me with no incentive to buy or sale a firearm what-so-ever. What a croc. I for one hope the Dems are politically destroyed (at all levels) for ignoring the people of this country. I urge everyone to Vote in Novemeber if for no other reason to let the Dems know that the people do have power, do have a voice and do have a means (voting) to make change happen. To quote the former Govoner of AK: "How is that Hopey changey thing working for you?" For me...not so well and since my Democratic Rep ignored the majority and voted with Baaaaaracck (The name echos like a Parots chortle!)the people are going to boot him out of office. November can't come soon enough for me! (With apologies for the rant but my frustrations run deep!)

I am not an accountant or tax expert. It looks to me after 1/1/12 if I see a nice doublegun for sale at a dealer say for $10,000 and I trade a gun I have had for years or a family gun and get $6000 in trade I will get a 1099 for $6000. So what is my cost basis for my trade? What if I don't have any receipts? What I spent money on some repairs or restoration? It seems suddenly I have a reportable capital gain I will taxed on. Since this law kicks in on 1/1/12 can one have an appraisal done establishing a cost basis prior to 1/1/12 for tax purposes? If this law goes through I see far fewer collectable guns showing up in dealers such Cabela's Gun Library due to the tax implications.

As to the Dems being politically destroyed, we should, for a moment, reflect back on the Republicans, who controlled both houses of congress during a term of a Republican president, and left us this legacy:

The Alternate Minimum Tax was not indexed to inflation, so every year since, congress must act to avoid the impact of this crazy thing on 25,000,000 to 20,000,000 taxpayers in the middle to lower brackets. Do you know that the AMT test (extra form) applies if you got free government $$$ to buy a Hi-Bred car? Are you aware that congress--both Dems and Reps--often delay their 11th-hour AMT bailout so late that the IRS has to reprint forms? It is late September and we have no idea what the tax situation will be this year or next, not just AMT but most all federal taxes: What a way to run a country!

How about the estate tax: If someone of moderate means checked out in 2008, the estate tax exemption was $2.0M; last year it was $3.5M; this year there is no estate tax--die with $100 billion and your kids get it tax free. But in a short 100 days the estate tax reverts to everything over a $1,000,000 exemption starting at a 55% rate. George Jr's legacy...

As in an earlier post, the government requires reports of all $10,000 cash transactions, supposedly for money laundering investigations. Recently the government told banks to report "suspicious transactions" involving cash to Homeland Security; the banks I am aware of now report any cash transaction of $3,000 and up to Homeland Security in an effort to avoid federally-contrived civil rights lawsuits for profiling ($3,000 is Arab-neutral). You think I'm kidding?

Recently an AP news item cited that the feds are gearing up to take on businesses that screen job applicants on the basis of felony conviction(s). It seems that some government bean counters discovered that a disproportionate percentage of convicted felons are people of color and, thus, using felony convictions as a disqualifying factor in hiring is prima facia discrimination against minorities. Thank you BHO.

Just last week there was a Yahoo! Finance article about the "Eight Things You Can't Ask a Job Applicant" if you are an employer: GET THIS! You can't ask someone applying for a job if he/she is in the country legally or their citizenship or immigration status (only after you offer them a job can you ask these questions). GO FIGURE!. As Pogo of 1940s-50s-60s comic strip fame famously said: "We have found the enemy and he is us."

As to the WA law to collect "sales taxes" on out of state purchases, this is old news. Most if not all states that levy a sales tax have laws on the books to collect "use tax" on out of state purchases. This use tax is collected on mail order purchases by sellers who have multi-state stores, for example, L. L. Bean from Maine has at least one store in Illinois, so when I order stuff from MA, I get charged the IL tax. If I ordered from Montana, where there is no sales tax, I wouldn't be charged tax. As to the use tax cited by J. Stephens, he correctly says that "...the buyer is supposed to pay tax..." the operative word being "supposed." We are all supposed to pay use tax, and there is even a special line on the IL income tax form, but until there is some national reporting of all buy/sell transactions this is all but impossible to enforce...BUT WAIT...

Now the national 1099 law was slipped through as part of health reform. As pogo said, "We have found the enemy and he is U.S."

The only way any of this incredible crap will get revised or eliminated is when public revulsion reaches a level high enough to replace those that support it.
If we can get some of the most dispicable members of Congress out of office in November it will be a step in the right direction. The only reason we don't have a rash of new "gun laws" to contend with is Obama even now doesn't have the votes to enact them. The REAL damage he's done, and it will be his legacy, is the two socialist Supreme Court appointments.
We need to start taking our Country back and the only way we can do it is ONE STEP AT A TIME! Go and VOTE in November.
Jim

I agree. But I see a problem, not necessarily this November with the helter-skelter congressional races and disorganized Tea Party, but two years hence, if the Republican party doesn't have some charismatic face-man step in front of the mob, capture the spirit of the times, and make it a well-organized parade.

The Republican National Committee has become a non-entity, exercising no cohesion or leadership: Does anybody even know who runs the RNC office on the hill? My daughter worked for the RNC during Frank Fahrenkopf's and Lee Atwater's leadership, during the Reagan and Bush Sr. years. The Republican leadership was then page-one news, because they had something to offer. Sarah is a poison pill, who is about as unelectable as Rush Limbaugh. Where is Newt and a latter-day Contract With America? It's one thing to be against the current state of affairs, but quite another to construct a national party platform based solely on not being BHO.

"ONE STEP AT A TIME" may be the charm this November, and we can only hope that Republicans get control of both houses, which will put a stop to the economic madness (like during the Clinton administration). But for a veto-proof majority in both houses to put the genie back in the bottle: Don't hold your "baited" breath. The real question will be answered after the up-coming elections: Is there an electable leader of the Republican party who can strike a responsive chord with the greater number of those not happy with the present state of affairs, while not pandering to the one-topic voters who have their heads where the sun doesn't shine?

Investigation continues. EDM

Quote:
"The real question will be answered after the up-coming elections: Is there an electable leader of the Republican party who can strike a responsive chord with the greater number of those not happy with the present state of affairs, while not pandering to the one-topic voters who have their heads where the sun doesn't shine?"

Unfortunately I don't see another Ronald Reagan on the Republican horizon either. We've got less than two years to find a viable presidential candidate and it must not be another retread like McCain. I personally like Sarah Palen but IMO she's voting booth poison in a National election. I think the majority of voters in this Country are already fed up with Obama antics and are more than ready for a real "Change".
Jim