My vote goes for the Baikal (though it is a little lumpy) and definately one of the CZ's by Huglu. I have a 28 ga. and love it. Keep the price under a grand. Chops

That selection would be hard to argue with Chops and their prices are very attractive. On some of the other boards you see constant arguments back and forth over their overall quality. Mainly you hear someone said he got a real good one and another said he got a real stinker and that in itself strikes me that their over all quality assurance programs may have to improve. Similar to the Ruger Red Label where you have some people swear by them and some swear at them. But for an entry level NEW side by side the Huglu is hard to beat, especially when they are sporting one of those outrageous pieces of Turkish walnut.

I've heard of a couple people that have had problems with CZ's. A shooting friend bought a .410 Bobwhite in which his reloads and at least one brand of factory loads wouldn't chamber well. He sent it back, figuring they'd probably polish the chambers a bit. They sent him a new gun. From what I've heard about CZ, if you do have a problem, their customer service is excellent.

Why would anyone CARE what was the best buy in a new sxs when used buys are so much better? The world seems to have lots of SKB 100's for $1K and less, a great gun and worlds better than a new Baikal or CZ. New prices on Uggies are to the moon, but used ones can be had all over the ballpark, and straight grip, double trigger Uggies in 20 ga are a very svelte, good handling gun! If you really must have a new gun, my nomination is the 20 ga S&W from CDNN, $1190 on closeout! Problem is, the S&W isn't a proven, trouble free gun, like the SKB's and Uggies.

I've got three of them - baikals, that is. One is new - same thing as are on the market today. What can I say? It works, never failed (double trigger non-ejector - what's there to fail?), it's strong, patterns great. But it doesn't feel like a sbs ought to. In fact, it feels like a log. Even Benelly semis balance better.

Now, the old ones (1958 and 196something) - they're OK, they feel like doubles, a bit too much wight-forward, but a definitly sbs feel. And the quality is much better. So, while Baikals are quite good value as compared to other brand-new offerings, the feel is all there is about a sbs. So I'm with danross70 - older is better.

While the used SKB's and Uggies are indeed good guns, they lack the flexibility of choke tubes. A person purchasing his first SxS might be better off having choke tubes so that he/she could hunt ALL GAME, and shoot any or ALL of the clay games.

The CZ/HUGLU gets my vote as the best new SxS under $1k.

I very much agree with Dan, on this one. A used, good gun is always a better buy than a poorly made, cheap, new one. JMO. You can buy Browning Superposeds and BSSs for around $1000

Or better yet you can find very nice 12 gauge Fox Stelingworth's at about the same price. Sorry to say a 16 gauge will be about one and one half as much and a 20 gauge will be about double but both are well worth it. And with the Fox you are getting a true American Classic, not some import without soul.

I also agree with Dan. I have a model 30 Uggie and a model 100 Ithaca. I think either is better than the new entry level turkish guns. As far as choke tube go, I think they are vastly over rated. I shoot a lot of sporting clays and rarely switch chokes.

Cabelas has Smith and Wesson Gold elite shotguns on sale for $1300.00! They are normally $2500.00. I bought one I consider it a steal of a deal.

I got to handle one of the CZ doubles at a NRA banquet in Mesa,AZ last Saturday nite. Sighting down the barrels was like looking at the Atlantic Ocean on a stormy day. I swear my 10 year old grandson could do a better job of draw filing.
Jim

Who makes the Gold Elite? S&W or outsouce?

The Gold Elite is made by the Turks under contract w/ Smith and Wesson. They are really good guns. Based loosely on a Mackay Brown trigger plate action gun. Some purists may scoff at them, but ask yourself this, would you rather have a new gun that can shoot any ammo you can put in it, or a shot-out 80 year old gun that should only be shot with special order low pressure ammo? I'd rather go hunting! IMHO

+1 on CZ, but get one with fixed chokes. Otherwise it's like sighting down a blunderbuss.

And how many "shot out 80 year old" Foxes have you owned?

I have a Sterlingworth 16 gauge made in 1924 that came from Maryland. From the looks of it when I got it it must have been used as a paddle by a Chesapeake Bay oyster man. At 86 years old it still on face, snaps shut with authority and handle "store bought" ammunition with ease.

Quote:
"I have a Sterlingworth 16 gauge made in 1924 that came from Maryland. From the looks of it when I got it it must have been used as a paddle by a Chesapeake Bay oyster man. At 86 years old it still on face, snaps shut with authority and handle "store bought" ammunition with ease."

I have a one year older(1923) 12ga Sterlingworth I've owned for over 40 years that also continues to function flawlessly. It digested numerous cases of high base "Duck Loads" for years before I or anyone else knew any better and still closes like a bank vault. The barrels are also properly draw filed as any good hardware store gun of this period would be.
Jim

No waves on these barrels; Huglu 2002 20 and barrel regulation is smack on. But all have the slight tube buldge.

I know a lot of guys who have old doubles that haven't needed any work. That said, it is the exception, and not the rule. If it weren't, guys like Kirk Merrington, Hugh Lomas, Dennis Potter, Steven Dodd Hughes, etc, the list goes on, would all be on food stamps, and, they 'ain't.
I've got one old one, that got the big fix, and while I love it to pieces, it isn't everybody's cup of tea.
Know thyself, before buying new or old.


Best,
Ted

I agree with the used, good,older is better lads here.
But to be fair, Chop's did specify "New"
If I had to keep it under 1000 for a New one, I can't think of one
that I'd be proud to own
And I have to love a Gun that I shoot...so I love my couple of old ones ...Greener 1901 Steel Hammer, & 1926 Belgian (Britte) SLE
Franc

I think the best entry level new SxS is a CZ. Those who are looking at the barrel when they are shooting have the focus on the wrong thing. Those bulges are unsightly to be sure, but the Bobwhite has quite a following.

That said, I also wouldn't buy new when the used market is so good.

Rob.

i would take lightly choked 16ga Winchester Model 12 with 26" barrel over ANY entry levels sxs.

I see left of center, loose Foxes every time I go to the gunshop.
You can't tell me that an 86 year of Fox is suitable for nitro mags, or steel shot. It may be able to get by with some light target load, but you are limiting yourself if you get an 86 year old gun. Let's face it, this board is dominated by collectors and a Fox sterlingworth is a great beginner gun for a collector, but for shooter who just wants a good entry level gun, it's best to get soemthing that doen't have to be pampered.

Remember, boys, I specified NEW. I have six or seven vintage American hardware store guns that I love. But in a NEW gun my choices still stand and I've heard that CZ customer service is excellent. Also, for what it may be worth, I've been inside of a Bobwhite and dare say it is as well finished and put together as any vintage FIELD GRADE American double, excepting a Parker. And once you've seen all the parts a Parker has it will diminish any desire to buy another. Chops

I have the S&W and CZ Bobwhite and Ringneck.

S&W with prairie chickens from SD last weekend.


S&W with Sage Grouse from MT Two weekends ago.


CZ Bobwhite and Ringneck with some snows from this spring on my farm.


CZ Bobwhite in KS from this last Jan.


Bobwhite with ND Ruffed Grouse from last winter


CZ Bobwhite with opening day pheasant in ND.


I have killed a pile of birds with the Bobwhite over the last 6 years. I have English and American doubles, but for a good servicable field gun the Bobwhite is hard to beat.

I just purchased the S&W this summer and have enjoyed shooting it. It has way better fit and finish, but it was also more money. So far I have about a 1,000 rounds through it with no problems. I shot a limit of sharptail yesterday after work with it. Very nice for carrying long distances when hunting prairie birds. It is the only negative thing I have to say about the Bobwhite. They are a tad heavy for that kind of hunting which is why I bought the S&W. If the CZ was not dependable I wouldn't be taking with to Africa next summer bird hunting. IMO the CZ is better than the Bakail. Probably not mechanically any better, but finish they certainly are. Plus they are stocked decently, not made to look like a 2x4 with barrels.

IM,
Well put. I have had my manhood questioned EVERY time I report similar findings with Fox guns on this site-there have been several photos of blown up Fox guns here, not just barrels, which is usually an obstruction, but, frames cracked through the pins on the side.
Stand by for some of the same.
I get a creepy feeling when I handle Japanese or Turkish guns-it is just me, and I take full responsibility for it, and hope no-one else is troubled by it. Me, I'd keep saving and go Uggy model 30 if new was of primary concern (it 'ain't, and I bought a 1972 vintage American Imports 1302 that needed some love from Cole Haugh to be fitted to me-I fully expect to take the gun to Spain early next year for some driven bird shooting, and will have WAY less than 1K into a fitted,A&D non ejector, double trigger, boxlock, with a hidden Purdey third fastener, magnum proof, and a spare set of strikers and tool for same) before I bought anything from Turkey.
Old, used, double guns spook me. Especially really old used doubles. I don't agree with much PJ puts up, but, really old used pump guns give me no such misgivings.


Best,
Ted

I get a creepy feeling when I hand over good American dollars for anything new. Which is why I buy used guns. And cheap ones if I can find them.

The CZs look fine to me, but they'll depreciate faster than a used car. And never be worth what you paid for them. Whereas a good used gun MAY appreciate. May not, too, if you pay too much for it from jump street.

If it must be new and I planned to keep it for life, (i.e. not harvest my investment except through time) I'd get a CZ on my budget out of necessity. But "new" is a restricting requirement. I think there are so many good used guns, I doubt I've give CZs a second look.

As for Japanese guns, my Win 23 is a fine shotgun, well-finished and strong. I'm not against mixed heritage, as you can see.

Ted, I used to get that same feeling about Japanese guns because I am old enough to remember all the stamped tin trash they exported after the war (WW-2) but I'd put my Miroku Mod.500 against any of the nice field grade American vintage guns. I had that same feeling about Turkish guns as the first Huglu guns I saw ten-15 years ago were TERRIBLE, slanted ribs, horrible fitting, etc. However since DeHann and CZ brought them into their lines, I have seen no more junk Huglus. JM2C. Chops

Like I said, it's all my fault, and I take responsibility for it. I KNOW the Miroku-san are good guns, but, just about any continental or English boxlock speaks to me at a higher level.
If it has double triggers, anyway.

Best,
Ted

I've owned a couple of Jap shotguns and handled a few Turkish ones...there is something they just can't put on a shotgun I don't know what it is maybe it's just class.

Why the strong connection to the pump Ted ?

'Because it is the most purely American form of repeater, jOe, further developed and put to use here, and completely efficient in design, use, and purpose. They can rightfully be considered "maintenance free" when compared to a double, or most autoloaders. I consider them "repeater, 101" and anyone who has completed a gun safety course WITHOUT learning to handle one hasn't completed a gun safety course, IMHO-people who hand a newbie a single shot at gun safety class soon come to realize that newbies don't stick with single shots for very long if they don't have to.
My very first repeater was a Remington model 17, a gun so well thought out, executed, and efficient that it allowed me to concentrate on hunting and dog skills without regard to anything else. There were reasons pumps pretty much replaced doubles in the American field, jOe and you can choose to ignore that, or, celebrate it.
That is why I own and shoot both.
Wanna' buy a wood stocked Stupid Black Eagle, jOe? The Remington 17 'ain't for sale, however.

Best,
Ted

If depreciation is part of the value equation, then the Uggie in any gauge but 12 would get my vote. I bought a new Lion Country grade 1 in 16, and it was a fantastic gun. Light, thin barrels, no unsightly choke bulges, 6.25 lbs, nice wood, great case color, etc. I have never owned a Baikal or CZ, but to be brutally honest, I've seen fence posts with nicer wood. The S&W doesn't have a track record (and their falling prices aren't a good sign either), so if buying new, I would stick with the Uggie.

All that said, I sold the Uggie to buy a 100 yr old used gun.

Ted If I had it to do over I would buy a left hand wood stocked SBE.

I thought the pump replaced doubles because of price and fire power.....I'm not ignoring or celebrating it.

Boys, has the BSS or SKB S/b/S doubles lost value? Don't make me laugh. If Huglu went out of business tomorrow there would be such a scarcity of S/b/S that CZ Huglus would be snapped up just as the afore mentioned guns did And by the way, Ted, my Miruko Mod. 500 is a 12 bore, BT forend (which I hate) 30" M&F, with double triggers! Thanks for all the input and your honesty. Chops

Chops, I have both a CZ Ringneck and S&W Gold Elite. Both will knock down as many birds as you can hit. The S&W has nicer wood and a bone case color whereas my CZ has plain wood and a cyanide finish. The CZ has a better wood to metal fit than my S&W. The S & W has fixed chokes and has more of an elegant feel, but either one will do you just fine. Since Cabela's has the S&W on sale for 1300 I would get that one.-IM