I'm off to Vintagers. I'll be at the event on Sat & Sun.

I'll post updates to my blog on Sat & Sun, along with pics of guns and other cool stuff I see.

Thanks

OWD

I am presently in rural Nokesville VA, camped at our daughter's place in the Road Trek, ready to drive over to Pintail Point early Saturday with Ed Jr. I have attended most of Ray P's Vintage Cups since the first in 1997 at Addieville RI. See y'all there. EDM

I will be there Saturday trolling a NID for sale. Nats Braves game tonight, I am sure I will look and feel my best in the morning.

I was there today. Unpleasantly hot. Everybody was sweating even under cover in the shade. Seemed smaller than prior years, although my buddy who was there last year (I wasn't) said it was about the same size as last year.

Lots of nice stuff, including a spectacular pair of side-plated Guyot 16 gauges in Steve Barnett's inventory. I'm trying to decide which child I'll miss the least when I sell one in order to finance buying them.

I don't know if management cracked down, but there were far fewer non-doubles, particularly rifles, than in prior years, although there were some spectacular restorations by Turnbull, mostly Winchester lever actions. Only saw two Darnes and two Manufrance Ideals. Three Dicksons, although one was cracked through the wrist during its airplane trip and disappeared off the table by the afternoon. William Larking Moore had two David McCay Browns, one O/U and one SxS. My buddy refers to DMBs as lottery guns, as in that's what I'll buy if I ever win the lottery. Galazan's was there with a number of the new O/U in various grades. The higher grades really are spectacular. They also had a number of exhibition level Foxes, which are a bit too far over the top for my taste, but really are extremely impressive examples of engraving technique. None of the Italian ladies this year from either Fausi or A&S. Parker collectors had their own tent, L.C. Smith and Fox collectors had tables inside the large tents. Griffin & Howe had a delightful Krieghoff break action single shot sidelock rifle, with a quite spectacular $30K plus price tag. Don't need a 7x57 stalking rifle quite that much. Fair number of double rifles including some small bores. Took notes on a Peterlongo hammer gun in 9.3x72R with a folding tang adjustable peep sight and claw mount bases. Might be just the thing for Pennsylvania whitetail in the woods if it were fitted with rings and a Leupold 1.5-5x scope.

Some non-gun/hunting items, mostly jewelry or Vintager's dress-up.

Not sure it was worth the almost 3 hour drive each way, but it was a nice break from work.

Just came back from the Parker banquet. Very good time.

They had all three Invincibles on display. I just posted some pics of them to my blog.

Check them out.

http://www.dogsanddoubles.com

Off to Vintagers tomorrow.

OWD

Be sure to get us an exact count on how many Model 21s pop their ribs or forend lugs.


Best,
Ted

Nice meeting you at the PGCA dinner last night.

Dave

Remington 40X.......
What where the Maunfrance Ideal gun and there price if you remember? Do you recall the dealers that had them?


Best!

Not everybody. Silk shirt, light linen slacks and mesh fabric merrel shoes help a lot.

Battle:

Can't remember which dealer had the Ideals, but my recollection is that they were in the far right corner of one of the large tents. Starting point would be the parking area nearest the entrance to the site at the end of the tents. Might have been Kirby Hoyt's tables, but don't hold me to that. I was looking for other things and noticed them only because owning one is on my life list.

Rem

I was there on Friday. Very hot and humid. I was dressed lightly and wondered at some who were dressed for Scotland. I think they should have it later in the year. I looked at those Ideals too, both junkers. W. Larkin Moore had a 20 bore Ovunder for 23K that I really wanted but I wouldn't even pay that for a car. Prices in general have gotten silly. He also had a V19 Darne 12 bore for 7.5K. I could buy the same in France for half that. The only bargain I saw there was a 16 guage Model 12 for $600 but I guess the Vintager's isn't where one goes for bargains.
nial

The Manufrenchies were priced at 14 hundred and 22 hundred. Both looked dogtired (one action bar bright plated, the other with a good bit of case) and one had a brass snapshackle for a sling disconnect and was missing the little "puzzle piece" behind the trigger guard. I believe it was Kirby Hoyt's tables; he solicits the things so makes sense.

jack

Ive gone when at Orvis.
Seems to me a Husqvarna dealer needs
a table there.
I cant think of another way to get new blood into that.

I was at the Vintagers Saturday. It was hot with little air movement in the tents. The dealers seemed to have had as many, if not more, guns on display as other years. The buying crowd of other years wasn't there though. I carried I great little Darne around for five hours, the dealers thought it was priced right but didn't want to buy. Only two other people even asked to look at it. It was a good opportunity to talk to people who are usually to busy with customers.I'm looking forward to next years event.
Dave

Researcher-

Nice to meet you and see the rest of the Parker/Fox crowd. A real pleasure.

I'm a little drunk on all the nice guns I saw and people I met. Dizzying, really.

I just talked to a guy for over an hour about a Guyot he has. We met near the show and I took lots of pics of the gun. I'll post everything to my blog over the next few day.

BTW: I have pics of Kirby's Manufrenchies. I'll post them.

Take care.

Gregg

My bottom feeder pick of show was a gun I saw early Thurs.: Lefever GE damascus at 9C on Allgood's tables. Came up flat and centered for me but Allgood said he had someone "coming in later to look at it" and I didn't feel like disappointing as I've got a G extractor and no real walking around money. Someone had adjusted the jack screw to make the lever go to 5 o'clock. Giveaway was the doll's head proud of the mortise in the bar. I hauled two "pin" SWs (one a Sterlingworth Co.)and an early Fox BE down there Thurs. and then decided that the heat and the thin early crowd didn't warrant the wares on a blanket game. Ken Buch could probably fill the place with inexpensive Huskies but had only one with him. What does that tell you? Certainly as Parkerish as I've ever seen it. What's that about?

jack

Rabbit, I believe Ken has made a turn in his marketing strategy and does not bring in Huskies any more. I got mine some time ago.

Ken had 2 Husky Model 20s and sold them both.

To ex-Parker owners?

jack

Anyone who has seen the inside of both would choose the Husky!

Back from the Vintagers.

It was HOT and being surrounded by the bay, well, humid too. Thur, Fri and Sat all hit 90+. Vintage attire was quickly shed in favor of heat survival clothing of shorts, open shoes and cotton shirts. Sunday a cool front moved in and made for a nice day for the main event.

The targets were excellent. Shooters moved through the course without much delay. I shot one event Friday afternoon and that was enough due to the heat. Saturday I shot early and got in 2 prelim rounds. Had the weather been nicer, I would have gotten the Carte Blanc and shot till I dropped, in the heat 3 events was enough.

I noticed a few vendors I patronize, did not make it. Some dealers were having a good show, others reported it slow. When I queried the dealers, it seemed everyone was shopping for "a small gauge ____" and you fill in the blank.

I sold 2 guns and traded 1 towards a dent raising kit. I have some "project guns" (read wall hangers), with more than enough dents to get me up to speed before I tackle any nice gun.

It was also my wife's first trip. She enjoyed the entire event. We ate Maryland crabs every evening at different venues. She is ready to go back next year (except for the drive from NC).

Except for the flat tire, 9pm, on RTE 50, limping into a Subway parking lot to unload everything into the parking lot, to reach the spare, to change the tire, to reload the car and then dinner. At least that nice pub in Easton was open late with lots of cold beer and good crab soup.

Joe

Just posted pics of the event to my blog:

http://www.dogsanddoubles.com

Pics of the Manufrances are in there.


OWD

Joe, can you tell us what restaurants you visited? You seem to be happy with the ones you patronized.

Anybody happen to see a Lefever 16 G Optimus there? I heard a rumor.

Nope, however, there may have been two or three under tables to be offered to the elite. There usually are. More Optimus grade Lefevers seem to come out every year.

Bill, I'm not Joe, but regarding restaurants, our group went to Washington St. Pub in downtown Easton--pub fare and good beer--great for the first night, and Harris' Crab House on Kent Island, which had a quite remarkable "all you can eat" crab, shrimp and corn feast, finished rather excessively with their home-made nutty buddy desserts. The latter place is a favorite and I always try to dine there-although after the big feast I was rather ashamed of myself for excess gluttony. Others went to the Crab Claw in St. Michaels and reported favorably. Keith L.

Hello Joe,

Good report.

Next trip pick one .

JC

Dr. Bob, the Optimus was supposed to have been viewed by several Lefever Arms Collectors Assoc. members and "given the stamp of approval" according to the seller. I wonder if these members will come forth with their views. Hmmmmmm????

There were fewer dealers again this year. Long time dealers like Holland & Holland, FAMARS, and Mid South (all of whom were at the Southern this year) weren't there. Dealer attendance at the Vintage Cup continues in the opposite direction of the Southern SXS shoot which has been growing fast and is now much bigger than the Vintagers.

Dealers point to tables at the Vintage Cup costing a lot more than at the Southern as the main reason the two events are going in the opposite direction. Also, the Vintagers $20 daily admission for visitors discourages new people from coming to out to learn about the sport and visit the vendor tents. Neither the Southern nor Great Northeast SXS shoots charge a gate fee for visitors.

Hopefully, the organizers will make the event more affordable for vendors and visitors, as its the vendors and curious vistitors that really bring in new people into the sport.

The Southern and Great Northeast SXS have been growning rapidly of late, it would be nice to see the same thing happening to the Vintage Cup.

DGM: You sum up my take on the event exactly. My son and I drove over from Nokesville VA on Saturday. For me it was to see lots of people I've known for a long time...and the same-old same-old guns and stuff in the game fair tents. Paying $40 for the two of us after driving around D.C. to one of the remotest and hard to get to venues would be a deal breaker for all but the most motivated, and it was reflected in the scaled-down dealer presence and, I suspect, a dramatically lower paid attendance. There just weren't that many people around, and I knew too many of the familiar faces...few if any newbies or anyone under 55...alas!

Everything appeared pretty thin. The food tent went inside this year. At 2:00 p.m. Saturday, all they had were crab cakes and veggie burgers (crab cakes were good!). I have attended about 9 or 10 of the Vintage Cups, including the first in RI in 1997. I am sure a good time was had by all, and I found it worth my trip and my $20 share of the admit fee, but I doubt that new double-gun prospects like my son (in his mid-30s with one Trojan 12-bore) will ever be attracted to the situation as it now exists: A virtual private party for the dyed-in-the-wool double-gunners, like myself...alas! EDM

EDM, dont give up the ship yet, my uncle(53yrs and his first time at the vintagers) and myself (45 yrs 2nd time there) took it all in on Fri. we were not there to shoot just browsing... he has been looking for a 20 ga. Parker repro, and I'm always looking for big n heavy duck guns.

for us from southern NJ it was a easy 12 hr. day and we hit some favorite haunts in Easton too - Albrights, The Canvasback gallery and The Washington St Pub.

I understand some of the feelings, but I can't for the life of me understand how a venue an hour from the nation's capital, and about 1/2 hour from the capitol of Maryland can honestly be described as "remote". For many of us it's substantially closer than Sandanona, and a really nice area (the heat was indeed awful though!).

if all you men complaining after the fact about daily admission, would have done your homework, you would have signed up to shoot one of the events. &50.00 preregistration and you get free admission for every day. plus you actually get to shoot, not just write about your fantasy shooting here. also check the scores and you will see event numbers were generally up, not down. don't believe everything you read.

I'm a Vintager member and shooter, so I've never had to pay the gate fee, but I think its crazy to charge visitors who want to learn about our sport $20 each - daily - just to check us out. That's no way to encourage new people to join us.

I know one person who brought a car full of guests this year to introduce them to the Vintagers who were pretty put off when they were charged $20 each. The same applies to people who want to check out the vendors.

That's no way to attract new people, and the Southern and Great Northeast SXS shoots don't do that. Neither did the Orvis Cup this year.

There were more main event shooters this year, and it was no coincidence that the main event fee was lower this year, which was a good move. More evidence the lowering the price helps increase attendence (and ultimately revenue). Now that needs to be applied to the gate and vendors as well. I have no problem with the Vintagers making more money, as a member, I like it, but I want them to do it by growing the organization and sport, not in a way that chases new people away.

... Also, I don't see Pintail Point's location as the problem. Each November over 10,000 people find their way next door to Easton, MD for the Easton Waterfowl Festival and gunshow. That's not the problem with attendance.

I can't speak for vendors and the price they pay for table space, but I don't think 20 bucks is unreasonable for what is offered to the public. Compare it to a movie ticket,concert ticket,dinner,or a few good micro brewed beers and price doesn't seem to bad. If newby is just getting into doubles ,I think the guns and prices he sees once in the tents will probably scare him alot more than the $20.00 entrance fee.
Just my thoughts, Dave

The attendance looked alot thinner than last year. All you had to do was look at the parking lot to see that. There are several issues that need to be attended to for this event to continue in the future. The $20 gate fee is rather pricey if all you are coming for is to learn or visit the vendors. All it amounts to is a $20 fee to go to a gun show, which is rather high. It appeared as though the staff was either short handed or lacking this year as well. Each morning the trash cans in the tents were still overflowing, even after the opening times. This is something that should be taken care of well before the gates are opened. The food concession was lacking as well this year. Last year's set-up allowed for a much faster flow and had a much better selection.

Granted, these are all minute details, but when added up it can make for a less than desirable experience for a first time visitor. First impressions go a mighty long way. I am sure there were a few who attended for the first time thinking they were mugged for $20 to get in and see trash spilling out in the tents and nothing decent to eat. Not exactly the way to attract new and younger attendees.

I think that points to another major problem with the Vintage Cup these days.

There used to be a number of vendors who sold relatively affordable small items such as books, cartridge bags, gun cases, Orvis clothes and gear, sporting prints, collectibles, etc. Some were collectors, some made their own items, some were doing resale. They added a lot to the character of the event, and left many people happy that they found something unusual or even got a bargain.

I think there were only a couple of vendors selling primarily small, inexpensive items this year, and I can't imagine they made any money doing it.

No doubt, high vendor fees and low attendance have a lot to do with that. At the same time, if new people attending the event have only the opportunity to buy big ticket items such as guns, that makes it hard for them to participate as buyers as well.

I saw dealers of small items who were at both the Southern and Great Northeast (quite a ways from each other) who were not set up at the Vintage Cup. I think its safe to assume they were priced out of the event.

OK, here's a test: Get out your map of the USA; find Pintail Point, and tell us how many double-gunners drove Westward to reach the location. Then estimate how many double-gun owners live in "Our Nations Capital"--sawed-off shotguns don't count.

It is a fact that the Vintage Cup is a private party for Vintagers; they get in free by being a member. I have gotten in free in past years when I was a member. If I had a table in the Parker tent (like I did in 2009), I would have been on the "exhibitor" list at the gate. It's not the twenty bucks---"true believers" will pay the price.

I make no suggestions as to how Ray P should run his private party for Vintagers and others so inclined, but I am thankful that such events exist.

I was at Addieville RI in 1997, and at Sandanona NY most years, and at Pintail Point the last three years. I was attending Sanford NC since before the Parker/LCS shootoff began. I have attended the Yooper (U.P. MI) regularly, and I hit Puglisi's Duluth MN shoot this year on the way north to fish the Boundary Waters. I was at Hidden Hollow PA last year, and attended the Vintager event at Northbrook IL. I seriously doubt that anyone has been at as many of these listed events as I have.

Would this well-traveled double-gun fan travel all the way to the Eastern Shore of MD if I did not have my kids living in Nokesville VA (30 miles west of our Nation's Capitol)?

Hell, NO!

As it was, Rt.66 was wide open and the Beltway moved along; Rt 50 to the bridge was relatively quick and no back-up coming or going. Ducked the bullet, so to speak. I don't shoot the main events, so I have no sense of what the actual competitors think. From my view as simply a gawker, the things to gawk at were diminished from prior years. Might be the economy...or it might be time to move on. Not my decision to make. EDM

I just want to thank Dave W, a true gentleman. I left my "ears" in the shuttle after getting off at the last station in the red course. Dave took the time to track me down and return them, with no thought to his being inconvenienced, Thanks Dave!

The locale, and especially historic Kent Island, is one of the nicest locations in Maryland/Virginia. Still lots of farming going on, and beautiful water, fresh and salt.

Hour and a half away BUT I loved Sandanona. The multi-day entry on one shooting registration is the bargain. My wife piggybacked free on mine every yr. at Sandanona and once at PPt. I think Ray P. has a right to charge to put his "private club" on display to the rabble, which of course includes me. Both Ray and the Mrs. have consistently been the essence of helpfulness to the casual (and casually-dressed)daytripper. Ray is AOK in my book and that is a bit more than I can say about many who have undergone the tweedy apotheosis.

jack

It's a once a year occassion, the admittance fee equates to 4 beers here in England, it's an opportunity to see fine guns and fine people. Ray is a gentleman, an enthusiast and needs to be encouraged.
If Ray tried harder to address issues such as the trash cans and a better quality of food it would probably cost you more and you would [censored] more probably.
If the food is an issue take your own and meet up with friends for a picnic (English Tradition).
If the trash is an issue, be tidier take your litter with you and find a trash can.
I don't think Ray would find it too difficult to supply big trash bins outside the tents for the exhibitors and the visitors to empty their own trash.
Pintail Point is very nice but I am sure it wouldn't hurt to try different venues, perhaps upstate New York?
Change is as good as a rest, some say.

Don't know what the censored word was ( I didn't swear) so let's say moan, whine, or [censored].
Which ever word expresses your discontent.

Ah! did it again. Didn't know a female dog was a swear word.

I love the Vintagers, but I hate driving around D.C. and over Rt. 50 and its headaches.

It's a 300 mile drive for me from these Western Virginia mountains - I-64 E; I-81 N; I-66 E; I-495; Rt. 50 E. Sounds simple, but the traffic jams make it maddening.

For some reason the >500 mile drive to Milbrook was less stressful.

I too noticed the fewer vendors. I'm a member of Vintagers, so exempt from the $20. I believe Ray is doing a good thing, and I support it with my dues.

Remember, Ray can't control the weather. Yeah it was hot, but I remember years of rain and hurricanes also. Despite the heat, I went away with a dandy Purdey double .303. Must have been a success for me!

The greatest pleasure is seeing the many friends and acquaintences I enjoy in this hobby. That's what motivates me to fight the traffic.

Here's a little report I posted on NitroExpress.com:

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=168544&an=0&page=0#Post168544

I didn't make the Southern SxS last April, but I think I'll make the effort next time. Besides, that's my old stomping ground - UNC Class of 1976!

Curl

I had a similar thought to Eightbore about the rumored 16 gauge Optimus. I was there at the Vintagers on Saturday and cruised all the tables. No Lefever Optimus on top of any table or in any display rack. It could have been under a table to show to select potential victims, who could be told that "knowledgeable Lefever collectors" had vouched for it. There were a number of knowledgeable Lefever collectors there and none of them saw it, so I don't know who was doing the vouching. If it was the real McCoy, why hide it under a table????

Salopian, wait a minute, where I drink $20 can get me totally pissed. Of course in your neck of the woods 12 quid will barely get a buzz on.
nial

Pete, I talked to Toby; said he hadn't seen you for a bit and that you had other irons in the consultancy fire. Toby has a good eye for the phyz as I said "Hello" and he said "Rabbit". Not so easy when you haven't seen the non-buying transatlantic pest for three yrs.!

jack

Let me check this out: A female canine is correctly called a [censored], a male is a dog.

If this gets [censored], it is reminiscent of the Parker website censoring program that disallowed the reference to Dick Baldwin, then director of the ATA Hall of Fame Museum, and well-known author: He became known as **** Baldwin, yet when I tested the system with "dick-head" it was printed as such. Go figure!

In this context, Bob Bitchin is the well-know publisher of the sailing magazine, Latitudes and Attitudes. True!

I just previewed my post: [censored] is censored, Bitchin isn't: So, I guess you can be bitchin' about life and thats OK, but if life is a [censored], you're SOL. Let's see how it treats the anachronistic female canine name of slut, which [censored] replaced in the literature of dogs and hunting in the 1700s... The sex classifications at AKC shows are (or at least were when I was tuned in) "Dog" and "[censored]." Surprisingly we can get away with "butt" when referring to stocks. Investigation continues. EDM

I don't want to offend anyone, but I go to Gunshows within a 100 mile radis and don't see 1% of the double guns that I can look at when I go over to Pintail Point. Chantilly, Va. ($12.00) 1000 tables and I have to sort throught the Beef Jerky, roated nuts, Black Plactic guns, etc., there are maybe 40-50 tables with anything that interests me. Harrisburg, Pa., ($13.00, parking and gate) same story, same crap. I say that the Vintergs is a bargin.

CptCurl, I also seem to remember that the long trip to Millbrook was less stressful than the trip to Pintail Point, but I think I have the reason pinned down.

It was tough rolling down 301 at 59mph Thurs. morning with three other cars and a coal truck. My gas mileage went up five mpg. I left at 7:30 and arrived by 9AM. Not much to complain about except the school buses in Middletown DE. Even the bloody cornfields at PPt weren't blowing away. It's great belonging to the Blest but I still luved Sandanona and pts. west on the Hudson.

jack

Bill, you are quite right. We sure had some good times on the road, at the Orvis facility, and at the Willows.

Curl

I don't think the location is the underlieing problem. The Vintage Cup was shrinking in attendance and vendors its last years at Sandanona as well. Signature events like the Concours de Elegance were already being dropped.

Moving it to new locations regularly could create some opportunities to reach out to new people, but fundamentally other things would also need to change, particularly the cost for vendors and visitors, and more needs to be done to bring in new people.

Unlike the organizers of the Southern and Great Northeast shoots, the Vintagers are a nonprofit organization with dues paying members and a Board of Directors responsible for growing the organization.

If they want to return to growth, the Vintagers Board should solicit input and involvement from its members.

I'd like to see them hold a board meeting at the next Vintage Cup and ask the membership to provide input. There are a lot of members with exceptional business and other experience who would love to help turn this around and get it growing again.

Many of these members could bring some fresh ideas and new energy to the Vintager Board as well if they were asked to help.

I don't disagree with some of the thoughts expressed about how to grow the Vintage Cup, but it appears some folks have the wrong idea about it being a "Vintager" event. The Vintagers organization may be a non-profit organization, but the Vintage Cup is not owned by the Vintagers Organization. It is a for-profit venture owned by Ray Poudrier (and others perhaps, I don't know) and he can do what he wishes with it. It is of course promoted as an event to be appealing to Vintager members. I was also under the misapprehension that the two were connected until Ray set me straight a couple of years ago. The only formal connection is Ray himself.

Personally, I enjoy the event very much, and intend to go as long as it is held, and don't think it needs to be a huge extravaganza to be successful.

I'm really reluctant to comment because I don't know the facts, but the "formal" connection is the stated nonprofit Vintager website largely dedicated to promoting and registering people for the event, with checks made out and sent to the Vintagers.

Let's hope your information is wrong for a number of reasons.

Many years ago, for the first few years the Vintages was started, Ray wanted me to set up. I did not. A few years ago I put a pencil to it to figure if I should now reconsider.

Here is what I remember as to costs and time.

Total time to drive up & back and at the show 10 days.

Table $800-1000.

Hotel: a modest one. includes 4 hotels on road and up there.

$1050.

Meals: $500.00

Gas $280.00. Not counting wear and tear on car or other expenses.

That is the very bare mininum

So close to a $3000. bill just at the get go. And 2 very hard days driving each way.

So, I said to a couple of friends of mind who set up there in the past.:

Can I go and be guaranteed $20,000- $30000 in sales ( for my up front investment and long road time, and out of the shop for 10 days) and they said "no"
So why do I want to go?

I would love to meet new people and see some folks that I have done business over the phone and say hello, but it still has to be profitable too.

I think this is why you are seeing less vendors.


Best

John Boyd
Quality Arms

MY SENTIMENTS EXACTLY! For the same reason that I don't set up at gun shows any longer. Too much wear & tear & too little profit.

Best Regards, George Lander

John and George, we know why you don't want to go. Don't try to transfer your financial woes to other vendors who have a good time and make money. Those who continue to exhibit at side by side events have something to sell at a price shooters and collectors will pay. You guys either don't have anything to sell or your prices are not attractive. I think our readers know which of you has which problem. Selling Ariettas at retail is not what the Vintagers is all about. Neither is selling tired old guns at twice retail. Both of you have nice guns, but not of interest to attendees at the Vintagers.

Eightbore:

Maybe you are right. I do a large Arrieta business. But as some others have said the amount of vendors has decreased.

Holland, A & S, Mid-South, Fieldsport, plus others were not there. I do not think they sell Arrietas and they we not there

???

Best

John Boyd

John, you said it all when you more than implied that you insist on a $20,000 to $30,000 guarantee before you will come. I don't think Ray can give you that.

Bill: I can't speak for John, but for me Easton Maryland is a very long drive and there's not much to see there other than the Vintager's. I've been several times and enjoyed each time. The Parker get-together was O.K. too. There are pleanty of "tired old doubles at inflated prices" already there so there's no need to include mine. I can sell as many as I want right here from home. I was going this year but something came up that I couldn't avoid. If I lived in Maryland as you do I most certainly would have been there. To imply that I have "financial woes" is most unfair, untrue and beneath the man that I believe you to be.I am disapointed.

Best Regards, George

You have brought up some valid reasons for not attending the Vintagers. However, to wind those reasons into "The Vintagers is going down the tubes." is ridiculous. How about "Rick Hemingway's shoot is going down the tubes because Murphy is not going." which would be equally ridiculous. OH! I probably will go to Rick's shoot as always. By the way, you and John did cite your financial woes as the reason you are not going to the Vintagers; the inability to make a profit.

Yes, thats right eight bore. I go because it would be a business decision and it would have to make sense. Its not a couple of goof off days as it is for you.


John Boyd

Bill: If you kindly reread John's & my post I believe that neither he or I said or implied that Ray's event "was going down the tubes" I believe that we both stated that it was just too far away from us to haul a bunch of guns there & then haul most of them back. Ray has a fine event and a lot of effort is put forth to make it so. I plan to go next year but I don't plan to set up. Will you be set up at Backwoods at the end of this month or will you be there to shoot and look at the guns?

Best Regards As Always.....George

According to the US Patent and Trademark office website the trademark "THE VINTAGE CUP WORLD SIDE-BY-SIDE CHAMPIONSHIPS AND EXHIBITION" is owned by the Order of Edwardian Gunners, aka the Vintagers, which is a Vermont nonprofit corporation. By law, no one "owns" a nonprofit corporation. The board and members control a nonprofit organization according the bylaws, and the organization must serve the interest of either the public or its members.

The Board members of the Order of Edwardian Gunners are listed as:

Officer 1 RAYMOND S M POUDRIER
Officer 2 FRANK CONROY
Officer 3 CHRISTOPHER GILGUN
Officer 4 JACK DUDLEY

Please be careful about about what you say about a nonprofit corporation. The IRS and state AG's are all cracking down on misuse of nonprofits these days and misstatements like that above can cause real problems for a nonprofit, its board and members.

$20 is too much? A local hubba bubba gun show complete with jerky, Bennie babies, web gear, cheap jewelry, and lots if not mostly black plastic guns and "tactical accessories" will cost $12-$15 around here.
Pay the extra $5 and be happy you can see a lot of nice doubles

... or for $0 you can see even more fine guns and vendors at the Southern SXS shoots. Or you can get into the Great Northeast SXS shoot or the Orvis Cup for free and see fine guns as well.

I don't think its a coincidence that those events are growing each year, while the Vintage Cup continues to shrink.

I'm a Vintager member and shooter, so they don't charge me to get in, so it's not my wallet I'm concerned about.

What bothers me is the gate fee basically only hits visitors and new people, who are the very people we should be the most welcoming to, particularly given that new people haven't exactly been beating our door down to get in lately.

I've encouraged a number of new people over the years to come and find out why its a great event and it certainly doesn't help to have to tell them that they must fork out $20 per person per day for themselves and their family members just to find out if its something they would like to get involved in.

I'm sure its also frustrating for vendors, who are charged almost twice as much or more for their booths at the Vintage Cup as they are charged at the other SXS shoots, to have to tell any customers they invite to come see a gun that they will have to pay $20 just to visit their booth.

I really enjoy the Vintage Cup. It bothers me that I've been attending the Vintage Cup for almost ten years and each year there are fewer people and fewer vendors -- and that I am still one of the youngest people attending. I don't want to be one of the ones left behind to turn out the lights.

I'd like to see some changes to make the event more attractive to new people and more vendors, so the Vintage Cup can grow like the other SXS shoots have been. I think that should be a key goal of our little nonprofit group.

If the for-profit SXS shoots can make it cheaper for people and vendors to attend - and are growing - I can't figure out why the nonprofit shoot can't as well.