While I await my acceptance at the Fox site I thought I would run this by folks here.

Looks to be later style B or C engraving with just H on one barrel flat and 3" on the other, also Fox proof but no warning?

Think serial was 1920's range.

Thank you,
Mark

Mark: I have an HE and the only word left on the barrel flats is "TAG". I believe that many had "THE BARRELS NOT GUARANTEED SEE TAG" ground off by either the sellers or the owner because of the misconception as to what the phrase really meant.

Best Regards, George

any HE engraved in a pattern other than H is pretty rare... I believe there was only 1 B-HE ever...

Many of the early guns did not have the tag warning... and as mentioned, many were later struck off...

Got pics?

Thank guys....am REALLY kicking self for not grabbing a pic with phone...

Mark any chance you know the serial # I have a HE engraved as a C grade and I know for fact the next serial # gun was the same. from the factory records these were the first two upgraded

Mark, the production summary by the Fox Collectors Association shows that one HE (Super Fox) was made with B frame engraving, and 22 were made with C engraving. The B and C engraving patterns are quite different. It isn't unusual to find HE's made without the "Not Guaranteed" stamp. Others that were originally stamped NG, had their NG stamp filed off or defaced by past owners due to misunderstanding on what it meant. If the HE you're posting about was made with engraved barrel wedges in addition to the frame engraving, that would be quite a rare configuration.

Please feel free to post on the Fox CA website while you are awaiting membership credentials. Our regular forums are open to all registered users. Frank Silvers

http://www.foxcollectors.com/ah_fox/content/he_fox.html

Don't do it, Mark!

The hook is set. Make 'em pay you for the info!

OOOhhhh my...not my gun!!

Was asked what it was and what it was worth.

Barrel wedges were engraved...middle of the road as far as coverage between C and B in the book.

FOX in the banner, bold engraving...think LCS Ideal or Ithaca 1 1/2 but more coverage, more detail

Don't think the stock cheeks were checkered though like they "should be" on an A or B.

BUT, drop in brass chamber plug stopped short of 3" by a bit that led me to think it was the real deal...they should be chambered with a tight taper, right?

Heavy, did not note barrel weight stamps though?...snapped home with determination when closed.

Person who owns this thought BB actually did the barrels, from the Foxbbs that is not a given, but possible, especially given the A+ engraving?

Time for a letter!!!

Thank you all...and no, I do not stand to profit from this other than from the knowledge you have shared.

Best,
Mark

Back to "What is the serial number?" That will tell all.

eightbore,

S/N 30716

Thanks everybody,
Mark

I think it is a mystery number. Check with the AHFCA to see whether they can give you some assistance.

Gun in question wound up being sold here.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/AH-Fox-HE-Grade-12-Gauge/1172130.uts?Ntk=GunLibrary&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch%2F%3FN%3D%26Ntk%3DGunLibrary%26Ntt%3D1979301%26Ntx%3Dmode%252Bmatchall%26WTz_l%3DSearch%2520No%2520items%2520Found%26WTz_st%3DSearchRefinements%26form_state%3DsearchForm%26search%3D1979301&Ntt=1979301

Any post mortum ideas on what it was/is?

Best,
Mark

I don't have a clue. The price indicated it was something other than a standard A grade. The weight, if correctly described, would indicate a special gun. Of course, the stamped or engraved "SPECIAL" may indicate that the gun had "been to Pennsylvania", a phrase that Fox collectors understand. A AHFCA letter would clear things up, maybe. A frame measurement is basic and would definitely clear things up. If the new owner would PM, maybe some assistance would be forthcoming.

Mark I got the card on that gun from the AHFCA and it turns out to be a standard A grade. After comparing the HE markings on the barrel flats and water table to other HE markings I lost interest.

Best,

Mike

Thanks Mike.

Frame measurement is more important than trying to evaluate markings. The gun's weight doesn't match the order card. If the frame measures like an HE or 0 frame, the card means nothing. In that case it is a special order H grade regardless of what the card says. You can't fake a 0 frame.

eightbore,
Every measurement and picture listed was as advertised(weight, skinny bores, barrel engraving....) am sorry I did not know the finer points of frame sizes etc. when I saw the gun, if pics do not show, barrels were stamped as Philly.

Supposing you could get anything you want, and this was IT...why?

This was one of the bigger puzzles I have seen so far, and it was just that, a puzzle!

A very nice one at that though:)

Thanks all,
Mark

Just to add my two cents. I have examined examples of Philly era Fox guns that have H size frames with standard .729 bores. These guns are not called H's on the factory cards, they are referred to as something like "make as heavy as possible" and weight 8lbs plus. All of the HE's I have measured have overbore barrels and are always referred to as H's on the factory card even if they are graded eg CHE, XHE. The gun in question falls outside what I have observed. But ya never know.

The point I am making is that a frame measurement identifying the gun as an 0 frame gun would bring its value far above a standard A grade gun. The frame measurement is the only way to determine the frame size. A close examination of the H marking on the barrel flat of this gun may give further value to the gun if the frame is identified as an 0 frame. I have seen so many "SPECIAL" marked guns out of Pennsylvania, I don't know what a real one looks like. The buyer has the added protection of a return privilege if the H is found to be a spurious mark. I wish I had asked for a frame measurement. Who bought this gun?

Just curious-- Craig, as you are the "el primo Foxist" here- Have you ever seen and examined one of the Philly 20 3" Burt Becker bored Magnums. The late T. Nash Buckingham's friend Hal Bowen Howard had one, it was mentioned in one of Nash's stories about a waterfowling hunt he and Hal shared.

I have a Sterlingworth 20 made about 1935 in Utica with 2 & 3/4" chambers, 28" barrels, DT, EJ-- great bird gun. But a friend also has a similar 20 Sterlingworth- 30" barrels, DT, EJ- and his chambers "mike" at 3" even with a Galazan chamber gauge- as well as the old rolled up index card stunt- But it is not a HE 20 by any means--

Run With The Fox. First I would like to state that I am no where near the authority on Fox guns, many are much more knowledgeable than me. I have only handled one Becker gun and it was a 12ga. I did not measure the bores or chambers.
Bill is correct measuring the frame is the only positive way to determine the frame size. I also agree that a H frame gun with standard bores documented as 8 plus lbs would be of interest to most Fox collectors.

Thank you Craig for the gracious and humbling answer. No one man can know everything, and it is nice to see you yield to others with expertise in that area. I spoke with PGCA Lifer Larry Frey this past Sunday, after he and others returned from the Greenwich Gun Show. He mentioned that the AH Fox Collectors were adjacent to the PGCA and some good natured "ribbing" went on, and that the show was well attended. IMO we need that spirit of brotherhood with all the various Collector Associations.

I bought my Sterlingworth 20 several years ago from a private party, hoping to use it for doves. We didn't get a legal dove season, it was defeated in a Nov. election ballot issue- I think one of the many reasons AH Fox guns have such a loyal following is the great history of some famous men who used them so well- Teddy Roosevelt, Gifford Pinchot, P.J. Hindemarsh, Henry Bartholomew, Hal Bowen Howard, and of course, Nash Buckingham.

To complicate things, some few HE Grade Super Foxes were made on the standard 12 gauge SIZE frame that measures 2.340-2.350" across the breech balls/fences. In comparison, the heavy 0-size frame will measure about 2.420".

One such standard frame Super I own, was "ordered light" and it left the factory at 8 pounds, 4 ounces. And it does have the regular HE frame engraving, and the later-era Super Fox bores at .738". The record card for this gun shows it as an HE.

Regarding the gun in question here, I agree it may be outside the typical HE grade/Super Fox parameters. Just two observations for whatever they're worth: the H stamp on the barrel flats is not the usual special font, and its 3" stamping is also atypical. IMHO. Silvers

I previously mentioned that the gun in question may have "Been to Pennsylvania". Apparently, from what Frank states, it has. I wonder who bought it?

Frank, to whom does your standard frame HE letter?

Bill, I sent you the gent's name by email. Frank Silvers

Thanks.

One of my hunting companions, a now retired Judge of Probate, belongs to the Fox Collectors Assn. I was at his home today and he showed me the re-up card he received. Even though I am not a member and only own one Fox Sterlingworth shotgun, I was very impressed with the nice tribute paid to the late Michael McIntosh. Very well said indeed.

Without trying to steal their thunder, the gist is- the first 15 members who re-up for a 5 year tour of duty received a signed and sealed copy of the last edition of Michael's fine book on the AH Fox guns. I have his best guns and his book on shotgunning, I hold Michael to have been as much of as researcher and first rate gun writer on the Fox guns as I hold the now late Edward Muderlak on the Parkers.

What a shame we lost both these first rate gunners and writers in 2010. My friend has a 12 BE Fox with 30" Krupp barrels, and a 16 AE with 28" Chromox barrels, both DT and PG stocks-excellent wood to metal and mechanics, I can see why Michael considered them to have been the best boxlock doubles ever made in the USA.