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Posted By: Krakow Kid Hinge Pin Survey - 11/08/10 01:33 AM
Your preference: Oil, Grease, Other
Posted By: Replacement Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/08/10 01:35 AM
Used to be white lithium for me, but I just switched to Mobil 1 bearing grease.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/08/10 01:39 AM
Mobile 1 here, too!

Best,
Ted
Posted By: Philbert Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/08/10 01:47 AM
Rig +P stainless lube
Posted By: DAM16SXS Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/08/10 02:11 AM
Rig on all friction points for all my guns.
Posted By: bbman3 Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/08/10 02:15 AM
I used gun oil on hinge pins for many years and no problems.
Posted By: postoak Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/08/10 02:45 AM
Hypoid Gear oil 95 WT.
Posted By: Rocketman Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/08/10 02:50 AM
Mobil 28; Mobil 1 on steroids.
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/08/10 02:56 AM
Gun oil (Rem-Oil)with a wipe down and reapplication with each use...Geo
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/08/10 03:10 AM
Any quality oil or grease is fine. I believe the traditional lube in England is/was petroleum jelly (Vaseline). Doesn't make much difference IF you frequently clean your gun. Grease tends to attract more dirt but doesn't migrate to other parts as oil might. With either just keep it light. I often see it gooed and smeared on as though it was an axle on a wagon. If you can see it you probably have too much on, IMO.
Posted By: Craigster Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/08/10 04:29 AM
Rig.
Posted By: Krakow Kid Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/08/10 05:32 AM
Well, some interesting anwers cmae in. I, myself, have used and continue to use Rig. I apply it gooey on the end of a Q-tipo, then spread it around with the clean end, then wipe off any excess areas. I asked this question because I overheard two old coots arguing back and forth the other day. I didn't stick around as I wanted to get in the woods!
Posted By: Geno Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/08/10 09:20 AM
Very thin oil with PTFE such as Master Teflon. Any Grease or thick oil is not suitable for hinge pin, 'cause it collects dust and sand and hinge pin wearing as result.
Posted By: David Williamson Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/08/10 01:57 PM
I never hear of anyone using any graphite, finer than talcum powder, doesn't attract dirt and will get into the harder to reach spots.
Posted By: TwiceBarrel Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/08/10 01:59 PM
I'm with Geno on this. A very thin application of synthetic clean and lube product such as Tri-Flow or Breakfree applied after each cleaning and allowed to dry is all the lubrication a hinge pin needs for an honest day of hunting or a 200 target day at the range. If you shoot more than that between cleaning/lubricating I suppose you could be needing to pack your hinge pin like a wheel bearing with a product like the Mobil Oil synthetic lubricants.
Posted By: Replacement Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/08/10 02:51 PM
Quote:
If you shoot more than that between cleaning/lubricating I suppose you could be needing to pack your hinge pin like a wheel bearing with a product like the Mobil Oil synthetic lubricants.


I guess I'm going to have to put zerk fittings on my hinge pins.
Posted By: Samuel_Hoggson Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/08/10 03:02 PM
Mobil 1 15W-50 for bearing points. CLP for internals.

Sam
Posted By: TwiceBarrel Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/08/10 03:17 PM
And would that be a frame mounted grease zerk or a forend mounted grease zerk?
Posted By: Replacement Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/08/10 05:19 PM
I'm going to install the new zerks into the hinge pin recess on my Parkers and Fox pin gun, so that they don't snag on my vest. I'll have to figure out another approach for the other guns.
Posted By: Chuck H Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/08/10 06:09 PM
Mobil 1 chassis grease. If I don't happen to have my lube available, I'll use anything this side of pork fat. The specific pressures and surface speed of the bearing are what drive the type of lubrication required. Gun hinges are about as far down the list as the list goes for both.
Posted By: Krakow Kid Another Lubrication Survey - 11/08/10 06:33 PM
The Hinge Pin survey went so well with a wide variety of preferences I thought I'd now ask:

What other parts of your double do you lubricate, and with what?
Posted By: Replacement Re: Another Lubrication Survey - 11/08/10 06:54 PM
For the other parts, I use whatever is handy. Recently started using Ballistol, but like CLP Breakfree a lot. Also on the bench/in the drawer are RemOil, Olio Beretta, Rusty Duck, 3-in-1, Singer sewing machine oil, Tetra (mostly for handguns), and other stuff I don't even remember. I guess I need to use up some of this stuff just to get rid of the odd containers.
Posted By: Philbert Re: Another Lubrication Survey - 11/08/10 07:25 PM
I like Ballistol because it is "friendly" to the wood and finish. But I also use Shell 560 turbine oil sparingly for areas like trigger groups. I am thinking of switching to Kroil from Ballistol for the bore.
Posted By: Ithaca5E Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/08/10 08:36 PM
I've used a bunch of greases, most everything that's already been named, and have had no problem with any. But I think my favorite is Lubriplate engine-building grease. It's light and splits the difference between oil and grease. What really impresses me is that when I take the gun apart, there's always evidence that some of it is still there doing it's job. Most of the thicker formulas seem to get squeezed from their appointed location.
Posted By: nialmac Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/08/10 08:55 PM
I use fish oil mixed with brilliantine. I just sit under a tree and the game comes to me.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/08/10 09:44 PM
Thin oil is what goes on the intake filtration unit on my Kohler 16 horse single cylinder engine, to collect sand and dust, to keep the rings and bearings from wearing.

Why someone would claim oil collects less sand or dust than grease does is beyond me.


Best,
Ted
Posted By: Geno Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/08/10 10:12 PM
What your talking about is beyond my understanding. PTFE is not thin oil for your single cylinder. You spray PTFE, then wipe it away and there is very thin layer of Teflon is on surface. There is nothing than could collect dust. At least Breakfree CLP is one of a few oils than could work at extremely low temperatures, 'cause actually there is no oil that could freeze, but very thin layer of Teflon again.
Plz don't disturb anyone with your not smart notes anymore.
Posted By: Researcher Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/09/10 12:29 AM
In April 1977, when I bought my Remington Model 3200 tube set, Col. Jim King gave me a 3.75 oz. jar of Remington Hinge and High Pressure Grease with it. I've been using that ever since on all my hinge pins, and I'm almost half way down the jar. I wonder if old Researcher of the jar of grease will last longer!!
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/09/10 12:30 AM
Geno,
No less an authority then the inventer of PTFE, Dupont Corporation, questions it's usefulness when added to lubricating and engine oils:

http://www.thegsresources.com/garage/gs_additive.htm

You aren't doing any gun a favor with that stuff.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: TwiceBarrel Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/09/10 01:28 AM
Originally Posted By: Ted Schefelbein
Geno,
No less an authority then the inventer of PTFE, Dupont Corporation, questions it's usefulness when added to lubricating and engine oils:

Best,
Ted



Hey Ted were talking shotguns not lawnmowers here.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/09/10 02:52 AM
If you had bothered to read it, you would have caught this:

Though they have gained rather wide acceptance among the motoring public, oil additives containing PTFE have also garnered their share of critics among experts in the field of lubrication. By far the most damning testimonial against these products originally came from the DuPont Chemical Corporation, inventor of PTFE and holder of the patents and trademarks for Teflon. In a statement issued about ten years ago, DuPont's Fluoropolymers Division Product Specialist, J.F. Imbalzano said, "Teflon is not useful as an ingredient in oil additives or oils used for internal combustion engines."

Those that think PTFE is helping their guns are mistaken.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: TwiceBarrel Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/09/10 04:08 AM
I'm sorry Ted but I see no relationship between what works (or doesn't) in an internal combustion engine and what works or doesn't on the hinge pin of a shotgun and what substantiates your claim that PTFE is not providing necessary lubrication to the hinge pin of a shotgun that functions in an environment totally different than the innards of an internal combustion engine. Guess I'm just dumb.
Posted By: Geno Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/09/10 08:56 AM
Never play cards with Ted, he swindles.
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/09/10 12:28 PM
Originally Posted By: Geno
Never play cards with Ted, he swindles.


He likes pumps too...


Originally Posted By: nialmac
I use fish oil mixed with brilliantine. I just sit under a tree and the game comes to me.


I bet it beats smelling like burnt motor oil wink
Posted By: TwiceBarrel Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/09/10 02:31 PM
Originally Posted By: Geno
Never play cards with Ted, he swindles.


In my younger less discreet days and noting his home location of Minnesota I might have made the observation that he may tip a few in the evening also but thankfully I have matured beyond that stage of life.
Posted By: JayCee Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/09/10 02:57 PM
TB, my old gunsmith -unfortunately not with us anymore- was a convinced
advocate of motor oil as a gun lubricant. His reasoning was that it had been
formulated for viscosity and to work in high temperatures -which the guns he
tended to in those days attained in use, as there were more birds or they were
used in competition- as a car engine does.

JC
Posted By: TwiceBarrel Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/09/10 03:25 PM
Originally Posted By: JayCee
TB, my old gunsmith -unfortunately not with us anymore- was a convinced
advocate of motor oil as a gun lubricant. His reasoning was that it had been
formulated for viscosity and to work in high temperatures -which the guns he
tended to in those days attained in use, as there were more birds or they were
used in competition- as a car engine does.

JC


I too have "smoked" a number of weapons durring combat with cyclic rates of fire approcaing 600 rounds per minute but none of them were equipped with a hinge pin. And yes copious amounts of motor oil poured on the receiver will keep a M2 Browning 50 cal. operating when a dab or two of Moble One grease or Breakfree would probably have been vaporzed in the first two minutes but we are not talking automatic weapons here we, at least I thought, were talking about sporting shotguns that utilize two barrels and are operating at a maximum rate of fire at about 24 rounds per minute.
Posted By: Birdog Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/09/10 05:04 PM
Mobil One, Breakfree and watch oil for locks. Sparingly.
Just read the specks of Mobil 28 aviation grease.
Posted By: Chuck H Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/09/10 06:31 PM
The issue with PTFE in internal combustion engines was it's propensity to produce acid byproducts when burned in the piston ring/ring land area. This accelerated the deterioration of the piston ring lands and loosened the ring fit, allowing for loss of compression and increased oil burning, thus compounding the deterioration. This information came from a small airplane information bulletin published by the FAA a couple decades ago.
Posted By: Shotgunjones Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/09/10 06:38 PM
I agree with Ted. When I first heard the old saw about grease attracting dirt better than oil, it was obviously BS. But it's been repeated so many times it's caught on as the truth.

What property of grease vs. oil could account for this belief? Tackiness? If so, that's what you want so it stays where you put it.

I use an engine assembly lube on hinges and locking bolts. Jim Legg turned me on to this, and it works great. It stays put.

My XS has seen nothing but, it's tight as the day it was made 15,000 shells later and the lever is in the as delivered location. What lubrication product could perform better than perfection?
Posted By: LeFusil Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/09/10 08:14 PM
I use grease for hinge pins, certain lock parts, spindels, hooks & where the reciever meets the forend iron. I prefer the Pro-Shot Pro-gold, but I also have a tube of the shooters choice "high-tech" red grease. They both do the job extremely well.
I subscribe to the notion that if you can see the grease, you've probably used too much.
I think any type of modern grease is better than what was being used when most of our guns were designed and made, that type of "grease" mostly being a mix of petroleum jelly and highly refined mineral oil. Some traditional gunsmiths-gunmakers still to this day use this mixture!!
I stay away from any type of oil that contains PTFE and silicone based lubes. I think these products are harmful to a fine shotguns wood and do not believe they provide any advantage over extremely good quality mineral oils (NYOIL for example) and highly refined, clear synthetic oils.
On a side note....J.M. Brownings oil/lube of choice was 30wt motor oil. He designed his A-5 to work using that oil and most all of his automatic weapons were lubed with 30wt....at least that is what HE used.
Most old gun companies recommended the use of 3 in 1 oil for their shotguns, some manufactures even packaged a little bottle of the stuff along with the gun. Others recommended Singer Sewing Machine oil, which is nothing but highly refined, extemely high quality mineral oil.

Use grease, or don't. Noboby should really care less what you are using on YOUR guns. Grease does have its place on a gun, just like oil has its place on a gun. Its been that way for a long damn time. Grease picks up no more dirt and crud than oil, the key is to change the grease or oil often..very often. Do that and you'll be just fine.

Dustin
Posted By: CptCurl Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/09/10 10:07 PM
Some years ago there was a lengthy discussion of this topic on NitroExpress.com in regard to double rifles. Some pretty good information changed hands then. Some of you might want a peek at that thread:

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=21207&page=0&fpart=all&vc=1

Curl
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/09/10 11:16 PM
On my vintage doubles I use either Sperm Whale oil of Ken Owens Hinge pin grease....it's according to how I feel that day.

Best to keep the parts clean and use whatever sparingly.
Posted By: Geno Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/10/10 12:18 AM
When I used to study in tech institute I worked in one laboratory of this institute at the same time. This laboratory reseached different lubes with different additives such as soft metals. One of the best additives for steel-to-steel contact was copper. There is some effect named Selective Transfer. It means copper in lube precipitales on steel surfaces and then copper molecules tranfers from one steel surface to another, but both steel surfaces remain the same and without any wearing. EP number was very high for these kinds of lubes and bearings life lasted several times longer, then bearings with regular lubes.
I guess these kind of lubes would be ideal for gun hinge pins.
You just need to add a bit of this lube on friction surfaces like hinge pin and hook, to make several open-close operations untill friction surfaces become slightly red (copper), then wipe all grease away and go ahead. Just to add some light oil in future and repeat procedure, if all copper comes off from steel.
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/10/10 01:28 AM
Copper???...Geo
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/10/10 02:07 AM
Hey twice barrel:

The problem with putting PTFE in your oil, as explained to us by several industry experts, is that PTFE is a solid.

Like I said, if you bothered to read it, you would have caught a few things. If you had been paying attention the last decade or so, you would have seen the red flags put up all over the place (not just in motor oil) about the failure of those claiming benefit with PTFE in lubrication applications to put forth any documentation of their claims.

It hasn't been done to this day-zip, nada, zero.

I can't help your stupidity (as you put it) but, if you need a quest to prove otherwise, show some evidence that PTFE ever helped anything but a frying pan.
Good luck in that quest, by the way-Dupont couldn't even do it. And thay actually have something to gain by proving it.

P.T. Barnum was right. Again.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: Rocketman Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/10/10 02:50 AM
Like what you read? I use it for aircraft landing gear bearings and shotguns. I'd probably just use Mobil 1 if I didn't have the 28 on-hand as there is not a lot of difference.

Hillbilly lube theory - Enough is good, more is better, and too much is perfect.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/10/10 03:14 AM
What do suppose the shear number is on sperm whale oil?

Best,
Ted
Posted By: TwiceBarrel Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/10/10 04:02 AM
Teddy are you on the sauce again? You must be to not understand that there is NO relationship between what happens inside an internal combustion engine operating at 260 degrees Fahrenheit with rotating speeds exceeding 3200 revolutions per minuet and what happens between a hinge pin and barrel hook at ambient air temperature and rotating speeds of a maximum of 12 partial rotations per minute.

If you don't understand that then there is no place for you in this discussion.

Quite frankly any corrosion inhibiting organic or inorganic solid or liquid lubricant that will adhere to metal will work fine to lubricate a hinge pin and barrel hook. Some just more in vogue than others.

Teddy you might try spraying a little solid film lubricant inside your beloved Remington 31. It will really slick that action up.
Posted By: Roundsworth Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/10/10 11:48 AM
CptCurl, I just looked through the forum you posted and found one reference to 'Outer's Gun Grease', which is what I use. It came with a gun cleaning kit I received as a gift 40 years ago and it has lasted a long time! Cheers!
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/10/10 11:52 AM
Originally Posted By: Ted Schefelbein
What do suppose the shear number is on sperm whale oil?

Best,
Ted


What does it matter ?
Posted By: CptCurl Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/10/10 08:40 PM
Originally Posted By: Roundsworth
CptCurl, I just looked through the forum you posted and found one reference to 'Outer's Gun Grease', which is what I use. It came with a gun cleaning kit I received as a gift 40 years ago and it has lasted a long time! Cheers!


I thought the interesting posts in that thread were made by "BigRx" who professed technical knowledge in the science of lubricants. He pointed to various criteria demonstrated by tests such as the "Timken OK load" test. For me the objectivity of scientific testing carries more credibility than tradition.

I think any good EP automotive grease is suitable when used properly.

Glad you liked the link.

Curl
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/10/10 09:57 PM
Ah, but there is a relationship, my stupid (again your words, not mine) friend-lubricants sold with the PTFE label attached COST more, regardless of use described on the label, and, honestly, people who buy them thinking they are getting something for their (extra) dollars, or rupels in Genos case (good to see that huxterism is truly a universal phenomenon-can you imagine the guffaws the marketing people suffered when they told us, in their advertising, that PTFE was the "most slippery substance known to man" and then, a sentence or two later, that this same slippery substance would "instantly bond to any metal" knowing folks like you would lap it up like chocolate sauce on a free ice cream cone?) spent seem to have missed the Dupont chairman's brutally honest answer that PTFE is not a lubricant.
It is hard to get around that FACT.
You pay more, and get less. And, you advise on a public forum, to do the same, idiotic thing you do. Oblivious to the fact that, regardless of application of oil with PTFE in it, nothing, and I mean nothing, has been gained. Not on a gun, not in a crankcase, not in two stroke oil, not, in fact, anywhere, in any petroleum product, it has been tried.
Oh, by the way-much as I would have liked to, I've never actually owned a model 31. Mix that in your cocktail, along with those anti-dementia medications that an able bodied, and (hopefully) younger, person administers to you. No doubt, an old timer like yourself can explain to all of us the truth of the statement, "Memory is the second thing to go".


Best,
Ted
Posted By: Jim Legg Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/10/10 10:50 PM
When you're collecting Whale Sperm Oil, isn't it best to find a friendly whale or do they automatically become friendly, as soon as the collecting starts? On a more serious, if less romantic note, neither oil nor grease "collect" dirt. Dirt will stick to either. Grease(my preference) will stay in place longer. the light oil used in old style air cleaners is there to give the dirt particles something to stick to, as they are brought through the filter by the air being sucked into the carburetor. They are not "attracted" by the oil. The important things, as many others have said, is to frequently clean off the old and replace with new, whether it's oil or grease. IMO, hinge pins or trunions ARE high stress areas because of the load placed on them(opening and closing the gun, cocking hammers and operating ejectors or extractors), not because of high RPMs or high heat.
Posted By: CptCurl Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/10/10 11:01 PM
Quote:
hinge pins or trunions ARE high stress areas because of the load placed on them(opening and closing the gun, cocking hammers and operating ejectors or extractors)


I would think the forces generated by firing the gun produce high stress also. It is said that grease is important for its cushion effect.

Again, I'm no expert, but I think a good modern grease is perfect. Use sparingly. Keep it clean and renewed.

Curl
Posted By: zwego Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/11/10 12:31 AM
A few thoughts on lubricants for firearms.
First, hinge pin lubrication requires a high pressure lubricant for best performance. These lubricants are typically high viscosity fluids such as bearing greases with special additives to prevent metal to metal contact - in a bearing during rotation or in a double during firing. Oils will not provide effective protection during firing over a long period of time. If you look at the specs for Mobil One bearing grease, it indicates that it has additives to “impart extreme pressure properties” which is what you are looking for in a bearing or hinge pin grease.
PTFE is a solid as stated earlier in this thread and is actually a micro sphere of PTFE (Teflon) suspended in a carrier. In an aerosol can, it is typically a volatile carrier, in liquids it is the “oil” component. These work by providing a large number of these micro spheres to the pressure surfaces where they are deposited as a film of sorts. This only happens with pressure so if you spray the material on and wipe it off, it is likely you have taken most of the PTFE off in your cloth. It does not bond to the surface without extremely high temperatures or some pressure to cause the polymer to conform to the metal surface.
Precision surfaces with relatively low to no impact force, such as sears, ejectors, etc can be lubricated with a light oil to provide appropriate separation of the metal surfaces. Grease will also work but not as effectively as a lower viscosity oil for this application.
In all of these gun lubrication scenarios, if you leave the grease/oil on the gun to accumulate grit, you have made a wonderful polishing compound. Over time, this will slowly erode the precision fitted surfaces and make them out of tolerance. The way to resolve this is to clean the surfaces each time you use the gun and replace the layer with a clean layer. Certainly modern lubricants can absorb some level of contamination and still function but, at least for my guns, a cheap “clean and replace” of the lubricant is the best approach.
For those curious, I use STOS for all high pressure bearing surfaces and Break Free for all sliding surfaces with low pressure and I replace the lubricant each time I use the gun.
Thanks
Z
Posted By: TwiceBarrel Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/11/10 12:39 AM
On a properly fitted pin and hook there is no movement on firing so there is no need for cushioning. The same goes for supposed stress of cocking, operating ejectors/extractors and what stress is involved with opening and closing the action? The hook and pin are a simple hinge with little bearing weight. I maintain that there are many many double guns that are quite functional, tight and on face after many years without ever having the pin and hook lubricated with anything more sophisticated than an occasional wipe down with sewing machine oil. Keep the pin and hook clean and free of corrosion, which only requires a slight amount of corrosion resistant lubricant, shoot ammunition that is appropriate for the gun and the gun will out last you. I have a 125 year old LC Smith that is tight as it was when it left the finishers bench in Syracuse in 1887 and a whole bunch of guns that are about half its age and absolutely non are loose at the hinge. Now over that time period I would suspect all never saw the likes of RIG, certainly not turbine engine oil and until recently anything more high tech than Breakfree applied to the hook and pin during routine cleaning. This has been a fun exercise but in the whole quite useless.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/11/10 12:52 AM
Actually, if one examines what is typically found in polishing/lapping compounds, you will discover pretty quickly that the grease/carrier is almost always water soluble, meaning it is water based, and has no load or shear strength, and the abrasives are pretty intense, typically, silicon carbide, garnet, boron carbide, aluminum oxide or diamond. The grit that accumulates after firing a gun, lubricated with a good quality, EP grease can't begin to compare with these, and good quality EP grease will hold a quantity of debris in suspension, where it can't hurt anything, by design.
I think it was McIntosh who originally compared the two, and it is a bit misleading. The debris that results from firing a gun, if mixed with a good quality EP grease, will be a very inefficient lapping compound.
That doesn't mean you shouldn't keep it clean, but, you have more time and far better lubrication than if you did use valve lapping compound.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: zwego Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/11/10 01:00 AM
If there is no movement between the hinge pin and the corresponding "hook" the gun could not open. There is some and that small amount of movement will be magnified over time. Try to take a new wheel bearing and find lateral movement in it and there is essentially none (typically a few thousands) but it is enough to allow rotation - but also enough to have an issue with impact pressure, which is what bearing greases are designed to do. Calculate the pressure of firing on the relatively small effective contact area on the hinge pin and you will find extremely high pressure effects, although for very short times.
Can virtually any lubricant work - yes but not optimally. That is why there are a variety of lubricants that are available. You can choose to use them (or not) and prolong the life of your firearm as you choose.
Thanks
Z
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/11/10 01:19 AM
Great attempt, but, I think you are wasting your time with him-if he didn't understand that zero clearance=zero movement, when he typed that less-than-well thought out response, and some clearance=need for lubrication, you might as well be at the beach.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: Geno Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/11/10 02:49 PM
There is no hinge pin wearing, when you shooting, hinge pin wearing occures when you open and close your guns. Also its myth about extreme pressures on hinge pin when shooting, it will be enough to draw diagram with all hooks, bites and bolt to figure out all impuls and to understand it and most important its time while this forces will effect, its really Extremely short time.
I could call several old gun experts that wrote about using light oil with wiping it for hinge pins, its not my idea, it was long time practice. And most important is to renew lubes on hinge pins after every hunting or every shooting.
Posted By: Jim Legg Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/11/10 03:19 PM
Originally Posted By: TwiceBarrel
On a properly fitted pin and hook there is no movement on firing so there is no need for cushioning. The same goes for supposed stress of cocking, operating ejectors/extractors and what stress is involved with opening and closing the action? The hook and pin are a simple hinge with little bearing weight. I maintain that there are many many double guns that are quite functional, tight and on face after many years without ever having the pin and hook lubricated with anything more sophisticated than an occasional wipe down with sewing machine oil. Keep the pin and hook clean and free of corrosion, which only requires a slight amount of corrosion resistant lubricant, shoot ammunition that is appropriate for the gun and the gun will out last you. I have a 125 year old LC Smith that is tight as it was when it left the finishers bench in Syracuse in 1887 and a whole bunch of guns that are about half its age and absolutely non are loose at the hinge. Now over that time period I would suspect all never saw the likes of RIG, certainly not turbine engine oil and until recently anything more high tech than Breakfree applied to the hook and pin during routine cleaning. This has been a fun exercise but in the whole quite useless.


You've brought up a lot of points, every one of them wrong! Any 125 yr. old gun that is still tight as new has either been used very little or had extremely good care(as in keeping the hinge area clean and freshly lubed). Most likely both. Unless you owned the gun over its lifetime, you can't possibly know what its maintenance and use history has been. I DO agree that high tech, $19.95 per eyedropper full are probably a waste of money, but keeping these areas clean and freshly lubed is the best way to prolong the life of your guns. JMO, as always. You're entitled to have yours. smile
Posted By: Franc Otte Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/11/10 04:02 PM
Lads...
My preferred hinge pins lube is the rendered down fat from the Venezuelan Beaver, Fe-mail, as the male grease has a rather rancid smell,especially in a "Hot Corner" smile
If I run out, I use something slick n greasy.. & clean & re beaver after any shooting .
So far so good
Franc
Posted By: TwiceBarrel Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/11/10 04:03 PM
Originally Posted By: Jim Legg
[quote=TwiceBarrel]
You've brought up a lot of points, every one of them wrong!


I had fully intended to exit this conversation with my last post but Mr. Legg has made some serious claims so Mr. Legg please enlighten me if you can. And explain the functions of the rest of the locking system including the under bites, barrel extension, extension hook and cross bolts etc. Are they just extraneous parts added at the whim of the designer?
Posted By: 2-piper Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/11/10 04:31 PM
On a properly fitted pin and hook there is no movement on "FIRING". Obviously you didn't read the post well. The hinge is "NOT" rotating (Moving) while under the load of firing.
On a well designed gun there is in fact very little pressure upon the Hinge while it is "Opening", unless of course it has one of those DUMB compensating springs in the forend to create friction upon both the hinge & the knuckle joint. Clean light oil has proven itself to work well. I would not prefer to open mine with "Dry" hinges.
Posted By: David Williamson Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/11/10 04:56 PM
Franc, I like your reasoning.
If anyone doesn't think that grease or oil is an attractor to dirt, put some grease, oil and then nothing on paint stirer and let it stand outside and see what was "attracted" it it.
As far as comparing an auto's intake and either a babbited bearing or roller bearing, they ride on a thin film of oil. In the 50's, early 60's autos intake cleaner had oil in them to stop the particles from going into the carburetor. High performance ones like K&N still do this, but we are talking hinge pins and not rpms.
I don't believe in using grease, but use a lite coat of oil when cleaning the gun after use. If I did use something else it might be Molycote or a graphite powder, which to me is a better lubricant than oil or grease and will not gather dirt or foreign matter.
Posted By: zwego Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/11/10 10:45 PM
In order to “resolve” or cancel the forces from firing, the hinge pin must absorb the force. The bite(s) prevent the gun from opening when fired but do not significantly impact the resolution of the force from firing. The standing breech is where the force starts, it is transmitted to the barrel which moves forward slightly when the firing occurs. The brass provides a gasket between the standing breech and the barrel but also transmits the load to the barrel. This load or force is stopped or resolved by the hook and pin. Therefore, there is high pressure exerted on this area for very short times but there is pressure none the less. There is also movement as the metal in the water table flexes slightly on firing. The flexing is what is minimized by a longer water table and the action is prevented from cracking by the radius between the standing breech and the water table. The bolts and corresponding bites lock the barrel to the water table so that they flex as a unit but the forward thrust is resolved by the hinge pin alone.
Thanks
Z
Posted By: 2-piper Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/11/10 11:17 PM

""the forward thrust is resolved by the hinge pin alone.""

Certainly not on all guns. A well fitted cross bolt or doll's head shares the load as does the front face of the rear lug on a double under-bolted gun. It is certaijnly stretching things a LOOONG way to claim there is rotational movement of the hinge during firing, with the gun bolted shut.

Some years ago an Uncle of mine was wanting about a 70HP tractor. He found one a dealer had sold, then taken back because the first owner decided he needed a larger one for his use. It was hardly broken in & the dealer offered my uncle a very good deal on it with a full warranty. After putting about 100 hrs on it he couldn't keep oil in it, called the dealer. They came & picked it up. Found a little rubber hose had been left off at the factory which connected the air cleaner to the intake. Rings were eaten up, the dust/grit had imbedded into the cast iron cylinder sleeve & devoured them. Be hard to convince him this could only happen with a "WATER" based carrier.
Posted By: Geno Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/11/10 11:27 PM
There were one experience long time ago, all bolts and bites were taken off from the sxs gun, then gun been loaded, closed and fired. And what d'you think the power of one hand was enough gun stayed closed during and after firing.
Just in case don't do it at home wink I have read it somewhere, don't remember.
Posted By: Jim Legg Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/11/10 11:52 PM
Nobody suggested that the hinge pin rotated, during firing. But when opening and closing after firing, the hook sure as heck moves around the pin or trunions. All you have to do is compare the force necessary to open and close a gun after firing with opening and closing the same gun while already cocked. If you don't understand that a lot of work is going on here, you're untrainable. Open any break-open gun with the forend removed or with the hook broken off and see if the hammers get cocked.
Locking lugs and bites are also areas of high stress and potential wear. They need to be cleaned and lubed as well. My preference again is grease.
Please explain the physics involved in the greased paint stirrer "attracting" dirt. Maybe its the way mouse paper works. The sticky coating "attracts" the mouse. OR, just maybe, the mouse walked across the paper and got stuck. The top surfaces of any furniture in the house get a film of dust on them. Attraction? Of course not! Iron is attracted to a magnet. Dirt is not "attracted" by anything other than maybe static electricity. Not by paint paddles or gun oil.
Posted By: Roundsworth Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/12/10 12:16 AM
Geno, I just read something in an early Lefever catalog or advertisement about holding the action closed with bare hands after removing locking devices. The shooter was able to hold the barrels down while firing, due to the close fit of the doll's head extension.
Posted By: David Williamson Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/12/10 12:19 AM
Well Jim, seems like you always want an arguement. I only brought the paint stick up as a reference to some that think that dirt, fowlings etc. will not be attracted to the grease or oil. The example of the paint stick, grease on top, then oil film, then nothing, a little wind with dirt blowing around or a mouse, and see what is stuck to the stick. I'll bet the grease and the oil have particles in them, and the part with nothing has just that, nothing.
By the way the sticky mouse paper is not going to catch a mouse if there is nothing to "attract" him on to it.
Posted By: Jim Legg Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/12/10 12:34 AM
The story of holding the action closed with the thumb just proves there is no great force at work, that's trying to break the gun open. It says nothing about the hook and pin not having a very important job to do.
Posted By: TwiceBarrel Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/12/10 12:44 AM
Actually it was a demonstration done by Winchester extolling their design of their then new Winchester Model 21.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/12/10 12:48 AM
So, Geno,
Are you going to keep "swindling" us with tall tales of how great your PTFE gun lubricants are?
The chairman of Duponts comments notwithstanding?
I think you and jOe should get together to milk a sperm whale, and add PTFE to whatever you get out of the whale-must be a million suckers that would pay lots of dollars for the, uh, result-twicebarrel comes to mind, anyway.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: Geno Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/12/10 12:48 AM
Jim, tommorow I will make one photo of one old hinge pin, that has been replaced and messurements for you to understand, that there is nothing involved in pin wearness besides greese with "dust" and open-close movements.
BTW, don't you know clay shooting guns is allways remain in better condition, than hunting ones, though clay guns shoot much more rounds. What d'you think why is that?

Ted, come back here when you'll get smarter and not so ugly.
Posted By: rabbit Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/12/10 01:19 AM
3-in-1 + petroleum jelly = RIG. Well it's the same color anyway and mixed in a RIG can, it's hard to tell the difference. That's why I still have my RIG can long after I ran out of RIG. Let us all be vigilant in fighting pin wearness! Actually, it was J. M. Browning or Val or the cleaning lady who fired a Super (genuine B-25 to you, Genady) with the lock block removed and no negatives such as violent rotation about the hinge pin. I currently prefer something slick and thin and Mobil synthetic racing oil pleases me and if it don't please the gun, well it doesn't squeak enuf to get the grease.

jack
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/12/10 01:52 AM
3-in-1 is actually a vegetable oil and petroleum oil blend, if'n it's in the red can-the blue can, with a car or engine on the front, is straight petroleum oil.
Schwinn bicycle company, late of Chicago, IL had a warning against using 3-in-1 on their bike chains or in their three speed hubs, built by Sturmey Archer, due to that fact.
I think it works great for lube while drilling holes, and keep a squirt can of it on the drill press table.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: zwego Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/12/10 02:14 AM
For those interested, I would refer you to Don Zutz’s book, “The Double Shotgun” where in Chapter 7 he goes into detail about the three key stresses placed on a double when fired. These are axial force down the bore, radial force which is around the hinge pin and bending force which goes from the breech face through the hinge pin. He specifically says the “radial force pertains to the rotational movement of the barrel assembly around the hinge or knukle pin of a drop-barrel shotgun.” He further says that the “single most important job of a double’s bolting system is minimizing the bending force’s impact on the action frame.” In all cases, the force of this bending goes through the hinge pin, hence the issue of high pressure for short duration. A similar explanation is also in "American Shotgun Design and Performance" by Wallack.
On a Win 21, the water table is unusually long and reduces the bending force by changing the lever arm that is exerted on the action which is why this is one of the strongest double actions. It probably also explains why this can be held closed.
Thanks
Z
Posted By: 2-piper Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/12/10 04:02 AM
I have no idea who was the first to ever fire a break open double with the bolts removed, "BUT" both W W Gereener & D M Lefever stated it as fact long before Win was making a 21 or Browning was making a Super. I don't have a 21 at hand to measure, but I believe the bar on a Lefever is equally as long, if not longer. The 21 of course has absolutely nothing in its design to contain the axial thrust except the hinge pin. The Lefever design assisted it with his square shouldered Doll's Head, with the bolt at the top to also help resist frame bending.
One Shoe don't fit every foot when you go talking gun design.
Posted By: Geno Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 11/12/10 03:59 PM
For whom who likes sperm oil, this oil could be reaplaced by neatsfoot oil, oil made from animal joints. Its very light oil and been in use for clocks and watches and now for leather restoring.
I got one small bottle of this oil and use it as black powder patched bullet lubrication mix with bee wax. This mix works just fine.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 12/11/10 03:46 PM
Still with RIG here.
Posted By: Franchi Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 12/11/10 04:06 PM
Hi Zwego:

What are those small characters that you have in your texts?

I aint very smart, but are you typing on a typewriter that has a foreign language keyboard?

Thanks,

Franchi
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 12/11/10 04:47 PM
So, Geno, you went from non-lubricant PTFE mixed in petroleum base, and then wiped off, to neatsfoot oil in the space of this discussion?
They are both crap. At least when compared to any synthetic lubricant, in any kind of head to head test, of any type and for any use, that can be dreamed up.

Try to argue that point.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: Krakow Kid Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 12/11/10 06:20 PM
I guess it's about time I weigh in with what I use. Drum roll. please.........RIG GREASE

Philbert - just this morning I found a little tube of Rig stainless steel oil, said "harumph" and put it back where I found it. Couldn't remember it at all. Little did I know the cosmic wheels were in motion because I just happened to see that's what you use. I KNOW your double guns ain't stainless - why this over the RIG grease?
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 12/11/10 07:19 PM
Originally Posted By: Krakow Kid
I KNOW your double guns ain't stainless - why this over the RIG grease?


Krakow, the 'stainless steel oil' isn't for stainless steel; its for when you get it on your hands and wipe'm off on your pants leg, it won't stain your pants...thought everybody knew that...Geo
Posted By: rabbit Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 12/11/10 07:35 PM
I also use Neatsfoot oil and beeswax mixture to soak felt overpowder wads for bp percussion revolver. BP doesn't take kindly to petroleum oil.

jack
Posted By: 2-piper Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 12/11/10 07:55 PM
A 50/50 mix of Mutton Tallow & Beeswax is supposed to be very good as a Black Powder lubricant, wads, patches, minnies what have you. The Mutton tallow is nowheree near as prone to going Rancid as Hog lard.
Posted By: Krakow Kid Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 12/11/10 10:29 PM
OK, the thread has suddenly switched to Blackpowder. I'll play along, I have many BP doubles. I've always found just melted bore butter or beeswax and rendered bear fat mixed gives great lubrication. The best ever was the ORIGINAL Lehigh Valley. Truly miraculous stuff, use it as a patch lube or a rust retardent when your gun is put away for awhile. Fantastic, but all good things come to an end. The company was sold and whatever they've been pushing the last couple years AIN'T the same stuff.

Oh yeah, almost forgot. George I stopped wearing that suit of armor YEARS ago. Your info sure coulda helped back in the day, that's fer sure.
Posted By: Philbert Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 12/12/10 01:27 AM
KK,

Rig Universal grease is tackier and designed more for heavy duty environmental protection where as the +P stainless lube is much slicker while still being highly viscous. The +P lube was designed to prevent metal-to-metal galling that can occur between stainless steel semi-auto slides and guides. Yeah, I know, probably overkill but $5 worth will lube hinge pins for years.
Posted By: Krakow Kid Re: Hinge Pin Survey - 12/13/10 01:13 AM
Thanks Philbert - You took me back in time to when I was a centerfire handgun nut and used the stuff on a couple of stainless 1911's. A blued one,too,actually. And you make a good point. Thanks again.
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