Hi all, I just got (used) a Manson WTG, but with no instructions. I know that Mike posted some pics on this, but I was wondering if I could get some instructions (in plain english). The e-mailed instrctions from Manson, are not the best without the pics.

So......help please!

All the best!

Greg

I can try to help you if you want to use it in the horizontal position.

Put the assembled gun upside down on a table. Extend the barrels about 18" over the end of the table.

Hang one tyne of the fork in the barrel. Hang the tyne that goes in the barrel, not the one with the dial gauge. Adjust the dial gauge until it reads zero.

Push the gauge into the barrel and read the wall thickness on the dial gauge as it goes down the barrel.

This is how to do it with the Truth Tool. The Manson may be different in some details.

Best,

Mike

This picture shows the tyne hung in the end of the barrel: Notice that the left end of the gauge hangs from my thumb so that I don't torque it and mis adjust the zero point.

This picture shows that the gauge reads zero after it is adjusted. This is before you start taking measurements:



Then you slide the forks down the barrel and read the thickness:


Clear as mud I am sure. Good luck.

Mike

I like to hang the outer end on a string or wire to ensure that I don't torque the setup in any way.
AND the prong inside the barrel must NOT touch the barrel except with the ball on the end!

Does anyone know where if there is a stand up wtg that is as reasonably priced as the mason?

I just can't see why this can't be done with lasers, mass produced and sold inexpensively. Or......ultrasound. I may work on that.

Hi all, Thanks Mike!!!! I think I got it, but I do have a couple more questions.

When you put the fork in the bbl to read, do you let it touch any of bbl wall? From the pic it looks like you don't.

Also, I have the model with the plastic reinforcer. What's the right way to use this device?

OSF, great tip on the string!!! My unit weighs a ton and this idea sure helps.

Thanks again for all the help!

Greg

No, only the ball.

I don't know what the plastic reinforcer is.

And you are very welcome.

I hang mine on a heavy cord, from the ceiling, hanging over two screw-in hooks. The dial indicator is down. By sliding the barrel(s) up the ball and shaft, this puts very little side pressure on the gauge. Gives the most accurate readings, IME. I also added a wire tensioner to help maintain tension against the probe. Rabbit has one similar to mine. Maybe he will post some pictures.

Are you talking about the white bock that slips over the two rods? That is only used in shipping to prevent damage to the rods.

Pete

If you are handy you can make a vertical bench WTG for around 100.00. Having owned a Manson gauge for a year or so I decided a bench gauge made better sense to me. After making several prototypes I settled on the one pictured below. The base is aluminum 1.25 thick x 6 x 6, it is heavy enough to stabilize the tool so the weight of the barrels will not tip it over. The post that the dial is mounted on is 3/4”, it is rigid enough and won't deflect easily. The post for the probe is 5/8” drill rod and will clear 12ga and 16ga barrels, there is a brass nub for the dial indicator to rest against, it also has a hole drilled for a 1/2” rod for 28 and 20ga barrels. An important feature is the collar and brass bushing on the probe, it allows easy adjustment for depth of the probe, the brass bushing with the taper centers the barrels on the probe and allows rotating the barrels, originally I planned on installing a Gaddy spring but it really is not necessary. I have also discovered a digital gauge is easier to read than one with a dial. I sold my Manson gauge to Greg, but did experiment using a digital gauge with it, a real improvement. Pete the white block also helps stiffen the probe and as a stop when measuring shorter depths.

Jim A

Happy to post pix of a tuning fork-type gauge in use suspended from overhead but can't get access to P-bucket due to some BBBSSS about six character passwords. Some of us here, including JL and myself, employ the gauge in the vertical orientation based on the experience and recommendations of the late Oscar Gaddy regarding methods to reduce manipulation-induced error. Some of us also have a piano wire spring (or spring-actuated brass lever) opposite the anvil ball on the internal "tyne" (sic) of the fork, intended to hold the anvil in contact with barrel wall by pushing against opposite wall. This is, or used to be, called the "Gaddy modification".

I've arrived at the point where I don't think it matters all that much whether you keep your sox up with garters or with new-fangled elastic. Certainly, the extension past the anvil on the internal rod of the Hosford model (and on AM's "truth" gauge presumably) is important in that it allows Mike and Hosford to zero their gauge while accounting for gravitational deflection of cantilevered weight. Mike's photo of that vital procedure is very clear for a gauge in which the anvil is a bearing ball located away from the bitter end of the internal rod. This is almost impossible to do with a rod on which the anvil or contact point for the gauge plunger is a turned or screwed-on swelling at the very end of the rod.

Pix of mine later mebbe.

jack

James,is this type of wtg available commercially? It is just what I need,but I'm not up to making one. Justin

Sorry to derail the conversation with another question, but here's hoping for a merciful answer.

I need a bore diameter gauge and a wall thickness gauge so I can better understand the state of prospective gun purchases. I hear names like truth gauge and others but no links to buy them, leaving me calling around to find out the order of magnitude of such expenses.

Can someone recommend the most cost affordable 12 bore solution to bore diameter and wall thickness gauges sold turn-key? How about a solution that does 12-28? Anything exist under $200?

Thanks!

Jim,

I like the digital gauge. Don't know why it never occurred to me.

I will have to try the white block for that.

One of the things I did was to put a hash mark every inch on the rod with a permanent marker. Makes it easier to tell the depth that way.

I picked this up years ago. It will measure to a depth of six inches. Very handy to bring to a gun show.







Pete

There is some difference of opinion on wall thickness gauges. The Manson that is available from Brownells is the least expensive. The Manson was designed to be used in the vertical position. Eightbore has been using it in the horizontal and apparently so have others. My shooting student Joe Wood, who introduced me to the Truth Tool, and I both think the Truth Tool is the better tool although it costs $200 or so. It was designed to be used in the horizontal, to hang the rod in the end of the barrel for zeroing, and is light enough to take into gunshows. There are those here whose opinions I respect that like the Manson and Hosford better. The Hosford gauge is about $500 I think.

Here is a link to a discussion that occured over in the classifieds:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=214417#Post214417 It has a link to the Manson and contact information for Johnathan Pool who makes and sells the Truth Tool.



Best,

Mike

Thanks Mike,

Please realize I get confused easily on this topic. Are the Manson, Truth Tool and Hosford all multifunction? Meaning, are they all BOTH bore diameter and wall thickness gauges?

This is the Galazan tool, over $500.


This is the Hosford tool, about $500




This is the Manson tool, $100 at Brownell's


Pete

They all look like Wall Thickness Gauges. What do I buy to measure bore diameter so I know that the gun I'm considering is within proof range?

$100 Manson tool for wall thickness + how much for bore diameter?

The Skeet's gage is what you want. It cost $100.00 and will measure 12 ga.and will read to about 12" into bore. You can get one from 100 Straight that measures 4 gauges, but that is $400.00, and measures to about 16". If you go to 100 Straight's web site, they list that you can get the 4 gauge set, with and pick the gauges you want. I believe that Glazan sells the same thing but you take their set of 4 gauges.

Justin and others, the digital gauge pictured is available from Harbor Freight for about 35.00. The reason I went to a vertical bench gauge is that you do not have to deal with deflection of the probe although you do not have the portability of the Manson type gauge, as I don't go to gun shows shows thats not an issue with me A party on the trapshooters forum sells a bore gauge similar to the Skeets gauge that is made of better material for just a little more, it is also offered in an 18" version. The Skeets gauge at one time was offered with a 12-16ga head and 20-28ga head for about 200.00. But you could also buy 2 separate tools for the same price which makes better sense. About 25 years ago I had a Chubb bore gauge that would measure if I remember correctly 12-20 ga. It used a positive system to gauge bores instead of the sticky balls of most gauges you see today. It was made in England of the best material and workmanship, I wouldn't want to guess what it would cost today.

Thanks,James

No, two different tools. The Manson, Truth Tool, and Hosford are wall thickness gauges. Brownells' sells a bore gauge for not too much money - About $90 as I remember.

Best,

Mike

Justin, which gauge is available from Harbor Freight for $35? Is it good to go as a wall thickness gauge?

Rookhawk, the bore and choke gauge to which Amarillo refers is the Skeets. You can get it as either a "universal" set with two heads (one for 10-12-16, the other for 20-28) for $182, or you can buy two separate gauges, one for the big bores and one for the small ones. As someone suggested, the latter choice is better--they're $90 apiece, so you're paying the same money, but you get an extra shaft and dial if you buy the two separately. And if you're carrying them around, like to a gun show or something, you can change heads and recalibrate, so you only have to carry one shaft/dial. But nice to have a spare.

I don't think any of the tools will do both wall thickness and bore/choke. Maybe the Hosford??

I think he is referring just to the digital micrometer. Brownell sells the 12-16 or 20-28 Skeets bore gauge for about $94 each. They also sell the Manson wall thickness gauge for about $100. Galazan sells a bore gauge similar to the Skeets gauge for a little over $100, maybe $125. Although Oscar Gaddy's modification to the Manson gauge was the best option at the time, I was taught by the maker of the best gauge on the market, Jon Hosford, how to use the Manson accurately in the horizontal position. This allows you to utilize the gauge at a gun show or auction house table without worrying about how to suspend it from above. Jon realizes that not everyone can afford his gauge and is generous enough to share his expertise on how to properly operate a $100 gauge.

Gentlemen,

Thank you for your advice and clarifications. Here is what I did:

I bought the Manson Wall Thickness Gauge from Brownells for $100.00.

I bought the skeets 12/16 dial bore diameter gauge from Brownells for $85.00.

I bought the choke / chamber gauge from Galazan for $45.00.

So for $230 I can now understand the state of a 12 or 16 bore gun. For another $85 I could be all set for 20/28 to round out the list.

I'm just thankful I can decide whether to buy or not buy, to hone or not hone.

Thanks for your kind responses to my questions.

The Galazan type choke gauges frequently give incorrect readings as the bore diameters vary 0.020" from one barrel to the next. Often on a double barrel gun one barrel's bore diameter doens't match the other.

Best,

Mike

Mike is correct. I have owned several British guns with one barrel at 12 and the other at 13/1 . So marked.

I don't own one, but Tony's brass gauge works pretty well for chambers. I do it the hard way, with a machinist's scale.

I was wondering... If someone was frugal, couldn't you obtain wall thickness by using a bore diameter gauge, making notes every half inch, then repeat the process from the outside using a simple dial caliper?

And another question: can someone teach me the right way to measure choke since the galazan tool is imprecise? Can I do it with the other instruments I now know? Can I claim choke based solely on patterning board results?

Works in theory but doesn't account for eccentricity of bore to exterior caused by "striking" (filing to finish O.D.). As a matter of verifiable fact, no W/T gauge has access to the area joined by the ribs. If frugality is the aim, Rookhawk, you could money back that brass "ring sizer" to Tony G and measure the differential bore to choke with your Skeets bore mic. If you want to build a better mousetrap like that of James I. ,a simple needle indicator from Harbour Freight is even cheaper than a digi--probably about 15$. Pattern board will sure show you the spread and the usable concentration. Enjoy your new toys!

jack

Rook, you measure the choke with the Skeets gauge. Muzzle diameter minus bore diameter equals choke constriction.

I agree with Jack, send the Galazan gage back and use the Skeet's gage. In doing the choke, to me it is easier that once the indicator is zeroed to the .700 ring, insert into barrel, read bore size to full length (11 1/2" on mine) and then reset to zero and with-draw and read choke. Easy to see what difference there is.(Bill doesn't approve of this method)

Also the Skeet's will measure 16 ga. But if you do not have a ring gage to go by it is easy to get confused by subtracting the bores form the dial. Also some earlier 16 ga. were .650 bore and later were .662. I know this is true for L.C. Smith's but not sure of others.
In measuring the .650 bores will be tough because the brass head is .625 and so the balls are almost into the head and will not fit into the bore with any choke.

I agree with eightbore. The Galazan chamber gauge is a handy tool. The drop-in brass choke gauge only works if the bore diameter is standard. Especially in foreign guns, it's often a good bit off standard, so you get a false reading.

I agree with JD as he agrees with jr. "Handy" Larry? There's a "test tube" rack at our club skeet range with about three of these step gauges. Galazan didn't invent the darn things. I think ours were turned by Brent Warner. The skeet "Nazi" doesn't understand; he wants to stick the damn things in every barrel that comes down the pike. Repeat after me: .729" is fine (and appropriate diameters for other gauges)" but it's not mine.

The phrase that clears out the confusion (except for the skeet Nazi)is "points of constriction". Constriction is getting tighter as in "choking". Points is thousandths of an inch. Constriction is ALWAYS measured relative to the major bore diameter. It does not yield an ABSOLUTE measurement wall to wall in the choke area! Those who persist in Ass U Me-ing otherwise are tedious in their refusal to learn. The I.D. of your choked area is X thousandths less than the I.D. of your bore. That's the bore of a particular barrel of YOUR gun; not someone else's gun or an accepted standard ("nominal" bore size for a particular gauge.

jack

The book refered to above is The Standard Directory of Proofmarks and is available from Amazon for 16.00

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_37?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=the+standard+directory+of+proof+marks&sprefix=the+standard+directory+of+proof+marks

I know this is an old thread, but we didn't answer JDW's last question. It doesn't matter what the bore diameter is, you use the .700 ring on the Skeet's or Galazan micrometer to zero your micrometer and determine the bore and choke of your 16 or 12 gauge based on the .700 base figure. Again, the difference between the bore and the choke at the muzzle is the choke dimension. When you are buying an expensive gun and originality is your goal, you have to know what "original" is and what your prospective purchase measures. Rookhawk will pay for his gauges on his first purchase. He has bought the right tools without paying an exorbitant price.