I am looking for a set of drivers for my vintage English guns. Unfortunately price is important. Would everyone please give me the benefit of their experience and help with this purchase.
Thanks
Justin
Justin, Brownells sells a pretty good "Thin Bit Set" for $45. You'll need thin ones for Brit guns.
If you have access to a drill press buy a tip grinding wheel from Brownells and make your own from old round and hex shaft drivers or tools.
Brownells also sells a set of thin bits for their MagnaBit drivers.
I grind the China imports into the sizes I need. Strange, but the steel is very good and hold up well, don't over heat. The net result is you can get a bunch of custom bits for $5.
bill
I don't mind admitting that grinding my own bits is a "bit" too much for me;being all thumbs at the workbench. Starting out with a store bought set may be the best course.
if you cant grind your tools then why would you work on your guns.i'm not trying to be a jerk but you can build some skill making your own tools,unless you are looking for decorator tool's for your case mc
No,mc,no decorative tools,just a cleaning problem with my Scott Monte Carlo. It has those little barrel cams in the action flat that,when just a tad,dirty gum up the works and jams the action.
Best way to clean things up is to remove them and clean the holes out with solvent. Thus I need a small driver to remove the screws that hold them in place. The one I used is not a good fit and I fear damaging the screws.
I have one of those Brownell's thin blade sets.
They almost fit lots of things. Almost.
I never understood WHY gunmakers have to use such narrow slots. Even custom made 'turnscrews' are subject to breakage, and the screw is almost always damaged.
Perhaps it keeps them in business making replacement screws ("pins"). Or... it's designed as an obstacle to keep the idiot customer out of his gun.
How cool would it be to have a great quality gun built with Torx fasteners?
The best you can do is to carefully grind your own screwdriver.
Go slow, so as not to burn the hardness out of the steel.
Start with a good one. This is no place for chinese crap.
How cool would it be to have a great quality gun built with Torx fasteners?
The new Galazan/CSMC O/U's have some Torx fasteners, and there has been flack from some traditionalists.
Another vote for Brownells. They have a good website if you don't have access to catalog.
Another for Brownells thin Magna-tips.
I one had a set of those square, reddish-brown wood handled screwdrivers that come in sets of six or so (Grace, maybe?)and the steel was pretty nasty.
those little cams pull the cocking arms back so it wont get in the way of the lock firing. a little gum won't stop them from working.maybe you have something else wrong with your gun.like crud on the cocking arms. mc (i have a monte carlo B and haven't had any trouble at all)
well,that thought did cross my mind. I am not of a mind to turn the gun over to a 'smith and say "this happened,please make it not happen again". Cleaning out that litle hole made the gun work again,when that fails {hopefully never} I'll look deeper Maybe I'll have it sripped and cleaned soon.
Thanks for the idea.
if i were you i wouldn't wait for it to quit working again you might have a small dirt, hardened oil, problem that might cause a lock part failure and that will not be a good thing mc
Wheeler has an 89 piece set on amazon for $79. I found this set to be pretty good even after receiving mixed reviews. Brownells is considerably more money for their version and it comes with fewer pieces. The key to not buggering a screw is to have the right sized turnscrew. It hardly seems worth owning the "best" 15 piece kit when even the best quality ill-fitting turnscrew will ruin a gun.
mc,point well taken. Since Alfred Gallifent passed I haven't found a 'smith within driving distance of my home here in the DC metro area. If anyone has suggestions I would appreciate hearing from them.
Hi All;
Just a few thoughts about screwdrivers.
I bought a set of Wheelers from my local gun shop for $69.00 and it was the best buy that I made in awhile!
I have been using a set of Grace screwdrivers since 1961 and have not found anything better.
I too got the bright idea of buying cheap screwdrivers and grinding them to fit but I met with disaster. The metal that they use in the manufacture if these tings is too soft for any use after being reground! Save your money and time! You can't make a silk purse...
Good luck,
Leomat
Did you harden them after they were ground?
Good luck. I have tried all brands of drivers, also had some custom ground. None worth a shit. Speaking of screws, the slots on the Italian guns are the worst.
John Boyd
if you harden your screw drivers or use really hard screw drivers you have a chance of breaking the tip and it sliding along your gun.i know some people anneal the Brownell drivers to prevent this from happening.i know there are several thoughts on this.so john what do you use? mc
Wheeler set is what I got a few years ago at IWA Nurmberg and for the limited use I need them they are just fine. Select the tips slowly till you find the "perfect" one and don't rush. If you are not comfortable about that special gun ask an experinced friend or visit a gunsmith you trust. Better late than sorrow -freshly damaged screwheads are depressing.
With kind regards,
Jani
Hi Recoil Rob:
No,I did not attempt to harden them. I had no idea as to what alloy was used to make these things, I would just be guessing as to the heat treatment process!
Had the steel shown a bit of promise, I would have attempted a cursory heat treatment.
Loomat
Franchi, I think you are right. If you are not sure what type of steel and to what temperature to harden and anneal, then leave it alone, especiallly screw drivers that cost $.99.
I did buy some at one time and did grind them, the hardest part is making the tip parallel with the slot and not to hollow ground it, but to make the tip fit perfecftly. Hand holding doesn't do it. If you had a surface grinder, then yes.
The Wheeler set is great for American guns. I don't have any for my Greener and I sure would not grind something unfamiliar and try it on those small slots. Even with the right ones for the Greener I would be speptical on them working. They have been there for over a hundred years.
get the Brownells Magnatip - with a set of the thin blades. They are fantastic and will fit virtually every gun.
If you break one it doesn't matter, just buy a new tip for a couple of $. I imported a full set to Britain and cannot recommend them highly enough. I have a many English guns and FN Superposed and the thin tip set fits all of them without modification.
In my old Brit gunsmithing book it tells/shows how to make screwdrivers from old car springs. Then they are used in a brace so the 'smith's weight can be properly applied to the screw hahaha. Obviously technique is central to not buggering the screws. And undeniable force with that brace
Fabbris use torx screws. Perazzi prolly would too if they had any screws of any consequence.
Dr.Wts
Thanks Wts
I recently sold my drill press, but I do still have an old brace laying at the bottom of my misc tools drawer. It's good to now have another use for it.
Steve
I have to say that the Wheeler set is very well packaged and useless!!!!!
Buy them from Sheffield, you can find good quality Sheffield steel blades in old ironmonger stores look for the Stanley brand name if it doesn't fit the screw slot FILE it to fit and then finish it off by stoning with an arkansas stone.
The 'Gunsmiths' sets are only okay for hobbiests creating work for gunsmiths.IMHO.
As an amateur, novice, hobbyist "gunsmith" who haas buggered a few screws in the past despite filing tips to match slots and being careful, perhaps I need some pointers on technique. Any web-based tutorials?
Do real gunsmiths use a brace on all sorts of screws? I saw a photo in the archives of CrossedChisels using a brace when removing a hinge pin. Looked like a special case.
On my present project, I've been stymied by a very small screw that holds the cam that retracts the locking lugs. Tried penetrating oil, heat, and vibration and finally gave up after minor buggering.
SDH, great article. Thanks for posting.
Thanks, SDH.
Very enlightening.
Regards, Tim
Steve, very nice tutorial, also as you stated, very hard to do freehand.
The one thing to remember about store bought screwdrivers is that most/all are wedge ground and only the top part of the wedge is grabbing the slot. A parallel ground screwdriver, the whole tip is grabbing the slot.
I’ll add my 2 cents (about all it’s worth)
I like the Brownells screw driver bits. First they carry a large assortment, and the bits are hard, but not so hard that they will snap the blades off, instead if the bit is pushed beyond its limits the blades will twist or bend. Blades that snap off will almost always cause you to make an unsightly gouge somewhere.
I mostly work on Old Colts and Winchesters, the screw slots are pretty standardized for those makers, i.e.. .200 dia head = .030-.032 width screw slot, I’ve pretty much gotten all them memorized.
On guns that have not been apart in a while, I always put a drop or two of Penetrant (Kroil Liquid Wrench etc) in the screw slot and on the threaded end if I can get to it; let it sit for a few minutes. Then I take a wooden toothpick and clean out all the grunge in the screw slot.
If you don’t know the exact width of the slot, use a set of feeler gauges or pin gauges to measure the slot, that will give you the exact slot width. Think my set of feeler gauges range from .001 - .035, and my smallest pin gauge set goes from .010-.060
Head dia can be measured with calipers.
Something to keep in mind is that on many thin head screws with a tapered backside the screw slot may be cut deep enough that it was cut thru the beveled bottom of the head. Meaning that the head dia on top may be .200, but since the back of the screw has an 82 deg taper, the true dia at the bottom of the slot may only be .180 Using as .200 screwdriver on those screw will result the screwdriver not going all the way to the bottom of the slot increasing chances of slippage and rounding out a screw slot, and making a burr on the female recess that the screw fits in.
V/R
Mike
My current iteration of the brace is a 1/4" drive speed wrench w/ a socket to hold the screw driver bit. Pretty damn handy.
Dr.WtS