Strange to say or perhaps to hear, I'd say that's just about the way every fitter does it. May not involve the empirical approach of adding quarters until you get a certain degree of down pitch which doesn't bust your chops; may involve just whacking the stock off at 5 to 7 degrees less than a right angle with rib because "most people are accomodated by 5 to 7 degrees down pitch". Raise the back sight (on a shotgun the eye)=raise the point of impact. Nothing new there to a rifleman or pistoleer other than the back sight is resting on bunion relief on the comb rather than on the frame or barrel. Quarters and moleskin are field expedients to "try" the results of whacking and bending stocks before doing so just as a trygun is a somewhat fancier "simulator" but still a simulator. G I Joe doesn't say whether he shoots every day with a stack of quarters as a shim or a couple layers of moleskin as a sight elevator. Bet he doesn't.
jack
The reason I'm enquiring is that I need to shorten the stocks on two of my guns. A Laurona sxs, and an M12 (both 16ga. of course). I heard about cutting the stock 90 deg. to the rib, but if a 5 to 7 degree pitch is typical, or will get me close, then it should save me some rework.
I will check at the range for mussel 'bounce', or a sore cheek first.
And no, I can't afford a professional gun fitting and smith work : )
I will accept free opinions though!
Thanks in advance, Don,
The quote is from "Colonel" Glenn Baker of Woodcock Hill (Thom. Bland "owner" and distributor in U.S). and the words were spoken to me. The 90 degree included angle to the rib would give you the neutral or zero pitch that G. I. Joe mentions. 83 to 85 degrees included angle, with the butt in full contact to floor and the breech against the wall means you'll see some daylight (2 or 3 inches) between muzzle ends and wall. You see it's all about house carpentry and horse shoeing--or once was.
I agree that you should see how the pitch thing works out for you with the long stocks by adding quarters or tapered shims or whatever before you cut. May reduce cheek slap and muzzle flip to a certain degree but really you're only trying to achieve full contact with the side of the pectoral muscle in the shoulder pocket so the butt and comb remains in the same relationship to your cheek and eye (rear sight) in case you might want to fire a second shot after the first. I am not a gunfitter and I don't play one of TV (or here on the internet) but you did ask so that's my .02.
jack
I also adhere to the 83 degree pitch.However,the pitch controls how much the shotgun will or will not slip from your shoulder along with the felt recoil. Todays recoil pads nullify a lot of that.You find find the pitch on the old Model 94 Winchesters are a lot different than what you see on a shotgun
A side from a zero degree pitch, placing a shotgun against a wall is about as useless in determing pitch.Length of barrel and LOP will affect how much it stands out agaisnt the wall.It is about effcetive as the old wives tale of placing the butt of you gun in the crook of your elbow and see where your trgger finger is. When in fact, your eye needs to be about 1.5" in back of your thumb. There is no correllation between that and the length of your forearm.
Also, when patterning a shotgun,a person needs to shoot it as he does when hunting or shooting clays. Many of us do not consistently get a good cheek weld and a shotgun needs to be mounted, swung and pointed. As a professional ,this guy has it down pat, but most if they were to do as he does will find thier pattern is not were they think it is.
I think, O/U shoot differently than SXS, as the SXS will typically do a little dip and have a person shoot low.
I have a 1936 Ithaca that is giving me fits. Even after raising the drop at the heel 1/4 " ,it still shoots 4" low.
As stated you move the butt of your shotgun in the direction you want the pattern to go.Just like adjusting iron sights on a rifle.Same holds true with cast off and cast on to get the pattern shooting more center of left and right hand shooters,which no one seems to worry about.
The obvious case of major "up" pitch departing from the modern norm is the Winchester '73. The eponymous film with Jimmy Stewart shows this clearly.
jack
Yep,those old levers were stocked so that they were meant to be kept on the shoulder while stoking more rounds in the chamber
To pattern, I typically pace off 25 yards. (where I usually shoot my birds at) use the same ammo, (kent upland) and shoot one steady mounted for poa, and on a separate pattern sheet, five quick shouldering shots.
So far my M12 puts the shot right on the mark. A few rounds of skeet help me tweak the comb height a bit. When I’m hitting above 20/25, I say it’s good.
But I am new to this game also.
Don.
Funny how he can stand the "butt",squarely on the floor, considering the "banana" pad (rocker) on the gun. I make my buttcut 90° from the comb. What the distance the muzzel is from the wall is not a concern of mine. This gives me the best contact between the pad and my shoulder. The other nonsense frequently attributed to pitch is BS, IMO&ME.
The reason I shoot at 16 yds is that supoosedly when you shift the butt 1/16" for evey 1" you want the center of the pattern to move. It varies with everyone,but gets you darn close. Theni check at further distances
I noticed the rocker in the pad. Doesn't set flat on the floor for the old Look how some of them guns stick out farther than others game. Is there support for the idea that this may be the pad which gives the fullest contact with the shoulder pocket? Could it be that it mirrors human shoulder anatomy better than older and more conventional shapes? Many old stocks and buttplates on shotguns have the slight concave curvature of a crutch top (an attenuated tribute to 1873 Winchesters, Scheutzen rifles, and a lot of ancient stuff with nasty looking brass and steel "shoulder hooks"). Lots of pads are flat toe to heel but deeply radiused in the transverse (Old English Pachmyr), lots of plates and pads have had tranverse tread, presumably put there to encourage the butt sticking where it's placed. If there's a theory about the use and benefits of the rocker pad, please someone come forward and enlighten us.
jack
Rifles with "shoulder hooks" had them for a purpose. I learned this as an offhand m/l rifle competitor many years ago. They are referred to as crescent buttplates, and are intended to be placed on the upper arm, just outside the shoulder joint, not in the shoulder pocket. This requires a little different stance than most shotgun shooters use, with the side of the body more toward the target. The "hooks" keep the hard brass, or steel, buttplate from sliding around on the shoulder. The most exaggerated of all are found on Scheutzen rifles, the ultimate offhand competitive rifle of the 20th century. They are quite comfortable, and effective, when used properly. I had one longrifle built in the Appalachian Po-Boy style that didn't have a buttplate, only a slight curvature to the wood butt. I glued a strip of coarse emery cloth to the butt and it effectively kept the butt in place on my shoulder while aiming.
Stan
If there's a theory about the use and benefits of the rocker pad, please someone come forward and enlighten us.
My theory is that some marketing genius was analyzing sales trends on barrel porting, 6" extended choke tubes, glow worm sights and......
....the rocker pad was born.
[If there's a theory about the use and benefits of the rocker pad, please someone come forward and enlighten us.]
I know several champion lady trapshooters, as well as very accomplished male trapshooters with a somewhat barrel-chested physique, who would shoot with nothing BUT a rocker pad. The shape keeps the toe of the pad from "digging in", according to them.
Craig Libhart
Craigs sentiments reflect my experience with Rocker pads. The fuller the chest (barrel chested on men, ladies in general) seem to do better with contours of the rocker pad fitting the coutours of their chest.
Guess I didn't add much,
Hack
I'm way out in left field here I guess,unless there is a rocker pad for chest,but how in the heck does a recoil pad( rocker pad and if the that is what we are talking about) conform to the chest when the shot gun is mounted on the shoulder.I am barrel chested myself and never heard of that one, but then again,I am not a trap /skeet shooter
I would think that certain anatomical configurations would benefit from a rocker pad in terms of recoil distribution and maintaining gun position.
As to the other questions, it never fails to amaze me that the authoritative resources like Michael Yardley are so studiously ignored. And Bruce Buck too for that matter. Get the real facts from the horse's mouth rather than the local guess from the other end.
Dr.WtS