I just need to blow off some steam here! I just finished terminating a possible deal with another member of this forum on 100 year old SxS shotgun. However, they refuse to handle the transaction apart from it being an FFL dealer to FFL dealer shipment.
I am a C&R holder and they refuse to ship it to me! And thier FFL refuses to do so as well!
This is why I got my C&R. To avoid having to pay transfer fees on guns that are of my personal interest (old SxS's).

He stated that if he can't do it for free than neither should I. Well... yes I do, because I aquired my license through ATF and it gives me the right to receive them into my collection without having to go through a dealer.

This whole situation is like telling someone that they cannot drive on the road even though they passed the road test and got the license.

I am sure that many of the other members have dealt with similar issues before too.

You see this from time to time on Gunbroker offerings. I suspect half the time it is a combination of ignorance and an over abundance of caution and the other half it's an ffl feeling that a brother ffl is getting screwed out of a fee. The really, really stupid one is the ffl who doesn't want to accept delivery from a non-ffl. Irritating but they can do it any way they choose and I choose not to deal with them.

Plenty of FFL's either don't know the rules, or just make them up as they go.

You've got that right! I have found that some of them(FFL holders) will tell a potential seller anything in order to avoid losing a fee even though they are not needed in the deal. I lost out on a couple of C&R eligible guns last year because the seller refused to ship them to me with my C&R license even though it was perfectly legal because a dealer told him otherwise. This dealer wanted $100 per gun to ship them to me and at that point I told him to stuff it.
Jim

Cabelas in Mitchell told me they wouldn't give me a gun with my C&R one year. No sweat. They are the ones missing out on business. If they are so ignorant as to not know or not recognize the law that authorizes C&R sales, they should loose the business of a C&R licencee. I won't deal with anyone that doesn't recognize my C&R even though I could use a local FFL.

It's just a hobby to me, but it's a livelyhood to them.

Lots of 01 FFL's have no clue,and they forget that a C&R is indeed a FFL as well (03) !!

Name that member that gave ya the run around B Dudley,if its 100 years old its an antique !

I just can't believe that anyone who posts here or even just reads this board would have any problem at all with a federal CC&R licensee. If that is truly his problem, his education is lacking and he needs to tend to it ASAP.

Ask before you make an offer. Pay attention to where the seller resides. It is my understanding the Peoples Republic of New Jersey does not recognize the C&R.

"Name that member that gave ya the run around B Dudley,if its 100 years old its an antique !"

I believe the law states for an antique gun to be free of any licensing it has to be before 1899, therefore a 100 year old gun is still under license from FFL. To be eligible for a C&R the gun has to be 50 years.

1898.

Plus 1. Out the guy. He's an idiot.

May be its because a C & R FFl is supposed to be a non business personal collection thing , and you are advertisinmg here as BMD Gunstocks. That sounds like a business that needs a 01 dealer type of FFl.

I didn't want to do this right off the bat, but as I suspected there are many members that are with me on this.

The user is (removed). A fairly new member as well.

I was working out a deal on a trade with him for an old SxS. Not technically an Antique, but 110% a C&R gun.

So if anyone sees anything for sale by this member, keep in mind that he will not honor your C&R and neither will his FFL.

I even quoted the ATF language regarding the subject and recomended that it would be a good udea that he get one too. But it fell on deaf ears.

You do hear it quite often. I never could see why anyone, especially another 01FFL would refuse to sell to an 03FFL,,but they do. I guess that 'fee' issue is paramount is some peoples minds.

Pre- 1899 for Federal Antique Status,,but some like NJ don't recognize it. NY doesn't recognize it for cartridge handguns in most all instances.

B. Dudley,,Do you not have an 01FFL for the Gun Stock Business?,, or do you not take the actual firearms in at all for stock work to be done.

Guns made IN 1898 or before are antiques.

If I remember right, that guy might have had some "issues" with another seller here as well. Maybe a different guy but I don't think so.

This discussion brings to mind a question I have had regarding 'antiques' and C&R eligible firearms. If a gun is pre-1898 according to a serial number list someone has published, but was in production later than 1898, say a Lefever for example (made till 1916), are we safe in calling it an 'antique' and direct shipping it? Same question applies to a C&R gun which dates back 50years according to a list in someone's book, but which might still be in production, an Ithaca 37 for example...Geo

An "antique firearm" and a C&R eligible firearm are two different things. An antique firearm (manufactured before 1898) can be shipped to anyone. The BATF&E has a published list of all C&R eligible firearms which run right up to at least the middle of the 20th century in manufacture date but must comply in design to certain BATF&E established criteria.

I don't think the BATF watches it that close, George. I bought a I. Hollis , some years ago, from McDonald's Gunshop in Australia. They said it would clear as a pre-1898 gun, it was a damascus double, and shipped it USPS. i didn't question them. Everything went A-O.K.

No problema.

Stan

George, It's the age of the individual gun, not the model line. I suppose there are Winchester 94s that are antique, C&R, and modern.

You all are of course correct,just because its 100 years old does not qualify it for antique,I should have added "could be" before antique.1898 or before is antique,non gun.

To member Dudley's issue with reddhott2 (BTW nice to see someone name names when they have been wrongly treated).

Why does the seller,reddhott,need a FFL to ship the buyer a gun when the buyer has a FFL that all that required !
No need for the "my FFL will not accept your C&R (FFL)" to even be a factor !

We are only hearing here one side of the story and it would be nice if mr. redhott would post with his version. I question still why someone advertissing here as BMD gunstocks doesn't have a 01 FFl as is required to do stock work when the gun receiver is needed, like with 99 % of old side x side stockwork? Also why mr. bmd hasn't replied to that question ? If he had a 01 FFl this post might not be here so we can cheww on it. -CB

The problem here is that the fellow obviously does not know anything about what is legal and what is not. He is running a gun business without an FFL, but doesn't realize that he can ship guns without the use of an FFL. I wonder if he pays this "my FFL" guy every time he uses him to ship a gun? Maybe he used "my FFL" guy to comply with the requirements of his stock business. IN A LATER POST, I GET THE IDEA THAT THE POSTER IS THE STOCK GUY, NOT THE "OTHER GUY" I SEEM TO HAVE BEEN MISTAKEN. SORRY.

You can be in the gunstock business,or any other business and still have a C&R FFL,there is no connection between the two.
If you "deal" in guns for a profit,then you need a 01.If an owner of a gun stock company want to collect,he can have a C&R just like the rest of us !

not if he is doing work on other folks guns... then you need an 01 license.

Not sure what he does with his gunstocks has anything to do with the thread/transaction.This purchase was for his personal interest,hence the C&R.


B Dudley:
"This is why I got my C&R. To avoid having to pay transfer fees on guns that are of my personal interest (old SxS's)."

I am a C&R holder and I am in the process of aquiring the 01 FFL so that I have all bases covered in regards to my new business. Gun stock work is something I have done for myself in my spare time. I have just this year begun to try and make it a small business venture for myself. And with that means a lot of Red tape to go through, especially in NY.
I now have to go through my town to get approved with zoning for a home business. And then the FFL will fall into place once that is taken care of.
I do not deal in guns at all, at least not until I get an 01 FFL and even then the activity would be minimal. And I do not ever have the intention of getting tied up with handguns.
I hope that I have answered any questions that anyone may have had about my work and my business.

And yes, this fowled transaction that is of subject was a personal gun of mine that I was offering as a trade for another for my collection.

Not really my business at all, but you can not be engaged in any form of business prior to being granted your 01 license. One of the questions you will be asked during your on site inspection is "are you currently engaged in any firearms related business?" If you want the 01 license, the answer to that question is no. Good luck. I know what you are going through regarding the regulations in your area....I grew up a few miles to the South on Conesus Lake and moved out West long ago. Every time I return I am amazed at the nanny state mentality.

The FFL license holder has the right to add requirements beyond those set forth by ATF. The practice is becoming more common and is no doubt caused by some bad experience or local regulation. They have a business to protect that is worth more than one transaction. As suggested above, best to clarify in advance when possible.

One of the reasons many FFLs will not accept a C&R is due to the fact that C&R's cannot be verified through the FFLez site. My FFL holder uses that everytime before they will ship a gun to another FFL.

First a C&R FFL,or any FFL can be verified if necessary by a simple call to the licensing center in Atlanta.I have done it when sent a pawn FFL that was used as a transfer agent for my buyer,takes less then 5 mins.

Next there is no requirement for a FFL to be involved on the sender end,just the receivers.

And yes the FFL can put whatever requirement he wants-"all C&R's must sent in purple envelopes wrapped around a 10 oz silver bar",but it should be done BEFORE any transaction is completed.

Its the additional made up rules after the deal has been made that are the issue.

When they are selling me a gun I've never had a dealer with an FFL refuse to sell me a qualifying firearm on my CC&R. Maybe doubles just aren't that easy to sell and they don't want to lose the money they will generate on my transaction.

Transfers may be a different story.

Quote:
"And yes the FFL can put whatever requirement he wants-"all C&R's must sent in purple envelopes wrapped around a 10 oz silver bar",but it should be done BEFORE any transaction is completed"

We call this GREED in my location. I've noticed this phenomenon much more frequently since "Slick Willie" forced the BATF to really clamp down on the type 1 FFL holders causing a huge reduction in numbers.
Jim

Probably really freek him out if you'd have sent him an 02FFL..

An earlier poster said it best when he stated that an FFL can add all the extra precautions that he wants. Like it or not, it is up to the FFL to protect his license and business.

My favorite dealer just changed policy where they no longer accept incoming firearms from a non-FFL. I think some of this is cautionary, I think some of it has to do with the Gunbroker, Guns International, etc. sales that they may feel is cutting in on their own business. The time spent transferring that firearm that you bought from someone else takes time away from their own business. After all, it is a business.

As far as the C&R license, it is not an FFL. A C&R license allows you to collect for your own use, not to act as a go between or dealer.

In general, a firearm is considered a C&R if it is 50 years or older. It does not have to be on the published list. If it was originally manufactured in or before March of 1961, it is a C&R based on it's age. And yes, ATF does stay on top of what is and is not.

Antique applies to originally manufactured in or before 1898.

If you fix guns for profit, refinish a stock or re-blue a gun for profit, mount a scope for profit, etc., You have to have an FFL.

I would assume that a person could wish to receive only guns from FFLs in case the gun is determined to be stolen. He would then have someone to take responsibility.

EightBore when my FFL receives a gun from a non FFL they require the non-FFL to email a copy of his driver's license. They say they do that to give ME recourse in case the gun is stolen.

Best,

Mike

What's wrong with just buying it out of the trunk of someone's car? No FFL, No C&R, No nothin!!!

uhh a C&R is not an FFL??? News to me mine says it is.Its a 03 FFL for collecting and disposing of guns that are either on the list or over 50 yrs old.

These few dealers that want to put extra hoops to jump through to receive a gun for transfer would be more then happy to steal that double from your widow with no info from her at all !

Oh, Boy! See the penalties section of the 1968 Gun Control Act. Don't believe the rumor that the ATF boys don't care as long as its just an old doublegun. 'Low hanging fruit' and a quick plea deal with an embarrassed and anguished 'solid citizen' make the agent look better at his next annual review!

Actually, in Georgia at least, there's nothing wrong with doing just what you described as long as you and the guy with the gun in his trunk are both State residents. Its called the 'gun show loophole'...Geo

Dave is right. A C&R License is an 03 FFL
Here is what mine says in opening:
Jim

Dear Licensee:
Enclosed you will find your Federal Firearms License.----------

Yes, it is a Class 03 FFL.

What I meant and the point being is it does not allow you to engage in the buying and selling of firearms as a business.

[quote=Dave K]First a C&R FFL,or any FFL can be verified if necessary by a simple call to the licensing center in Atlanta.----
quote]
https://www.atfonline.gov/fflezcheck/
Why make a phone call when you can check it on line ?

Only the 01's are available on line,not the 03's.

That was in response the post by

Pre13-LC COLL:
"One of the reasons many FFLs will not accept a C&R is due to the fact that C&R's cannot be verified through the FFLez site. My FFL holder uses that everytime before they will ship a gun to another FFL."

If thats his reason for not accepting a C&R (and his money)then his FFL is just lazy or ignorant or both !
What did he do before the 01's where online?

My FFL will accept a C&R. They do however check every FFL through the FFLez site though. They shipped a gun to a FFL holder who had faxed them a copy, which is perfectly legal. However, the receiving FFL holder had been suspended pending an investigation. From that point on my FFL decided to verify every one of them. 30 seconds online beats the hell out of a month worth of hassle with BATFE.

My FFL is the one that told me he knows several other FFL holders that will not do C&Rs because they can't check them online. Especially on the weekends at gun shows when the Atlanta office is closed.

"My FFL is the one that told me he knows several other FFL holders that will not do C&Rs because they can't check them online."


????? makes NO sense-they will not pick up a phone-to call ATF if they want a FFL check,but they will then have to call for a NICS check to run it as a 4473 transfer???

A dealer,any business, can do whatever he wants,but so can his customers !Lots of sellers happy to follow the rules and take a 03 FFL no need to deal with the ones that don't-they won't be around long anyway.

Dave,

I think the main reason was that they could not verify them on the weekends when they were at gunshows and the Atlanta office is obviously closed.

I'm not defending their poor business practices or ignorance of the BATFE Regulations. It's their business to lose. Just passing on what was explained to me.

https://www.atfonline.gov/fflezcheck/
Why make a phone call when you can check it on line ?

[/quote]
If you click on that link this is taken directly from it:
FFL eZ Check does not validate Type 03 (Collectors of Curios and Relics) and Type 06 (Manufacturer of Ammunition) licenses. All attempts to check the validity of Type 03 and Type 06 licenses will result in an error message, even though the licenses may be valid. An FFL should not use this error message as reason to deny dealing with a Type 03 licensee.

Guess Mr. Dudley can go ahead with the deal now. The fellow says he will deal with CC&R FFL holders now.

"I'm not defending their poor business practices or ignorance of the BATFE Regulations. It's their business to lose. Just passing on what was explained to me."

I know that,didn't mean to sound like I was criticizing you Pre 13-if so I apologize.The 01 dealer who feels they are not valid as you can find them on line, is the one I was referring to.

"Guess Mr. Dudley can go ahead with the deal now. The fellow says he will deal with CC&R FFL holders now."

One down,goodness knows how many more to go !

No thank you. That deal is dead.
Mr. Blair, I saw that reply. It is not that HE will not sell or trade to a C&R. It is that he does not want to package up and ship himself, so he has his 01FFL do it for him. And it is His FFL that will not send to an 03FFL C&R.

Not to take this on a tangent, but I'll throw this in since someone brought up gunstocking. Just to confirm as others have written, that gents doing stocking work where the frame of the gun is involved, must have a commercial type FFL for a for-profit operation. That assumes he has a place of business, insurance, etc. Just lately I've heard from a reliable source that the BATF, here in the northeast at least, is asking custom stockers to change over at renewal time, from a Type 01 to a Type 07 FFL. Type 07 is a "Manufacturer of firearms other than NFA weapons".

Just reporting what is happening..... Silvers

Perfectly legal in PA too, Geo!!!

Legal in NH as well (along with lots of other stuff-like auto knives and guns-with tax stamp of course!)

Nope, he is now back peddling and will not agree that he is !

Silvers:

I have heard this too, and it makes no sense. I can understand someone who takes an unbuilt frame or receiver and builds a complete rifle or shotgun as being a manufacturer. I can also understand calling a guy who builds a M1911 type pistol from the ground up a manufacturer.

How can you call a stockmaker or custom stocker a manufacturer?

To me, it just seems like another way to get people to decide it is not worth the hassle. Therefore, reducing the number of FFLs.

The Firearms Technology Branch lost alot of common sense when Ed Owen retired.....

I went through the literature what separates a Gunsmith or dealer FFL (01) from a manufacturer FFL. According to that, the typical stock maker or gunsmith would not be considered a manufacturer. The only case that seems to fall under this would be if someone is building or assembling custom guns on a regualr basis as part of their business.
The example that ATF gave, was if a gunsmith is regularly buying surplus military guns and then sporterizing and reselling them as part of his normal operations, then he would be a manufacturer.
The occational custom buld or conversion does not qualify you as a manufacturer. It has to be a routine operation.
Or if you are operating as a subcontracter that is consistently doing one operation on a part to go into another part, then you would be considered a manufacturer.

My local FFL dealer, whom I know well, and hunt with regularly, is VERY CAUTIOUS. He will not ship to a C&R licensee. He doesn't want to be at all involved in any possible federal or local violations.

While he understands the C&R license, he thinks the small amount of revenue involved is not worth it.

He is a very nice fellow, but VERY CAUTIOUS. It is his business, and his FFL license. So I too abide by his preferences when selling a firearm.

Similarly, he will not ship any gun to California. He says the chance of doing "something wrong" and losing his FFL license, and business, is not worth trying to comply with California regulations.

jerry

There is careful and then there is ignorance.

If he can't understand the rules for shipping to a 03 FFL,but is happy to ship to an 01 I would say "VERY LAZY"or "VERY STUPID" is a better description !



"So I too abide by his preferences when selling a firearm"

Why ?You don't need him to ship your gun.

I have making my own decisions for many years and happy I don't have to let others make them for me.

While I concur with the sentiment stated above I still think the heart of the issue is MONEY and CONTROL. Guess what? No Type 3 FFLs? Then everyone HAS to ship thru a Type 1 any firearm that isn't pre 1899.
From a Type 1 holders view there are NO advantages to Type 3 licenses to them.
Oh and BTW: Can anyone on this forum cite a specific instance where someone holding a Type 1 license was charge with anything by the BATF when involved in shipping a suitable firearm to a Type 3 licensee?
Is anyone on this board with a Type 3 license aware of an instance where the holder of this license was charged with any kind of illegal behavior involving sending or receiving suitable firearms?
Jim

In that case, his preferences go beyond "cautious" and straight to "stupid." If he can't figure out the rather simple requirement to get a DOJ number before shipping a long gun to CA, then he shouldn't be in this business. His privilege, though. As some comedian once said, "you can't fix stupid."

That my friend is a great question !

I would love to know how jerrys dealer thinks eliminating 03 FFL's (and Kalif) is only a "small percentage" of his business"As he is does not take them how would he know ?

REPLY TO...

"I would love to know how jerrys dealer thinks eliminating 03 FFL's (and Kalif) is only a "small percentage" of his business"As he is does not take them how would he know ?"[/quote]

My dealer mostly sells new guns to locals, and is not very active in the used gun marketplace. For a few of his regular customers he will accept or ship a gun bought or sold on one of the on-line auctions. Big deal, he makes $15 or $25. California sales would be an infinitely small portion of his revenue, as would C&R transactions.

Another local gun dealer, even larger in size, will accept incoming "auction-gun-transactions", but will not ship any guns outbound, for anyone.

In both instances, these dealers have a satisfactory local clientle, and aren't willing to "take the risk" (perceived, if not actual) of shipping to a C&R or California dealer.

Perhaps if my livelihood, and my family's well-being, was solely derived from a gunshop, I might feel the same way, VERY CAUTIOUS! Its quite easy for someone on this board to postulate on how someone else should run their business, and what level of risks they should take. I'm a banker, and we don't cash checks for non-customers.

jerry6stl

It’s HIS business, he can do what ever he wants. He can tell a local client to get the hell out of his store if he wants too.
And if he doesn't want to make this type of sell and lose all that revenue, (where's that smirk icon) well it’s his business ain't it?

Probably a good decision, because he's not in the shipping business. If a customer wants packing and shipping, he can go to a business that actually provides that service. No need to involve an FFL for packing and shipping. Kind of like not going to your banker for an oil change on your truck.

"I might feel the same way, VERY CAUTIOUS! Its quite easy for someone on this board to postulate on how someone else should run their business, and what level of risks they should take. I'm a banker, and we don't cash checks for non-customers."

First I do have a laugh at a banker-the same "profession" who brought us NINJA (No Income,No Job,Assets) loans talking about proper "risk".Kinda like a hooker worried about "promiscuity".
But I will not paint you with the same brush.

Next,could you or this "dealer" tell us what they feel is this extra risk in selling to a 03 FFL,as opposed to a 01 ?

I bet both of the dealers would trip over themselves fighting to buy any of our widows guns for 10% of their value and not care how they where shipped to or from their shop !

Also,just so your aware,there is no need to have a FFL involved when shipping a gun-only the receiver needs one.
I know your dealer friend has NO CLUE about the gun laws/"risk" but it might be helpful if you knew what they where and had on up on him !

DAVE K, & Others...

I've sold many "personal shotguns" on gunbroker.com. My inerent weakness is that I'm a "GUNWHORE" at heart. After I own amd use a fine gun for some period of time, I tire of it and seek something new and different. So I both buy and sell on gunbroker, solely for my own use.

Many/most gun stores WILL NOT ACCEPT a direct shipment of a shotgun from an individual. They insist upon the shipper being an 01 FFL licensee. I clearly understand that the GCA-1968 does not require that to be the case; but nevertheless many FFL dealers insist upon shipment from/via another FFL licensee.

My opinion is that they deem this to be a safer route, and think that the other FFL dealer is likely to be following all state or local limitations.

Expediency warrants my cooperating with these dealer requests. Erego, I always use an 01 FFL licensee on both ends. Its a lot easier than trying to convince a gun store owner in a distant state, over the phone, that he should accept a direct shipment.

I have no personal axe to grind on this issue. I hope that at some future point in time, more 01 FFL dealers will become comfortable shipping to C&R licensees, and will accept shipments from law-abiding individuals. In the meantime, I'll continue using 01 dealers. I just try to "go with the flow...." My days of trying to change the world, and jousting at windmills, passed many years ago.

jerry6stl

jerry,

I along with most in here are the same,all gunwhores,love to buy them and sometimes when the safes overflow sell them. I am a proud member of the same club as you are !

Now to this most dealers won't accept shipment from and individual BS.There may well be some,but each and every one will buy a gun for less then half of whats its worth from widows and divorces who don't know any better and not ask for a FFL to accept it ! They are just WHORES !
The buyer(s) are the one(s) who should be talking on the phone and finding a "normal" 01 FFL not you,thats how I do it.
G/B,A/A and G/I have long lists for every state full of 01 FFL's that are more then happy to accept guns for transfer without a 01 sending it.

I know its not you,and as long as you know you don't need one-to sell or ship but chose to use one that's all up to you.Just was not sure you knew you didn't require it.

Do understand there is NO extra risk what-so-ever between a 01 and 03 FFL for shipping or sales.The issue with any dealer that claims there is greed !Their not getting what they want-the gun sale, so they make up "VERY CAUTIOUS" and "Risk" with NO basis in fact.The key words are really just "Greedy" or "Ignorant" or both !

It's easy to heckle from the cheap seats and quite another to be playing in the game......

Doncha wish that BATF would post a "FAQ" section which would answer all these questions which are debated endlessly by people who have opinions, or think they know the law?

Fortunately I have never been involved with a seller who would not ship a C&R gun to my C&R address. My local 01FFL "only" charges $30 for a transfer. However, I would have to decide whether a gun that I really wanted was worth $30 more if I ran into one of these ignorant and/or greedy sellers who refused to honor my 03FFL. Why did the BATF create the 03FFL if not for this? Its like the local drivers who won't turn right on red when the intersection is clear, even though they legally can. Even if you have an H1 with an I-beam welded to the front you can't legally push them through the intersection, even though thats what you would like to do. Like Ron White said "you can fix ugly, but you can't fix stupid". Unfortunately, there are a lot of unfixable people out there and gun collectors and dealers are not exempt.
On the other hand in the rare instance where I sell a gun and the buyer demands that I ship it from an 01FFL, he is going to pay the $30 or he doesn't get the gun.

and this from some one who thinks the C&R is not a FFL
GunPlumber:
"As far as the C&R license, it is not an FFL. A C&R license allows you to collect for your own use, not to act as a go between or dealer."

BTW Gun Plumber,many in the "cheap seats" have more invested in guns and knowledge then those in the 01 seats !

tudrgs ;
"Doncha wish that BATF would post a "FAQ" section which would answer all these questions which are debated endlessly by people who have opinions, or think they know the law?'

They do ! here ya go;
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html

http://www.atf.gov/contact/faq/

Dr Bob;
"However,I would have to decide whether a gun that I really wanted was worth $30 more if I ran into one of these ignorant and/or greedy sellers who refused to honor my 03FFL. Why did the BATF create the 03FFL if not for this? Its like the local drivers who won't turn right on red when the intersection is clear, even though they legally can. Even if you have an H1 with an I-beam welded to the front you can't legally push them through the intersection, even though thats what you would like to do. Like Ron White said "you can fix ugly, but you can't fix stupid". Unfortunately, there are a lot of unfixable people out there and gun collectors and dealers are not exempt."

Agree 100% and,after filling out the 4473,then you still have to put in in your bound book ! Thats why when I run into ignorant/greedy dealers who will not take my FFL I pass on the deal !

And I stand by what I said. A C&R license does not give you the ability to act as a dealer in firearms. It simply allows you to assemble a collection for personal use.

What part of running a business as a licensee sees fit do you not get?

Let me see if I understand all this. You buy a C&R eligible gun from someone. The seller is "Mr Cautious" and decides that even though you show them it's perfectly legal to ship the gun to you and send them a copy of your C&R license for shipment.
He takes the gun to his local 01 FFL along with a copy of your C&R. The 01 FFL then refuses to ship the gun to anyone other than another 01 FFL even though he'd knows it's perfectly legal to do so.
Let's see what this 01FFLs exact liability is inre. to his 01 License? He has to ship the gun to the named individual and address on the license. That is the requirement for C&R shipment and in doing so he has complied with the BATF regulations. What exactly could he do here to put himself or his license at risk by following these regulations to a T?
Any firearm I have shipped goes out with tracking and a "signature required" at the other end so I can verify it was delivered should ther ever be an issue(never happened to me).
Again "Just where does this 01FFLs liability kick in in the above tansaction?"
I am right back to my initial point it's all about Money and control on the part of some 01 FFL holders.
Jim

I would suggest a test case. One of us who have a C&R 03FFL is refused shipment of an eligible gun by an 01FFL.
File a formal complaint with the BATF.
Perhaps, the 01FFL holder will lose their license because they are too stupid to have one.
As I look at this it is funny. At the Honolulu Airport bars the bartender is required to "card" everybody. Even me with gray hair and a beard. No big deal, I just laugh at being "carded".
However, if they decided that they would't serve anybody younger than 60, and I don't meet that requirement quite yet, although I am quite over the legal age of 21 to purchase alcohol, can they do this?
Well, I suppose that they might get away with it, although it would be stupid from a business standpoint. I wonder what would happen if I sued on an age discrimentation basis if that were to happen?
I don't know how the BATF runs, but in most circumstances, failure to know the law, and comply with it, including the rights of an 03FFL holder, would result in penalties to those denying those those rights to those holding that license.

I was just thinking about my experience with 01 FFL holders when buying C&R firearms. Every single one of them has been exemplary. Not one has ever refused or even hinted at a question about my CC&R FFL. Perfect transactions all.

I was also thinking that every one of my C&R purchases has been above the $1500 mark, most of them much more than that. I don't think there are very many stupid people that are successful businessmen and have 01 FFL's.

1) You said it was not a FFL ! It is,its 03 FFL !
BTW it allows you to do more then just "assemble a collection" go read it.

"http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html#license-privileges

"Q: What does “engaged in the business” mean?

The term “engaged in the business,” as applicable to a firearms dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms."

2) You can run a business any way you like but telling me its more "risk" or your being "CAUTIOUS" and not take a 03 FFL is BS !Your either ignorant or greedy or both as there is no additional risk involved !
Now if they said no 03 FFL's as I am "to greedy" "to lazy" or "to stupid" to accept them,that's fine with me.

There are lots of 01 FFL who don't do transfers for anyone,thats fine too.Many of the custom gun builders and gunsmiths don't accept transfers unless its for their regular customers,again fine and it makes sense.They have a talent that rewards them better then running a day to day gunshop,wasting time with transfers instead doing the more lucrative work they are skilled at is understandable.
Not the same as a 01 dealer who claims 03's are "more risky" so he will not deal with them.

I think this thread pretty much proves that opinion may not be correct.

Dave K - Thanks for the "FAQ" reference. Should be required reading for anyone who posts on this subject

There is just no reasoning with someone afflicted with Napoleon syndrome.

To each his own. In the end, it really doesn't matter how you interpret the law anyway. If you are not happy with the service provided by an 01 FFL, you certainly have the right to find another.

Just as they certainly have the right to refuse service to you.

Proof once again,when faced with overwhelming FACTS that prove your position is wrong,resort to cowardly name calling and more ignorant and untenable positions.

The "interpretation" is directly from the BATF website and rules both higlighted and linked in my post.
Show me where you get your facts that says a C&R is not a FFL or that all its good for is "simply allows you to assemble a collection for personal use" ?

Thank you ! Agree 100%

It might not come through in my posts but I am trying to point out there are facts right from the BATF available that anyone with common sense (apparently not that "common") that will avoid many of the made up and flat out wrong posts made on threads like this.

And again, I have no problem or care what any 01 FFL wants or does not want to accept,just don't add unsubstantiated rumors ("to risky") and "not a FFL" to hide ignorance,lazy or greedy.

Here is a list of dealers that are ready to do transfers;

http://www.gunbroker.com/FFL/DealerNetwork.aspx

and another;

http://www.gunsinternational.com/ffl-dealers.cfm

"ignorance,lazy or greedy." Sure looks like name calling to me.

Even though I do transfers, I'm sure you would not approve of how I run things. I am one of those nutters that likes a photocopy of a DL to go with my books. Crazy I know, but at my last ATF audit the agent did mention that they liked the idea and it made things simple and easy. I also agree with Gunplummer that a C&R does not allow you to run a for profit business. Twist it as you like.......

Dave K:

I simply made an observation, and expressed my opinion. The last I checked, I still have that right.

Reviewing your posts and endless rants against licensees, it is you who have described them as "stupid", "ignorant", "lazy" and "greedy." Yet, you call me a coward for making the observation that you appear to be one-sided and have a bullying manner of "see things my way or you are an idiot."

There are plenty of folks on this board who know my background. I can tell you that I have seen many people get themselves in trouble based on their own interpretation of firearms law. I wish you the best and hope you find happiness with a dealer who will accomodate you.

Just sayin'........when there is significant money involved, many of them lose their stupid streak at record speed.

GunPlumber, I called your post ("There is just no reasoning with someone afflicted with Napoleon syndrome") cowardly and stand by it !

Your the one with a "interpretation" of firearms laws and have as of yet not backed up any of the wrong "interpretations" you made that I challenged .
Note-NO "interpretations" on my part at all.I have posted links directly from the BATF site (and in the books-disk they send to license's,which I doubt you have even taken the time to read !

Have no idea of your back round,but so far your view of a discussion (well there where some "rants"-"View from the cheap seats" comes to mind ) of facts vs posts like " a C&R is not a FFL" does nothing to impress me.

If you have something you can back up in facts fine,why not post it?So far all I see is name cowardly name calling,and your "view" of what the rules are.
All your doing now is continuing to prove my point about lazy,ignorant and or greedy !

If you read my earlier post, I said that a C&R is not an FFL. If you read further, I clarified that statement to mean that a C&R license does not allow you to deal in firearms as a business. I even called it what it is, an 03 FFL.

Straight from the ATF website:

Q: Does a license as a collector of curio or relic firearms authorize the collector to engage in the business of dealing in curios or relics?
No. A dealer’s license must be obtained to engage in the business of dealing in any firearms, including curios or relics.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a) and 923(a), 27 CFR 478.41]

If I remember right, in an earlier post you claimed that an antique firearm is one which is 100 years old. This is factually incorrect under the Gun Conrol Act of 1968 (GCA).

You later corrected yourself with your own clarification.

But I guess you are the only one who can do that, right?

Like I said, best of luck in all of your future endeavors. Happy collecting. I am done conversing with you.

Plumber,
You are correct,I forgot a word "could" in be an antique,your statement-03 is not a FFL was incorrect,but I will agree to a "push" I will also say its good you have moved up the learning curve and actually linked to a BATF site,even if its not pertinent to this discussion.

Now can you show me where I said that a 03 FFL was for dealing?
You Can't!


If you address your "interpretations" and stop making up ones that you claim I did it would help your case a lot more then making up what was never posted.

man if there was ever a time i felt like I was having a battle of wits with a "unarmed" man,this is it !

Quote:
"There are plenty of folks on this board who know my background. I can tell you that I have seen many people get themselves in trouble based on their own interpretation of firearms law. "

Well: Those of us on this board who are stupid and ignorent are still waiting for you to cite even ONE specific case where an 01FFL got in to trouble with the BATF for shipping a C&R firearm to an 03FFL.
Jim

so, does this mean that we should never apply high heat to a shotgun receiver in the vain attempt to restore case colors?

What I want to know is did the "unarmed man" get dirty? I ask for a photocopy operater's license when I sell to another C&R and can't quarrel with a 01 doing so. I do think the deal with the FFL receivers not wishing to receive from unlicensed individuals is an indication of fraternal protectionism as again they can certainly ask for positive ID. Informing a LEO who is not the CLEO in your neighborhood that you are applying for an 03 does not, as Jim/Dave have been gracious enuf to point out, delay the processing of your application. It delayed mine because I was informed that I had the wrong office BEFORE I sent in my application. I hesitated to go ahead with the process until I found the address of the Real McCLEO. Go away, Ed.

jack

I've purchased a couple dozen guns using my C&R. I always get it cleared before bidding at an auction, if I do that no problems. A couple of times I have run into someone that won't honor a C&R, he loses my business, plenty of other guns out there. Around here FFL's are asking $50-100 to do a transfer. I'd rather put that money into the price of the gun.

I have also sold to a C&R on a few occasions, I get a copy of the C&R, call the ATF and verify, and always ship to the address on the C&R.

Well if that wasn't 9 pages of a sh-t storm and 30 min. of my life I will never get back!!! I like to ship FFL to FFL I don't care how old the gun is. My guy charges me the actual shipping cost no more going out and $5.00 for the background check coming in. I told mister gunstock man I wanted to go FFL to FFL right from the start. He just thought that his 03 was good enough for me to ship directly to him. My guy for what ever reason does not accept from an 03 it's his playpen he can do what he wants. I think that many people use the 03 ffl to get around the system and sooner or later the ones that are buying and selling on their 03 ffl's will get caught. All mister gunstock man had to do was ship his gun from an 01-ffl and give me an 01-ffl to ship mine to and this deal would have been done. He chose not to and the deal fell thru. What's the big deal I don't get it . He didn't get the gun and neither did I move on. I just purchased a gun from someone else on this site. He said he had an 03 -ffl I ask him if he could ship from an 01 he said fine I paid the difference it was my choice. Everbody has to do what they are comfortable with if your not then don't do it. Mister gunstock man started this rant and it really is a waste of time except I wondered how anyone even knew that the deal went south and how they even knew the deal was with me. At the very least I now know that PM is not what it means to him so I will assume that is how he runs his gunstock company also and I guess private is not really private to him. You know the BATF pays people to read these web sites and report what they read. I know this because I know a person that got a visit for something he wrote on a site like this. So becareful what you write it may come back a bite you.I'm done, this deal is so done you can stick it with a fork, and my dealings with mister gunstock man are finished also. ( you notice I never mentioned his name or handle as it should be)

italiansxs:

Jim, first off I am not the one who called FFL holders stupid and ignorant. I merely defended those who choose to do business as they see fit. And I stand by that. It is their license and business to protect. If they choose not to ship to an 03 C&R holder, right or wrong so be it.

Second, I never said that I knew of any 01 FFL holders that got into trouble shipping to an 03 C&R. So why should I provide an example? Why would they be in trouble anyway?

Yes, I do know of plenty of people who got into trouble based on their own interpretation of firearms law. That's a fact. Sorry if I confused anyone by their misinterpretation of what I said. And yes, there is a big misconception by some that a C&R license is a license to deal for profit. It is not.

And finally, I never accused Dave K of anything other than being rude.

So, my total point being, if you don't like the way a certain FFL runs his show, find another one and be happy. No need to call them "stupid", "ignorant", "lazy" or "greedy." In other words, don't be critical of a man's trade unless you walked a mile in his shoes.

I believe in capitolism and am a Darwinist. The world is changing. More and more things happen through the internet. The FFL that doesn't fully understand the laws he must abide by to do business in this age is subject to the fate of the dinosaurs. I also agree that some of this caution is driven by greed. A lot of these guys had a small but captive audience for years, and I've heard several complain about "losing a sale" to someone from another state. Eventually these guys will learn that the internet can give them a MUCH larger potential customer base. They start selling on-line and some guy in another state makes a few bucks for doing the transfer. Sometimes they're the guy that makes the few bucks as well. Both benefit. Trying to make things stay strictly local is just dumb business and eventually will cause them to fail.
Personally, I won't buy as much as a bore brush or box of cartridges from a shop that won't do transfers at a reasonable price and/or doesn't know the laws governing their own business. If more people would do this, we'd help Darwin along and get it over with.
Jim

First off Al (Redhott2) has claimed he has a C&R,that evidently is a LIE.What else is he lying about?

Next Gunplumber,
rude,let see would this be rude;

"There is just no reasoning with someone afflicted with Napoleon syndrome"

how about this?
"View from the cheap seats"
Those came out of Gunplumber !!!

Next for SKB AND Gunplumber,
where did I or anyone on here post that a C&R FFL could run as a business ?NO WHERE Gunplumber- the king of "intepetation" thinks that C&R's are "simply allows you to assemble a collection for personal use" (Copied from his post)
I,directly from the BATF sight posted this:

""Q: What does “engaged in the business” mean?

The term “engaged in the business,” as applicable to a firearms dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms."

AGAIN NO ONE said it was for running a business,where are you two getting this ?


Once again,for SKB AND Gun Plumber, why are you leaving out "just don't add unsubstantiated rumors"when bitching about the ingnorance lazy or greedy ? You would not like it if I make up what you are posting why do it to mine ?

here is my post;

"And again, I have no problem or care what any 01 FFL wants or does not want to accept,just don't add unsubstantiated rumors ("to risky") and "not a FFL" to hide ignorance,lazy or greedy."
SKB if an FFL is adding "unsubstantiated" rumors then I am "calling then names" but if your not where have called you names ?



If you can't win an argument don't put words in peoples mouths.

As I have always said,if SKB or any 01 FFL wants a DL or it mailed in a purple envelope wrapped in a 10 oz silver bar,what ever,fine ! As long as its BEFORE the deal is made.Then his buyer can decide if he wants t jump through the hoop.
If a 01 does not want to do any transfers to C&R FFLs,again FINE,just don t add "risky" or any other BS to it !Thats just "ignorant,lazy or greedy.

I could really care less as I have not need a 01 FFL for transfer in years.For now all my needs are met with my 03.If things change I can either use a friends or apply for one on my own and maybe get the "Darwin factor" moving along a bit quicker (credit to "JimfromTrafalgar!)

B Dudley:
The last time I looked it was still a free country so you can do as you please. The whole 01FFL thing for me is irrelevant since I don't have to pay for transfers to begin with.
You're the one who has a problem with selling/shipping to 03FFl holders but you can't come up with one instance where there was abuse in shipping an eligible firearm to one of them.
Lets see here. No one is breaking any laws,there no indication of a problem in this so what conclusion can be drawn?
Some 01FFL dealers want to make more money so it's in their intrest to actively discourage 03FFL transactions.
I think JimfromTrafalgar summed it up for the majority of us in his closing statement above.
Jim

Dave,
why don't you go argue with your wife.....you bore the hell out me. Have a nice Sunday.
Steve

Ok Pal I have let two or three swipes at me go and thats IT !


SKB,Steve, I have been down the road with you before and once again,when you LOSE on facts,you resort to name calling and outright misrepresentations of what I and others post.



You can't show where ANYONE on here has posted that
A) a C&R is for business
b) All FFL's are ignorant and lazy,although your sure starting to look like the former !

If you don' have a good argument then just shut STFU !

A. You know as well as I do that the business/C&R relationship was brought into this thread because the original poster, who has now edited his posts, was advertising for a gunstocking business which requires more than an 03 license.

B. Now you want to qualify your past posts with "all FFL's" and not take responsibility for the name calling you started.

C. Your wife is calling you, it is time for your Sunday reading comprehension class.

Dave, do us all a favor and STFU....

Dave.....This is just "the Internet". Step away from the keyboard for a while. Go shoot some clays or something. You can prolly tell that I just finished my stroke prevention class last weekend. Best to go smell some flowers. It's more healthy!

Aloha,

Bob

It's been my experience that people who don't know what they're talking about,and this includes left wing liberals, when confronted with your facts and pinned down to state any facts they may have to refute these will do the following:
1. Change the subject
2. Begin insulting you
Example "Please cite ONE instance of an 01FFL getting into trouble with the BATF over a deal with a C&R eligible firearm and a 03FFL licensee."
I'm not the type that usually engages in crudities here but the ones that need to "STFU" are the ones that don't know what they are talking about or have an "agenda".
Jim

oh yeah I have an agenda all right, hence why I went to all the trouble of actually opening a business. You might want to think that one all the way through......

Dave k
I am really sorry to let you down but I do have a C&R I would give you the number but you would most likely use it. I use it as I think it should be used. The rest of you guys need to go outside and get some fresh air because the only thing I see happining here is a guy running a gunstock company put his foot in his mouth and now he can't seem to pull it out. Might be the best thing that ever happened now he can get his own 01-ffl and not have to pay any fees.

Gee, in one day I've found out that I'm ignorant, lazy, and greedy because I have a 01 FFL.

Actually, I think this whole thread is a huge waste of band width but since it's taken on a life of its own I'll just add to it. I've done 10 transfers in the whole time that I've had an FFL. Those transfers were for people that I've known for at least 15 years and for my brother-in-law. I've not charged one dime for those transfers, infact they have cost me money because the state of Illinois charges me $2 for each one. One of those friends did buy me lunch so I guess that counts.

So why do I have an FFL? So I can receive and send guns to clients that I've done stocking jobs on and its a requirement for being a regular member of the American Custom Gunmakers Guild. Just part of being legal.

I do want to address the Q & A on the ATF web site. Don't count on those answers being the "Be all - end all" because they are NOT! Your individual ATF agent is the person that makes the rules - you don't argue with your agent because you will lose. You also have to remember that everything is up for interpretation. I sat through a seminar where two ATF agents couldn't decide whether Guild members needed a manufacturers license or not and they were invited to the seminar for that very reason. I'm not kidding!

I do want to address the Q & A on the ATF web site. Don't count on those answers being the "Be all - end all" because they are NOT! Your individual ATF agent is the person that makes the rules - you don't argue with your agent because you will lose. You also have to remember that everything is up for interpretation. I sat through a seminar where two ATF agents couldn't decide whether Guild members needed a manufacturers license or not and they were invited to the seminar for that very reason. I'm not kidding!

Well said, Doug.

Best piece of advice on this entire thread.....

Hi Doug:
This thread is certainly NOT directed at an 01FFL holder like you. You had done stockwork for me an I know you to be an honest and forthright person. I understand you make your living crafting stocks Not shipping guns around.
What we are talking about here is the01FFL holder,probably with no other talent, who gouges individuals on sending and receiving firearms which are C&R eligible by either neglecting to tell the "customer" they can ship it themselves or outright lying to them about the BATF regulations.
Jim

Does a license as a collector of curio or relic firearms authorize the collector to engage in the business of dealing in curios or relics?
No. A collector’s license only enables the collector to transport, ship, receive, and acquire curios and relics in interstate or foreign commerce, and to make disposition of curios and relics in interstate or foreign commerce, to any other licensee, for the period stated on the license. A collector’s license does not authorize the collector to engage in a business required to be licensed under the Act. Therefore, if the acquisitions and dispositions of curios and relics by a collector brings the collector within the definition of a manufacturer, importer, or dealer, he shall qualify as such. A dealer’s license must be obtained to engage in the business of dealing in any firearms, including curios or relics.

All this over $25. Amazing

Unfortunately for some it is well above $25.

I am not a dealer, manufacturer, repairer, only a simple collector. I have sold exactly one gun, and that was because it was worse than described, but somebody else wanted it and it was simpler to sell than fight about returning it.

In order to collect antique guns I went through the BATF and got a 03FFL (C&R). It was no big deal since I am not a criminal. I did the same thing in order to drive a car. I passed all of the requirements and got a legal license to do so.

However, I expect that I should be allowed to drive a car anywhere in the US as long as my drivers license is valid. There are Federal laws which mandate that my license has to be recognized in all states. No local LEO who doesn't believe Hawaii is one of the United States can deny me the right to drive. That has never happened to me, but I have been asked for my passport at airports for a domestic flight when a valid drivers license is all that is necessary.

I look at my 03 FFL in the same manner. I went though the vetting process and the US Government has granted me the right to purchase a C&R eligible gun without having to pay a fee to anyone. A 01 FFL who doesn't recognize that is no different than the LEO who would haul me in for driving on a Hawaii license, or the airport attendent who would not let me board a plane.

Dr Bob I agree with everything that you said. But I do have a question for you.
When you were asked for your passport at the airport did you
a) give them your passport and get on the plane
b) get terribly upset over the injustice and create a scene
c) go home mad
d) none of the above
People do stupid sh t every day.
If the op wanted the gun badly enough he would have paid the $25.Instead he chose option b above.

I want to take the chance to clear the air on this topic and say that I acted too quickly and out of irritation by starting this thread. And I should have stuck with my original gut instinct and kept the other party involved nameless.

I never ever thought this would have turned into what it has. I knew, as per my original comments that some similar cases would arrise where others have been through a similar scenario in the past, espacially since I am sure than many of us are collectors of the fine style of gun that this fine site is dedicated to.

I would like to apologize to anyone that may have had undue stress caused as a result of my shooting from the hip.
Truce?

Ushoot2,
Just calmly asked for the supervisor. Fortunately she had gotten through the 10th grade and recognized Hawaii as a state.

I wish the BATF would issue a statement. Does an 03 FFL confir a right to buy a C&R eligible gun that can't be denied? Or is it like an ID card that shows you are over 21 and can buy a drink at a bar, but the bartender can refuse to serve anybody for any reason?

Dudley:
I don't think you have anything to appologize for. I think this thread has been beneficial in that some here have been educated about abuses perpetrated by,hopefully, a small percentage of 01FFL holders.

Just a comment inre. to Dr Bobs above.
I emailed the BATF over 3 months agao asking what I felt was a simple procedural question inre. to Class III weapons. To date; I have not received a response so IMO don't hold your breath waiting for them to respond in another area.
Jim

I will accept your apologly and I really think that this thread brought out some good points. We all do things our own way. I think you should have just bit the bullit and shipped with the ffl and we both would have recieved guns that we were looking for. I do think that it was improper to state my handle you should have just vented what you wanted to and not let others goat you into pointing out who was involved. I did not vent because you would not ship my way and not doing that was your choice and I respect that. I just feel for a few bucks it could have all been avoided. next time just tell me that if that's the way I want to ship it then I have to pay the ffl fee. I just did that with another sale on this site. Anyhow as far as I am concerned no problems here and I accept
reddhott2

I agree reddhott2, looking back at it I most likely should have done what was needed to be done to keep everyone involved happy.
And yes, it was my original intent to just raise the topic as one of concern. And as I suspected, there is much confusion regarding the topic and friendly discussion or debate is always healthy. However, the line between friendly and unfriendly was allowed to be crossed when I named names. And for that, I am sorry.

Hey Steve
why don't you learn when you have gone to far,and thats now !
Now go back and look a the posts with your low class name calling.

this thread was started because of a non acceptance of a C&R,you came on here-with an agenda as always,about a DL ? Why? cause your looking for a argument.

As Jim as said,where is the case of a 01 FFL getting in trouble for shipping a qualified gun to a 03?

Steve-SKB
Now learn to STFU just like your wife tells you when you pull the same shit with her!

Dave,
I did call you a bore....you are indeed very boring. Now for the second time in this thread I will call you a name, you are mental midget, and you still can not comprehend. Why don't you quote my calling you anything other than boring or lacking in mental capacity? You can't, because I didn't. Be a big boy now and man up to starting the name calling, it will be a big step for you.....it's called honesty, give a try, you might like it.
Steve

If you guys all start singing we are the world I will quit this site cold turkey. Mr Dudley that gun is still here if you want to work out shipping

Dave, I really hate to raise your blood pressure but when you posted this I believe you are wrong.

The only firearms that go in your bound book are the ones you have acquired using your CC&R FFL. You can still acquire all the antique or C&R eligible firearms you want thru 01 FFL's or thru legal private sales between individuals and they are not entered in your book. I hope my interpretation is correct.

hey guys...case u havnt no ticed...u dun beat dis hause tu deth...giv hit ah rest.