Where do the finest guns in the world come from today?

I realize this will be an opinionated response, but is London long past its prime? Ferlach? Pictures always make a discussion like this better/more entertaining.

Regards
Chuck

Fabbri and Hartman & Weiss.

I don't have any pictures of Italian guns but I have to say the Fabbri, Desenzani (sp), F.Illi Rizzini, Beretta SOs etc... have world class fit, finish and engraving and reputations to match.

Best,

Mike

And I thought you were gonna say the finest guns in the world came from Amarillo...

Holland, Purdey, Westley, Fabri, Bosis, Hartman, best

Italy, hands down........

One perspective might be that the Brits still make the best English game guns, but the Italians have taken the double-gun to another level. Regardless of your tastes, it would seem hard to argue that the engraving and technological innovations used to produce guns like the Bertuzzi Gullwing or the F'lli Rizzini R1E aren't more advanced than the traditional London best guns, regardless of price.

Bertuzzi

Rizzini

I had an opportunity to handle a Hartmann & Weiss 28 ga OU last year and it is beyond my limited imagination to figure out how you could make anything more beautiful than that gun - it was exquisite.

That said, there is something very beguiling about the Dickson Round Action . . . .
Dickson

How is a Flli. Rizzini R1 different than a English game gun? I'm not being quip, I just have no idea.

I recall reading in DOUBLE GUNS AND CUSTOM GUNSMITHING that the Italian makers like Fabbri, Bosis and Flli Rizzini made a number of innovations to the "standard" London best sidelock design. While the guns continued to look similar aesthetically from the outside, the internal changes like the use of coil springs, integral bridles and overhead interceptors distinguished them from more typical best guns. The book has a rather strong critique in favor the lock designs used by the Italian makers.

Since you put the fork in the road, I'll take it.
On the subject of coil springs vs. cantilevered leaf springs; I think there's enough evidence to say that the coil is a more easily designed and manufactured spring and resultantly more reliable spring.

Chuck:
My two cents depends on your definition of "finest." Some Italian products are undoubtedly "fine," but if your perception extends to pride of ownership, I'd have to say that London still holds sway.

If I were asked "what kind of gun is that" at the sporting club today, my stock would instantly be higher if I were to respond "Purdey," rather than "Fabbri."

In my game, this is called "brand equity," and it cannot be purchased at any price or crafted by anyone. It is simply earned through time, consistency, tradition and public perception. Even Beretta has not attained this lofty plane -- and they predate Purdey and Hollands.

Sorry, but any Italian maker will have to wait a long time to acquire such equity, regardless of their engineering and precision.

Best, Kensal

Kensal,
Out in the west, in the land of Hollywoody, I hear lots of chatter about Fabbri and little of the London makers. This is from the very few idle rich and working Hollywoodies I've happened to be around (can't say I "know" them, but rather 'of them'). Occasionally, a Fabbri (sp?) shows up around the range. Not seen any of the big London maker guns. I do get the distinct impression Fabbri guns are thought more highly of in some of the circles around the range.

But it's pretty well recognized that CA has led the country in perceptions and initiatives, whether we all agree with them or not.

I think the best are definitely Italian, but it's a good argument. F.lli Rizzini, Bertuzzi, Fabbri, Bosis to name a few. Some of the finest London guns will rival these, maybe match some of them, but not better.

Hamburg (Hartmann & Weiss)

Wherever W.W. Greener/Richard Tandy is located and making guns.

Birmingham (A.A. Brown)

I've never seen a Fabbri that I liked. They don't inspire me the way a vintage Woodward or Boss O/U does.

Fli. Rizzinis leave me cold. They can be beautifully made, but I just don't like them. Same thing with most of the other Italian stuff.

SDH makes some good points about Italian sidelocks in Double Guns and Custom Gunsmithing. You can read his chapter on the subject here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=ulkd6lM...ock&f=false


OWD

Chuck:
Twas just my opinion on "The Italian Jobs." And any state that can give us Nancy Pelosi, American Idol and Charlie Sheen has got to know it's double guns, too. (LOL).

Taken in best humour, Charles. I used to direct some car spots out in LA LA years ago. I know the drill.

Best, Kensal

Way to go Chuck. You just started another dog fight. To boot, you keep throwing a piece of meat in the ring....

Just little pieces, Gil. :

Chuck, I agree that us Californians are the Initiative Kings. Unfortunately we don't seem to expect to ever have to pay for them.... Too bad Best doubles can't yet be acquired by "unfunded mandate"! Until then, my opinion on your question must remain shrouded in wisecrackery--can't afford to participate seriously!

Now if you'd asked "who made the best guns stocked in Tenite?" I'd have an informed answer.

Tony Galazan!

Strange that nobody mention PIOTTI ??
Marc.

Stranger still that no one mentions Boss....

ditto Piotti.
Who own modern Boss's especially O/U and use them a lot have to know how breakables they are.
Looking at Jaguars and Defenders I can't figure out how englishmen could make something best today.
"I'm blind, I can't hear..."

I forget the exact date, something like 1915, the US military decreed that it would only accept guns that used coil springs. This resulted in many sporting arms doing internal changes to replace leaf springs. This was mainly driven by high volume manufacturing methods of the day.

Pete

The older London makers hands down. They have been building guns for the most dangerous game for far longer than any other maker.
I agree that the guns built in Italy have surpassed the London makers in the looks and durability department but no one has ever came to close to matching the perfect balance and handling of the English gun.

Oh yea, we forgot about Perazzi. Not the best of cause, but all sportsmen hate it for worst handling and balance
How many best English guns you saw at World Championships? They lost everything.
Listen, I don't want to fight for Italians, but what you say is nonsence having nothing in common with reality.
I guess you are just petty bourgeois

I would agree with most of the posts with the exception of the Purdey and Holland guns. I have personally owned 1 used Purdey.
I have friends and clients who own new Purdeys and Hollands and for the stunning prices they paid for them, I have not seen great fit and finish. Too over priced and I personally believe that they owe much of these prices based on their.

I had a friend who owned a Peter Nelson gun and it put a Purdey and Holland to shame


John boyd

And those skeet events are really dangerous. We’re losing men left and right at these events!!! Safety has to be stepped up.
Geno, anyone can build a durable gun if your only concern is to stand there and shoot at a target and you don’t have to lug it around with you through 110 degree heat and 90% humidity all day. Hunting is just one test of a gun’s all around construction but hunting dangerous game is the ultimate test of that construction. The English guns have been proving themselves against dangerous game longer than anyone and they have a really good track record. And that track record is, most of the people that have used them have survived to write books on their experiences, that’s all anyone needs to know.

Granted Perazzi makes a world class gun that is a perfect blend of balance, handling and durability.
But if you note that a hunter will use a Remington or a Cooper or a Winchester or a whole host of firearms to hunt with, but when that hunter wounds an animal it’s the PH that’s going into the thick stuff first and he has an English built double in his hands. That should be the ultimate indication of top quality.

About ten years ago David McKay Brown said his greatest competition wasn't Holland and Holland, Purdey, or the Italian bespoke makers, but Beretta! David doesn't judge on the appearance of the gun, but as a gunmaker, he looks at the design and quality of the materials in the gun. The Beretta and Browning designs have been proven over decades of service to withstand the heaviest loads under the most trying circumstances. With that said, I think the best guns in the world would start with one of these actions in the white. Covered with insane engraving and wood porn of your choice.

Or you could buy the book at my web site and read the whole story....

Here is the Real Deal!

and it is an excellent "what is really going on inside the gun" read, too

Treblig,
Not trying to argue, but everytime I've seen a documentary, film or pictures of PH's, they have a beat up old bolt gun, usually and M70 or M98.

As I post, I am watching Under Wild Skies, the great Outdoor Channel show produced by my friend Tony Makris. His PH on a buffalo hunt is carrying a wonderful clamshell action double rifle among the bolt guns. Unfortunately, I don't know the maker of this rifle.

I agree Chuck I see them also. However when a wounded animal runs into the thick stuff most of the time someone off camera is handing that PH an English built double rifle.

When I've seen footage of that situation, usually 2 or 3 guys, with big guns and really big eyes and expressions like they are about to dirty their diapers, are shown going in.

Ever read Hemingway's short story, "The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber"? If not, find a copy. You'll get a pretty good idea of what it's like to go into the tall grass......

I've a slight bone to pick.

"--- wonderful weignt, balance, and handling!" Uummmmmm! That is like saying whichever maker you favor has wonderful stock dimensions. Wonderful for who? Since many "best work" guns are bespoke, we should assume that the stock dimensions and handling dimensions suited the the bespeaker. We should also assume that the "best work" gunmaker satisfied himself that the bespeaker was properly advised as to his specifications. That is to say, the bespeaker will have a gun which suits him/her personally for the purpose communicated to the maker. If this is not so, then the maker did not do due dilligence.

For purchasers of preowned/used or off-the-peg best guns, you have to assure yourself that the gun has stock dimensions and handling dimension that fit/suit you or can be successfully modified to do so.

Handling dimensions are no more unique to any maker than are stock dimensions. Was that Purdey you are dreaming of a light game or a game weight gun? Could it have been a heavy game, light pigeon, pigeon, or a light fowling gun? Or were you thinking of a big 'ole fowler? Purdey has made/makes 'em all and their handling dimensions are different. Ergo, one can't say, "Purdeys handle thus and so."

Thus endeth the rant.

I've never ordered a "bespoke" gun, let alone a London "best", but what little I understand about them being built to customer specs and my preference in gun characteristics, I see the logic of Don's 'bone'. I also gotta believe if 'London' made a gun with certain characteristics, Ferlach, Eibar, Scotland or about any other competent accomplished double maker can easily make a gun with the same weight, balance, weight distribution, etc.. It's not a mystical witch's brew, it's engineering, albeit the first guy that did the engineering that made it all come together was an artist of an engineer.

The barrel makers might disagree, and say that there is a lot of art in selecting the right steel and striking the barrels properly for the particular metal to get the required strength, weight and balance.

Its something new to me. How many "right" barrel steels you know and what is difference in strength of them?
There is English type of barrel design with heavy breech end, also there are German, Austrian etc.
What can change balance and handling of particular gun design is wood.

Doverham,
I have to respectfully disagree here. There may have been "...a lot of art..." the first time it all came together, but now, it's more about copying versions of what worked (whether it's the heavy barrels for a duck gun or light barrels for an upland gun.

Barrels can be and without a doubt, are measured even by H&H (I saw that in the video), suitable steels for barrels are narrowed down pretty well to fractions of percentage of alloying agents.

I think a more accurate discription of building a good set of barrels would be: there's a lot of skill in replicating the processes to create them.

To Doverham's point: steel suitable for barrels has a very small range of density, tools to measure striking are now commonly available and cheap, and, we now have the technology readily avaliable to measure weight, balance AND weight distributiion (as MOI). The art is in helping the customer decide what he needs/wants.

To Geno's point: no two pieces of wood have the same density. Therefore, no two stocks of the same dimensions will have the same weight, balance, and weight distribution; good point.

Good understanding, Chuck. You got it as I see it.

I also think that today's machining processes have the ability (and have had for several decades) to make the tubes such that traditional "striking" can be minimized to not much more than polishing them for blueing. The H&H video mentioned "striking" in their, I believe mainly because it has so much lore associated with it, but showed the guy playing with nothing more than about a .001" from the machined tube. It's not like the days when poor machining steels were used and crude machinery was used, then hand worked (struck, for those that have "bonnets" on their cars) to an acceptable dimension and finish.

Hey , chuck
I have a "Boot" on my car
Franc

Franc,
Boots belong on feet, bonnetts on a woman's head.

Couple of more things. Not all best guns are bespoke and not allbespoke guns are best. When we start talking about "best" and "besoke" it is easy to forget that most of us lack the wallet to deal in such goods in the traditional sense.

What to do? Compromise! Simple as that. Get real about what your wallet is capable of. Think used/preowned/broken-in. Or, think what attributes of a best work gun you can give up and still be satisfied; understand that it is highly probable you will move on from this gun at some point. The one gun for all purposes and all times rarely works. Now, a fork in the road. Either learn how to identify used guns you can modify to suit yourself and who can do the mods - - - sort of after the fact bespeaking. Or, find a maker who will supply a suitable gun within your price range. Simple, but sound boxlocks are being offered at some pretty reasonable prices these days.

The key, IMO, is to learn what you want and how to specify it. Second, learn from each purchase. Changing shooting purpose will likely mean changing guns. Caution against changing guns for the excitement of a new gun unless you are an admitted gun changer. Make each gun a learning experience and a step closer to whatever you want in the way of a best gun.

Chuck
I guess a hood belongs on your 'ead then, dunno exactly where the trunk fits in
I still try to drive on the left hand side when traffic isn't too heavy
franc

I can dig all O' that Rocket'
especially the last bit
franc

never owned one. no dog in this fight. But what about the high end guns from CMC?

I don't think their value will ever be as great as their asking price.

Good advice Rocketman. That's pretty much what I've done in the last 10 years that I've become very interested in doubles (as opposed to just liking them before that). I recently had to sell nearly all my doubles for financial reasons, but I still have my super-lightweight French 16 gauge upland gun, my 12 gauge Pedersoli ML, and my 12 gauge Remington 870 rainy day/household defence gun.
Steve

Or you could buy the book at my web site and read the whole story....[quote=SDH-MT]

That looks very tidy!

Always like your contributions, Rocketman. I'm starting to move my doubles as my legs become weaker and am living with the conceit that a best gun will always be in the cabinet---best for me.

Do not leave Famars out of the picture.
Avantis Gallery

JC

About once a year I make it to the Las Vegas Arms Show in Jan/Feb and get to see all the high end firearms. I guess I could buy one if I really wanted to sacrifice in other areas a lot. But I have already learned even carrying a $5000 or $6000 shotgun around a sporting clays course, much less the granite rocks of the desert for quail, sort of tightens me up as I am overly concerned with damaging it. So I don't seriously contemplate the Bests all that much. But I do like really nice engraving which shows up best on the white receivers most of the Italian guns showcase. The English with their understated looks just don't have the same appeal for me. So judging from appearances I would have to say the Filli Rizzini, Fabbri, and a couple other Italian guns are probably ahead of Purdey and H&H all other aspects considered.

Chuck: I don't know how you got away with this sort of controversial question on this forum without getting lots of flack. In terms of best side x sides I have to vote English such as Purdey, Holland and Boss because I think bar action sidelock for shotguns is a requirement to be a best and all the others are only copies of what the English produced!

Yeah, but nearly everyone that posts regularly has put their 2 cents in.

Me? I was at the Vegas show one year when H&H had a couple guns worth around $200k each and one of the two guys in green asked if I wanted to pickup one of them. I declined.

While having been in the manufacturing of machined parts and toolmaking for a good part of my life gave me the background to discern good work, and I despise low quality work, I will likely never own a gun of the quality being discussed here. But, it is entertaining to get opinions on it.

Yeah Chuck, I enjoyed reading all the replies too and find this sort of question a lot more fun than some of the other more mundane types of questions seen here.

If you're not reading for fun, you're not living, period. Contributions by our stalwart know-somethings are a bonus, a premium, to being here but it's the generosity of spirit that appeals most to me.

Yep, Chuck gets away with these provocative topics because he absolutely won't retaliate or be hateful or make a personal attack.

Best,

Mike

Mike,
What kind of junk are you sellin now?

Since this didnt say "Best double guns" Whats wrong with a Model 12 in 16 Bore? Cant wreck em, shoot where ya point em...What else do you need?

Well, the OP is asking about "today," not pre-'64.

HaHa. You're joking, right?

With the proper artistic restraints imposed, his bespoke OUs warrant consideration

28 ga Galazan OU

I would venture a guess that shooting doves or sporting clays with this 7lb, 30" 28 gauge would be a memorable experience. I believe this is his pinless/screwless version. Too bad he doesn't make more like this

LD is dead on though, because there is one of the 'kings' being built today, the Model 37!!!

Did anyone mention Watson Bros.? If they can build a gun like this, they certainly deserve consideration!

Watson 4-bore

(thanks to OWD for finding this)

This question needs to be split between who makes the best over and unders and who makes the best side by sides. that's the way I see it anyway.

Yeah, and there is something I am unclear about. Is the question "Who makes the best guns in the world today" or "What are the best guns in the world today?"

Best,

Mike

Side-by-side or over/under, I think Tony makes them both --



However, when that good looking Italian lady that translates for Luciano Bosis shows me the inner workings of a Bosis lock I could be swayed!!!

Mike,
I think the answer to your question is: You have to answer the latter to conclude the former.

But, I did ask about the "...best guns ..." (plural) as I don't think it's worth debating about which particular gun is the best. I was generalizing on purpose. For example, I think Perazzi has to be in the group of best guns in the world, as these guns seem to be either THE most durable/reliable guns around or dang close to it. And, to me, going bang reliably is a significant trait. The most finely fitted and polished gun inside and out, falls out of the running if it is plagued with poor reliability. Reliability has to be at least good before it can be in the running as one of the best, wouldn't you think? If your H&H, Purdey, Famars, etc., broke down more than a Huglu, you'd be pissed.

Well I can make a good argument that the most reliabile shotguns in the world today are either the Bertta 68X series or the Browning Citoris. But I don't think that makes them best guns. Handling qualities, triggers, fit and finish also go into defining "Best".

The latest Ferrari supercar is superior to Honda Civic. But the Civic is more reliable and requires less maintenance.

I think the best guns in the world are the ones made by the Brits after World War I and and before the Depression. The gunsmiths were turning out large quantities of guns and they were in top notch form from building all those gun, the steels were top notch from the WWI weapons development, the design had been worked out to perfection. The engravers were banging out the engraving on a Purdey in couple of days. The engraving was excellent because they had done so many before and were so practiced. The weight and balance were optimized. Altogether a confluence of excellence not matched before or since.

My favorite guns to collect are Foxes and Parkers. But a few London and Birmingham guns are in my safe because they are so exquisite.

Best,

Mike

Mike,
I was really asking in the context of 'made today'. I had no intent of trying to apply the traditional English gunmaker definition of "a Best Gun" to this, but I think it's entertaining and educational to hear everyone's opinions regardless.

On reliable guns, the Pguns have accomplished things few if any have in the past. They also seem to have mastered 'handling qualities' of 'weight and balance' for their intended use. I think for their intended use, they are the acme. Do they have the finest craftsmanship in the world? No. But they do have an arguably unmatched balance of excellent design and execution...making them one of the best guns in the world on my list.

Chuck and Mike: You guys are arguing over semantics, Beretta vs Perazzi vs Citori, etc. All are great guns.....why not with so many years of technological advancement. But what you are discussing and there is lots of controversy in shooting fraternity of preference, eg skeet krieghoff and trap perazzi really is missing the boat in my opinion because the best guns then and now are of sidelock origin and therefore the English can claim first prize in both Side by Side and over and Under because of the bar action sidelock and the Woodward over and under. ALL others are only copies of what the English originally produced which indeed are 'BEST' guns.

A very interesting thread, and obviously very subjective.Amorillo Mike makes some very valuable and in my opinion correct comments.
But Chuck means today, so here is a little input from myself.
We are really talking about quality, reliability, fit, finish, etc., so it is my considered opinion that the guns now available from Boxall & Edmiston are possibly today's finest.
Why? The founder,director and engineering brains Peter Boxall was in at the beginning of CadCam engineering after learning his skills at Jaguar Cars Toolroom. He then moved to apply these skills at WC Scott before moving to Holland & Holland to update their manufacturing methods.
A few years ago on a weekend walking trip to Shropshire he & his good lady fell in love with the area and decided to make their home in Shropshire thereby laying the foundations for Boxall & Edmiston. They now have available boxlocks, sidelocks that are simply exquisite. In a recent Shooting Times revue Lewis Potter commented 'it embodies British gunmaking tradition with technology,attractiveness and honesty of design that is hard to beat'. He further commented that the trigger pulls were like 'breaking glass' in fact nearly every comment he made was in awe and envy. All this from a very skilled English gunsmith is praise indeed.

Salopian-

I'm glad you brought them up. I talked to Peter Boxall and James Edmiston at the Southern SxS in April. Great guys, and they're turning out a very nice gun.

Peter was especially gracious with his time, and he was kind enough to answer my never ending questions about gun making and fine firearms. He even pulled out his laptop and indulged me with 3D CAD diagrams of their new boxlock. It's a very interesting gun. It looks like a good deal for a brand new shotgun. From what I saw, it was far nicer than other new SxSs in that category.

Here's a link to their company:

http://www.boxallandedmiston.co.uk/

And here's a link to the review of the gun in the Shooting TImes:

http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/guns/526107/Boxall_amp_Edmiston_scrollback_boxlock_shotgun_review.html

OWD

OK, this discussion is over.

Read all about the BEST of the best in doubles:

http://www.dogsanddoubles.com/

They're selling at Christie's and estimated to bring $2.5million+.

OWD

When I posed the question, I really didn't think about all the specialized uses. However, it's clear to me that the best gun in a billionaire's smoke room ain't gonna cut it at the Olympics or even at the state shoot for clay targets or week after week at the range for years, shooting tens of thousands of rounds annually. So, I accept that my list would include many different types and makes of guns, not necessarily of the finest craftsmanship overall, but demonstrated to be the finest in its class for intended use.

The classic sidelock obviously has to be in the list, maybe the crux of the list, because so much of the finest craftsmanship effort is focused on it, still today, after all this time. The finest makers of these seem to be numerous. I think this classic "finest gun" segment is the most contested because these guns are judged mostly on looks and reputation. I say this because: 1) few are made 2)fewer still get used much comparatively 3)most of us don't/won't get closer than either reading about some of them or seeing them at shows.

Right now, I have to go lengthen the forcing cone in my latest .410 ... really.

Why wouldn't a true, best-quality sidelock designed to shoot modern, heavy target loads be able to take the abuse of competitive shooting?

Back at the turn of the century, the thin upper crust of British society put thousands and thousands of rounds through their Purdeys during a shooting season. In fact, they probably put more rounds through them than most target guys do today.

Those guns stood up to the challenge, and those guns are still around today.

I imagine price is the real reason why you don't see more true best-quality guns on the target circuit. Not quality.

A new Hartmann & Weiss O/U is going to cost you $130,000+ plus a long wait, even if you could get one (which you probably can't).


OWD

Chuck, beware the "don't tamper with your guns/don't lengthen cones/don't open chokes inquisition patrol" may cometh!

Good thread btw.

JC

I go back to my argument that the Browning Citoris and the Beretta 68Xs are the most reliabiable guns in the world. They are that because both comapanies have been continuously improving quality and they have so many copies to work out the bugs. The Honda Civics go 300,000 miles without wearing out or breaking down. Try that in the latest Ferrari. The manufacturers of mass produced guns have an advantage in that they put out so many guns the smallest manufacturing or design problem becomes apparent quickly. If they are a quality company they are constantly improving their product and they are trying to eliminate the one gun in 10,000 that has a problem. The guys that make 25 guns a year don't have that luxury, and neither does Ferrari.

Best,

Mike

So where does that place our hardware guns, the Parkers, Elsies, and Lefevers, Mike? I haven't had one break on me. Gunsmiths here on the board have seen lots of weaknesses in these guns. But considering all the current technology do larger productions runs today make all that difference in reliability? (It's a sign of age, Mike, but I don't oooh-and-aaah much about "improvements" in guns!)

OWD,
Good to hear all the diverse opinions.
My personal opinion is that the serious competion shooter today shoots many times more than any of the victorian era shooters. I have nothing other than speculation to base that on.

But, I think you've missed my point. "Quality" is a subjective term all by itself. "Quality" of what? Quality of design for intended use. Quality of manufacture. Quality of finish.

Obviously a Pgun can't compare quality of finish to a "smoking room" gun. But, it can compare in it's quality of design for intended use.

If a London sidelock was a viable gun compete on the world competion circuit it'd be there, IMO.

If a London sidelock was a viable gun compete on the world competion circuit it'd be there, IMO.
Chuck it is, because Pinky La Grelle uses a Holland & Holland for Olympic skeet.
Because she can afford to.

Those guns stood up to the challenge because (1) they were very well made, but (2) because their owners, that thin upper crust as you put it, sent their guns back to the original makers at the end of the gunning seasons with instructions to go completely through them and make them like new again. If it weren't for that I really do not believe they would have held up under the strain of many thousands of rounds nearly as well as Purdeys, Kreighoffs, etc, and still be around today. Who knows how many times many of those old "still tight" S x Ss had hinge pins replaced and were put back on face.

No way do I believe their locking systems were as bulletproof as the top target guns of today. To begin with, IMO the steels available to them at the turn of the century were not the equal of what is being used in best target guns today.

SRH

I've had to have Giocomo put a Perazzi back on face too! I think we're beatin' a dead horse with this question. I like a Mossberg pump to shoot turkeys with.....no better gun made for that purpose. See what I mean?

What about Peter Hofer?

Well, a turn-of-the-century English best, seeing seasonal use, with black powder or equvalent English period loads, gone through every season by the maker, should last a long time.
But, sometimes, they don't. Sorry to pop the bubble. The notion they are all still in use is a foolish one, perpetrated by fools, that persists in spite of evidence otherwise.
For my money (cliché, I understand, but, IT'S MY MONEY) an English (sorry, only those English guns with modern levels of proof need apply) or continental boxlock on the Anson and Dealey patent, with disc set strikers, and perhaps intercepting sears, if we want to impress the "conoscentí", will prove to be more durable and capable than most of us.
For a great price.
Best is as best does.

Best,
Ted

Best guns in the world? For me the magic still lies in the guns made by those Edinburgh Scots!

-

“I shoot for Holland & Holland (the gun-makers) and I am the only one with an English gun on the international circuit,” she said. “They have never done a competitive gun before and it is like taking part in a banger race with a Bentley.

“I feel very proud of it. It feels gorgeous. I came across the chairman one day and tapped him on the shoulder and said, ‘Can you do something for me, my gun is clapped out’. I asked him if they would be prepared to make me one and he said they would. It is pure image. It feels gorgeous. I do not say I am going to shoot better because I have one, but at least when I miss, I miss in style.”

I don't think an H&H has achieved the acme of target gun accomplishments. There's a lot of makes in competition.

Again, we are arguing semantics. We are trying to compare apples to oranges. These guns we are discussing were made for different intended purpose. A 5 lb 2 oz English sidelock was not made or intended for shooting a 100 round trap doubles event nor was a 9 lb , 32 inch Perazzi Mirage built or intended for shooting timber doodle. Also, none of these guns were made by Providence and anything made by man will break. Let's move to another one of Chuck's fun topics.

Were'd my .410 killing power thread go?

How did the London pheasant poppers get back in here? The "Once upon a time in an old Roman town on a small island at the center of an Empire" (quoting myself of course) guns are a historical phenom pinned like butterflies in O&L cases and requiring OWD's annual spruceup. The best gun is one that's best for you for show and for go maybe but certainly for go. And of course, one would have to be able to buy the gun and have money left for Spam so "Best" would at some point attach itself to what we'd like to believe (but don't) is the philistine irrelevancy of price. So Best=Most Expensive. I like apples and oranges and clementines and Abbatico&Savinelli and Spam.

jack

I doubt many doubles have been shot more than this one:

http://www.gavingardiner.com/BidCat/detail.asp?SaleRef=0012&LotRef=192

Made in 1895, it's still in proof and you could use it today.

Sure the bbls are thin and you would want to replace them, but the gun itself is still going strong.

So to all the haters, that's what it means to be a Best.

OWD

To get back to the question posed:

It has not been my experience that London ever had a strangle hold on the "best gun" thing, either in numbers or uniqueness. There may have been a cache in the anglophile Empire thing but the guns themselves were certainly nothing special. Beautiful guns were made many places.

These days it would seem that the Italians have a pre-eminent position not only by number of gunmakers but the incredible quality of the products. Just as one has never stood alone, they do not now - but it would take some real doing for anyone to be better.

Even when it comes to making machines of most any kind, the Italians have a sense of line and style that is unequaled currently: toasters, coffee makers, cars, lathes, you name it they can make it prettier AWA functional.

Altho I admit that Marelli and Lucas can still meet anyone's expectations no matter how low they are.

HTH
have a day
Dr.WtS

I have a Perrazi SCO but if anyone thinks that´s a best gun they are in cloud cuckoo land, functional and 100% reliable yes, "best" NO, rgds, Mike

I don't think anyone would posit an SCO as a "best", it's just a way fancy production gun. Now, an SHO or DHO would be a different proposition. I've seen a couple DHO's that make Purdeys/etc look like small time stuff. And there was an SHO three bbl set that I would have committed illegal acts for - as in Way Best!

prolly not JMO

Dr.WtS

Mike, I brought it to the top.

CLEMENTINES RULE!!!

Best gunmaker in the world? Has to be Hartmann and Weiss! Everyone else is competing for second place.

Oh yea, well, how about this one Mike???
"In 1872, Selous paid 6 pounds each for a pair of smooth bore "duck guns" by Isaac Hollis of Birmingham. And with these he killed 78 elephants over the next three seasons."
Or this one;
"We soon came upon two cows (elephant?) and fired together hitting one hard the other was a very long shot with the second barrel of the Westley Richards' rifle"; entries by WC Baldwin as of April 10th, 1854.

I can go on if you want, lots more entries about the old English makers in those African hunting journals that I have.

Let's see now, where's the Hartmann & Weiss, where's the Boxall & Edminston? Where's all these other makers that have been named throughout this post? I can't seem to find those names anywhere. Oh, that's right, they haven't even been born yet. Wait a minute, on second thought, even their Fathers and their Grandfathers haven't been born yet!!!