Three weeks ago while browsing the Gun Library of our local Cabelas I found very few British guns and was told by the clerk that the prices of British boxlock guns were so low that no one wanted to sell them and so the store was unable to buy any to replenish their stock.
Any one out there with first hand experience care to comment? Is this the time to buy? (If you can find a gun for sale!)

My guess is prices are only low if people need to sell. I would also differentiate between people who buy and sell guns as a profit making venture and those who enjoy owning and using a piece of history. The best guns are still commanding good money internationally, but someone here will be better versed in the American Market than me.

I know next to nothing about the economic climate of the United States. I'm still trying to figure out why, when a couple years ago the sub-prime mortgage wet dream blew up and the whole country was suicidal, within 6 months everything was "normal" and people were spending money like water again, although it can be argued that water is worth more.

But whatever that clerk told you sounds to me like the biggest string of nonsensical poppycock since Obama's last speech.

My humble, uninformed isolationist opinion.

Well I have a few I'm motivated to sell. In my view The market has tanked in them, and I have sold quite few in the past. Much easier for me to sell a decent rifle....any rifle, than a British BLNE.

Gun sales are slow right now. Everyone who wanted to buy something(mostly black rifles) after the Kenyan stole the election has done so and doesn't need anything else. Moving back to collectible guns like British doubles the market is admitingly slow. When it will pick back up is anyones guess.
Jim

A Texas friend and purveyor of fine firearms recently told me he'd do about anything to keep from acquiring another British boxlock in his stock. He says he can't sell them right now. I suggested he drop about $2K off of one I kinda liked. He said things weren't quite that bad yet. I'm gonna check back in 3-4 months.

[quote=Gun sales are slow right now. Everyone who wanted to buy something(mostly black rifles) after the Kenyan stole the election has done so and doesn't need anything else. Moving back to collectible guns like British doubles the market is admitingly slow. When it will pick back up is anyones guess.
Jim [/quote]
I agree. My local gun store has witnessed a dramatic drop in gun sales but the demand for ammunition is still way up. Especially in 7.62x39 and .223 ammo. Shotgun shells are still at a reasonable price whereas rifle/pistol ammo in anything other than the above mentioned are very high.

First I have found many of the clerks in the Gunrooms to be about a five watt bulb level of illuminations on gun matters not about black guns or imported semi-autos. This time of year is more fishing than hunting at Cabelas. Call it the off season for used doubles.

Now when you want to talk about money and the economy that is another issue. In my area the recovery is very shallow and very weak. We are making the same amount of stuff just seven million less people are getting paid to do it.

I would like to point out that the employments best decrease in a month was the month the Government changes how they defined the unemployed. Those who have been out of work and were not actively looking for work but who were still getting unemployment checks were declared not really unemployed. That allowed the government to stop counting them as unemployed but they did still send them their unemployment checks for not being really unemployed. Kind of like the old Monty Python scene where the person was not entirely dead but was mostly dead.

I know that banks have more homes than they ever dreamed of having in their worst nightmare. Soon Banks will be spending real money on upkeep of repos that they can not sell. My bank is trying to get tax assessments reduced because they are having to pay real estate taxes on homes they can not sell. This glut is a major problem. This is depressing other home sale values in my area by about 25-30%. Then if the market does recover they will have another round of foreclosures to work through. My bank has stopped foreclosing in all but extreme cases. Until home values return and the glut of used homes sells this economy will never recover. Welcome to change.

We got a chicken and egg problem here.

Home values won't return and the glut of used homes will not sell until there are people out there with money to buy them and banks willing to loan them money to buy them. Right now, we've got neither. The people who might buy them can't because they don't have jobs or the jobs they do have don't pay nearly enough. The banks won't loan for any number of reasons.

The problem is exacerbated by Treasury. They do not want to recognize that a lot of fraud - on all sides - went into making this bubble. They are perfectly willing to go after individual borrowers who might have fudged their loan app or something, but are just as desperate to avoid going after their buddies in the banks (and mortgage originators and title shops and everywhere else in the financial industry) because they want to be able to get jobs in those banks after government service and because those bankers make campaign contributions. The banks - which are insolvent and should have been allowed to fail (or even been pushed, like Lehman and Bear) - took the money they should have used to loan, and lined their own pockets. It's all high times now if you're a banker. They're making money hand over fist.

But, when McDonalds announced they'd be hiring 50,000 people last month, at f'g minimum wage, they got over 1,000,000 applications. They wound up hiring about 60,000 people. In other words, for every job flipping burgers, there were 16 applicants.

We should be getting a WPA - the roads in Maine are beat to hell - but instead we get a whizzing contest about how we have to cut Medicare and let old folks die so we don't have to borrow any money.

I'll leave it to you economists to argue about the causes and the fixes of the US financial woes but can you relate it to Brit box locks vs say, double rifles, Farquharson rifles, Colts, Winchesters, rook rifles, or side locks, etc.? My friend the dealer was not subtle at all when he was talking about not taking any box locks in trade for the foreseeable future.

Bob,

I have contented for over a year that the frenzy for British shooters is over. On another board I stated that I had close to a dozen shooters with two of the dealers I have dealt with heavily over the last decade and that they are still there. All are priced at or slightly below where they would have sold quickly two and a half years ago.

Investment grade British guns are still selling and I have both bought and sold several high grade guns within the last year and whether I was buying or selling, transactions happened fast.

I expect to see more of the same for both shooters and high grades at the UP in a couple of weeks.

You wouldn't be interested in selling that little Scottish wand you recently acquired, would you.

I think boxlock 12's right now are a good deal if you're buying, bad if you're selling. Agree with the above that it's been that way for some time. Somewhat different situation on the smaller bores. Not nearly as many of them around.

Anything collectible that is in the modestly priced category like box lock British doubles are a tough sell right now.
The Reason: Huge number of lower end collectors have left the market due to the current economic conditions and,IMO, won't be returning any time soon. The ACTUAL unimployment rare is MUCH higher than the government is reporting and ,realisticly, is 25 to 30% because those looking for work and no longer receiving employment checks are not counted.
On the other hand; reloading(pistol and rifle) is booming like it never has before. The price of reloading components doubled nearly overnite after the Kenyan occupied the White House and the prices haven't come down very much in the past two years.
Those who don't reload continue to stock up on ammo as there is a concern that their ability to purchase will be restricted in the future.
Keep one thing in mind here: The ONLY reason the situation isn't much worse here is that oil pricing is still pegged to the US dollar. When the price of oil goes up the Treasury just prints more dollars. When other Countries such as Britian or Germany want to buy oil they have to convert their currency into dollars to do so. If the pricing of oil in dollars were to change the dollars value would plummet overnite and throw us into a depression worse than we've ever experienced before.
Jim

I find this discussion interesting because, for about a year now, I've been in the market for a Brit gamegun. Because I'm a working stiff with a low marginal tax rate, my choices are limited to simple boxlocks -- probably a 12 because, inch for inch, they're cheaper. That's OK. I've never cared for the thought of carrying a gun in the grouse woods with ornate wood and carving that look like they belong in the drawing room or library of the country manor home of a House of Lords member, circa 1910.

So riddle me this: If the market is blotto, why is it that the asking prices of these guns in the various online venues we all haunt never change? Same guns, time after time, relisted at the same old prices. Presumably because the "auction" sites (they are almost never truly auctions, of course) charge no listing fee, so what does a seller have to lose?

What happened to the vaunted principle of supply and demand? I've been involved in several hobby interests over the years. Let's define "hobby interests" here as activities that involve stuff that nobody needs to buy to live. Stamp collecting, fly fishing with old bamboo fly rods, growing african violets, collecting old weather vanes, or shooting vintage shotguns are all hobby interests under this definition.

I know that there are sellers at this website, including possibly one or two who have contributed to this thread. Please understand that I am not a troll and honestly do not want to offend anyone. Nobody else works for nothing, so why should you? People are free to do business any way they want. But I have never encountered more obdurate (a kind word for pig-headed, I guess) dealers in any other hobby interest I've indulged in than I have in the one under discussion here. It as if the law of supply and demand doesn't apply. There's an old saying about business that goes something like this: It all comes down to a simple question. Which do you prefer, a quick nickel or a slow dime? In the doublegun biz, there seems to be a lot of guys who are tolerant of, not just slow dimes, but very sloooow dimes.

Just my 2 cents. There are people here who forget more in their sleep every night about these guns than I know and I will happily be educated or stand corrected.

What UIM said rings with me since I see guns on the net that have been for asking prices that haven't changed since Bush was in office, some, the first term. Frankly, I think these dealers are more dablers than businessmen. They can't be making a living on gun sales.

In my case UIM, I do not have to sell those guns I have consigned, so my dealers have been instructed to reject any offer that is not within 10 percent of what I have consigned them for. That is much like sitting on stock certificates while waiting for an up trend.

That said, I have seen a flood of 2k-to 5k guns come up for sale in the inventory of the dozen or so dealers I have either bought from or shopped when looking for a shooter.

To me, it appears that there is a glut of those guns out there and it also appears that most are being consigned for what they were purchased for two, three, maybe four years ago. There are some very nice pieces among them.

However, they are not selling fast, if at all. And if the offers made to the gentlemen I have consigned with is indicative, unless a seller will take a hit of 30 or 40 percent the market for them is flat.

There are dealers here on this board who can shed light on this discussion from their side of the table. I hope that they do.

Basically, this fact UIM mentions informed my thoughts: I've been looking at ALL doubles, sidelocks and boxlocks, on online dealers sites and/or individual sellers f or many years and the asking prices just DO NOT reflect what the Cabelas clerk and much of you are reporting. Some of them apparently do get sold but many others just sit there with no indication that the dealer will give them a "specially reduced" ticket. I just don't know what to believe.

A little more than a year ago I was half-planning to pull all my invested money, everything, out of the market. And yet I MADE some very good dough in the year + since.

Something in the back of my head STILL tells me to pull out, but time goes by and the quarterly statements are GOOD.

And yet I'm still convinced this country is going to hell in a handbasket, but economically I remain essentially inert.

I'm disabled and my wife got laid off a couple weeks ago. Am I worried? NO! YES! NO! YES! Depends on what time of day you ask me.

If there is a financial swami out there please flick a crumb of "sound thinking" with "guaranteed outcome" my way.

Cabela's, with 20 Gun Libraries, list a total of 65 English doubles. From their standpoint, that's not a lot of inventory. But then I've noticed that at least some of their GL's are WAY down in terms of "fine" used gun inventory, compared to what they carried 2-3 years ago.

People aren't buying for fun (shooting) people are buying for collectables. And collectables means sidelocks. (minus say westly richards droplocks and a few other similar things).

My high end shop (that I go to, not that I own, sorry that was confusing) had their best first quarter EVER. one month (I forget which, he told me) was their best month EVER earlier this year (2011) in what is normally a slow month.

Now is the time to buy if you want a shooter. If people don't want to deal, let it sit. It's only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. It's just like housing, look around and people still think it's 2005. People with cash (not credit, cash) can make any deal they want or walk away. Some people (& dealers) can just sit on inventory forever, but most can't, sooner or later they'll need the cash flow. It's always been true with guns. Ever go to a gun show and see the same guy with the same tired inventory for year after year?

On the other hand, inexpensive ($1.5K-5K) British hammer guns of all gauges in good shape are selling like hot cakes I hear.

British boxlocks are great value if you know a good one from an ordinary one and pay accordingly.

Really high quality boxlocks with beautiful wood, fine chequer, drop points, best quality barrels and finest full-coverage engraving make nothing like a sidelock of similar quality. I have collected a good number for collector clients in the last three or four years and always laughed at the fact that such high quality can be had for so little (under £3,000 all done).

True that as investments they may not do too well unless the market catches up but boxlock prices have not changed much over the last 15 years. A good reason only to buy what you like and to use it and/or enjoy having it.

This makes them good prospects to buy if you want to treat yourself to a lovely gun for the price of a new Spanish POS.

3,500 pounds is about what, $5,700 dollars. That is about the threshold for guns, Boxlock or Side lock, selling reasonably quick here in the states. Or at least that is what I think I am seeing happening within the inventory of several gun dealers I check weekly.

The 2,500 to 4,500 dollar gun is the one stalled, unless reduced by 30 or more percent, I think.

Just my observation and to some degree my experience, both buying and selling over the last two years.

That's the main problem...people buying and selling don't know the difference. If a nice one comes up for sale it doesn't last too long.

I've seen enough of them that have landed on these shores, had a quicky chamber lenthening (or, not) been cut loose in the foothills with 'bubba, or his brother, with a bunch of hot SAAMI spec ammunition, and are now suffering off the face, bulged tubes, weakened or broken stock, screws out of time, smashed pads, and on and on.
Its only been in recent years that one could procur, commercially, the correct ammunition for a century old Brit gun here, and has been even less time for regular folk to learn there is a difference. Or, that the same guns should be vetted somewhat regularly.
The damage has been done. The simple fact is that for typical, American, rough shooting use, there always were and are better tools.

Best,
Ted

I am in Small Bore's camp. I would much rather have an English Boxlock than a Spanish sidelock! The English guns are just that superior IMO.

Well it is real simple. People who have money are not spending it, people who want to spend it do not have any, no one is willing to lend money to those who want it and should be able to borrow money and the experts can write papers or expound about how the economy is in recovery all the want. We are in a very flat period of economic growth. So discretionary goods, which double guns clearly are, are in very poor demand. On top of that I suspect the market is flooded with slow moving guns right now. Doubles are an old mans game and we are loosing more old men all the time.

I'm in KY Jon's camp-we are not much different than Charles Gordon was, chasing out-of-period designs that are worth less than they cost.
Mandatory non-toxic laws will make them even more of an anachronism. Like us.

Best,
Ted

I was telling a friend lastnight that I don't think we've ever had so much vacant commercial property in SoCal. Those in the discretionary goods food chain from makers to distributors, to retailers, has to be hurting or worse, they're already gone. Good time to be in the toilet paper biz. Demand is holding steady.

It will be interesting to watch Holt's auction on June 23rd and see the prices realised. There are quite a number of Brit boxlocks there by any number of makers (some well known and some not so). I see their estimates are not much different than they were 5 years ago. Personally, I have had good luck selling medium priced Brit boxlocks and those that bought them seem well pleased.

Best Regards, George

The market is soft, but I also think that lot of people have caught on to the fact that the US market is full of worn out, overpriced guns.

A dealer in Texas specializes in this kind stuff--boxlocks, sidelocks, big names & small. His inventory is staler than wisecracks about our President's heritage.

And it's not just boxlocks that are sitting around. There are a lot of brand new, top-end guns on the market. Nobody wants them (or at least not until the prices come WAY down).

OWD

Ted, you're sounding like a prophet of doom and gloom. To start with, CIP has come up with guidance on steel shot loads for both 12's and 20's at "ordinary" CIP proof levels (850 bars). Those guns will be limited in both shot size and velocity, but then they're somewhat limited already, even with lead loads--but certainly adequate for American upland shooting, on birds up to and including pheasants. The 2 1/2" 12ga would become problematic for pheasant hunting with CIP standard steel loads, and the 2 1/2" 20ga wouldn't be useful for birds any larger or tougher than ruffed grouse. But I don't think we're going to be faced with a choice of either hanging them on the walls or shooting them only with very expensive nontox alternatives suitable for guns that won't handle American steel.

Secondly, "mandatory nontoxic laws" have not done well this year. The EPA has determined that it cannot regulate lead in ammunition as a result of legislation passed by Congress, and it's highly unlikely the current Congress will give them that authority. Therefore, all regulation of lead shot for other than migratory birds would have to come from the states. Just in the last few months, SD rejected a proposal to require nontox for hunting along roadways. The governor shot down an attempt to expand nontox requirements on public hunting areas in Iowa. The MT legislature passed a bill revoking the state game agency's authority to regulate ammunition. And here in WI, sportsmen at the spring DNR meetings voted by a strong majority against a DNR proposal to require nontoxic shot on all DNR-controlled land. That was an advisory vote only, but with the current administration in Madison and new leadership at the DNR, that proposal is quite likely to die as well.

The upshot is that additional nontox requirements established by the states are only inevitable where hunters and shooters don't stand up and ask for good scientific evidence as to why the changes are necessary. Pressure on politicians appears to be working quite well here.

I'll try to shed a bit of personal insight - I own 8 shotguns and I shoot all of them. None are safe queens and none are collectibles that don't go out in the rain. They range from a Victor Sarasqueta to an Arrizabalaga in price with Merkels and AyA in between. I have been watching the markets closely for a year or so with the possible intent of adding one more gun and find that a quality gun in the sub-40K range is tough to find and prices are flexible only when there's a problem (however slight) with the gun.

This mirrors exactly what's going on in other discretionary markets. I had two pieces of art that I wanted to sell and for the past year or so had a lot of bottom-feeders make ludicrous offers with the same general argument that I was better off with a small amount of money than none. I don't need a bottom-feeder telling me what "I'm better off" with and they might have been more successful had they simply said they can't afford to pay my price.

The Walmart philosophy works in Walmart but not necessarily in other areas.

Now, of course, if the economy totally tanks and people start going hungry then the situation changes (maybe) but even in the darkest days of the Great Depression luxury goods were selling well.

Whenever dealers in higher-end stuff sell something they encounter a difficulty in replacing it with a similar-value item for inventory. Sometimes it isn't possible and then their inventory quality or quantity falls and the sort of client they try to attract (i.e. people with money) are less likely to call upon them. A dealer's inventory is his public face and carrying a good inventory is just another cost of doing business.

Please let me respectfully disagree with this commentary. Luxury goods are selling very briskly indeed. Tiffany stock has gone up; they had one of their best quarters; Louis Vuitton stuff is selling; high-end shops is NY, London and other cities are jammed. Yacht builders are booked up years in advance.

Oddly enough, whenever I visit the London gunmakers they have young men looking over (and buying) their doubles.

I have someone in my family that deals in collector auto's. His view over the past 5 years:
High-end stuff is still being bought and sold. It's the mid-tier, to lower-end stuff that isn't moving.
These are autos that Joe Middle Class auto enthusiast buys and sells. The rich, high-end guys are not hurting.
Seems like the same can be said for the gun market.
On another note, a big box store in my area has had a fine condition European 16 gauge behind the glass for close to 5 years.
Every time I'm in that store, I make a point to check to see if the gun is still there and to see if they've adjusted the price on it.
Yes, it's still there, no they haven't adjusted the price. IMO, asking price does not reflect reality (even 5 years ago)
but I don't think this retailer is concerned with real world pricing.
Apparently they don't need to move this piece of inventory real badly and are willing to sit and wait till
the right pigeon comes along.
Most all of the big box stores do this with used guns. Drives me nuts.

I think if you look at Cabela's inventory, you can find quite a few guns on which they've dropped prices. Scheel's used to have (may still have) a policy of adjusting prices on used guns after a set period of time I believe. I think it might have been a year. And even if the sticker price has not been adjusted, I think some dealers will be more open to a lower offer on a gun they've had some time than on one they just acquired.

Larry,
BY ALL MEANS you should use steel loads in your doubles. There will then be that many fewer good guns on the market. HA,HA!
You can believe what you want to Larry, but, none of my doubles needs to get steel shot run in it at this time. Key words being "at this time".

But, ask yourself if you know of a younger than 30 year old hunter ( I doubt it). And, then ask yourself what was the last gun that hunter bought.
I ran into "Kutter" (posts here) one time in the grouse woods up here, and I think he had a double-I had my Darne, and the retired super model along. But, I don't see people with doubles, as a rule of thumb.

Best,
Ted

Please LORD. Don't make use shoot anything but lead in our doubles or any other gun for that matter for upland hunting. Please, please please!!

I will not only second that but I refuse to shoot anything but lead for upland. When they mandated steel shot for waterfowl I quit waterfowling. If they mandate steel for upland I own enough land that I can hunt my property the way I damn well please.

Corkdecoy,In the early 1970,s I was a frequent visitor to William Powell,s shop on Carrs Lane in Birmingham.As a result I had some interesting discussions with Mr Powell Senior[Father of Peter]. On one such visit I was shown a 12g Purdey hammer gun with Whitworth steel barrels, price 95 pounds,by comparison a 12G AYA #2 cost 106 pounds.Mr Powell,s comment;"Best British hammer guns are the most undervalued antique in Britain today!"We are aware,or should be, that Mr Powell was absolutely correct in his assessment! [Sorry to say I did not purchase the Purdey!]
In my opinion, the same is true today for Best British box locks provided that they are in origional condition, in particular none ejectors.Now could be the time to consider buying such guns for sport or investment.

Thanks Roy for that advice. That is my goal and eventually I will find one just as you describe!

Ted--You're missing my message. Those of us not afraid to stand up and ask for the "good science" behind any requirements for steel on upland game are WINNING. That being said, there's no problem shooting steel of sizes suitable for upland birds in any gun proofed for modern American loads and choked no tighter than mod. The CIP regs get quite specific about what steel (velocity and shot size) should be shot through guns from their countries, including those proofed to the lower (than American) CIP standard. Their guidance is quite conservative.

Right on one of these forums--maybe not this one, can't recall for sure--a father was reporting on a teenage son who had "passed muster" with a sxs and was going to shoot one in an upcoming sxs event. If you go over to Upland Journal, you will find some young doublegun enthusiasts, including at least one who's still an undergraduate in college. And frankly, most of us gravitated to sxs after starting off with something else--the change often coming when we reached the stage of having a greater interest in how we bag birds, rather than how many we bag. Much of the choice of gun is also related to economics, and you can buy a much higher quality auto, pump, or OU for less than you'd pay for the same quality sxs--especially if you're talking new.

Final question, Ted: How many sxs only events did you know of, say 20 years ago? How many are there now? Let's see, just the big ones: Vintager, Southern, Northeast, UP Classic. I know of other somewhat smaller ones in MT, MN, WI . . . and I'm sure other guys here could add even more to the list. Nothing to rival Cowboy Action Shooting (which also has a tie-in to the sxs revival), but it's a real trend that does not seem to be disappearing or diminishing.

You're missing MY message, Larry-the guys at those events have a pretty good shok of gray hair, if you bother to look.
Every state you mentioned, to a one, sold fewer hunting licenses, of any type, than they did 10 years ago. Typically, a lot fewer. Vintagers fees don't support the DNR.
I can't even say I know any kids who pursue hunting from my group of friends. I have hopes for one, but, it hasn't happened yet.
Not sure who will be hunting in 30 seasons, but, you can bet there will be fewer of them.
And, fewer doubles, too.

Best,
Ted

Best,
Ted

My 3 children shoot doubles, but no British boxlocks. They shoot LC Smiths.

On a slightly different twist to this, I bought two Spanish boxlocks via Britain in the last year for very little money. An AYA and an Uggie. I wasn't looking, but the prices were irresistible. Both were set up for the British market, (English stocks, no sling swivels, light).

It seems to me the market for low-end guns, (<1k), is awash with deals.

Kind'a like the mail order bride business...

"Collectible" guns are still selling well -- in the case of British guns, say, small bores, big bores and original-condition best guns from the very best London makers. These are investment grade guns.

I think there is a glut of ordinary 12-ga guns (bog-standard boxlocks, well-used sidelocks, Spanish guns, production O/Us, etc.) on the market, and for them it is indeed a buyers market.

Anecdotally, the market appears well saturated: at the side-by-side shows I see the same folks every year, only fewer of them and older with each passing year. I would suggest bird hunting -- which would drive the game-gun market -- is also facing major problems -- bobwhites are essentially recreationally extinct in the Southeast, quail pops are crashing in Texas, the Midwest has got pheasant problems in some states, the Northeast is more crowded with houses in old coverts every year, the list goes sadly on. The few young folks I see coming into shooting, in this neck of the woods anyhow, are duck hunters and they all to a man use modern autoloaders, which are very very good. (Does anyone know of states where resident small-game license sales are increasing?)

To get back to the original question, there are plenty of bargains to be had -- but you may need to bargain for them.

No question upland game hunting is in trouble in quite a few places. Hunting as a whole, however, isn't really. More of a case of a transition to deer and turkey hunting. But if you want to see hunting that's in trouble compared to the past, look at the number of people who hunt rabbits and squirrels. Serious decline there.

One thing that's happened is that upland hunters have become significantly more mobile. Ever since 2002, for example, there have been more nonresident pheasant hunters in SD than residents--even though resident pheasant hunter numbers have not changed much in the last 25 years. Back in the late 50's-early 60's, when even more pheasants were being killed in SD than they are today, there were only half as many nonresident pheasant hunters. And there were more pheasant hunters in SD, total, in 2008 than there had been in any year since 1963. So in some cases, hunters are compensating for a lack of local birds by traveling to where there are birds. Unfortunately, that does not work well in the case of bobwhites in recent years, because there just haven't been very many anywhere.

As for not seeing young hunters . . . Ted, maybe you ought to volunteer as a hunter education instructor. We taught 3 classes a year at the local Izaak Walton facility in Story County when I lived in Iowa. A class numbering in the 40's was small. And ours were not the only classes in the area.

Sadly, hunter education is probably the single most effective driver of the trends and possible outcomes identified by Ted Schefelbein. To suggest he volunteer to teach one is vicious irony.

If someone doesn’t take the ridiculous hunter’s education class as a youth it is pretty much guaranteed they will never ever be a hunter (or become consumers of hunting supplies such as SxS box locks). Plenty of people have discretionary income to spend on hobbies. Hunter’s safety is very effective in directing their money toward other pastimes.

I have plenty of 20 and 30 something friends and coworkers who have shown an interest in trying hunting. When they discover they can’t buy a license because they didn’t take a silly course for middle school kids it generally ends right there.

Go ahead and jump down my throat over calling hunter ed. ridiculous. Any curriculum with a 100% pass rate is suspect. It is mainly gate keeping in our regulation happy society and a perversion of the right to hunt (if there is such a right, every right seems to be a privilege now day). I suspect a good percentage of grey hairs don’t mind gate keeping the sport.

Ryan, I'm as Libertarian as they come, but the hunter's safety class idea was accepted long ago by the hunters themselves as a way of saving the sport.

The accident rate was unacceptable to the point that worse legislation was inevitable unless positive steps were taken to make things safer.

Firearm related hunting accidents have plummeted as a result. Not just been reduced, but nearly eliminated. It's been a huge success.

A person unwilling to take a class to learn about something he has virtually no knowledge of is perhaps better off not becoming a participant in a sport where his actions could well effect the future freedoms of others.

I’m agreeable that people should wish to be knowledgeable in activities they participate in but this putting the cart before the horse. Usually folks don’t dive head long into a new hobby. They try it a few times and see if it is for them. Hunter’s safety is a barrier to even trying. I can’t think of many other leisure pursuits which require training before you can even try. No wonder there are fewer hunting license sales.

Whatever the safety merits, hunter’s safety does have the unintended consequence of excluding huge numbers of people from trying hunting. In some instances this is probably good. In the case of a 30 something professional introduced to sporting clays at a corporate outing who would now like to have a go at some doves…I don’t think so.

Many leisure activities are much more dangerous than hunting and we don’t require mandatory training. I guess because firearms are involved so we lose perspective and roll over.

Maybe I'm missing something here. Is there some reason an adult can't take a hunter safety course and therefore qualify to buy a license?
Jim

I hunt a military base that requires a hunter safety certificate no matter what your age is.

I think the decline in hunter interest by our youth is because most are first exposed to big game hunting such as deer or turkey from a stand/blind and truthfully both are quite boring. Today's parent plops his kid in a deer stand or turkey blind with a da'coy spread and basically gives his kid a deer or turkey...where's the sport or chase that keeps ones interest ?

I've always thought small game hunting should be a required apprenticeship for anyone wanting to big game hunt.

I started squirrel/rabbit hunting before I was 10 and now I'm 56 and have never lost interest in hunting.

I respect your viewpoint Ryan, but I don't agree.

Remember the ultralight aircraft craze from the 80's?

The appeal to some was that no flight training or license was required. Seriously.

Industry precautions were not effective and many, many people exercised their right to kill themselves as they saw fit.

All to avoid the inconvenience of paying for a few hours of instruction from a qualified instructor.

Naturally, the Feds stepped in and we now have a whole host of nice regulations where none existed before.

Tell me how we legislate common sense.

Note that kids today get no instruction in safe firearms handling unless they happen to be lucky enough to be born into a situation that promotes it. It's the guys who at "30 something" want to take up shooting or hunting that most need guidance.

I'm for it. You'll be amazed at what you see at the target range after a new guy takes his Benelli out of the box.

Not in my state. In ND I was grandfathered in because I was born before 1960 but I took the course anyway because I like to big game hunt (elk) in other states that require it. The class I was in was mostly adults in there for the same reason as me. Hell we were older than the instructor which made him feel a little foolish.

Ryan, we got quite a few adults in our courses. Some who were already hunters, but needed th course to qualify for a nonres license in some other states. Some single moms with their kids. Some dads who were grandfathered like JRB but took the class with their kids anyhow.

No denying what's happened to the accident rate since the courses have been required. Hunting is somewhat unique as a hobby, in that there's a fair potential to harm not only yourself but someone else if you aren't safe. The hunter safety requirement also coincided pretty closely with the end of the military draft, which meant far fewer Americans were subjected to firearms training and gun safety in the military.

Lots of reasons for a decline in interest in hunting (although overall numbers of hunters are hanging fairly stable, at around 15 million): Far fewer rural families, where guns are often part of growing up. Far more competing activities. And a far greater degree of PC-ness (which does not like hunting) in the general population. But programs like BOW (Becoming an Outdoors Woman) and various mentoring efforts through the conservation groups like PF, DU, RGS, Izaak Walton League are all helping. And the Scholastic Clay Target Program likely has more school-age kids shooting shotguns competitively than we've ever seen. Both clubs where I shot in Iowa were the "home fields" for several squads each, both high school and college.

I've been a shooter for a long time, but never a hunter.
finally a friend said "let's go hunt birds at this preserve" (no license needed)

OH my, that as awesome.

so, the wife and I signed up for hunter safety. 2 days? are you kidding me? and we were by far the oldest 12 year olds in the class.

the class was GREAT. I learned a ton, things I never knew or even thought about. (the shooting part was dumb, but whatever, just do it their way for one weekend).

the problem isn't the class. The problem is that people don't know what to do. And without someone to show them the first time. (usually done by family when young, unless no dad, anti-parents,whatever). If you know someone, offer to take them. (works for both hunting and shooting).

People need a guide the first time. Let people share in your joy.

I didn't mind taking the class and I certainly wasn't offended by doing it. In fact it was kind of fun going back to my old high school although I left my spitball shooter and rubber band slingshot at home.

I volunteered teaching at gun safety classes for many years, Larry. The classes were mostly full of kids going duck or deer hunting. I took the class myself (at my local elementary school, horror of horrors) in about 1972.
The thing it taught me was that my father had already done a hell of a job instructing me, and, most of the other kids folks, hadn't. The state wasn't going to do the job my father had done, but, for all those other kids, it was way better than nothing.
I've had my share of nervous mothers and fathers show up at the required shooting sessions, and the great majority have been won over. I couldn't take every kid hunting, but, plenty have stomped through my covers, using one of my loaners, and I have been enriched for the effort.
I had one, honest-to-goodness, psychopathic mother show up during a class when her ex-husband tried to get the kid through the course on the sly. Never saw the kid, or, thankfully, her, again. Hope he isn't in a jail cell somewhere.
A local radio personality describes what we are dealing with as "The Mystery", the all out effort to dismantle the America, and it's pastimes and recreation, we knew and enjoyed as kids.
With the possible exception of deer and turkey hunting, this effort has been frighteningly successful, I'm afraid.
I see fewer people hunting, a bad thing, that isn't all bad. The pooch and I have the woods to ourselves, mostly.

Best,
Ted

We are already way off track from English box locks so I will leave it alone after this.

Unfortunately we have a licensing system which discourages new hunters. If Dad didn’t sign Junior up for hunter’s safety in middle school Junior will likely never hunt. The rub is only a hunter knows to sign his kid up. This is not at all good.

Hunting is doomed when it becomes and exclusively inherited custom where new hunters only come from old hunters. Attrition naturally pulls many away from hunting (which is fine). Some outside replacements are called for. Conservation and shooting programs are all well and good but this is working at the fringes. I would prefer we cast a wider net.

Our licensing system discourages replacement hunters because they might have an accident. Unintended consequences of a safety obsessed culture. It won’t get better.

This has depressed me. I need a drink or something.

I'll have one with you.

To good shooting, and safe hunting.

No, our licensing system discourages replacement of the hunter pop because of ridiculous license and stamp fees. It's better to be embarrassed by being told to keep your muzzle, trigger, and your two big left feet in control than live with an AD death or incapacitation. The NRA hunter safety courses and the old American Rifleman magazine were about the best things about the NRA before the currect crop of scenery chewers got hold of it.

jack

Yeah it's getting off the original topic but I feel it has steered to something equally important. I live in a very rural area where most kids have been around firearms but I still have had the opportunity to take a few under priveledged kids under my wing. One kid in particular will always stand out in my mind. This poor kid was only 12 years old when his father had both kidneys fail so he was on dialysis. Somehow with all of his Dad's medical bills the parents afforded a little .410 for the kid. I took him out to my range and started pitching arial targets. The kid was a horrible shot until I figured out that he didn't lead enough. Using my fingers I showed him about an inch and told him if it was going up at that range to shoot that much farther up. Same with side shots. I'll never forget the grin on the kids face when he busted his first target. The kid eventually went to college and took up law enforcement where he outshot all of his classmates. I've even pitched rolling hubcaps on the ground for kids to shoot. I call that one the running rabbit game to kids. I'll do almost anything for a kid who wants to learn shooting.

I have been shopping for a Spanish sxs and was amazaed at the relative pricing between the Spanish guns on the UK market and here. Even after factoring in exchange rates, importation fees, etc., there is a 20%+ discount for the same gun selling in the UK vs. in the US. Anyone looking for a reasonably priced Spanish sxs should check out the UK market. The only downside is a bit of a what to get the gun into the US.

It struck me as odd that the Brits discount these guns so much, given that many of the UK makers are importing Spanish guns under their their own labels now.

And, ALL of these classes are conducted using bargain priced British Box locks! (NE of course)

Actually, most states allow "mentored" hunting for kids too young to qualify for the hunter safety course. In fact, there's a move afoot--promoted by NSSF and maybe NRA as well--to make sure that can happen in all states. The hunter safety course is not supposed to take the place of going out with dad, older brother, uncle, whomever when you're 9 or 10. But we also have to face facts: if all the kids who learned from fathers etc had turned into safe hunters, we probably never would have had a need for hunter education. Some were excellent teachers, some were pretty lousy teachers.

For the most part, new hunters have always come from old hunters. Inherited tradition. Actually, in terms of hunting and shooting, we're doing a better job of recruiting "outsiders" now than we used to. BOW for the women, a group that includes a lot of single moms; SCTP to get the school kids interested in shotgun shooting. Of course those are offset by the increased urbanization of our society, distancing people from the land where their food is grown and their meat is either raised or can be hunted, and by a much smaller military which used to be a good introduction to guns for those who hadn't grown up around them.

In Pennsylvania there are a lot of exemptions from taking the hunter safety/firearm course. I asked a Game Warden why and he said that the State’s legislature assumed that people who were from the older generations were trained in firearm safety by their Father and the State could not do a better job.

As a side note we were up shooting at the State’s public trap range and I saw a Father roughly grab his son under his arm, and man did he ever grab him, and told him if he sweeps the line one more time with his barrel he’s going back to the car and he is going to take him back to his mother.
There are still some Fathers out there, fewer and fewer but still some out there.

I've never shot trap but "sweeping the line" must be a serious offense.???

Yes, it's considered unsporting to point your gun open or closed at other shooters. It should be second nature to not do that.

My favorites are the guys (many who have considerable experience and who should know better) who take a gun out of a rack, sweep it down right through me, and then open it.

How hard is it to lever a gun open while it's still pointing up and then maybe look around before pointing the barrels down so as not to present those two big holes to another's gaze.

This is just plain good manners, and is the first thing a new shooter should learn before all else.

By the look of pain on his young face after his Father grabbed him.....He learned it!!

p.s. Sorry guys I should have added that it was a pump he was incorrectly pointing.