Hi guys,

I've seen both. 1) CCH with the rest of the actiong and 2) taken out CCH then put back in.

As the Grants have removable pins I'm tampted to take the pun out. Put the plug (with engraving) back on and then Anneal and CCH without the pin itself in...then put back in afterwards.

I presume it would have been CCH the first time around with the rest of it....





Open to opinions....informed of course..

T

Since the pin has a shoulder on it, I would put both the pin and the cap in place during CCH (anneal everything)....for the original look and set........


Cheers,

Thanks Doug. That's what I thought.

I agree with Doug that you should have them both in place when you anneal and re-case the action. The outer pin you can always anneal and nitre if you dont like the cased look. The actual hinge pin is somewhat of a debate. I like to think most of them are made of the same steel as the action and will case harden just fine. This gives you a good treated wear surface for the barrel hook to ride on, as long as its not overly hardened compared to the barrel hook. I know some people dont case them or anneal them afterwards to a similar hardness as the barrel hook. Might not be a bad idea for you should check the hardness before annealing and see if its already soft like the barrel or if its got a file hard skin to it.

Yeah I think you are right most of them were annealed and hardened. It's too late...the whole lot is in the kiln annealing. Thanks to those who replied.

T

I thought cross pins are usually pulled during CC hardening, blued, and then fitted back in place after the process is completed?

From what I understood, if a cross pin is removable, you want it to take the wear (instead of the lump). CC hardening it would not allow this to happen.

OWD

Hi, after more research elsewhere, and I'll confirm with my friends at Price street tomorrow they were left in. The barrel hook is supposed to wear hence the need for tig welding the hook when they go loose.

I've never seen one blued!

Sorry obsessed but I think you might be wrong on this one having researched a bit further.

Cheers
T

NO......on quality guns the hinge pins are always hardened so they are slick and cannot gall.....the barrel hook turns, not the hinge pin.......the barrel hook is the wear item and takes what minimal wear there is, provided it is fitted properly.......and should adjustment be required, the barrel hook is the part made of a softer steel and is usually welded and filed to fit...........which is the proper way....!.....

By increasing the size of a replacement hinge pin to compensate for wear and slop, you are just slowly ruining the barrel hook and monobloc......which needs to be repaired.......

People put too much grease on the hinge pin, which ends up collecting dirt and powder and makes a real nice grinding wheel.........then they wonder why the hooks wear out............duh..........

BTW.....it is called a barrel hook, not a lump.......

Removeable hige pin made from high carbon steel and aditional CCH could destroy it.

Ha - OK. Checked on this. I was somewhat wrong...

What I was told is pretty complicated and going into it all will take too much time and brainpower right now.

But a quick summary:

Short cross pins (Boss, Grants, H&H-style sidelocks, etc) are typically CChardened in place. This is done to protect the action. But these pins should be annealed or replaced afterwards. Geno is right - unlike the action, these pins are made from high carbon steel and CCH can make them exceptionally brittle. If they are not addressed, they can shatter when the gun is fired.

Purdeys have long pins. These pins are not left in place or CChardened. They are blued, just like the pins on most hammerguns.

And the pin is supposed to take the wear. The HOOK cannot be replaced, so you want to do minimal work on it when you put the gun back on the face.

I think that's it.


OWD

BTW: welding up the hook is not the proper way to put a quality double back on the face. Replacing the hinge pin is. Welding is how you deal with fixed cross pins, or a shortcut.

Going to check with the experts in Birmingham tomorrow and come back to you. I'm going to ask St Ledgers too and they will give me the difinitive answer. I've heard both. I've seen only hardenend.

T

Not going to get into the hook debate..I've seen how it's done here and most people reface the hook. Period.

T

Ok. I'm anxious to learn more.

Good to "debate" with you. I enjoy it.

Hope you're feeling well, btw.

OWD

The barrel hook is softer than the hardened hinge pin, the barrel hook will wear long before the hinge pins.........so to replace hinge pins will NOT put a worn gun back on face......

The barrel hook remains worn because it is softer and the gun will not be back on face until the barrel hook is EITHER replaced or welded up........and that's the way it is done period...........around the world, maybe not in Maine, but everywhere else I know of...........

You can put five or six new hinge pins in and still be shooting a loose lump............!.........

OWD, definately good debate, and taken in good spirit. I'm feeling well at the moment and hobbling around and looking forward to my duck season start Thursday...I have ducks all over here on the farm! Need to finish the Grants /wink.

PA24. You got it old man...it's great to debate though. Anyway I'll check with the "pros" tomorrow.

T

I'm a rank amateur on this subject but I've had guns put back on face using both methods. Regardless of which method is used the hook still needs to be refit to the pin by filing. Replacing the pin can be darned complicated and expensive, especially if new engraving is involved. So, if the pin isn't worn out of round I prefer working on the hook.

Which leads me to mention that refitting the hook is also a very time consuming job to be done properly. "Cheap" is not in its vocabulary. I've seen a number of jobs done that the hook doesn't make over 10% contact with the pin. Oh, they're tight but after a flat of shells they're loose as ever. If buying and you suspect the quality of the work put some black on the hook and check the contact.

"BTW: welding up the hook is not the proper way to put a quality double back on the face. Replacing the hinge pin is. Welding is how you deal with fixed cross pins, or a shortcut."

I'm no expert on this, but when I asked Holland and Holland about replacing the removable pin in my H&H Dominion grade, they said it isn't done any more that way. The sent me to their repair contact in Lousiana, Ken Eversole, I think, who laser welded the hook. As near perfect a job as I've ever seen. It cost me about $700.

That's it Vol

T

Bah!

OWD

I think OWD just sits around and reads out dated books, no real world experience.........?

It hasn't been done that way since before OWD was born........!..........

Ken Eversull put a 20 b Purdey back 'on face' for me. He was recommended by David Trevallion. It was minimally 'off face'....and I didn't even know it as he was working on the trigger, but he laser welded the hook. Got it back and it is a lot tighter. Ken Eversull is a pro from everything I have heard. He also told me I would never be able to shoot this gun 'off face' in my lifetime...and I'm 52 yo.

You have had it done both ways.....?

If you had someone put in a new hinge pin, there is no need to file the worn barrel hook UNLESS you want more slop...........because the gun will still be loose...... you must first weld the barrel hook requiring the new fit......since most competent smiths laser or tig weld the hook, the hinge pin is left as it is..........therefore replacing the hinge pin would be a waste of time..............

Cheers,

I guess this is a matter of opinion. I've taken a number of hinge pins out of British guns and in no case were they particularly hard steel and all showed wear. The obvious reason that H&H referred Vol to Eversole is because it's too time consuming to fit a new pin and clients balk at the cost. With the advent of Tig and laser welding just refacing the hook and dressing down to fit the existing pin has become the "new" way. But it's not the best way. In a perfect world the surfaces of hook and pin would both be finished to a high polish and mate perfectly across the full width. The only way to get there is to fit a new pin and take the time making sure that the bearing surfaces of the pin fit tightly into the frame. That means the circumference of the pin head must fit tight and the thread have zero slop, in short it must be as near a perfect fit as possible. And you still have to make it a few thousands over to allow for final polishing. All this before you even start on the hook. A person picking up a new shotgun doesn't have a clue how many cycles of opening, closing and firing it will take before getting loose. It depends on the quality of unseen work. But when it does get loose, as surely it will, just getting the hook resurfaced and refitting it to a worn pin may be perfectly acceptable, most particularly if it's not your gun. But just because H&H says"do it" doesn't mean that's the best way to do it.
nial

PA24, surely you know that a new pin will be made bigger than the worn one. What kind of an idiot would make it the same size. In the past it was not uncommon for high end guns to come with a few sets of slightly bigger hinge pins in a little compartment of the gun case. If you are serious and not just trying to get a rise, I suspect you don't know as much about break open guns as you think you do.
nial

Nial:
Pins seldom wear because they are harder than the soft steel barrel hooks, unless the gun is full of dirt loaded grease or mis-use, but extra screw in pins with shoulders were supplied with some guns a long time ago........with your experience you surely know there were so many problems trying to fit these pins by shade tree smiths and non-mechanical gun owners, with little things like rust, removing nice engraved covers etc..........and surely you know that an oversize thru pin won't fit in an exact machined thru hole......(long cross side to side pins).....?.........After all, we don't need to know very much, thank heavens, because we have you here to tell us everything..............

**See the thread "Welding Up Hook On Barrels"....9-20-08.....this board.....for those of you that are 'really' interested......comments from smiths, welders, how they do it in Italy, England and in the trade everywhere, check it out..........

OR:

**"Re-jointing actions by Ken Eversull".....7-21-09......this board.............

Best,

Why do threads end up like this? I usually resort to asking the experts here. Of course that'll be countered by the "experts there". So, I've mad my decision it's going to be put through with the rest of the action? Why? Here is the rationale from Price street, agree or not is up to you...but I'm going with 250 years of heritage ok? :-)

"Usually the hinge pins are kept in. Especially on guns that rely on the hinge pin for structural formation such as some from Webley and Scott and W.C Scott for example. Also, keeping them means that the whole unit is cased and there is little room for movement, the stronger the structure the less likely of problems. The plug (with engraving) is also coloured. The notion of having this nitre blued or blued is false on English guns, it's an after "bake" second rate solution".

That's it

T

PS I asked about this constant "brittle as glass" notion and I was confronted with a rolling of the eyes looking to the heavens.

Leaving the pin in makes perfect sense to me. Go for it!

Why not make a new JOINT pin ,so when you come to free and fit after rehardning you have something to black down and pull up?

Thanks for setting things straight Tony with your visit to Price St.....for all the experts 'over here' to see........

Cheers mate,

It has been my experience with CC Hardeners that they like for the hinge pin to remain in as your CC Hardener has confirmed. My experience also has been that the pins are a devil to remove from the action after re hardening. Takes the largest turn screw you have in your gunmakers brace and then some.

The next Holland style action I have re hardened, I am going to make a slave hinge pin to use for the process and for throw away afterwards. Small actions such as a round body back lock hammergun action are just best to leave the original pin in the action, re hard, and if in the future a re jointing is needed you can weld up the hook.

Do you have a lathe where you can make such a slave pin?

Regards;
BV

I don't have a lathe.

T

Its long and tedious, but Jack Rowe's 4 hr DVD from Midway everyone can learn a lot from. He put a hammer gun back on face making a new hinge pin and reworking the hook. The old fart did a lot of things in that video I never imagined he could STILL do. Best 14.99 I've spent in a long while

Some folks here should contact Jack and tell him he's doing it wrong.

Didn't he learn anything after all those years in Birmingham?

Hahaha.

OWD

HaHaaa. Someone ought to contact Ken Eversull and tell him he's doing it wrong too, I mean all those years working for Fabbri, didn't HE learn anything? And while your at it...contact Paul Hodgins and tell him he's doing it wrong as well, didn't he learn anything in London? Or how about Del Whitman and Reto Beuhler, maybe they're doing it wrong too?? C'mon man, get real.
By the way....about a month ago, I had in my hands a Dickson RA that had been laser welded to tighten up the works and put it back on the face, the work was absolutely flawless, even with a jewelers loup in hand you could not tell the locking bolt, hook and forend iron had any work at all done to them. First class the whole way. Thats the way it should be done, first class. If Jack Rowe had been brought up with laser welding in his arsenal, you'd be damned sure he'd be using it. I'm having a Lancaster body action self-opener put back on the face right now, and it has gotten the laser treatment too, locking bolt, forend iron, and barrel hook, the works. There is now 99.9% contact on all bearing surfaces, when the gun left the factory in 1894, they couldn't have dreamed of getting that level of contact at ALL surfaces. Technology is a wonderful thing.

Dustin

Wrong? What's wrong, the replacing the hinge pin? The hardening? What? Let's be civil. I really hate this yes/no base level of communication.

I'll say it. People can do it anyway they like. I'm sharing my knowledge. I definately want to hear if people do it differently. That's why I asked my contacts. Let's not say wrong or right let's just say some do it my way some yours...period.

/sigh

T

If you ask for opinions ,you will get them in droves . Problem is they are opinions from a lot of people who have opinions ,but not actual knowledge. Sites like this are full of well meaning people ,I mean them no disrespect but some of the advice is based on what others have said or what they "believe" . This is not the same as practical /actual knowledge. You must also bare in mind the differing practices of the trades in different countries..OK do you leave the pin in or out? Depends on the gun ,whether you want to do a good job or a quick cheap do up.In this case I would make a new pin to be fitted after re-colouring slightly over size so to allow for any movement and to ensure the action is tight when finished. Leave the old pin in for hardening then throw it away.

Gunman. Of course you are right.

Huh? If you haven't noticed.....we are ALL right, all the time All you have to do is ask and you'll receive 100+ "right" answers, happens here everyday.

Dustin

Yup, lots' of talkers/readers and not so many do'ers................trying to share information here is like being a seal and trying to swim off the Gallapogos Islands or any other shark infested place................

Best,

Seems so. Maybe I should just come here once a week and read.

Tony: I don't know if you could just quit this forum cold turkey or not because you might have withdrawl symptoms. Look what happened to Chuck H when he was admitted to the ER with appendicitis. Even after IV Morphine he had to get his wireless out and get on line with the doublegunshop forum. Something like that could happen to you and besides those of us less knowledgeable than you would really miss your informative posts and threads! You better just go on because anything other might be too risky.

Heh cheers buzz that made me laugh.

Fusil-

I was referring to guns with screw-in hinge pins.

Dickson RA don't have screw-in hinge pins.

And Fabbri hasn't made a shotgun with a hinge pin for 30+ years.

hahaha

OWD

Tony, don't even consider for a moment cutting back on this forum. Your posts are one of the very few "must read" items that I see here. You are attempting work that most of us can only dream about and we are all the richer with your selfless sharing. Thanks!

Thanks Joe.

Re. hinge pins made from high carbon steel.
One gunmaker from Ferlach shared his experince for replacing hinge pins. He pushes out old hinge pin, then presses barrels to receiver and reams new hole with tool is a bit larger diameter, than old hinge pin. Then he cut the reamer tail and use this piece as new hinge pin.
As you know reamers made from HSS steel and this sreel is high carbon one.
I used this method several times and found it very easy and effective.

Huh? I though everyone in Europe sprayed the hook!?

Hahaha

BTW: I doublechecked on this with Purdey and Holland & Holland (London).

They both confirmed that replacing the pin was the proper way to go. They did not recommend welding or shimming the hook.


OWD

In several days I could make a photo of .500 BP Express where I replaced old hinge pin by mentioned above Ferlach method. The gun became so tight I need to apply a lot of forces to open and to close it and the gun needs to be worked up. Its not finished yet.

You guys back on this? Jees get a life. OWD. You should know better.

I'm not posting on this thread again. I'll never post speculative thoughts again also...because clearly...I can never be right.

T

Tony, sorry.

I wasn't fishing for you...

OWD

Hey mate, take it all in stride, we've beaten the subject to death before…… we agreed to disagree, read on

Best

CJ


http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=155355&page=1

Actually, since this seems all about opinion (and that's what's exasperating), you can never be wrong, too.

It isn't so much the debate about the bloody pin or hook I'm fascinated by that. It's the fact that my post about CCH and the pin has been hijacked to swerve it to something about tightening barrels back onto the face! That's what irritates me...and this whole kind of "hahaha" thing is irritating and puerile.

Other than that, I'm a happy bunny.

CJO, ah I see you have already been through that..

T

T, there are a lot of profi here and to hear your screaming about... something, sometimes is very boring. Could you calm down and listen more carefully and without hysterics and with more respect what other people talk. With all respect, Gennadi.

Gen, sod off.

Actually I mean it. Just go and hijack other peoples posts then. It's dull and I'm fed up with you and other people doing it frankly.

Calm as can be but just hate rudeness.

T