I've never hunted big game with a shotgun because I never thought I had the right tool. Does anyone have data or suggestions about slugs in vintage doubles? Is it ever acceptable? If yes, what are the features you look for in your vintage gun to attempt this?

Is there such a thing as a vintager pressure slug? Anyone load and regulate to do such a thing?

Again, I know nothing of slugs but was considering the RBL slug gun for large game where rifles are not permitted. I'd much rather use a vintage gun if I knew the caveats and considerations.

Well I've fired slugs thru a number of doubles and it's a hit or miss proposition. Seriously though, most SxS guns are lousy at it but now and again you'll find a winner. I once had a Beretta GR2 in 20 gauge that would put ordinary Foster type slugs in pretty near the same hole at 30 yards and exactly where it was aiming too.
I now have a Merkel 20 gauge that puts a slug right on the aiming point at 30 yards from the bottom barrel.
nial

As was said, it's really a hit or miss proposition In my experience, continental doubles are more likely to shoot slugs well than American doubles. Try the Brenneke standard IIRC it's loaded to 1050 bar.

I wouldn't use slugs in any gun originally proofed for 2 1/2" 1 1/8oz.

YMMV

I second that, Mr Thayer

Eley offered 380 grain 'Anglia' slug with Vo 1450fps and muzzle energy of 1772ft/lb. Not sure what they use now but proly Brenneke slugs. I have some reduced velocity factory classic Brenneke slugs but have not tried any and sold all my sxs guns. If I were to roll some lower pressure slugs for ole' "for balle" double I suspect 'Aero-slug' would be at the top of my slug component list.

Sellier & Bellot do make a 12 bore Brenneke slug round for 2 1/2" (65mm.) chambers. I got a load of them for someone to try out in a Holland & Holland Paradox. We got the same accuracy with them as with the grossly expensive H&H Paradox ammunition. They were intended for wild boar shooting in Europe. Lagopus.....

Lagopus,

Would that shell be okay with Damascus barrels? With what choke? Would the gun have to say it is safe for buck and ball?

Very interested to know more.

Rookhawk, I have a box in front of me now. They come in packs of five and with a 32gram (1 1/8th. ounce) Brenneke slug. They have the CIP mark which is the European proof acceptance mark to show that they do not exceed pressures for the gun for which they are intended; in this case any 12 bore gun with minimum 2 1/2" chambers that is 'in proof' and nitro proofed. Our rules of proof here in the U.K. and most of Europe don't distinguish between damascus and steel barrels provided that they are suitably proofed. There is no warning on the pack concerning choke constriction. I believe that the fins on the Brenneke slug are designed to pass through full choke anyway.

If you do manage to source some and order them make sure that they are the ones for 2 1/2" chambers as I believe that they make them for 2 3/4" as well. I have some 16 bore Brenneke slug loads by RWS and have them in both chamber lengths that I used in a drilling. Lagopus.....

Rookhawk, is your damascus gun OK with modern shotshells in 2 1/2" legth ? best Mike

Yes, you can.
in the former USSR most of the big game was shot with slugs from double guns (repeaters being a rarity, and rifles all but banned).
Most of folks had to use the same gun for birds, big game, whatever.
Lessons learned:
- accuracy is relative. Putting your shots in a 12 inch circle at 35 meters will bring you to the vitals of any big-game animal up to 50 meters, and shots over that are unrealistic.
- most doubles can do better than that. 6-inch circles are common, and 4-inchers can hardly be improved upon further.
- pattern the shotgun with slugs just like you would with a rifle. Shoot all available slugs to find what the gun likes, then vary the powder load (staying within safe limits, of course) up and down until you arrive at best groups.
- your biggest fear is the ring bulge in the choke area. some barrels just aren't made to be used with slugs. It mostly concerns thin-walled tightly-choked guns. DDR-made Merkel O/Us were a special pain in this respect
- for similar reason, don't shoot slugs in a gun that you value for its long-range patterns. Looks like slugs wear out choke area very quickly.
- if you have to shoot a slug from a tighter-than-tight gun, one tip is to use underbore Brenneke, say, 16-gauge slug in a 12-gauge gun. To have the slug centered, place it in a plastic shot cup.
- surprisingly, a chamber burst with slugs is unlikely, even with overbore powder load (some chaps here used to load a Brenneke with 1 1/2 to 2 times the max powder charge - did you know that USSR boys were raised on pretty suicidal role models? - but the guns didn't blow).
- however, your second biggest fear should be a loose action. A gun shot with slugs will shoot itself loose noticably faster than the one used with shot loads of the same weight with the same powder charge.

all things being equal:
- the shorter the barrels, the better
- the heavier the barrels, the better

Constriction of the barrels is the most controvercial issue. - the less constriction, the better, however, you generally want some constriction in the gun, IC or light modified. Doubles defy rules, and sometimes you'll get a light ling-barreled full-choked one put all bullets in the same hole.

An person experienced in shadow-ring test for gun barrels can tell if a gun is going to shoot well with slugs. The critical area to look at is the forcing cone, you don't want even a hint that it joins the barrel at an angle.

If you're considering buying an inexpensive vintage sbs to shoot slugs from, take a look at Baikal Izh 54. They are proven slugsters here. Izh 12 o/u works even better individually, but getting both barrels to shoot to the same POI is harder.

Finding the right slug is another story.

Overall I'd agree with Alexsey(H-D) except point that slugs wear the chokes. I shot mooses, bears and boars from smooth bore double gun and big issue in this case is barrels regulation. You can't regulate barrels yourself, but everybody can choose the right double with minimum cross at aprx. 50 yards. And its very important the POI from the first barrel you shoot, under or left or whatever. If the gun shoot well, but front sight doesn't match, replace it to right one, thin and better something like TruGlo. Install rear sight, if needed.
12G double gun loaded with heavy Brenneke slug or such is very effective spopper and vital at close distance up to 25 yards, if you going to shoot dangerous animals.

I'm not sure that slugs exactly wear the chokes, but Geno, don't you know of cases when a good long-range gun stopped delivering effective long-range patterns after being shot with slugs? I don't know what causes that, wear in choked, micro bulge, or something else, but it does happen to some guns.

Never heard about any problems in real. Sounds like 'just another grand-pa story' to me. Same with 'micro bulge'. Looks like you collect stories from guns.ru

It is great to hear from guys like Geno and Humpty Dumpty who "have been there and done that".

Questions:

1. About how many slug loads might need to be fired before negative effects are seen on long-range patterns? What kinds of negative effects have been noted? (E.g., reduction in pattern density and/or reduction in pattern evenness.) What kinds of slugs seem to be the worst offenders?

2. Has anyone actually measured the wear or damage that might result from firing slugs in choked d/b barrels. How might these effects compare to, say, firing a lot of buckshot loads?

3. I have heard it alleged that the soldering between barrels can be adversely affected by shooting slugs. Has this been noted?

4. Have either Geno or Humpty Dumpty ever tried choke-appropriate patched [?] round balls?

About 60 yrs. ago a hunter in our group used a shotgun with the Foster type slug. Forget the model no. but it was a Savage with a 28" full choked barrel. It would keep 5 slugs within the 8 ring of a 25 yard pistol target. It was the only long gun the fellow owned and was an excellent waterfowl hunter too. I don't believe slugs effected the choke in his barrel at all. In those shot charges were not in a cup, so as with slugs it was lead going down a steel barrel.

I never heard of such damage.

1. Have to admit I've never been there personally. I've heard people, real people, who have no reason to disinform, complain about the problem, and other people, who witnessed it, confirm the cases. The cases involve tightly choked guns, slugs fired without checking out if they fit the chokes, and the loss of efficiency happened with a very limited number of shells fired, resulting in both density and evenness loss. The hunter would finish the bird season with the gun and everything's fine, then take the gun for its first big-game season, and everything's fine too, than come the next bird season and the hunter realizes he can't hit anything with the gun at long ranges any more. Might be something psychological, might be an old wives tale, wouldn't bet my bottom dollar on that, but the folks who taught me shotgunning warned me about this potential problem, and I'm passing the warning. Edit: the warning didn't imply that every choke will be damaged by any slug, just that it can happen if one is doesn't know what one is doing.

2. Not to my knowledge.

3. Me too, but the cases of barrells coming apart from firing slugs that I know of happened to the brands of guns that are notorious about ribs coming apart with anything harder than regular hunting use, so I'm not sure whether the culprit is shooting lots of shells or shooting lots of slugs.

4. Erm, yes, sort of. I loaded once a few of "old-timer" loads with a ball that would come through the full choke of my Izh54, paper hulls, felt&cardboard wads and black powder - it's a bother to get a 17.5 mm ball center in 20 mm hull, btw - but I didn't get to test-fire them for accuracy, and they ended up wasted during a plinking outing by my wife, busting up some outdated computer equipment So they worked, but I have no idea how well

Years ago I wanted to go deer hunting. I owned one gun: Stevens 16 ga. SxS, bored IC&Mod. I got some Remington foster-style slugs and "sighted-in" at 40 yards. Left barrel shot 12"low and 12"right. Right barrel shot12" low and 12" left. Good enough for me; just need to allow a little Kentucky windage.

I never found out how it worked: didn't know much about deer hunting! On the other hand, I learned a lot about deer and what not to do when hunting them.

Do you really believe that? Me not. When people talk about long distance shooting effectiveness I make a face, that I hear very carefully

Personally I try DO NOT shoot slugs through full chokes, anyway lead allow slug will be deformed through these chokes and accuracy will be poor. I prefer improved cylinder.

All cases with slugs I heard were associated with home made and reloded slugs. I could talk probably dozen of stories about human stupidity.

I believe I've never shoot round balls as using round balls at hunting is illegal here. Its dangerous, too much recochet.