Some of you must know...what is the going price to stock a sidelock these days. An AYA for example...Straight grip.

Depends a lot on the wood you select and the finish you want. I was looking at a nice SxS that had a ridiculously short stock and was quoted 6K for a re-stock in my choice of wood; oil finish.

I have restocked boxlocks myself but I wouldn't try a sidelock. Perhaps you can get an inletted blank for your AyA and then do the final fitting yourself.

I don't know if he is on here much, but Dennis Smith is a great stocker. He works out of Oregon and goes by, "The Stock Doctor." His work for me was superb and he was always generous with his time.

Rob.

Mike,
You can restock it yourself, I know you can. Perhaps as Gnomon mentioned, get an inletted blank and have at it. Go for it!
Steve

That sounds like one of those "what could possibly go wrong?" projects.

Hey Dave,
I've known Mike for about 50 years. He's great with wood and I've seen him do some beautiful stock work. I wouldn't be encouraging him to do it if I thought for even a minute that he wasn't up to the challenge.
Steve

I am in the middle of doing three LCS right now and I am not sure I want to see another for a long time.

bill

I would second Steve in Texas. I've seen some of Mike's work. A goo Alaskan winter project Mike.
Steve in Alaska

If you guys say he's up to the job, fair enough. I wasn't knocking his skills. I just know it would be one of those kinds of projects if I tried it, so I don't.

The question was asked..."How much to stock a side lock action gun?" In my shop $3640 plus the wood. Includes inletting, shaping, sanding, detailing, finishing to customers desired sheen, and checkering(standard factory pattern). This is a complete custom gunstocking job of the buttstock and forend.
Just for information sake.

I think the last quote I got on one, was north of 4 grand...put me out of the line....

It all depends on the wood but the range is going to be 4,000 - 6,000. There are plenty of considerations that will drive that price up. Call Dennis or Toby Leeds or others and start the educational portion of the process.

Why is it so expensive? Is it cost of wood primarily, too few good stockers or the time to do it?

King, I hesitated to get into this discussion but you asked the right question and deserve a reasonable answer - at least the best that I can come up with.

My base price for stocking a sidelock is $4200. That price means fitted properly to the metal, finished with a modified oil finish that you can see in the following photo and checkered in a standard point pattern appropriate to the gun. That price does not include the cost of the wood, a leather covered pad, a skeleton butt plate or perhaps a complex checkering pattern. As far a wood goes I always tell the client to buy the best that they can afford because my labor is the same whether its a $250 blank or a $2500 blank.

Why is it so expensive???? Well, it takes me a least 100 hours to do the job and that means that from an hourly rate perspective I make less than your plumber. I should state that I am not fast, if you want fast take the work to "Bubba" down the road. BTW I've seen Bubba's work!

The pictures that I'm posting for reference are of a Lefever Optimus Quality gun. Its a close as I can come to a sidelock gun at the moment and is IMO one of the most difficult shotguns to stock because of the shape of the top tang. This frame has to be inletted from the top down and you only get one chance to get it right. The checkering photo is to illustrate how a checkering pattern can make a huge difference in the stocking cost. This pattern with a matching forend would be an additional $1400 added to the stocking cost.

Wow, 4 to 6 thousand for restocking a sidelock that’s extremely reasonable. I would expect that for a boxlock not a sidelock.

What's interesting though is that even when you take inflation over the last 110 years into account that means that in 1900 I'll bet you got the entire gun for less money than what it costs to simply restock it today. I'm not certain of this, but even with my feeble mathamatical abilities $40 in 1900 is far less than $4200 today. Maybe Carter was right in the 1970's when he said "Isn't inflation great, we'll all soon be millionaires!" or was that from SNL.
Steve

Doug-

Nice job.

You 'da man.

OWD

Doug;

What would be the ballpark cost to restock an Anson and Deeley type boxlock?

On restocking jobs, be it boxlock or sidelock, you usually get what you pay for. And stocking a sidelock with nice wood is expensive.

Paul Hodgins out of Utah comes highly recommended. I have not used him yet but have spoken to him a couple of times when I was considering purchasing a gun that needed restocking.

Thank you Doug. Well said. Well done on the Lefever.

On the "Spanish Gun" forum at Shotgunworld.com, they are a few guys who are having their sidelocks stocked in Spain by a stockmaker named Diego Godoy. He is English trained and is one of the best in Spain. And his work is surprisingly affordable. Around $1,000 for a sidelock, I think (and that includes checkering and finishing).

Here are some shots of Diego and his work.

Adam,clean looking inletting. Bobby

Very nice Steven!

At the request of a fellow board member, here is Diego Goday's number.... tele 70 29 05. I hope that's right. Now, there is one big problem for most. Senior Diego does not speak English.

His price for a restock is approx $1000 (maybe even less). That obviously doesn't include the wood but that does include checkering and finishing. Turn-around time is about 3 months.

A member on another forum is having a gun restocked now. He also is having his barrels reblued and new springs and pins are being made as well.... all completed by Diego.

Her are some shots of the gun mentioned above. The owner chose a stunning piece of wood.







Adam

Just found some shots of the stock nearly finished (still lacking a couple more coats of oil).









Adam

Adam, how does the back and forth to Spain operate?

Best regards,

JC

SDH pictures illustrate why there is big difference in the prices of stocking a gun. Mr. SDH's Britte is inletted how a high quality stock job should be inletted.
Mr. Godays pictured inletting is not done to a high standard, as you can plainly see, he has taken many short cuts to cut the cost of the stocking down. While the shaping of the stock looks very nice, the inletting is where the corners have been cut. I have not seen Mr. Godays work personally so I'll refrain from commenting on other aspects of his stockmaking like checkering, finish, etc. Still, for a $1000 if one was just looking to put a nice stick of wood on a gun and the gun owner didn't care about the "little" subleties that show the stockers talents and highlight his craft, then your probably getting a smoking deal for $1000.

Dustin

As stated in this trail, what you pays is what you gets.

The pictures suggest that Mr. Godoy's work would be perfectly fine for restocking an AYA No.2 and I would have no qualms in sending my Spanish gun there at that price. As LeFusil pointed out inletting quality is questionable but also think the shape of the body and heel (bump, mid and toe) have been fashioned very quickly and resulted in a very un-uniform shape. Just my opinion though.

Here in the UK we have a number of stock makers but the "best" can be counted on one hand only. If you handled one of their stocks and also inspected the inletting, you would be speechless. It's only when you see this that you understand why it costs so much. One thing for sure, you know that the stock they make you is going to be here well after you have gone.

Yo hablo Espanol- puede yo ayudare usted con este Sr.??

Maybe I can help- I have a sidelock inletted buttstock for a 28 gauge AYA- nice grain, straight hand grip with 22 lpi- no cracks in the head, the tang or locks area--Two "flaws" that keep the price LOW- (1) the original Silvers solid red pad was removed- however, the stock has NOT been cut down- just needs a new pad and or spacers-(2) someone installed a rear sling swivel stud, then removed it later and filled in the hole with brown dyed Acra-Glas- sort of like a Zit on Brittany Spears you might say-- $125.00 plus shpg to you insured and if sold, I send a $10.00 check to Dave- and a Confederate C note to HoJo!!

Actually, it doesn't :-)

The guns are purchased used in Spain, sent to Armas Choy (which is owned and operated by Diego Godoy) to be refurbished to like new condition. Godoy is Spanish gun maker who builds custom shotguns and double rifles, and is a class act. He is, at present, restocking two shotguns I bought in Barcelona, using my wood and to my measure.

I don't know how one would go about exporting a gun bought here in the US to Spain, having Choy do work on it, and then exporting it back out of Spain. If someone cares to give it a try I'd be happy to learn from their experience.

Kyrie, I am interested in how you will get your gun out of Spain to your home in the U.S.

Daryl,

That's a two part problem; getting the gun exported from Spain and then getting it imported into the US.

The first part (export from Spain) is being handled by the gunshop from which I purchased the gun. They wend their way through the Spanish bureaucracy to obtain a Spanish export permit, arrange secure storage until the permit is granted, and arrange air transport and secure transport of the gun to the airport when the permit has been granted.

The second part (importation into the US) is being handled for me by T. R. Imports in Texas. They handle obtaining the BATFE form 6 importation permit, receive the gun when it arrives at DFW airport, walk it though US Customs, and then send it to my local FFL for delivery to me.

Not a simple process, nor a cheap one, but workable.

Adam seems awful young for his vision to be failing.

I am not so fast to speak negatively of Mr Goday's work. The locks being compared are of different design and are not an exact comparison. While I am always hesitant when the price is too good to be true. I respect that the stocking for the money appears to be a good value.

Griffin & Howe can arrange to "round trip" a gun to Spain and back if, for instance, you want to have it restocked by the maker or have new barrels made and fitted. The costs depends on how many guns they are sending over at the time - if you can wait, they will "bundle" a group of guns and ship them together to spread the costs out. I am not sure though if this service is limited to the makers they carry (eg Arrieta).

Here is the contact info for their import/export person:

Shari Buchanan
Import/Export Manager
Griffin & Howe
33 Claremont Road
Bernardsville, NJ 07924
908-766-2287

jOe - it is heartwarming the way you encourage younger members here in their interest in doubleguns.

WTF?

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You were wrong....I was actually agreeing with LeFusil's observations.

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CHORIZOS' GUN LOOKS PRETTY GOOD FROM HERE, FIT AROUND LOCKS NICE AND CLEAN. I'D PAY A GRAND FOR THAT KIND OF WORK. JEFF

Guys,
There is no snobbery going on. For $1000, Mr. Godays work is just that, a $1000 stock job. Thats not a bash and if you're taking it that way, that was not my intention.

Old Colonel,
Regardles of the style of locks, the inletting on a high quality stock job will look very similar to the pictures of the inletting that SDH posted. Take a look at any H&H sidelock, new or old, the inletting looks nothing like Mr. Godays work and I suspect that 95% of Mr. Godays work is done on H&H style sidelocks. Like I said earlier, Mr. Goday has cut corners inletting the stock, which is fine if you're someone who doesnt care much about the finer details of stockmaking. There are many here who could give a rats ass how the inside of the stock looks, most people are more concerned with how the stock looks and feels externally anyways. I understand all of that.

Chorizo,
Adam is young...he has alot to learn yet. He's got a good headstart, but he still has lots to learn.
And Homelessjoe is un biased when it comes to being rude, its what he does, again...get used to it, everyone else has.

Dustin

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Chorizo,
I may be wrong, but you sure seem to be taking this a bit personally. Please don't. Just because you fail to the see the differences, doesn't mean there isn't any. Open your eyes and mind. I will try to show you that all stocks are in fact...not created equal.

Specifics. Look at the pictures of Mr. Godays inletting of the locks, instead of taking the time to inlet into the wood spaces for each peice of the lock to "fit" into, he just hollows out a massive area to accomodate the locks. This is the best example of cutting corners that I can provide you. It's blatantly obvious. I will provide pictures.

This work is "HIGH QUALITY" (Woodward Automatic)


This again is "HIGH QUALITY" (H&H hammergun)


Another example of "High Quality" (H&H O/U)


Quality speaks for itself (Joseph Lang)


Can you now see the obvious differences in Mr. Godays work as compared to the stockwork I have pictured here?
Now pay attention to the shapes of the drop points. The shape of the nose on the stock. Now the "belly" of the stock. The shape thru the wrist. All of these things, when one cares to notice seperates the $1000 jobs from the $5000 jobs. The difference to me is obvious.
If you had your gun stocked by Mr. Goday for $1000 and you love the work, that is ALL that matters. If his work and price point gets you to that happy place, that is awesome. I mean that with all the sincerity in the world.

Dustin

And yet WHY are these fine stockers forever leaving the insides completely unfinished; raw wood just waiting to suck up gun oil like a sponge. Would a proper sealing kill them? Steve

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The stocker who made these stocks does in fact brush a small amount of finish on the inletting. And no, it doesnt kill them to do so.

Dustin

You can lead some to water but you can't make them drink....

I agree.

I tried man, I really did. Gotta figure this out on your own I guess. Happy trails.

Dustin

Ok, LeFusil, now I have a question.

Let me preface it by saying I have utmost respect for anyone who can do the kind of woodwork involved in stockmaking and, more particularly, the high-end inletting your pictures upthread show. The question I have is: why is inletting in that high-end fashion your pictures show, as opposed to a less elaborate pattern like the Spanish stockmaker's work shows, so important? Is there a subtle advantage, mechanical or otherwise, that comes from ensconcing each part in an inlet cut to its shape, or (to put it bluntly) is it a matter of a stockmaker doing it because he as woodworker can do it?

I cannot see much functional advantage gained from the more elaborate high-end inletting, but that may be my ignorance speaking. I do appreciate the aesthetic advantage, though.

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This is, I think, one of those 'gun value' versus 'social value' things. The very precise inletting that LeFusil appears to favor doesn't offer any functional value over the more simple inletting. Some folks view the precise inletting as an indicator of 'style and quality' and are willing to pay more and wait longer for it.

To each his own.

There sure as H--- ain't 2-4 thousand dollars difference in the inletting. I wonder if you told the guy you would give him another $500 for crisper inletting what you would get? Is there 20- $40,000 difference between a best Spanish gun and a best English or Italian gun?

Dave,
Is there a functional advantage to having a gorgeous piece of wood compared to a plain piece of wood on your gun? Any functional advantage to world class engraving over laser etched? Any real functional advantage over plain twist barrels over 4 iron Turkish British best damascus? No. I guess certain aspects of the gunmakers art have no fuctional advantage at all. The art is a statement, a statement that the gun you are using is a quality instrument, that many hours of extremely valuable, highly skilled time and labor went into the manufacture of that instrument.
If the inletting of the locks is of high quality...then wouldn't the heading up of the stock be just as high quality? If the stocker spent that much time inletting the locks, he more than likely spent that much time heading up the stock, getting the measurements right, inletting the trigger guard, top strap, getting the shape of the stock correct. etc. You know that it was done right.
I guess it could be said that there actually IS a functional advantage of knowing it was done right. Piece of mind is extremely functional.

So, silk skivvies and all, enjoy your guns boys. And for what its worth, I can't afford the work that I pictured, I have never spent more than $2500 on a re-stock. I was just saying...there are differences, I'm not above pointing them out and knowing I pay for what I get.

Dustin

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I tried man, I really did. Gotta figure this out on your own I guess. Happy trails.

Dustin [/quote]

You did good Dustin!

I thought of a couple of analogies to use but the best one that I can think of is this. Lets use a new Corvette vs a new Ferrari Italia. The Corvette is just as or nearly as fast as the Ferrari, it gets you where you want to go, it's cool to look at, everything about a new Corvette says "I want one". I want the Ferrari given the choice but hey I can't afford either one.


There is one thing that just drives me crazy and apparently no one else cares about it..... the "fill in point pattern" thing. It's like finger nails on a black board to me!!!!!!!!! BTW, the checkering is poorly executed, but I guess if you don't see it then you don't care.

Ah, Dustin, that was a real stretch. The question was about gun function and you wander off into 'Piece (sic) of mind is extremely functional.' Seriously?

Bottom line is highly precise inletting is a form of hidden decoration. Valuable to some and not to others. Trying to elevate a personal preference to 'higher quality' is just silly. It's not like silk skivvies with little dollar signs on them improve the quality of the fellow wearing them – other than in his own mind.

Indeed, Suh, it is. Our friend Joe is a virtual "cheerleader" for getting today's generation of gun buyers away from the plastic stocked $1500 plus auto=loaders as shown in DU magazines, etc) and back to the good old days- vis a vis the fine doubles discussed here. As Joe, like the late T.N.B. hails from the Great Volunteer State of Tennessee, I assume the W.T.F. stands for Walter Thaddeus Fitzroy, the Lt. Governor of Tenn. when T.N.B. was a lad growing up in Memphis. Keep up the good work, Joe, we need you to keep some of us from "getting lazy" here-- Go Vols!!!!

I guess I'll just keep using my vintage English doubles and they'll keep throwing good money at poorly constructed Spanish beasts...

Ya. Seriously. Its obvious you know little of fine doubles and what goes into them. Maybe stick to Broomhandles eh? The original post was a question on the cost of stocking a sidelock. Prices were given, numerous reasons have been given for prices and why stockers charge a certain price. Examples given even from professional stockers who are members of this board. Seems all of that has been overlooked. A poster posted a picture a a Spanish gunstocker doing work for a price, I spoke up and explained why and how that work was being done at that price. What have you offered up sir?? Nothing, thats what. You and Mitch want me to keep explaining to you why good stockmakers charge the prices that they do, I tried doing just that. Again, you offer nothing, other than bashing what good stock work cost and why good stockers do what they do.
I'll let the professional stockers answer your questions of how functional the inletting is, I imagine the pro's on the board here are just sitting back and shaking their heads, probably do them no good to explain why they do what they do, sure it'll fall on deaf ears anyway. If you need names and numbers of good stockers, send me a pm and I'll get you in touch with some of these guys, you can ask all the questions your little hearts desire.

Glad Doug pointed out the checkering was subpar, better him than me obviously. Better be ready to explain why Doug ;-)

You want $1000 stocks? Have it man. I can care less. I've got my guns and I'm happy with what I've got too.:-)

And Mitch, I'll be leaving for Boise to do some bird hunting on Weds, be there for 5 days. Send me a PM and lets get together, I'd love to explain myself in person, I'd love to see your restocked gun too. If you dont live near Boise, I'm in southern Idaho alot, we should still try to get together and talk guns, maybe we'll both learn something new.

Dustin

How easy you think it's going to be for someone to get something corrected all the way from Spain should something not suit them ?

I'd as soon order a Russian mail order bride.

How about an English mail order bride, would you order an English mail order bride?

I can only shrug, and hope you enjoy your silk undies :-)

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As broke as I am I'd be doing good to get a mail order Spanish bride

Good one jOe

CHORIZO, PRETTY SAD WHAT YOU POSTED TO DUSTIN. YOU BOTH LIKE DOUBLES BUT YOU HAVE NOTHING IN COMMON BECAUSE HE KNOWS HIGH QUALITY WORK. HE ADMITS HE CAN'T AFFORD IT, I CAN'T EITHER BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN I DON'T LIKE IT. I SHOOT AN ARRIETA BECAUSE I CAN'T AFFORD A HOLLAND & HOLLAND. JEFF

Go for it. Chorizo is right abut your cultural impediment.

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It's a pity that this has become more about people than guns.

In terms of guns, an English shotgun and a Spanish shotgun are functionally identical. Both work well, last nearly forever, and are a delight to handle. A top end Spanish gun is finished about 90% as well as a top end English gun, and costs about 10% of what the English gun costs.

For some folks, that last 10% of cosmetic work is worth the 90% greater cost. Nothing wrong with that, and more power to them. For other folks, a 90% drop in cost is well worth the 10% drop in looks. Nothing wrong with that, and more power to them.

Where I start objecting is when either side gets their nose in the air.

Price Point..........

For a little extra I am sure Mr.Diego Godoy would "fill to point" to give the interior a nice "routered" look if that trips your trigger or blows your dress..........and then it could be gold leafed AND YOU WOULD STILL BE THOUSANDS AHEAD.....THOUSANDS..........


Are sidelocks & hammers, internally unseen, better if they are engine turned or plain....does the function change or does it just blow someones dress up and down and lead somebody to think the parts are better made......?..........

You guys are beating up Mitch over nothing, rather than complementing him on his guns............which are super nice.........

I think if you have a couple of new Purdey's or H & H's in your Bentley or Rolls Royce or Ferrari, then you can look down your nose........and if that's the case, most of us wouldn't want to talk with you anyway...........

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It is remarkable that we are all in many ways passionate about our guns, our opinions, and that is good. Good guns are worth talking about. I respect the work shown by all the examples posted to include the the work done in Spain. I am in awe of the talented craftsman who create the guns we love.

For the money I am convinced the work done by Mr Goday is of value. I am also convinced that the percentage ratio noted in an earlier post of 90% of the quality for 10% of the cost maybe off a bit. I do believe that we (gun buyers) pay a permium for Brit guns when compared to the best from Spain, Italy, Belgium, or Germany, and that things are worth what people are willing to pay. If I had it I might pay as much as others can or do. I think its great that some of us have found a way of getting great gun work for the dollar.

Some on this board never cease to amaze me.....

I never made the claim that Senior Diego's work was equal to a London Best. All I did was make mention that a restock job from him cost less than a $1000. Which is a bargain!

"Little Creek", who started this thread, asked about the cost of a restock job for his AYA sidelock. Wouldn't it make sense to recommend a stocking of this quaility for an AYA???????



You're kidding, right? Are you new to this forum?



Don't we all?




Mitch, please post photos of the gun when it's complete.

Thanks,
Adam

What logistics are involved in sending a gun to Spain for restocking? I know how hard and lengthy the process is to bring a gun into the US from Sweden as a purchase. My purchases from the fall 2010 auctions in Sweden have just made it to Chicago.

Chorizo and Kyrie have posted some very helpful information on another forum about buying guns in Spain directly, having them restocked and imported to the US. SGW Spanish Forum

If you are looking to round trip a gun from the US to Spain, call Shari Buchanan at Griffin & Howe. TR Imports might be able to help you as well. TR Imports If you are sending one gun over, it can be costly - if you can aggregate some guns for the shipment, it becomes more cost effective.

Somehwat off topic here so I apologize in adavance.

Can a PoW grip be altered to a straight/english stock?

Interesting, I wonder why some many Brit makers are now buying these "poorly constructed" Spanish guns in the white and finishing them in the UK, or why the AyA No. 2 remains one of the top selling guns in the UK.

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Why would anyone in their right mind buy a gun in Spain that needed restocked and then have it imported....all this sight unseen.

I take it these guns are not very old why would they need restocked ?

Am eYe missing something here ?

Why would anyone in their right minds post here when it is frequented by jerks like you.

Posts deleted and please do NOT anticipate any updates. Adam, please do not post over here any info from my threads.

I'm just trying to learn

Go away

Yes, some (but not all) can.

As soon as I get an answer eYe will.

Gnomen, thanks for the input. I would imagine a lot would depend on if there was enough wood left at the neck. Thinking about a gun at Robin Hollow Guns (R.I.) but the gun I am interested in has a PoW grip and the gun would be too costly to purchase as is and do a restocking but if the PoW could be altered to straight/english then it might be worthwhile.

I believe there is a chapter in MM/DT's Shotgun Technicana that discusses what is involved with removing a POW or PG, if you have that handy.

Yes, that's a good chapter and more than once I've passed on a gun because the stock wasn't suitable for conversion based on the info in that chapter.

You will also have to deal with the trigger guard tang which is generally shorter on a pistol-grip and POW than on an English.

Well, yeah. Using the original pistol grip trigger guard on a straight grip conversion results in some of the ugliest guns I have seen, conversions or not. If you want the straight grip, you have to do it all the way.

If you cut the POW grip off a stock that was balanced for it, you throw the balance point several inches forward, into your left hand. You can add lead back into the hollowed out stock to move the balance point back out, but the moment of inertia may/may not be the same afterwards.
If you want a straight grip gun, look for one.

I'm surprised no one said, "Look, You are paying for time. Some peoples time sells for more, or less than others."

Another point, since I have a few guns who's stock heads were beaten to mush, More bearing surface, more interconnected wood fibers, greater strength. Lasts longer. Less likely to snap off. Excess hogging out of material in the interest of speed increases risk of breakage.

You'd figure they'd know all that...

Presumably extending the trigger guard would add some weight back in the grip area?

Yes it would but don't forget that you have to remove some wood to inlet the guard's tang so the gain would be marginal.

If you're removing some honking big PG then you might get significant balance change but the few POWs that I've seen changed weren't affected insofar as I could tell.

The way this thread morphed is exactly why I simply posted a pic and stayed away for a few days.
I can readily admit that the lock inletting Dustin showed on the Woodward is superior workmanship than my own.
Although no doubt some will not understand this, some craftsman continue to strive to improve their work throughout their career. I have often experienced my clients call me a year or more after taking delivery to tell, "I didn't see (this or that) particular detail until the other day."
How do you point out all of the subtleties?

Thanks for the input guys.

If I get serious about the gun I may get a good stocker to go ahead and take a look for me.

The guns a boxlock not a sidelock. I don't want to get a deal though where I'm paying more for a restock job than what the guns actually worth.

We've lost sight of the main reason for re-stocking a gun; to have a stock cut to our measure. Sr. Godoy is in the process of stocking two guns to my measure. One of these is a Martin Ugarteburu Mod 115:



If one is going to the trouble and expense of having a fitted stock made, there is little point in using a plain piece of wood. Here is the shaped and partially finished stock that will go on the 115:

Fancy looking piece of wood....looking at the grain structure of the wrist it's just asking to crack.

Beautiful job Mr. Hughes.

The gold under the trigger loop is that your initials ?

Joe, I hate to speak for Steve but I do believe that is his gold "cartouche" that he uses on his custom projects.

The most impressive thing about that close-up is that ALL the wood pores are filled!!

SDH - 24kt: I call it my hallmark, this version since about 1992.
The process is detailed in my Double Guns and Custom Gunsmithing book.

First thing I noticed was the wood pores...I just didn't say anything because viewing the quality of your work I figured it was just the norm.

Kyrie, I just picked up on this thread but your % are a bit off I think, at least here in Europe, a top end Spanish gun is now about GBP 15k or $24k, a top end London best is GBP70k or $112k so it´s about 20% but as the head of one of Londons top gunrooms said to me "It is amazing what they do for the price" and also "If you took the name off 95% of gun buyers wouldn´t know which was which", best, Mike p.s. shame half the threads have been deleted, p.p.s if you want a stock inletted to AYA no.1 standards in Spain it will be about $4000

Hey Steve, is that top photo my .30-06 ? I´m still waiting for it to reach London best, Mike

Kyrie, I should make clear that $4k includes a reasonable piece of wood, best

I am late to this thread, but let me share my opinion. (I own 2 London bests and 2 Spanish sidelocks) The reason for the exact inletting is not to show off superior skills but to provide a more secure structure. Notice the black screw heads imprint. This type inletting literally keeps the pins and bridle tight, they can't easily loosen. The more wide open inletting would allow a pin to loosen and back out. Also should a spring break it hopefully will stay in place, not fall into the mechanism and cause further damage. Further, the cost of living in Spain is less and the wages are less, which accounts for some of the cost difference. American custom gunsmiths do some of the best work available anywhere and they feel they deserve a good hourly rate. Thankfully we are still free to choose what to pay for such services and they are free to set their prices.

Stephen- you don't have to take a back seat to anyone here for the quality of your craftsmanship- and your fotos are worth a thousand words-- Joe just likes to "stir things up" a bit-- looks like he got a nice pissing contest a going (at the expense of your thread) with another guy named after a fat piece of Spanish sausage- all this International flavor makes me want to take my 1911 era LC Smith 3E 12 with the straight hand stock, and convert it to a "prisoner of War' style grip- then sit back and watch Steve McQueen shout "Nicht Schiessen" in the super biker movie -The great Escape"- sure wish he had cleared that barbed wire and hit Switzerland-alas--

Yes Mike, that's your rifle.

Nitra, You've got it all spot on, except; Stockers have been know to imprint the screw heads a bit more than they actually touch... between you and me.

I can´t wait !!!!! best

RWTX, the Steve McQueen caper was pure fiction. Never happened, not even close. My father was one of the organizers of The Great Escape at Stalag Luft III.

His closest buddies were the security and tunneling bosses, George Harsh, a very rich American who did 12 years on a Georgia chain gang, and Wally Floody, a Canadian hardrock miner.

Wally, a consultant on the film, said "Aw hell, if it (the motorcycle caper) makes a good story, let 'er go." For real drama, read Harsh's Lonesome Road, a wonderful writer, humanist and US hero.

When he botched a suicide attempt and wasn't doing well in US military hospital, Wally, my father and his other Canadian wartime flying buddies brought him to Sunnybrook in Toronto, the best in the country.

He died happily here with his Canadian "family."

Nitrah +1

King Brown et al: In the old country, I was taught that there no Yanks if Stalag Luft III when the escape was made!

Could I have been misinformed?

Franchi

For those interested, here are a couple shots of some stocks from AYA #1s and #56 (the pigeon gun version on the #1... both same quality)

Adam

Very nice Adam........I especially like the wood finish on those stocks with some "wood pores" still showing as wood should be.......the all filled pores to me look fake and plastic, like the CZ satin stock finish and some others we've seen posted........wood should always look like wood........

Some folks refinish to fill all the pores, but to me they look really plastic, with a bowling pin look......

Most original guns pre WWII had some wood pores showing, no matter how highly polished.

Thanks for posting Adam......


NEW $25,000.00 KRIEGOFF WITH NICE STOCK WORK AND SOME OPEN PORES FOR THE REAL WOOD LOOK........




Best,

Nice and I agree that you need some pores showing to make it really look like wood.I like "longer" diamonds on my checkering though.

...and the rain collects and soaks in each an every unfilled pore...
but you can have it any way you want.

Franchi, there were lots of Americans among the 10,000 Allied airmen in Stalag Luft III. As I write there's a portrait on the wall of my father as a POW in Stalag Luft III by Lieutenant John Lundquist USAAF. From all over the United States, some 240 pilots made their way to Britain when she stood alone against Germany, many becoming aces in the RAF Eagle squadrons 1940-42 and later the USAAF. They were delighted to get away from Brewsters and into Hurricanes. Many Americans joined the Royal Canadian Air Force through a recruiting program set up in New York City under the command of Canada's leading First World War ace Billy Bishop, 72 kills. (I just googled the number of Americans in the camp: 7,500.)

Wow- great stuff indeed. Stalag (Stockade) Luft (Air or aviation). McQueen did all his own stunts in that movie, no doubles- even the last motorcycle ride towards Switzerland and possible freedom. My favorite poem is "High Flight" written by Canadian John Gillespie McGee Jr. He died in a plane crash in 1941 (year I was born) while still in Canada- practice flight that went wrong- he had his orders to report to the RAF in England-- two books you might like to read, unless you already have: (1) "The Big Show" by RAF pilot Pierre Clostermann- describes the Battle of Britian- Radar and the longer flight lines for the Luftwaffe fighters in 1940 to get over England gave the Brits a slight edge- (2) The Eagle Has Landed- fiction about a Abwehr plot to kidnap Churchill from a weekend retreat in the Northern marshy areas of England-- a bit of Gen. Otto Skerzensky and his "Schirmfalljaeger" troops and a special op- involving both sea and air- the pilot chosen for this mission, even though he had over 40 kills in his ME-109 (mostly B-17's) had yet to receive his Ritter Kruz (Knight's Cross) from "Fat Boy" Hermann Goring at Karinhall-the usual Luftwaffe tradition- why? because he had the audacity to tell Goring to his fat face why the British SuperMarine Spitfire was a better fighter in a dogfight than his ME-109- Old "Fat Boy" didn't much like to hear that I guess- it's fiction, but a great read, and in a somewhat believable scenario.

My first wife's uncle Jack was a navigator on a B-17 on the raids on the Polesti oil refineries in Rumania- their plane was shot up, they all parachuted out- deep in Naxi territory, and were captured and ended up in a Stalag Luft (number unknown) Like in "The Great Escape" the CO was a Luftwaffe Oberst (Full Bird Col.)- but the German guards did random inspections and counted all the boards and studs in each barrack at random, the POW's were never given gardening or any other tools- they mainly played baseball and soccer- BUT-
when a Gestapo Major (Hauptsturmbannfueher) showed up and demanded the CO turn over all the POWs that were Jewish to him, the CO refused. The camp was liberated in March 1945. Her uncle said that their captors would often open their Red Cross packages and get the American cigarettes and Hershey bars- He spoke fluent German, but was smart enough not to let guards know that--

Been watching this thread since it's start but it had become a little lost and until now I felt a straight forward answerr to the original question would have got lost in the flack!
Now things have settled:
The Blanch back action SLE that I posted (http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=246592#Post246592)
cost about £1100 ($1700 approx) including chequering and oil finish, wood extra.
Knowing a little more than I did then, that is about 1/2 to 1/3 of what it would have cost to have it done by a time served stocker in the UK at trade prices to the same standard.
I used D'Arcy Echols to copy the original (inc forend) which I had modified to my (very) approximate dimension ($650). I then passed it to a time served stocker in the UK who did the final fit of locks and action and shaped the body of the stock to my chosen style and exact dimensions ($500). I then had the chequering done by a trade expert ($400) and did the oil finish myself ($250).
One of the advantages of using a stock copier of the quality of D'Arcy is that you get inletting of the same quality as the original which with a turn of the century English gun can be very good indeed. In fact he left the inletting 0.005-0.010" proud on the inner surfaces so that the stocker could work the wood back to a perfect fit at minimal expence.
As regards the question addressed earlier about the function of perfect inletting formed around each component, this can be crucial in many sidelocks as the wood thickness between the lock inletting and trigger groups, ssfety & lever work can be only thousandths thick. The slithers of wood between components can make all the difference between these thin wals crumbling and the stock remaining sound through centuaries of use and many thousands of shot cycles. Also as discussed it can stop bridle and spring screws backing out and contain broken springs.
New stocks' inletting can be sealed with a variety of substances: I have heard recommendations for 'Knotting compound', 'French Polish' (not disimilar) and the stock finishers favoured stock finish. All work fine in my experience.

About like quail hunting without a dAwg

In furniture making, the "formal" woods (such as walnut, rosewood, and mahogany) are open grained and had to be filled. The job was not considered finished or proper unless this was so. One may think that unfilled pores bespeak the realities of wood, and hold an opinion contrary to centuries of serious woodworking. Filling the pores and achieving a quality finish is time consuming and tedious- but unlike quality inletting, cutting corners here is out front and center stage. I have seen London best featured on magazine covers that were an embarrassment to fine finishing.

Mr. Hughes posted a close-up of his work that forces scrutiny, and screams quality. Simply astounding work at a level which I could never attain, but can certainly appreciate.

Since we are speaking of guns and not dining room tables:

This would be an opinion that like so many others will run from "lightly oiled military finish" to "high gloss plastic all filled finish" and everywhere in between.......therefore....TO EACH HIS OWN I WOULD SAY....If you like the filled bowling pin plastic look, or the modern satin finish look, go for it........whatever blows your dress.........


I like these and this is how I finish the stocks and always have and always will, top pic is one of mine, bottom pic is a factory new gun with some exposed pores as it should be........."beauty is in the eye of the beholder".....


New 25K factory Kriegoff........

The stock you show that you 'refinshed' looks okay...but truthfully it's looks like you didn't get "finished with it". It looks to be low grade very open grained Black walnut.

All wood is not created equal...Lower grades of walnut are harder to fill and can look like a cheap bowling pin when done improper.

Higher grades of Bastone, Claro and French Walnuts don't look like "plastic bowling pins" when properly finished.

It is low grade....I don't own any expensive guns, sorry........

You didnt say what the wood cost, but anyway 1700 is a bargain even in the UK. Apparently cant get that type of work done here in USA for nowhere near that price.

BTW: Toby.....love that gun!

It would look better and serve you better if you filled the grain and sanded in the butt plate.

Truthfully I'd rather have open grain in a stock than grays in my damascus barrels.

The point is that juglans is an open grain species that for centuries has been seen as needing the pores filled, whether it graces a gun, the cabinet in which it resides, or the table on which it is laid. And one should not confuse sheen with the filling of the pores: a low sheen or satin finish looks best with the pores filled, and the higher the sheen the worse unfilled pores appear. Taste in levels of sheen goes in and out of style, but few who have seen his work would turn their nose up at the French polish painstakingly applied to a cabinet by Riesner.

The bottom line is that you finish the stock the way you like and are content with the result. Your taste should triumph. On this we agree.

As to skirts, I've never worn one, and will defer to your experience at the thrill of having it blown up.

Mike

It's great that we can believe whatever we want based on our own experience without any regard as to the opinions of others.......We can buy and refinish whatever and however we see fit based on what pleases us and our customers........doesn't get any better than that................

HERE'S A REALLY NICE PURDEY, LIKE NEW, WITH A BEAUTIFUL REAL WOOD FINISH THAT LOOKS GREAT, SIMILAR TO THE AyA THAT ADAM POSTED

Agreed.

T

Steven, your site is fascinating, just reading and looking at the pictures. Thank you. You clearly do good work...someone else I can pick the brain of..

T

Don't you just hate the guy...makes me want to take up bowling.

Battle,
The wood cost me about $180 which I know is ridiculous. Reason it was so cheap was that it was a quite thin blank, much thinner than most stockers would consider. Sold at auction as 'suitable for a small bore' I left a silly bid and got it!
One advantage of the Blanch back action SL's is that they are very narrow at the locks so a thin blank was fine.
The people involved in the stock's creation all agreed on one thing: the wood was horrible to work! Perhaps the vendor knew something I didn't!

Interesting statement:

"It's great that we can believe whatever we want based on our own experience without any regard as to the opinions of others.......We can buy and refinish whatever and however we see fit based on what pleases us and our customers........doesn't get any better than that................"

I've seen a lot of work from guys who do just this. It ends up in my friend's shop when he has to repair it. Turns out that their "belief" in how something was supposed be done was just plain wrong.

In a lot of gun stuff, there are right ways and a wrong way. That's not an opinion, that's a fact.

OWD

So much jumping down people's throats owd? Actually I believe people should do what makes them happy in life whatever that might be.

Huh? We talking guns here?

If we're are, there are right ways and wrong ways to do things. That's a fact.

OWD

BTW: I'm not jumping down anyone's throat. I'm discussing something by bringing up another point of view.

Beautiful work Steven. Right now I'm trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear for my "to go gun". I always hated the color of the stock. I think it was cut out of a piece of blond Pi$$ Elm. Checkering is so bad I think they used two or possibly three lines per inch.

Personally, I like the 'Purdey way'.

My bad OWD. I just don't see it that black and white personally. I think I know what you are saying but it just doesn't sound right...it's either this way or no way at all? Doesn't quite figure to me

T

Horses for courses gentlemen.

First do no harm.
Then effort appropriate to the shotgun. Some are low born.


The AyA #1 Deluxe I had back a few years ago had gold washed locks, acanthus leaf engraving, and open pores.
Earlier pic varied considerably.

Ooops, watchitthere, RWTF! The wonderful Steve Mcqueen did NOT do all his character's motorcycle riding in "The Great Escape".

The most famous shot, the one you mention, the long ride and jump was actually Steve's main mechanic and friend, whose name now eludes me, lost in the mists of time.

I know, it's a letdown but unfortunately the truth.

King Brown - I wish I had a collection of every one of your posts. I've been reading them for nearly a decade and they always shine, no matter if the topic be mundane or genuinely fascinating. I truly regard you as deserving of your crown!

The jump was actually made by Bud Ekins. He was a hard core racer, stuntman, and motorcycle dealer. Not a mechanic. Likely difficult to impossible to find his equal.

Ekins won four Gold Medals and a Silver at the International Six Day Trials during the 1960s.[1]
He rode a 650cc Triumph TR6 Trophy as did Steve McQueen in the USA International Six Day Trial team for 1964 held in East Germany. The team, mounted on Triumphs they personally collected from the Meriden factory, also included his brother Dave Ekins, who rode a 500cc Triumph T100 Tiger, winning, along with teammate Cliff Coleman, a gold medal in the process.
He received a gold medal at the 1962 International Six Days Trials in East Germany, and was part of the US ISDT team of 1964 with John Steen, Cliff Coleman, Dave Ekins, and Steve McQueen. In 1965, again on Triumphs, the team competed at the ISDT on the Isle of Man, McQueen being replaced by Ed Kretz, Jr.
Other race success included winning the Big Bear Hare & Hound desert race three times, the Catalina Grand Prix, and winning Southern California's AMA District 37 Number One Plate seven times.
In addition to motorcycle racing, Ekins was active in off-road truck racing. He participated in most of the early off-road racing events including the Mint 400 and Stardust 7-11 in Las Vegas, Nevada. He notably raced Vic Hickey's prototype "Baja Bug" in the first Baja 500 in 1973.
He is a member of the Motorcycle Hall of Fame and Off-road Motorsports Hall of Fame.

HTH

have a day

Dr.WtS

Many Thanks, Doc - My aging memory put him in Steve's hangar on many friendly visits. I knew he raced, but somehow I remembered him doing some tuning on some of McQueen's 2 wheelers. Oh well, guess not. I also recall him teaching McQueen some riding chops(?)

As mentioned on a recent thread, British bikes like Triumphs and BSA's played a big role in my sixties youth dreamscape. etc etc etc

Thanks again for setting the record straight.

laugh out loud best, Mike

How´s this for "pore filling"

How's this like new Purdey for the Real Wood, Non-Plas-teeek look.........

yOu really should give up bowling...

When my father was shot down in 1942 on his way to Bremen, he parachuted into the little Dutch village of Stavoren, and was soon rounded up by the Germans (there being no resistance escape organization at the time).

When they asked my father to get in a motorcycle sidecar, the driver patted his motorcycle and said, " Goot bike. BSA. Dunkirk," BSA one of thousands of motor vehicles left during the evacuation from Dunkirk beaches
in 1940.

Apologies for being off thread again but I thought bike lovers may appreciate the story.

Definitely not a pore man's gun or finish.

You definitely wouldn't wear bowling shoes shoot'n it..

Danke, Herr Koenig-- BMW- Bavarian Motor Werke- But when the Brits evacuated Dunkirk and left their gear behind in their blind panic to escape Der Blitzkreig-- How was it that they had BMW bikes anyway?

I might- but they would be custom black Johnson & Murphy bowling shoes- old "Blue Eyes" once defined a "Dork" as a man wearing a navy blue suit with brown wingtips-- That is a beautiful butt shot indeed-one any man would be proud to shoot!!!

A better definition of a "Dork" might be someone who cannot tell the difference between a BSA and a BMW motorcycle.
nial

RWTF, BSA is British Small Arms, which made motorcyles before the war and quite a while after it. I don't know about blind panic. The British Expeditionary Force was assisting the French and Belgians against the German blitzkreig, to sustain the French at almost any cost. The Canadian 1st Infantry Brigade was ready to sail from Dover. The British somehow managed to withdraw 338,000 men from the beaches, a logistical miracle under the circumstances.

That's a technical tour de force but not to everyone's taste despite it being obviously very expensive to achieve. Years ago I was shown a gun in the NYC Beretta Gallery that had been a custom job for some guy who then didn't want it. It had my stock dimensions perfectly.

The finish was so "over the top" I thought they were showing me a plastic stock!

They were only mildly offended.

Some have an eYe for class and some don't.

It's normally a cold day in Hell when I say something nice about the Brits. However, this insult is totally unjustified. For bravery they are second to none. The evacuation at Dunkirk was a miracle of courage and organization. Yes they got lucky in that the Germans didn't press their assault all the way for some unknown reason. Whatever the Germans did or didn't do the Brits would have continued to carry on regardless. There have been times when I hated their guts but never have doubted their courage and fortitude in adversity.
nial

Just out of curiosity and I don't mean to derail the thread, but what is your specific beef with the Brits? All of them?

Kinda curious.

Yeah, I was sort of wondering what the beef was too. I can understand why our founding fathers had a beef with the British, but now the Brits are our BEST of allies. Plus, they make the BEST guns too!!

Gents,

I hope these images can help to refocus the question placed regarding the cost of stocking a sidelock action. This is precisely a case of a Spanish SLE (Sarasqueta 7E model) that I described in another thread last month. IMO it is perfectly possible to obtain a rather high degree of finish at affordable prices outside the US or the UK/Northern Europe. In this case I was not very demanding with Mario Zavala, but I am sure that he would had gone the extra mile upon request. The agregate price for that stock plus fore-end (wood not included) was US$850.




Regards,

EJSXS

I'd say the wood work is befitting of the lock work.

I agree with Joe 100% and I still think $4,200 is very reasonable for a sidelock especially given the quality of the work. Get it stocked here then if something needs to be changed then it won't be a hassle to get in touch with the re-stocker. Plus didn't we just have this big argument over work being sent overseas by all those corporate fatcats because it's cheaper?

Exactly the point I was trying to make.

Trade deficit and all that...

Like my signature says......

CJO, very similar thought that the wonderful craftsman, Fred Adolph, had in the early 1900s. His thought was---------

"The Quality Is Always Remembered, When The Price Is Forgotten"

Very true.

Joe et al.,

exactly this is my point, "horses for courses", the original question by Little Creek even was refered to restocking an AYA gun. Some guys like to drive ferraris while living in smelly huts, others prefer renaissance palaces and shoot cheap semi-autos. All depends on your Utility Curve.

Regards,

EJSXS

I agree. If I was restocking an AYA or a bottom of the line Arietta, I would go the $850 route; however, if I was restocking a Holland Royal, I would go the $4500 route at a minimum or maybe even go with Paul Hodgins who charges $7500 labor plus your blank on top of that. Or maybe I would go with SDH as his work looks exceptional too. My point is, for a high priced Best gun I would go with the Best stocker I could find because as mentioned above the wood to metal fit and lock to wood fit is very important for the 100 year plus long haul in terms of strength and wear and tear on these fine guns.

If I had the money returned to my credit card that was blown on nonsense, I wouldn't even flinch at paying for quality work on one of my firearms. Funny how we obsess over one expenditure while letting cash flow through a sieve for baubles...Steve

If you have and AYA or a bottom of the line Arietta that needs restocking it probably would be more sensible to sell it and buy another that doesn't need restocking.

Thanks jOe. I don't own an AYA or a bottom of the line Arietta that needs restocking so fortunately I don't have to make this sort of decision.

I wonder if those stockers that charge ~ $850 for their work feel that their work is worth 1/4 that of those that charge $3500? Do those that charge ~ $3500 feel their work is 1/2 as good as those that get ~ $7000?

I wonder if those stockers that charge ~ $3500 for their work feel that their work is worth four times more than those that charge ~ $850? Do those that charge ~ $7000 for their work feel that their work has twice the value of those that charge ~ $3500?

I would suspect that some of that price comes from their reputation of turning out top notch work.

Don't forget that "They" may not be doing all of the work. I don't know if I want the worlds best stock finisher wasting his time on the band saw or belt sander. Better to force multiply and use the best available for each of the tasks necessary.

I have come to believe that due to time/ money constraints, and the overwhelming desire to please "Patrons", Joe off the street doesn't get treated the same as a "Patron".

It's not that Joe off the street isn't discerning, it's that he probably isn't coming back with two more years work from some far away auction.

Once a builder has adequate work on his books, and cash retainer, he is free to work. To do his best. To serve his Patron. Until then, he's gotta stay warm. So, some work cranks through for cash, and Patron work proceeds slowly. Joe off the street's work is to a price point/ time balance point. Even if Joe is never told that.

It's the same in every artisanal industry.

If you show the world your best, and they keep coming back, two years backlog is just about the right amount to suggest a price increase. As after all, all the artisan has to sell is his time.

It is more like having the reputation of turning out top notch work relies on getting top notch prices to do top notch work. Only a dedicated hobbiest can turn out quality work without reasonable wages.
As for the above post, I've only ever done one quality of work; the best I was capable of. The majority of my clients are self-made men who appreciate achievement and its value.
Garbi, 20 ga. two 29" barreled set.

Mr. Hughes how does that picture copy write work ?

Wild Skies,

Several variables operate regarding restocking prices: i.e. the market´s depth, the agregate utility curve of the gun owners, the local hour price of qualified artisans, the degree of transparency in a given market, the shipping restrictions on shotguns. So, in the US you have a big market, well informed gun owners of top notch shotguns but less well informed of more numerous owners of medium quality guns, high prices per hour of artisan work, ready available info on high quality repair, several restrictions to ship guns overseas. So, in summary there is a mid to lower section of the repair & restocking market that is not well attended. Maybe this section of the market should consider going abroad to satisfy their needs. Certainly those artisan that charge different prices are not necessarily in the same market, nor they have to feel unhappy because the earn 1/4 or 1/2 of somebody else. Another matter is the degree of contamination of this thread with opinions that do not answer the original question nor they help to solve problems of gun owners that have different utility curves than top notch gun users.

Regards,

EJSXS

A couple other words that should be entertained here are, "rarity", and "efficiency".

Steve only has maybe 2500 hrs to use per year. Similarly for all of the fabulous craftsmen around the world. Steve's work is distinguished by it's rarity. Medium grade work is not rare.

In an efficient market, rarity has value.
I think in their prime, London and Birmingham operated as efficient markets. Same for Leige, Suhl, Gardone, etc., and other concentrated firearms manufacturing sites.
The US firearms market is very efficient.

I said Steve [by no means to the exclusion of other craftsmen(and women) worldwide], because he posted such beautiful photos of very rare work.


Anything I may have posted is in support of a full spectrum of price/utility values.

I can certainly appreciate the skill that is required to inlet a sidelock to the standards that SDH and other top tier stockers adhere to. Having inletted one (and only one) myself, during building a longrifle, I have a much greater appreciation for the best work.

As I recall I spent somewhere around 16 hours doing this. I knew what the best work was supposed to look like, I just was incapable of achieving it. I left the inlet unstained intentionally, and sealed it with shellac.



This is the lock that rests in that hole.



SRH

I inlet dozens of flint and percussion locks entirely with hand tools, even a hand drill before I ever did a hammerless sidelock. I never stained the inlet either. Hope you had John Bivins instructions, it looks like you did, nice work.

I didn't have Bivin's book at the time, but had a mentor who showed me some lock inlets he had done so that I knew what I was shooting for.

There are some glaring errors that are obvious to me. I posted this so that others can see and compare the difference between average work and the best. The more we see, the easier quality is to recognize, IMO.

Thanks for you positive comment, Steven. That makes my day.

SRH