I see lots of posts talking about wood referring to Claro or Black Walnut. I thought they were the same thing. My understanding was that in the East it is often called Black and in the West usually called Claro but the tree is the same species. In a recent post someone said the Galazan RBL is available with different grades of wood including Black or Claro. What is the story on the difference (or no difference) between "American Black Walnut" or Claro? Regards, Jake
The same difference as a Red Maple and a Silver Maple. Or a Gambel Oak and a White Oak. Different trees.
Claro(clear)black walnut are the same thing. Originally imported from Greece and Turkey. Now common in California. More colorful than American walnut with it's rich colors of reds and browns. No two blanks are alike.
English Walnut - Juglans Regia
Black Walnut - Juglans Nigra
Claro Walnut - Juglans Hindsii
California Walnut - Juglans Californica
Some varieties are grown for their nuts while others for their wood. More than 400 black walnut cultivars have been named and released in the last century. Essentially these are either hybrids or selective breeding. Add to the mix that grafting often is used in orchards. The end result is very confusing.
It has been cultivated for at least 4,000 years. There is evidence that it has been eaten for almost 10,000 years. The Greeks and Romans did their best to spread the tree every where. The Romans were so taken with it that they had special walnut recipes prepared for weddings. Later the English continued the dissemination of the tree.
Pete
Which variety is ocassionally referred to as "French walnut"??
Jeff
According to my search of the literature(albiet confusing!), "French,Moroccan, Turkish, East-Indian,etc" are really of the Juglans regia family. Best. Dr. BILL
Dr. Bill, and Jugans regia is what we refer to as English. Right?
And you can bet your ficus benjimina on that!!
I think you would label this Claro walnut, what do you think?
I think claro is light in color. David
I would call it American black walnut --- definitely not claro. Ken
JDW,
If pressed I'd guess that was black walnut.
IME, Stereotype claro with figure is relatively lighter colored and more open grained than black, and has fiddleback and wild grain flows. Stereotype figured black walnut is darker, tighter grained, and has crotch feathering like your gun.
I've seen feathered claro blanks that I thought looked like high grade black. All my experience is based on accepting the seller's description of the wood source. I don't think they have the DNA results for the wood.
JDW,
So if Claro and Black are the same species how can Tony Galazan offer the RBL stocks in either Black American Walnut or Claro (Of course, he also offers English or Turkish).
Read all of the posts, Jake. Claro and Black Walnut are from two entirely different types of trees with different wood grain.
It goes sorta like this:
King Kingdom
Phillip Phylum
Couldn't Class
Order Order
Food Family
Got Genus
Sick Species
Juglans is the genus; the second name is the species (it in lower case).Members of a species may inter- breed (think dogs)and you can get varieties or breeds.Generally, different species cannot inter-breed or at least not successfully (think mules which are a cross of a horse Equus caballus and a donkey which is the domesticated version of Equus asinus)You will note that they are of the same genus, but different species and although they may breed the off-spring are almost always sterile in their mating.Grafting is another case as one species(the stem) may be attached to another root of a different species. Claro and Black are of the same genus (Juglans), but are different species.
I have to agree on what Yeti and William E. Apperson have to say.
Unless you have a botonist around before you fell the tree and tell you what it is, then we have to rely on what the merchant says it is.
what do I have here?
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Really good trees are not felled. They are disassembled.The important grain structure may well be down low. The tree is dug- up.As to sawing,only an expert can pull it off.Then, there is the curing.Then, the comparing of the grain structure to the stock. Way too many buy Exibition wood when that is what it is.For exhibit and not for shooting.My Olympic used Perazzi has very plain wood and is almost 40 years and 500,000 plus shells and no signs of wear.Try that with fancy xxxx exhibition.
An interesting article from this web site.
http://www.clarowalnutgunstocks.com/History.htmClaro Black Walnut is not native to California. General Bidwell, the founder of the city of Chico, imported seed stock from Greece and Turkey. These trees were planted, mostly for shade, along highways, roads, and city streets, as well as around buildings and farm yards. Over the course of the last 100 years or so, the nuts from these trees have been distributed by creeks and rivers, as well as by animals and man, to as far away as the San Francisco Bay area. As a result Claro Black
Walnut can now be found all over Northern California.
Claro Black Walnut is a shorter tree than its eastern cousin, American Black Walnut, and is much more colorful with its rich variations of browns and reds. Its hardness is nearly the same as American Black Walnut. No two slabs are alike, making each blank truly unique.
Yes and the burl is usually from the area near a branch and also be from where you stated "down below" near the surface or even the roots. A lot of the fiddleback, birdseye, (not too common in walnut)and the various other names given to the re-arranged grain is caused by borers, virsuses, vines wrapping around the tree when young, etc., giving the wood a "fancy' grain.
Where does "Bastogne" Walnut fit in the scheme of things?
Just another specie of walnut from France
Steve,
How do imagine Bastogne translates into english? That is the meaning. It is a cross between various varieties of trees.
As for black walnut, it shows tremendous variation in annual growth rate, nut production and grain structure depending on where it is growing. As little a 25 mile north to south difference can yield very different wood.
Pete
No 1 looks English
No 2 might be as well but with no figure but the picture isn't as clear.
Bastonge, try " bastard"; also try mule as in a previous post.Crosses between species are tried a lot. Most of the time they do not work.Some of the time they do. Try the cross between a double gun owner and a spouse who does not like guns.
So, does this mean that Bastogne is not a desireable stock material?
This is a subject that I have followed with interest, more than just a few years ago a friend and I spent our winters scouting and cutting walnut trees here in Central California. Trying to determine the different species of walnut growing in this area is difficult, most of the thin shell walnuts are grafted on a thick shell root stock, it might be Black, Claro or Bastogne. Most of the nursery trees that are planted now are on Bastogne rootstock because of its disease resistance and success as far as grafts are concerned. Bastogne is supposedly a hybrid between Juglans Nigra and Juglans Regina. Quality of the wood can vary from tree to tree, depending on where and how it has grown and to say that Claro is soft and brittle is not always true, I have seen Claro that was dense and quality wood and thin shell that was soft and useless. When cutting a tree you never knew what you had as far as color and quality until you cut it open. I have seen Bastogne in many different colors and quality; the dark brown colors seem to be very dense and have excellent figure. My experience is that each blank should be individually judged, keep in mind that most walnut in California is from orchards, with a few trees that were yard or wild trees.
Jim A.
Thin shell is english,french,turkish, and many other names for the same tree. The stock pictured above looks black to me. Claro has a reputation of being more brittle than black but there is a huge varation from tree to tree.
bill
Apperson, check your PM's.
Whatever type of walnut this is, I don't know or really care.
Here is the finished stock , received buttplate today fitted it and spent 20 minutes French Polishing to bring out the grain. Normally don't like a bright finish, but I think it does it justice. If I don't like it later, I'll remove it with my mixed drink of George Dickel.
Good info. BTW, Happy Birthday.
BTY Bastonge is the name of a town in Belgium. Is that a clue?
William E Apperson
Also a city in Mass. is it not?
Wonderful. Now we can have Masswalnut, Bosswalnut, and for non gun users Tedwalnut.
Look at some of the older, classic rifles from Roy Weatherby and you will see some good examples of Claro Walnut on a firearm.
Kind regards,
Claro or Black? Man who sold the blank said Black.
Man who stocked the gun said Claro.
Just curious. Checkering came out very fine with no fuzzies.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid150/p78367ce16a468ae8ecfb427bbbfe0ccf/f5d57137.jpg
Does any one have any photos of a Bastogne stock and for comparison, one stocked in Black, Circassian and french?
I believe James-l correctly identified the issues,"each tree provides wood that can be 'identified' only when it is opened up". The grafting/hybriadization/"bastogne" of the walnut trees has really confused the issue. Personally I ask my supplier for what I want, "English looking", "Claro light and wavy", "feather crotch", "fiddleback", etc. I further identify the project so as the influence the selection of density and grain. The supplier is in the wood business as a specialist, I pay him for his knowledge and he reciprocates by sending me what I want. Best, Dr. Bill
This piece of wood came from Richards Microfit in Burbank, CA about a dozen or so years ago and I fitted it to a 600 Rem I rebarrelled to 284 win. It is what I think is the classic "Claro" graded wood. It has open grain, not particularly soft, nor as hard as English, lots of yellow/gold flamey stuff combined with some rich reds and a little black. When I see that flamey yellow/gold and open grain, I think Claro. BTW, I think Claro can be some of the prettiest wood out there. It may have some faults, but pretty it is.
This was my very first checkering job. I also made the floorplate/tg from barstock. The gun is rustblued.
Dave Schiller, I have checked my PM's ; the only one is from two years ago and I do not think that the two that I have sent to you transmitted. Try my email model21bill@earthlink.net
Bill
Really nice work. The checkering outline enhances the flow of the gun. Darn nice wood also!
Nice to see everyone is in agreement. So if the stockmakers like English, what about a good piece of claro/black vs. a not so good piece of English. I am talking density and grain not figure here. I have seen claro which is very dense and English which was not.
Chuck, That's a beauty.
First run at checkering and it's borderless and wraps around much of the grip....no wonder you don't like woodwork so much
I really like the way big claro fiddleback goes through color changes depending the viewing angle.
That darn palmswell was a bear too.
This is an example of Claro American Walnut. This is a Win 21 'Custom Grade' out of the Custom shop 1968. The Win Model 21 catalog of that period describes the wood as "Grade AA Full-Fancy American Walnut. This is also the same specification for the 'Pigeon Grade' and 'Grand American Grade' of that period. Schwing's book of the Model 21 describes that period as Winchester having "difficulty in securing high quality American black walnut." "Winchester's wood buyers turned to Califronia where the source of California Claro walnut was adequate to meet the Custom Shop's needs". This stock is lighter than any other Model 21 I have.
Let me add that American Black walnut and this piece of claro have feather in them that changes as the play of light changes which makes them so attractive and cannot be conveyed by a picture. English, Turkish or many other type do not have this play but only consist of swirling patterns. The English is much easier to work with but I don't purchase it. After spending a morning in Kolar's wood room consisting of 100% English, I found not a single blank I cared for. An exhibition piece of American Black Walnut resides on my Kolar.
The second picture is a Win 21 'Custom Built' with American Black Walnut for comparison.
For those interested, the Custom Grade has 26" barrels, IC/Mod and 20 gauge 3" chambers with Field Beavertail.
The Custom Built is 12 gauge 32" VR.-Dick
Nice color and finish on that stock but the grain in the wrist looks as dangerous as any I have seen. I'd rather has strength than prettiness and the big money goes for those sticks where you get both.
Brent
Nice color and finish on that stock but the grain in the wrist looks as dangerous as any I have seen. I'd rather has strength than prettiness and the big money goes for those sticks where you get both.
Brent
Well, if you are worried about that stock, really worry about this one. It's on a Kolar and has a few thousand rounds through it with many more to come!-Dick
Everytime I see that pic of Dick's Kolar, I lust for that wood.
Yup, I would worry about that one too. Maybe I'm a worry wart, but I've broken too many double shotguns in the field (1) and have repaired others as well. I'm sure that many will hold up, and these might very well last for many lifetimes - but I'm guessing that the Kolar (whatever that is) is a range gun and thus pretty safe and it certainly has damned pretty grain.
Recoil isn't the issue in wrist strength - surviving a dive is.
Brent
Most of the target guns have wrists with crossection of quite a bit more than a slim English game gun or a Fox or Parker for that matter. I'm guessing somewhere around twice the crossection area.