I was interested in bidding on a couple of accessories (no guns) in the upcoming sealed bid auction by Holt's and wanted to hear some feedback from others who have bought through them, specifically from American bidders. Is there anything special I need to know before doing so, how difficult is it to have your items shipped to the US, or anything else that I might need to know? Any guidance would be most appreciated.

Be aware that the price you bid on an item will be the price you pay if it is the highest bid they receive. it is not a true auction.

Terry,
that only holds true for the sealed bid portion of the sale. The main sale is a true auction.

Be advised that buying from Holts is very expensive.

Let's say you buy a gun case for 300 GBP.

The hammer premium is 20% more

The VAT you must pay (even if American) is 22.5% of the hammer premium.

The freight is high, say $75 for the example above.

Customs is 3%.

You have a freight service charge of $10 on this end.

Your credit card will charge you a 3% foreign transaction fee on all of this.

Many CC firms give you a fake exchange rate that earns them an additional 3.75% vig!

So that 300 GBP gun case is now a $600 USD gun case, maybe more.

I have always had good results with Holt's. Be sure to factor shippng into your costs - it can be substantial.

Rook. Not quite right.

Hammer = price + 22.5%
VAT ONLY on items marked as +VAT. (not usually that many items). If it is VAT on top then that's the extra 20%.

Other than that looks right to me.

VAT should not be charged on an item going overseas.

Both incorrect based on my experience.

Hammer is 20%, then you pay 22.5% vat on that hammer premium.

All pay VAT. Then, when you receive the item in the USA, you can scan and send lots of paperwork back to Holts and get a VAT refund. Your VAT refund will be less than the cost of the inbound wire transfer fee to receive the money, so call it all lost.

I've done all of this many times.

Thanks guys, that gives me a little better idea of what I'm looking at.

As far as shipping, does Holt's package and ship items overseas themselves, or would I have to contact a separate shipping company to pick up the item from Holt's and have it delivered to me.

Whether or not there is VAT on the item, there is VAT on the buyer's premium. That is not refundable even if the item is exported.

Regardless of what you bid on, you should have someone look it over for you beforehand and not ever trust the auction description. Many dealers will do this for you for a small fee. It also helps to have someone do the bidding for you - it insures that the price doesn't get run up.

OK, just to get this right.

VAT in the UK is 20%. Not 22.5%. Commission that Holt's whack on is 22.5%.

In the USA you don't pay the VAT.

T

On items purchased at auction in the UK and exported (to the US for example) there is no VAT due on the item.

HOWEVER there is VAT on the Buyers Premium and THAT VAT is NOT refundable even if the purchased item is exported.

I have bought lots of stuff at UK auctions over the past decades and this is the system in use. I don't know why one VAT should be different from the other, but that is the way it goes.

Holt's is famous for running up prices. I've caught them doing it.

My original posts are correct.

Vat must be paid by all on the Hammer premium fee.

By law, you may demand a vat refund once the goods land in the USA and you can prove it. Naturally, the cost to accept a wire transfer is greater than the vat refund amount in most cases. Lost money.

I'll shutup and be happy with what I have to pay them and make my judgements on that basis.

Bottom line is go in with eyes open. I personally believe that a threshold will be met and people will stop buying at such crazy inflated prices. Especially for dealers the margin isn't there anymore...especially if you add VAT in some cases.

Bonhams have just put up their commission to 25% I heard, absolutely disgusting in my view.

T

In reference to the VAT discussion this is from a Christie's auction in 2001:

Special Notice
No VAT will be charged on the hammer price, but VAT at 17.5% will be added to the buyer's premium which is invoiced on a VAT inclusive basis.
Sporting Guns. Unless otherwise stated, this gun is a double-barrelled hammerless shotgun. Every gun (blue label), with specific exceptions (yellow label), requires a Shot Gun Certificate. http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=2103139

In regard to the commissions being charged..........I do notice that more and more Lots from Holt's are going unsold at their auctions including their most recent in December.

I've never bought a gun from Holt's but I have bought a cartridge case. I don't remember the particulars but I do remember being satisfied with the deal, including the shipping to the USA.

Did Holt's directly ship the case to you, or did you have to arrange shipping from a third party?

Holt's shipped the cartridge case directly to me.

Just to clarify some auction terms:

Hammer price is the final bid on which the auctioneer brings down the hammer. It does NOT include the buyer premium.

The Buyer Premium is a commission that the house charges the buyer. VAT is collected on this regardless of where the item is shipped and this VAT is NOT refundable.

The house also charges the seller a premium but that is another issue. The house will also charge the seller for illustrations, insurance, storage, cataloguing and anything else it can think of.

Is the confusion around the VAT thing?

As I understand it there are two ways VAT can be applied.

1) VAT is applied to the "commission" element of every transation
2) VAT can be applied in total across the total sale price (this is made clear at Holts by a symbol and text at the bottom of the description).

T

I just can't stand it any longer!

Here is the gospel!
The HAMMER price is the amount ex-premium and VAT!
If you have the item shpped out of the country (i.e.England) to the USA you do not pay VAT on the HAMMER price of the item. However you do pay VAT on the Premium. Once the item is shipped, you FAX a copy of the the Way Bill to Holts accounting and they will credit your account or refund you a check. Very simple! Holt's presently charges 22.5% premium, and of course the VAT is presently 20%.

Holt's has a shipping department (Gardiner's, Sotheby, Bonhams,
Christies, do not) For overseas shipping of firearms Holts uses
Harry Gordon or you can use PDQ. Costs for guns runs about 250-275 British pounds.

You can buy an English gun from an American dealer who didn't know what an English gun was 10 years ago! He now buys his Englsh guns in England at the same auction that you go to. When the guns cross the ocean they increase by a factor of 4 to 10!

The simple math is, it is cheaper to spend a little time with proxy bidding, VAT refunds, shipping, money transfer, international phone calls, paper work, than buying a gun from a dealer, who rarely knows about bore measurements, minnimum wall thickness, or even what an oak and leather case is.

ALL the people at Holts are very friendly and eager to help! Their web site is the best and easiest to use of all the auction houses, and I have used them all! I paid an English gentlemen of this forum to evaluate a gun I wanted. All I got were colored pictures. Talk to the people in the gun room the information is there, just ask the right questions. Remember, you buy the barrels when you buy an English gun.

HW Hyatt has it mostly correct....except.

Any gun made from 1899 to present requires a BATF form 6 prior to export.

Not only will you pay holding and storage costs, you'll wait for 6-8 months for that gun to be approved for import. You'll also need a customs broker and FFL to get the lot out of customs and BATF hell on this end.

On guns made after 1899, the notion of an inefficient market between the UK and US isn't the case. The margins would be extremely tight.

In one example, I saw a nice boxlock for 350 GBP. It needed $250 in stock work to be worth $1600-$1800 here in the states. After calculating all the costs involved, the actual cost was about $1350. Tremendous aggravation for a 10% net profit.

Bottom line, it must be a labor of love to import a gun, not a profit scheme.

It is all correct!

I believe the original gentelmans question concerning Holts was experiences, and shipping.

ATF permits, customs, import is another subject, but if you
are game, here goes.

Import licenses are best handled by your FFL importer. British Sporting Arms, Champlain, Griffin & Howe, will handle the paperwork (i.e. ATF import license, customs), PDQ, Harry Gordon, handle the British export. Both of these companies have open export licenses for the United States. The biggest time factor is obtaining the ATF import license which takes about 30 days ( post 1889 firearms) 3-4 days from London to the port of your choice (New York for PDQ) New York or--- for Harry Gordon. For pre 1889 firearms you can have your gun in your hands inside of a week to 10 days or quicker. I have been there, I have done it.

I know nothing about buying a gun in the UK and then importing it to the USA, but when I bought a gun in Paris I was just required to show my US passport and leave with the gun. I stored it at my apartment there until I had the ATF Form 6/ import permit and then just brought the gun to the US as luggage. I filled out the Form6 paper work and a local dealer here in PA signed it for $20. I mailed it to the ATF and they sent me the permit a month later. I had to pay customs duty at the Philadelphia airport when I declared it and showed the Form6 but there were no middlemen involved. Perhaps the law has changed since the Twin Towers attack but last time I was in Paris I asked a gun dealer if things were the same there and he assured me nothing had changed.
nial

I bought a pre-1898 hammer gun at the CLA this summer. I used PDQ to import the gun, fast and easy, I would recommend them. Very professional.

Gnomon, you're right on where VAT is/isn't payable.

The VAT situation is quite simple. VAT is not payable on goods bought by a purchaser from outside the VAT area; however VAT is applicable to services provided within the VAT area, wherever the buyer is based.

Selling the gun to you is a service, so VAT is payable on the auctioneer's premium, but not on the gun itself.

The basic principle is that you can export a physical item (therefore no VAT payable) but you can't export a service (therefore VAT is payable).

The seller can charge you for the administrative side of not paying VAT, and may decline to remove the VAT from a low value item.

You need to ascertain the seller's VAT policy (some sellers are helpful, some are a PITA) and do the math(s) before buying.

N.

I have bought a number if rifles at auction in England. They usually ended up costing about $400.00 to $500.00 to have it boxed up and shipped to the nearest airport to you in the U.S.. It will save you money if you get your gun through customs yourself. Here's how to do it:

1. When you are notified that your gun has arrived at the
airport, drive up to the airline that flew it over and go
to their freight office.

2. Ask for the papers for your gun
3. Take the papers to the U.S. Customs office and have the
gun cleared through customs. They charge a fee and you
will need to find an agent who is familiar with the gun
laws in the U.S.
4. Take the papers back to the airline freight office and
pick up your gun. They typically charge a "handling fee"
which means a guy will hand you your gun and demand that
you pay them up to $20.00 for picking up and giving it
to you.
5. I have ONLY shipped in rifles that were pre 1898. I don't
know what the deal would be for a post 1898 gun.
6. If you have a broker get the gun through customs it will
be expensive!

I too am very concerned about the added on costs when you buy a gun at auction anymore. A 25% premium is outrageous.

I have contacted Holt's by phone many times and they will give you a very honest opinion of any gun that you ask them about and they will answer any question honestly. When I have purchased a gun through Holts (after a phone conversation with them about condition) I find that the rifles were actually somewhat better than described.

I have bought over 100 guns from auctions in the U.K.: Bonham's, Holt's and Gavin Gardiner. I have used John Farugia of Cheshire Gun Room, Stockport to collect the guns and ship them to me. The total cost was @ $100.00 USD per gun. The last was several years ago but I don't think the cost has gone up that much. John is an experienced gunsmith who will attend the auction preview & give you an honest assessment of a gun that you might wish to purchase and handle it all (except for the BATF Form 6 that you must do on any gun post 1898) John is a great guy to deal with. One word of caution, however. Do not let them ship your gun to Charlotte, NC. They stole a cased William Ford sidelock from me by holding the gun up in customs while adding on a daily storage charge until the storage charges were more than the value of the gun.

Best Regards, George

Best Regards, George

ONly way to ship to the States these days is by air freight . That will cost around £200 plus per gun.