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I have seen several references to the screw grip including folks identifying it just from the external photo of the action. Please tell me or show me (even better) what a screw grip is and its virtues etc.
It's basically a third bite or "grip" that works off the top lever screw.
It was a Webley patent. Screw grip guns continued to be produced by Webley & Scott after they merged. Easy to identify. If you remove the barrels, you'll see the threads in the slot in the breech face (hence the name "screw grip") where they engage the rib extension.
Just as easy to identify by the stepped rib extension....
1884 Webley & Brain patent. The action has a threaded spindle and a doll's head, a cross shaped doll's head or a simple step as a rib extension. the top lever bolts the step on the extension, providing a third grip (as well as the Purdey double under-bolt). Use by a huge number of gunmakers., usually built for the Trade by Webley/ & Scott. You will see it used extensively on double rifles by Army & Navy, Rigby, Atkin, Tolley etc and very commonly on boxlocks by William Evans, Army & Navy, and many others. It is a very good action, often made in very good quality. It is trickier to re-joint than actions without third bites. Look out for gaps at the top forward edge of the doll's head.
Jerry, the screwgrip action provided a very strong third bite and can be clearly seen in these photos of a Army & Navy (Webley). Hints that a gun is a screwgrip are the large diameter of the top lever head, the locking screw on the top lever screw, and the rib extension reaching all the way to the top lever.These are all characteristics of the action. Note the square threads on the spindle shaft--that's the screwgrip. (gun made in 1921)





Patent 3053 1882





Sorry for quality...

Pete
Originally Posted By: Small Bore
1884 Webley & Brain patent. The action has a threaded spindle and a doll's head,


Never saw one with a doll's head ?
Originally Posted By: HomelessjOe
Originally Posted By: Small Bore
1884 Webley & Brain patent. The action has a threaded spindle and a doll's head,


Never saw one with a doll's head ?


I have one. Army & Navy from about 1890. Doll's head, fluid steel barrels, black powder proofs. Don't have the gun with me so this is the only photo I can post.

hello,
re the army and navy shown above,i have always understood the top extension style on the above gun is known as a spade extension,as opposed to a dolls head,which is round.(circular)
that is the terminology around my gun circle,but we could of course be wrong!
cheers
mrwmartin
Originally Posted By: Mr W martin
hello,
re the army and navy shown above,i have always understood the top extension style on the above gun is known as a spade extension,as opposed to a dolls head,which is round.(circular)
that is the terminology around my gun circle,but we could of course be wrong!
cheers
mrwmartin


I'm no expert. Doll's head is the only term I have heard used. My gunsmiths have called it that, including Nick Makinson who has the gun right now. Spade extension is more accurately descriptive. Perhaps I'll change my ways.
hello again,
sorry,i wasnt trying to point score and i do realise
that the dolls head name does now appear to be the favoured and accepted terminology re any 'roundly' shaped extension.
sit the two extensions aside one another and i would describe one as dolls head and the other as spade,although i guess it matters very little.
cheers
mrwmartin
Thank you, having seen the photos, I know I have seen similar actioned guns before but didn't look deep enough. Thanks again for the education.
I've also seen doll's head/screw grip guns . . . but maybe I didn't look closely enough at the profile of the rib extension. Might have been like the "spade" variety pictured--and spade is certainly the right descriptive term for the profile in question.
Dolls head ,spade head ,club head all variations on a theme .
Another point is that if a gun has the Webley and Scott screw grip then it is almost certainly a Webley built gun that was delivered complete or sold as a barreled action. Webleys never sold action bodies on there own .
A Webley A&W-C First, screw grip boxlock double rifle with ejectors and intercepting sears, built and finished by Webley, but branded George Gibbs:



A very fine rifle indeed. Built to highest standards. Hell for stout.

Curl
Bringing this thread to the top for Granger.
I have a 16-bore screw-grip boxlock ejector that is very petite, weighing in at just 5lbs13 (w/28 tubes and a 14 7/8 LOP to a horn butplate). It is marked as being made at the Preston Branch of the W. Richards Business. Now, I know that in another section of this forum, W. Richards is roundly dismissed as being a maker of shoddy firearms, but this one is a gem, with cutaway fences, lovely engraving, a Deeley pushrod forend, and a diamond-shaped grip. It is No. 1 of a pair that was made in 1905, and from reading Mr. Hadoke's new book on boxlocks, I'd have to say it was marketed as a "best" gun.

My question is this: because of the screw-grip, is this a Webley & Scott action that was finished by W. Richards, or was it made by someone like Skimin & Woods (who built many of the 2-inch actions and many other lightweight boxlocks)?
Referenece your W. Richards, like many makers of what we see as field grade guns they still made some very nice quality work.

As you know they have some lovely children
Lloyd, it is my understanding that Webley & Scott did not license anyone else to use their patent for the screwgrip action. Therefore I believe all screwgrip actions originated in the Webley works.
Mr.Wood: Thank you. I suspect that you are right. So...Webly & Scott supplied barreled actions to the other companies (even pairs of weapons?), who then stocked, engraved, and finished the firearms? They then, of course, put their names and addresses on them(?). I knew that Army & Navy did this, as well as William Evans, but I didn't (and still don't)know the level of participation of the many other makers, even the provincial ones. Is there any way to differentiate between who provided what action (aside from the screw-grip ones)? I have handled a number of lightweight boxlock guns, 2-inch 12s and even standard 2 1/2s (ie. Lincoln Jeffries), that were clearly made by Skimin & Wood. Thomas Turner made some very lightweight guns that were easy to identify as being sourced from Westley Richards. Were there others?
Lloyd, let's see if Smallbore (Diggory Hadoke) will chime in. He's probably the best authority to answer your question. I believe his new book on box locks address' this.

While Webley would supply barreled actions in the white to the trade I do believe by far the majority were completely finished in the Webley & Scott works, carrying the name and serial number of whoever ordered it.
Joe, wouldn't the patent have run out at some point--after which others could have built screw grip guns? In France, Verney-Carron patented the helice action, but there are plenty of guns other than V-C that used it after the patent expired. Same deal with the A&D action. I don't think anyone building guns on the A&D action today is paying anyone else for the rights to use the design.
I my be wrong, but my 1894 Remingtons have an extended stepped rib without any screw visable from the breech face. Did they alter the idea a bit so they could use the same three locking bits [ two under the barrels and one on top ]? Paul
Couple of points. Note the photo of the gun with "Patent" around the thumb lever. Every gun I have seen so marked was a
Screw Grip, but not every Screw Grip was so marked. May have to do with production vs patent dates.

Second, I don't believe W&S used the Screw Grip action for best work guns. The top of the Screw Grip line was a very nice gun, indeed, but not quite a best work.
The W&S screw grip was as far as I am aware was particular to W&S . Other makers considered it it be bulky and unnecessary ,as did the likes of Greener who still promoted their cross bolt . Webley made a large variety of guns ,not all had screw grip nuts.
The barrel extension with or without a dolls [club,spade] head is a common feature of guns made all over the world ,each maker establishing a "house" style that they stuck to in some cases for generations .They also adapted and modified others ideas as their own . Scott's square "improved" cross bolt is IMHO a much better design than the original ,but guns are still built using round cross bolts .
The barrel extension in conjunction with what we loosely term a Scott style top lever if fitted properly will give a gun extra bite but this should not be confused with lever actions that use an extension with some form of bolting as with some American guns ,that I am not familiar with , we see very few in the UK .But the average made American gun has a longer action body than European guns ,this coupled with a top locking mechanism negates the need for the bottom bolt . Top bites on English guns were after the development of the bottom bolt always in addition and not the principle locking device. Hidden third bites and the eventual abandonment of top extensions in most guns was as much to do with cosmetic appearance as any thing else ,this is seen in later Webley guns that still had a grip nut but it served no useful purpose other than in the 50's through till there demise the cost of redesigning and re tooling was considered to great to warrant any further changes .
Originally Posted By: Rocketman

Second, I don't believe W&S used the Screw Grip action for best work guns. The top of the Screw Grip line was a very nice gun, indeed, but not quite a best work.


The Screw grip was referred to as their "Proprietary Action"......long way from the best of anything.
hello jOe,
the propriety action was a basic grade, on offer for sale alongside several other different quality and specification grades of screw grip.i am surprised you are unaware of that or have chosen to ignore the fact.
of course i am fully aware that w&s screwgrip guns are a long way from best guns and whilst nowhere near the quality of hand made top tier bests,most people agree they are pretty good on reliability and looks, both in boxlock and sidelock variants.
cheers
mrwmartin
Originally Posted By: HomelessjOe
Originally Posted By: Rocketman

Second, I don't believe W&S used the Screw Grip action for best work guns. The top of the Screw Grip line was a very nice gun, indeed, but not quite a best work.


The Screw grip was referred to as their "Proprietary Action"......long way from the best of anything.


Mr Martin, this is just our resident nattering nabob of negativity doing his thing. I think the concept inherent in your salutary "cheers" is lost on him. LOL
hello canvasback,
yes,as a supporter of screwgrips i was hooked rather easily by jOe.im afraid i am rather old fashioned and still imagine (or hope)that people are genuine.
cheers
mrwmartin
Originally Posted By: Mr W martin
hello canvasback,
yes,as a supporter of screwgrips i was hooked rather easily by jOe.im afraid i am rather old fashioned and still imagine (or hope)that people are genuine.
cheers
mrwmartin


I have one myself, an Army & Navy from around 1889 that I quite like. Still haven't got around to getting some additional info from the U of Edinburgh but I do have it in right now with an Birmingham trained smith getting a few niggling problems sorted out. Looking forward to being able to use it again next fall.
hello again canvasback,
i am almost certain that army & navy records are held at glasgow university.(not edinburgh)
hope you get gun back in action.
cheers
mrwmartin
Originally Posted By: Mr W martin
hello again canvasback,
i am almost certain that army & navy records are held at glasgow university.(not edinburgh)
hope you get gun back in action.
cheers
mrwmartin


You are right. Just a mental slip during the Christmas to New years down time.
My William Evans sidelock (1898) has the Webley screw grip. From reading the posts here one gets the impression that this grip was used exclusively on boxlocks. Is it an anomaly for it to be found on sidelocks?
hello krakow kid,
the webley screwgrip was used in vast numbers of sidelocks as well as boxlocks,hence "the ubiquitous screwgrip".
cheers
mrwmartin
The William Evans sidelock is usually described as a second tier gun, whether stocked to the fences or not. What tier is a similar gun with the Webley or W&C Scott name on it? Did any first tier makers ever purchase the Webley screw grip action?
Originally Posted By: Mr W martin
hello jOe,
the propriety action was a basic grade, on offer for sale alongside several other different quality and specification grades of screw grip.i am surprised you are unaware of that or have chosen to ignore the fact.


I'm fully aware of it Mr. Martin....

I find it kinda strange that you can get that idea from my post. What I was saying is that just because a gun has a screw grip action doesn't make it the best of anything.

Did you by chance go to school with the Canadian twit that sang back up for you ?
Originally Posted By: HomelessjOe


Did you by chance go to school with the Canadian twit that sang back up for you ?


Morning jOe, I see you have neither a sense of humour nor a good grasp of reality this morning. Hope you end up having a better day than it appears to have started for you.
You are the twit that attacked me....just an eye for an eye bud.
You will see Webley and Scott Grip nuts on guns bearing many names including Evans ,Army and Navy , Dickson , Grant ,Lancaster , Atkin , Lang , Churchill , Jeffrey, Westley Richards . You will not see Purdey , Boss or Holland and Holland in shotgns but possibly in double rifle as they made large numbers of these for other makers as well as the longer bodied Paradox's .
You will see Webley and Scott Grip nuts on guns bearing many names including Evans ,Army and Navy , Dickson , Grant ,Lancaster , Atkin , Lang , Churchill , Jeffrey, Westley Richards . You will not see Purdey , Boss or Holland and Holland in shotgns but possibly in double rifle as they made large numbers of these for other makers as well as the longer bodied Paradox's .
hello again jOe,
i offer apologies if i have posted anything to your dislike,i was trying to be helpful and have never claimed webleys to be anywhere near top quality.
please do me the courtesy of omitting myself from any form of gamesmanship you enjoy.
sincere best wishes,

mr w martin
The following photo will answer a number of questions.




Woodward is a BV1 maker (the market values them about the same as Boss, H&H, and Purdey), this is a Propritary action (although, JW could just as well have ordered any of a number of Screw Grip variations), and it is a perfectly fine gun, but not a best work gun. The articulated front trigger and the stock do not appear OE. I shoot it frequently.
Nice gun...what's the C P stand for ?
Don, that is an interesting boxlock. Can we see pictures of the triggers and stock?
Joe - Yeah, that seemingly engraved monogram leapt out at me as well. Seems strange to think it was standard, yet the gun, despite its pedigree, wouldn't seem to warrant custom engraving. Could anyone shed some light on this?

I also agree with your assessment: Nice gun
Originally Posted By: HomelessjOe
Nice gun...what's the C P stand for ?




obviOusly "Crappus prOpieterus"
What I know about this gun from the Woodward record books:

- delivered 24 Oct 1910
- to Shulto S. Ogilvie
- A&D top lever hammerless steel barrels with extended rib
- (W&S)
- 30" bbls @ 3# 3 3/4 oz (currently 3# 3 oz)
- left 0.733/0.700 right 0.733/0.731
- stock 2"-1 1/4"-3/16"-5/8"-3/4" 15"-14 7/8"-15 1/2"

What else I know:

- the case had a paper tag marked "Fusil 12 bore"
- the case is battered green canvas (been around a bit)
- the lower tang has been repaired across the front screw
- the forearm has a metal "P" hat matches the monogram "P"
- the case has a monogram "AB" on a rond brass disc

What I suspect:

-the wood is a restock in real deal French
- the restock wood is too high a grade to normally be OE
- the articulated front trigger does not look OE
- neither monogram is OE
- the gun has spent time in France

note the half-round wood inlet into the action at the tang-fence junction - earmark of the Propriatary



note the repair across the screw hole


forearm metal monogram


note the wood does not look like a grade appropriate to the Propriatary grade gun


Suspected non-OE articulated front trigger



Did I miss any questions?

DDA





Nice boxlock. I like it a lot. What a buttstock.
You sure it's not Bastone Walnut ?
Here's a lower-end sidelock on what I think is a screw grip:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/P-Webley-Son-Sidelock-in-12-Gauge.cfm?gun_id=100309442

OWD
Mah vote's fer Bass Tone...

Wher's mah gimme cap?
Considering the spade rib extension and the "Webley Patent", I'd agree.

DDA
Originally Posted By: obsessed-with-doubles
Here's a lower-end sidelock on what I think is a screw grip:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/P-Webley-Son-Sidelock-in-12-Gauge.cfm?gun_id=100309442

OWD


Nice gun, good price.
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