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Posted By: Rookhawk Vintage shooting - a proper scoring system? - 03/19/12 11:46 PM
It seems like there is a need for a just handicap system for scoring vintage shoots. You'd think the cylinder bore guys should get handicap points when compared to tighter chokes.

I notice the guys that win these friendly games are shooting JP Sauer or Elsie's choked Full in both.

Anyone thought about how to create scoring for vintage competitions that evens the odds? Wouldn't it make sense for the vintages to build a rules system so all vintage guns can compete on the merits of the shooter, not just picking a gun that's a ringer for the particular clay

Sincerely,

Sore loser
smile
I have read that some vintage shoots allow spreader loads.

Best,

Mike
No handicap needed. whoever breaks the most targets wins. If you think you are are equipment disadvantaged, get the proper equipment. Period!
You mean there are people who shoot vintage guns at clays and keep score?! How quaint...
Originally Posted By: Rookhawk
It seems like there is a need for a just handicap system for scoring vintage shoots. You'd think the cylinder bore guys should get handicap points when compared to tighter chokes.

I notice the guys that win these friendly games are shooting JP Sauer or Elsie's choked Full in both.

Anyone thought about how to create scoring for vintage competitions that evens the odds? Wouldn't it make sense for the vintages to build a rules system so all vintage guns can compete on the merits of the shooter, not just picking a gun that's a ringer for the particular clay

Sincerely,

Sore loser smile


So, sore loser, you think that it is the full choked guns that are winning the shoots, eh? Not the shooter behind it? The reason those guns are winners is that the guys shooting them are better shots, and take the competition more seriously. Part of the seriousness is manifest in using guns with, what they consider, plenty of choke to break any target they may see. More of it is manifest in their dedication to practice and improving themselves so that they can take advantage of those tight chokes.

The same shooters winning many of these vintage shoots could, most likely, win them using a cylinder choked gun, IMO. That's because most of the target presentations are "soft", and not long targets needing lots of choke. Those who choose to use the tightly choked guns may handicap themselves, in a way, on these close targets. I compete in vintage shoots whenever I can, and choose to use tight chokes. If I miss a fast rabbit at 15 yards because my pattern is only 10" across, I accept it as shooter error.

I totally agree with Walt. If you want to win, get the equipment to do it with, and practice 'til you can. There is no shortage of suitable vintage guns out there to be had.

What you are asking for, a system to even the odds, is just a way of taking away the rewards from the man who put in the pain to get the gain.

SRH
Hello Stan, I think you mostly wrong when you say---


So, sore loser, you think that it is the full choked guns that are winning the shoots, eh? Not the shooter behind it? The reason those guns are winners is that the guys shooting them are better shots, and take the competition more seriously. Part of the seriousness is manifest in using guns with, what they consider, plenty of choke to break any target they may see. More of it is manifest in their dedication to practice and improving themselves so that they can take advantage of those tight chokes.

Practice and practice and more practice will not beat being born with the gift. I have seen probably 10 or 12 shotgun shooters with the gift in my lifetime. No amount of practice can beat having the gift. The most recent young shooter with the gift is a young man named Grant. With very very little shooting experience he can hit just about everything. In April of 2011 Grant shot a perfect score of 30 out of 30 on the five stand used for the LCS vs Parker shoot in Sanford, NC. I have 45 years of practice and I am getting worse now not better. The gift is fading. If a shooter has some talent practice can help but practice will never beat the gift. By the way the gift applies to shooting 9 ball on a bar room pool table too.

Good Shooting To You, Jent
Jent,

I know Grant Rosser, shot against him last fall at the Southern S x S Fall Classic at Georgetown. But, we will have to respectfully disagree, I guess. Of course, it's tough to beat being born with a gift of superior eye-hand coordination, but I'll take a less gifted man with tons of determination any day.

I'm 60 years old, and have been struggling hard to improve my clay shooting skills for 10-12 years now. I don't have the gift, but I am determined, and if you'll check the results of last years' Fall classic you'll see that the old man held his own pretty good against Grant. I hope we meet up again, maybe next month at Sanford. I love competing with the old guns!!!

Jon Truitt is another very skilled vintage sporting clays shooter, and a gentleman to boot. I was honored to shoot against them both.

SRH

P.S. Ever seen a natural born shooter win the Olympic Gold with just a gift? No, a young person with a great desire to win, and good eye-hand coordination, practices for years, shooting hundreds of thousands of rounds under coaching, attempting to perfect his/her skill. THEN, they win.

Love ya, Stan.

I had no particular talent for flying either.

20,000 hours later, I can make an airplane sit up and talk.

Experience, determination, and sheer willpower beat born in talent.

In the long run.
Posted By: Hoof Re: Vintage shooting - a proper scoring system? - 03/20/12 04:27 AM
I apparently know so little (or shoot so poorly) I considered full choke guns to be a handicap shooting clays. I try not to shoot sporting clays with anything tighter than modified, the gun I have now is CYL/ IMP CYL.
CHA
Hoof,

I consider full choke a handicap at sporting clays as well. The only time I shoot them is when I want to enter an event at a vintage shoot, for example the 16 ga. event, and the only vintage gun I have in 16 ga. is an Elsie with extra full chokes. my "go-to" chokes are mod/mod., but occasionally use less when it fits the course better.

It seems to me that as competitive s.c. shooters improve many of them graduate toward tighter chokes. There is a great confidence level that comes with turning clays into puff-balls with tighter chokes.

Different chokes for different fo'kes.

SRH
The guys to watch out for are the ones who both have "the gift" AND take things very seriously. I'd submit that Mr. Ted Williams was one such, in the sport of baseball.
Vintage clays should be kept as simple and as fun as possible. I shoot with the Rocky Mountain Vintagers, and score keeping is optional. It's about the guns, lads, the guns!
I agree with Walt Snyder 100% and I am NOT a clays shooter. About 8 years ago I shot a round of 50 SC targets at Blending Pines- my first SC shoot. I shot a 12 M12 field gun 28" Full, three other guys shot various 12 O/U's with chokes tubes, and an area gunsmith shot a beautiful M42 .410, also full choke. I broke 33/50, the three dudes with the O/U's broke 37-39 out of 50, but the man with the .410 broke 43/50 and was High shooter for that round. Handicap=-schmandicap- he already had enough going in with that pipsqueak .410 and yet he beat us all- Go figure. RWTF
Chuck H would probably say: " Told ya so"
"Vintage clays should be kept as simple and as fun as possible."

I couldn't agree more!

See the target, break the target. The more I break, the funner it is! Funnest is when I break more than anybody else.
Geez, I thought a vintage gun and 7/8oz loads were acceptable excuses for mediocre shooting. I would feel stupid, shooting as I do, with a Z-sport.
Posted By: Hoof Re: Vintage shooting - a proper scoring system? - 03/20/12 05:00 PM
Originally Posted By: RyanF
Geez, I thought a vintage gun and 7/8oz loads were acceptable excuses for mediocre shooting. I would feel stupid, shooting as I do, with a Z-sport.


Now all my secrets are out. It usually goes like this;
Buddy - "I beat you by 15 targets."
Me - "I am shooting a 105 year old hammer gun with the wrong chokes (regardless of what they might be)."
Buddy - "Oh yeah, you shoot that thing pretty well."
CHAZ
All jokes aside, I do think that the vintage shooter has a decided disadvantage that deserves a compensating system to even things up a bit.

I shoot a non-selectable single trigger choked cylinder/mod on a a clay presentation that is thrown at about 45 yards. It's a wicked presentation to say the least. I find I often have to shoot the clays in reverse order from what is practical to get the proper choke on the proper clay.

If people are swapping chokes or guns mid-course to get a better score, there deserves to be a handicapping system for those that stick with what they've got, shoot lighter loads and are sticking with the chokes (or non-chokes) they have.

Am I the only person that thinks every choke down from whatever is optimal for that course deserves a +1 handicap per choke or some other system?

I guess it's just sour grapes for me because I can beat these guys with their own guns, but I have to take sh&t from them for shooting a less efficiently choked gun for the courses.
If breaking the most targets wasn't a goal of the shoot, why shoot? Why not just smoke cigars and drink brandy and "hangar fly" (talking about something you're not doing)?

On the otherhand, organizers might want to consider shifting the focus a bit and adding awards for fun stuff like: largest smoke screen (black powder guys), lowest score, highest score per gauge, most double crossing shots broken with one shot, most zero score stations, etc. You get the idea.

I recall a aerobatic flying club I belonged to had a lowest score without zeroing any maneuvers for rookie year competitors that was given at each contest. It was a much covetted leather belt with all the aerobatic symbols tooled into it.

Okay Chuck and Rook: I admit to using a superposed when bragging rights are at stake. And, I'm saving up for a Z-sport…
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