A very warm hello from north of the Bay of Bengal. This is my first post although I have been a spider on the wall for some time. That was largely because I really have not enough knowledge about shotguns to contribute but only a wealth of questions. I have tried to read as many topics as I can on this forum to try and learn but frankly while all of it has been absorbing quite a bit of it is beyond me. Any way now I have joined up I would be very grateful for any information and light on my questions regarding the W W Greener 12 gauge shotgun detailed below.

The gun is a 12 gauge W W Greener non ejector shotgun in F4 grade. That is the first question. Just what is an F4 grade?

The serial number is 48914. Is it possible to date it from this?

The barrels are inscribed with

"W W Greener 68 haymarket london & St. Mary's Square Birmingham, Winner at the London Gun Trials 1875 1877 1878 & 1879"

The chambers are 2 1/2 inch by measurement but the flats of the barrels have no markings whatsoever showing them to be such.

The barrels are marked "Sir Whitworth's steel".

The flats of the barrels themselves are only marked with the following (see pics):

13

Two crossed sceptres marks

choke.

There are no nitro proof markings, no service pressure marks, no max load marks.

Does this mean that the gun was proofed for black powder only? It seems rather surpising given thae overall makeup of the gun!

I would truly appreciate any light being shed on this aspect of the gun and if possible an idea as to when it was made.



















I'm sorry for the quality of the pics but they were taken in my local gunsmiths shop and the lighting ws not the best. If you need any more photos I'll try and gt them tomorrow.

There is one further fundamental problem with the gun. The left barrel has a dent 12 inches from the breech. I have read a number of threads here about dents and the general opinion, as far as I can make out, is that dents if properly raised will leave the barrels very usable but if you look at the pic you will see it is about where the fingers of the leading hand would be when you mounted the gun. Would you use it provide the rest of the gun is sound?



Thanks for your time and help.

All the best

Skeeterbd

Nice gun,made around 1900, probably earlier, the proof marks date to 1897,a high grade Greener,Facil Princeps gun and quite the looker from your photos.
When you have the dent fixed have the gunsmith measure the gun barrels to check the bore size and the wall thickness to ensure your safety.
Enjoy

First of all, welcome to the forum.

F4 was a 40 guinea gun built on the 1880 patent Facile Princeps action with Greener's 'treble wedge fast' locking system. Your gun was made in 1900.

I cannot see any nitro proof marks on your gun from the photos, though the proof marks suggest it was proofed under 1896-1904 rules in Birmingham. It is a nominal 12-bore with tight bores (hence the 13 stamp). Chambers are 2 1/2".

This is a nice quality, well made gun.

Removal of the dent will depend on wall thickness and the skill of the man you engage to raise it. It looks quite sharp: a 'soft' dent can be raised with less residual effect.

The barrel steel refers to the fluid pressed forging system devised by Sir Joseph Whitworth, it heralded the replacement of damascus steel as a gun barrel material.

Skeeterbd, welcome to a great site where there is a vast amount of knowledge.

From the markings on your barrels water table of "13" that would be bore. It could be from .710 to .719, I believe. Anything over that and it would be out of proof (from honing). I can't quite make out what the choke markings are.
Sir Joseph Whitworth steel was the best you could get.

An F4 was a medium priced gun at 35/40 gns., and is the Third System of Grading from 1893-1903.
Your serial number dates it to 1900, and there were a total of 919 guns made that year.

The dent should be easy enough to fix and I'm sure it will not hurt anything, but the barrels wall thickness should be checked even if it didn't have the dent.

Good luck with it and thanks for sharing, and I'm sure there will be other more knowledgeable people helping you out.

Skeeterbd:
Regarding the use of your gun as-is: Best not to until the dent is raised. Although thousands of guns have been shot with worse dents than this. That said, please consider any dent to be a barrel obstruction. The larger the dent, the more serious the obstruction.
Common sense says we should never fire a gun with a barrel obstruction.
Your Greener is a fine one. I'd find a top level smith to fix it -- or even send it back to the UK. Smallbore's operation will do well.

Skeeterbd,
That is a nice gun. Get the dent fixed properly, have the barrels and action checked out by a competent double gun smith, find the proper shells and use it. These old doubles will become an addiction, they are really fun to shoot.

Chris

Thanks to all for the invaluable information that you have passed on to me and the warm welcome. The dent will be raised properly. It occurred when the gunsmith accidentally dropped the barrels in front of me! Otherwise the barrels are as new and the action is fine. It has been around in my family for some time and came to me as a gift from a senior cousin although I'm sure it wasn't new when he got it.

When you say use it with appropriate cartridges, would Eley Grand Prix 1 1/8oz loads be alright or is this gun for BP only. There are no nitro markings on the flats!

One last question. Did Greener always use the elephant mark on the barrels from the beginning or did it come in later. I have been told something about a circus elephant!

Thanks again

All the best

Skeeterbd

Nice gun,I have grown very fond of the Facile Princeps action .
I believe the Elephant trade mark has been around almost as long as the WW Greener firm.I don't think anything has ever surfaced to prove a connection with a circus Elephant being shot however.
Did you perhaps say "gosh,how unfortunate"or some such when he dropped the barrels?
Its only BP proved. I would get them nitro proved.They should pass with flying colours.

GDU

The story of the circus elephant I am told is true. According to Boothroyd: "Prior to the First World war, E.C. Greener, was invited by the Metropolitan Police to shoot an elephant outside Caaring Cross Station.

The elephant, belonging to a circus, had become restive and uncontrollable, and was duly shot. The head and trunk was presented to Mr. Greener who adopted it as a trade mark, and was shown on letterheads etc." Who knows, it might be true. You have a nice Greener.

Best Regards, George

that must of been more than a little awkward ,when he dropped the bbls..jeesus!..oh man,you both must have felt terrible.....but crap does happen... he should do a really good job of getting that dent out!!!!
Thats a lovely Greener...grand Guns
cheers franc

Do not shoot the 1&1/8th oz Eleys. Do not shoot more than 1oz loads and look for psi of 7k or less or velocities of 1,100fps or less. You don't want to beat the crap out of this fine old gun.
And forget about stories that come from Boothroyd about "E.C.Greener".

Thanks again to all for your help an advice.

I actually did not say anything to the gunsmith. There was a pained silence and then he quietly apologized and naturally said he would raise the dent! His grandfather was trained by the Manton himself who set up the Calcutta gun shop of Manton and co. He was trained by his grandfather initially and then his father. He does good work and has raised many a dent. His shop has been going for over a hundred years now and has been looking after my family's guns for just as long.

All the best

Skeeterbd

Skeetergd,

The family history of the gun and your family's relationship to the gunsmith and his ancestors are a wonderful account. The Little Man will someday cherish the gun as you have and hopefully many more jungle fowl, ducks and chaga will fall to its report. Best, Gil

My observations on your Greener gun are as follows,
Guns marked F4 fall into Greener's third system of grading and are applicable to guns made in the period 1893-1903.Gun #48914 was made in 1900 which fits into the grading system time frame.
The F4 non- ejector is listed at price 35 gns;[=37.9 pounds] Most makers of the era charged 5 pounds extra for Whitworth Steel barrels. Likely your gun was a special order.
One concern that I have is that the slots in the action that accept the barrel lugs appear to have been peened over to stop side play in the barrels .This issue in should be reviewed by your gunsmith at the time the barrel dent is raised.
The triangle stamp on the gun barrel flats is an indicator of chamber length. A 12C in the triangle indicates a maximum 3 inch chamber. This Mark is usually seen on 2 1/2 chambered guns. If the mark in the triangle mark reads LC a chamber length exceeding 3 inches is present. Chamber length should be confirmed by your gunsmith.
Your gun is Black powder proof tested.[ not Nitro].
A nice early Greener.