Slightly off topic, but related to my previous thread about tightening chokes in a double, what would be the best $500 or under backup 16b gun (notice I didn't say it necessarily had to be a double) that would a)be able to handle almost any factory load if called for, and b)have some measure of choke flexibility (no fixed choke single barrel guns). The gun would be an all purpose backup/clays/waterfowl/rainy day gun to give me a few more options to go with my much loved 30" Lefever, which I primarily use as an upland hun/chukar/pheasant gun. I'm thinking either a Lefever nitro (it would be nice to have a pair of Lefevers), a bps 16b (Browning is coming out with them this year) to match my bps 12b (I like the tang safety and bottom ejection), or maybe even an A-5. There's an older solid rib A-5 at a local shop with a poly choke (I know, they're ugly, but functional) and sling for $350 that is pretty tempting, and it has a great "patina." Thoughts?

I truly believe everybody needs at least one 16 gauge Auto 5. A solid rib A-5 with a poly choke would be classic. If it is in decent shape, get it. I cant see how you can get hurt for $350.00. When I was a kid my best friends grandad had one similar to what you are talking about and he let me use it one day, beat the hell out of my 20 gauge H&R topper jr! Kicked less too.

I'll add a Remington model 31 to the list.

Remington is making the 870 again in 16 gauge. It's ultra reliable and a heck of a lot cheaper that 500 bucks. Come to think of it, I think I'll order one tomorrow.

I think the 870 is a bit more than $500.00 if it is new. But if I had to buy a gun and only had $500.00 to do it with, I'd probably have to opt for a pellet gun with a scope and laser. Just perfect for night hunting.

Have to second the vote on the Rem Model 31 and add the Winchester Model 12. Both are built on "true" 16 ga frames and consequently carry a lot better than a 12 ga of the same model. It might be as plain as a mud fence by the standards of most double fans, but I usually shoot my plain barrel (i.e., ribless) Mod 31 16 ga as well or better than any other gun I've ever owned.

I don't know a thing about these "Russingtons", but it seems interesting and...well, cheap. I would like to hear other's thoughts on this O/U for the 16ga lovers- appears to be feature laden and priced too good to be true. Maybe it handles like a brick on the end of a 2x4?

Remington's Spartan™ Gunworks -- working with Russia's premier gun maker is offering a… 16 gauge … over/under SPR310 line with a MSRP of $517 with single selective trigger, auto ejectors, C-IC-M-F choke tubes, 28" ventilated ribbed barrels and a cataloged weight of 7-1/4 pounds. Note that Spartan™ choke tubes are not interchangeable with Rem© Chokes.

I found one someone didn't like his so much, selling it after only 10 boxes of shells (buy it now $399):

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=7850877

How about a nice used Ithaca M37 Featherlight?

marklart,

Did I read you correctly, a 16 gauge BPS?

Kind regards,

THERE'S the meat and potatoes, right on there Gunplumber, the venerable classic Ithaca 37. I have a nearly mint one I got off GB for a paltry 250.00 (a 1960 model) that my wife walked out back one day while Dave and I were busting clays. She'd never even shouldered a shotgun ONCE in her life, but wanted to try. We let three clays go one at a time, she dusted all three. We were real excited and wanted her to continue, she just shrugged and said "nah, I just wanted to see if I could do it. Seems awful easy, I don't know why you guys even bother" and walked back inside.....

I think I am with Randy on this one. The model 37 is a very neat gun. You get the bottom ejection you like in a much more minimalist package than the Browning - particularly in the older guns. I personally am a really big fan of the Model 12 in 16, but a really nice one will run a bit more than $500, though a servicable one for not that much more. The old A5 "Sweet Sixteen" is one of the classic guns of the middle half of the 20th century. Great guns, though no A5 was ever accused of being light or particularly elegant. My only caution would be that the occasional Browning can be a little cranky. I think I would cruise the web and your local shops and grab either the Ithaca or the Winchester depending upon where I found the first best deal.

If you don't mind having the polychoke you can find a 16ga Ithaca 37 with a polychoke on gunbroker from time to time. I have a 1950 16 with the polychoke. I have less than $100 in it. It is extremely ugly and the stock has been repaired but it works great and the polychoke is functional.

No such thing as an all purpose gun.

True enough, but, with enough barrels and an Ithaca 37, you can get close.
Best,
Ted

M12 with Polychoke.

Sam

Where were you a week ago? I just sold a Nitro 16 for under $300.00. It needed some cosmetic TLC but we like doing that right?

Nitro special. Good for those "nasty days". Autos and slides--to many moving parts for snow,ice and rainy times. I drag an Nitro 16 around the property here on my polaris,tractor/PU. Shoots anything and easy clean and maint. Works for geese,duck and cootontail round here. I have a very nice N.Spl. to sell But its 12 ga.-----I am gonna be buried with all my 16's! An Ithaca Western will work for this kinda stuff too.

I have a 16ga Sportsman 48 that balances 4 inches in front of the trigger and weighs under 6.5lbs. I hunt ducks and late-season partrige with it sometimes, usually in really ugly weather well below sub-freezing, and it has never ever had a hiccup. I don't like the idea of an auto, but I can't bear the thought of parting with it...especially since I paid a whopping $250 for it. It cycles both hot 1 1/8 ouncers (heaviest I've tried) and my ultra-light 7/8 oz reloads with aplomb.

Mike Orlen can choke tube it for not much money at all if you want the flexibility and it doesn't have a polychoke already.

I have never owned a nitro, a 32, 37, auto 5, or a model 12, all venerable guns. The $300 nitro would have been hard to pass up. So will the new 16ga bps built on the 20 ga frame when it comes out this year, in an upland model with straight stock no less. Except it is new. The 16ga. site has info on it from the recent shot show.

I'm in no huge hurry, so it will be a fun search. Thanks for all the opinions.

The post mentions rainy day use. 870's, 1100's, 391's, Nova's and other fairly modern guns are easy to pull apart and dry out if soaked. Some of the other guns mentioned take more work to pull apart. Nice as they are, removal of the trigger, carrier, etc. from an A-5 or M37 is more involved than pushing out a couple of pins and popping out the whole trigger assembly.

For those who use the older designs, how do you maintain a very wet gun? Omitting salt sprayed or dropped in the water. Do you have methods of drying them that let you avoid taking them apart much beyond barrel removal?

I have a 16ga Ithaca - Western Arms Corp. (basically a Nitro Special with an iron receiver?) that I've used for snipe, quail, dove, ducks and turkey. It's choked a little too tightly and it's a little too heavy (7lbs.) but it handles 1 1/8oz. loads just fine. I generally use TM through it for ducks. I've put #6 (in your face teal) and #7 steel (snipe) through it, too. It seems to "blow its pattern" with the steel, which is fine with me...as long as it doesn't blow anything else!~)

I must admit that I'm intrigued with the idea of a BPS in 16, since I seem to shoot my straight stocked 12 as well as anything I have and I need as much help with my shooting as I can get!

Sure there is. Both the 16 gauge and 12 gauge fit the bill, at least in the lower 48.

In Indiana my 2 3/4 chambered 12 gauge has taken:

Deer (slugs)geese, ducks, quail, pheasant, rabbits, doves, squirrel, crows, coots, and snipe. If I hunted them I also could take coyotes and fox.

Loads and choke can be adjusted for just about any game.

Todd

J. Hall---I've never had a double apart in nearly 70 years of gunning, not even when retrieved from three to five fathoms of salt water.

Maintaining a wet gun is normal; gunning for ducks is bad weather, period. Wipe 'em, clean 'em, oil sparingly as soon as possible, always before anything else.

There is no rust on my guns, and Nova Scotia is a raft jutting into the North Atlantic.

I agree with Mike: no such thing as an all-purpose gun; too many compromises, avoid like the plague.

Regards, King

In concert with King's post, I don't beleive in seeking an "all purpose gun". Buy the gun that you need/desire for the immediate task and determine if you need/desire a different gun later when a different task presents itself. Can you hunt quail with a 12g 3 1/2" mag 391 Extrema? You bet. Would I want to? I'd rather hunt quail with a bb gun.

There is a difference between an "all-purpose" gun and a gun that is ideally suited to all purposes. Some people don't have enough money for a dedicated quail gun, a dedicated duck gun, a dedicated goose gun, and a dedicated deer gun.

Although a 12 gauge 2 3/4 chambered gun can perform very adequately on all of the game listed, each quarry would have a different "ideal" gun and cartridge. BUT, as a "poor" college kid I managed to take whatever game I hunted with the same shotgun. It made a fine "all-purpose" gun for me.

Todd

Chuck, your "all-purpose" reminds me of my dear uncle in Boston. He pronounced horse as hoss. As a child, I'd say, No, Uncle Bert, it's horse. "Well, a hoss is a hoss to me." Regards, King

King: good to know guns are not too fragile. A gun pulled out of salt water might be washed off with fresh water to get rid of the salt. Then on to dry and oil.

In drizzle in Idaho; the A-Bolt stainless I had seemed fairly impervious. Stayed in a place that had dry electric heat. After a few hours indoors the A-Bolt was dry inside when taken apart. A low humidity enviroment can dry a gun quickly. If it dries before rust starts, that would likely take care of it.

Pumps and autos can get seeds, twigs, etc. inside as they are carried through cover, which could stop the gun, as did a stray shot pellet wedged into the carrier of a Gold auto. The trigger was easily pulled out and cleared. It would have needed a backup if not cleared up so easily.

I'm with you Todd, there are guns that could be considered all purpose guns. They might not be the best and any one thing, but they can do everything reasonably well (not considering serious competition). I have a 12 ga. Beretta Whitewing with choked tubes and 3" chambers and weighs just under 7 lbs. There is not much it can't do pretty darn well.

Or a Winchester Model 12 with a Polychoke and a wart or two. Just make sure whatever you get is not so old that it can't eject 2.75 inch hulls. TT

Ozpa,
That's why they make H&R's and Mossbergs in various gauges. Besides, if money was critical, 16g would not be in the consideration as 12g is cheaper and more commonly available on sale.

There is a vast difference in an "All Purpose Gun" which does not exist & a "Multi Purpose Gun" which does. A 12 or 16 ga weighing 6 3/4-7 lbs & capable of handling shot charges up through 1¼ oz (low velocity for recoil) Will handle an amazing variety of game.

marklart,

I would look at one of the new(warrentied) cheapo Turkish guns or used Spanish if your feeling lucky(you did say back-up gun, right?). SXS or O/U choked IC/M....should safely handle hard no-tox at M/F patterns for waterfowl and throw the designated patterns with lead for upland and targets.

You would really be set if you handload....otherwise a 12ga 2 3/4" as per Miller would come very close to a true all around gun with some creative use of factory loads.

Some of the Savage/Fox guns might fit the bill as well.

Best,
Mark

From sometime in the mid 1970s until perhaps 1981 or so, my only repeating shotgun was a Remington model 17. "All Around" use would be limited in scope in my world at the time, but, included early season ducks (lead was legal) grouse, woodcock, pheasants, and a very occasional bunny. I had a friend who had a Basset hound (!) that we would use to run rabbits-we were young (didn't know any better) it worked better than you might imagine, and I learned hounds are for other people besides me. My pop frowned on folks who used anything but a .22 for squirrels, and I shot bunchs of them with a few different rimfire rifles, but, that doesn't count. Everyone always said that 20 was a bit light for roosters, but, nobody ever told the roosters that, I got more than my fair share. I did buy an 1100 12 in the early 80s, and got sick of lugging the damn thing around. Ditto a Red Label 20.

My definition of all round hasn't changed much (I don't shoot bunnies at all now that I have bird dogs, and ducks are a fading memory) and from where I am sitting, I think a pump in 20 or 16 with a barrel or two makes a lot of sense in the above version of all round, with the qualifier of $300 or less attached. Holding that thought, as much as I love the 16, buying a 20 avoids some easter egg hunts for ammunition, and would thus be simpler/cheaper to feed. I don't hunt ducks, but, have heard that TM shot has made the 20 a contender again in a duck slew. Carrying a 12 pumper or auto all day in hilly or mountainous terrain was never my cup of tea. SE MN, around Brownsville or Hokah, taught me that.

I don't own just one gun, but, there are days I wish I did. I think an Ithaca 37 in 20 or 16, could pull it off. At least for me.
I have more guns than time to use them, and there are days I think of peddling all but two or three and devoting time to becomming better at what I shoot with just a few. I'm having one of those days today.
I didn't put a $300 dollar limit on it, but my All Round gun would be either of the Darnes, a 12 or a 20, that live in the safe. Useful, different, not sensitive to ammunition, light, handy, graceful. Any double you can shoot well would certainly qualify, however.
Best,
Ted

"All purpose" is an accurate description. Perhaps a list of the purposes needs to be explored. I completely agree that every benefit a particular gun has results in a liability somewhere else down the line...and no all purpose gun would be the best gun available in more than one catagory.

A mechanically sound 12 gauge with choke tubes will take, effectively, any north american small or medium game...including black bears. I wouldn't want to pursue moose, antelope, brown bear, or elk with one, although I know it could be done. The same gun will function on the sporting clays course, trap range, or skeet range... well enough to beat the people I would normally beat.

I'd even go so far as to suggest that an I.C. or Modified fixed choke would do just fine on any of the game listed.

My first gun will be my last to go. All purpose, 12ga,BPS Upland Special w/24" Invector tube bbls for upland, 28' Invector tube bbls for waterfowl & clays, iron sighted barrel with X Full tube for turkey and a fully rifled Hastings slug barrel w/scope mount for big four footed stuff.

I'll be interested to see the 16 on 20 frame when it comes out.

Recoil Rob, you got me thinking about the old 12ga. bps I already own. It's a 30" full barrel, and I could just cut it down and have tubes installed, problem solved, for about $125, or just get another shorter barrel, although the gun weighs about 8 lbs. Not exactly an ideal backup upland gun. Kind of hard to go from shooting a very svelte 16b Lefever to that. I do shoot it very well though, and it has killed many hundreds of birds, mostly ducks. Hmmm.... maybe time to start lurking on e-bay. Anybody have an extra 12ga. invector (not invector plus) bps barrel with tubes? Or - gasp! - break out the mossy 500 20 ga. I use as my dog training gun. It has 3" chambers and tubes! Now that's slummin'!

Rob and Marklart - I bought the 12 ga. BPS upland when first introduced with 22" Invector barrel. This shorty was like a riot gun. I added a 26" barrel later. Sold the gun long ago. But the new BPS upland in 16 ga. really tempts me as an backup for bad weather. I mostly use a straight grip 16 ga. M-21 for pheasants, and would no longer have to lug along both 16 and 12 ga. shells on SD trips. Any excuse to consider another gun!

When I was just a pup, my father taught me that my hunting trips should be "gauge specific". If you are shooting 16s that day, shoot 16s. Ditto 12s, or 20s.
My father was thinking this simplified logistics (20+ year marines think about logistics a lot) and was a safer way to play the game, as it eliminated the dreaded 20 cartridge in a 12 barrel snafu. Simple.
Carrying a double trigger double gun has simplified it even further for me. You have, in effect, two guns. There is a good chance one of the barrels is going to work even if the other doesn't.
For mulitiple day trips, I select a gauge, and a double, and just go. I haven't had my car broke into, but, have seen where it has happened, and I try to avoid having guns left in the car when it is unoccupied. For a time there, meth labs were sprouting like mushrooms after a rain in Pine and Aitkin county, but, that seems to be a bit more under control these days. Somebody who breaks into the car isn't going to get much from me. Jumper cables.
My backups live in the safe. I suppose I'll use them if a double goes to the gunsmith.
Best,
Ted

I usually take at least two guns, if not for true 'backup', for variety's sake. Lately, it's been a 410 and a 20g on quail hunts. I feel as soon as a guy starts looking at buying a second gun, he starts drifting away from "all purpose" and starts looking at specific purpose guns. At least I did. The more guns I acquire, the more I look for task specific guns..

Most of the bird hunting I do is on my friend's patch. We're behind locked gates and I'll often leave the truck open as we can see vehicles entering the gates or coming up the roads into the blind canyons. It's a nice place and a nice feeling to be able to leave stuff out. I even leave the keys in the truck in the ignition, in case I get hurt and my buddie needs to use the truck in an emergency.

Ted, that sums it up in these parts as well. I've never seen a gunner with two guns, in the blind (one cased) or in a vehicle. I don't think it's because of means as much as having guns suitable for blind and field, keeping things simple, making do.

Always good to know that when I publicly reveal my foolishness, Ted will explain how to do it the right way.

I never said you were foolish. I just do it differently. But, my dad was and is a smart cookie. Lucky, too-he did 22 years active with the wrong blood type stamped on his dog tag....
Best,
Ted