Can anybody point me to a

Sorry for the jumbled post

What this should have been------- CAN?? anybody point me to a book on CCH
Just as Angiers is the definitive work on bluing, there must be something that stands out when dealing with CCH

Cheers

Tony's book gives enough information to get the job done.

tony's book also provides enough information to get the novice into real trouble...if you must reharden a receiver, best to leave it to the experienced experts...

What is "Tony`s book" and do you know where I can get one??

Here you go:
http://www.lulu.com/shop/tony-treadwell/...t-20115603.html

Dr Oscar Gaddy (who resurrected the art of color case hardening for us novices)wrote a series of articles on Color Case Hardening. They are available from the Double Gun Journal and are supplemented by post to Double Gun.com and are available in the archives.

While the CCH process is interesting from a intellectual standpoint, its proper execution is not something for the garage gunsmith to toy with (even though such hobbyist diversions are now popular). Beyond the fact that 95% of all CCH renew efforts are attempted for "cosmetics" alone, a great many pros are not comfortable in having it done to any classic double. I won't name names, but they are not unknown.

In fact, ALL the top name UK makers send their CCH work out to long-trusted workmen. Along with blacking.

And there are good reasons for them to do so.

KR,
I gotta disagree on this one. I think as many hobbyists as desire should toy with such a process. Gunsmiths are typically not specialists in most of the areas they work. In fact, most are specialists in only one of the many skills needed to be a gunsmith. A hobbyist has a huge advantage in the time dedication he can put into learning a process that a pro just can't afford, since he is busy trying to make a living. Oscar Gaddy was such a "hobbyist". Some other names you'd recognize from here were once hobbyists and now pro's, some of them top shelf.

Should a beginner start with an irreplaceable gun? No. There are plenty of chunks of steel around as well as dead doubles.

Chuck:
Each to his own. But ANY decent double that has been re-cased is immediately off my consideration list. And not just for the refreshed colours. I've seen far too many cooked to the point of brittleness... even by shops which should know better. I can only imagine the first dozen results by a rank amateur.
I've also spent a good deal of my life -- and far too much time -- reversing the starry-eyed efforts of hobbyists. The metallurgical destruction of a fine double's key bits makes me cringe.

But as always, your words ring with wisdom regarding "chunks of steel" doubles. I respect your perspective.

Let us be very careful here Gents, without getting emotive.
If anyone was to case harden ANY gun without prior experimentation or trial runs would just be crass stupidity. As Chuck as already said, practice the methodology on steel blanks and old actions first.
Kensal, I heed you warnings and respect your caution, you are cautioning the idiots, I am attempting to advise and educate the skilled enthusiast. Both types walk the same road but diverge at the fork in the trail.
If none of us tried things we would still have a flat earth and be using clubs and rocks.

I am with Kensal Rise on this one.
Although I agree with Chuck and Salopian that amateurs should experiment and learn new skills (after all I was one until relatively recently) and really mastering something as unpredictable as CCH would be a huge achievement, I think that CCH is not something that should be played with when the distortion and safety considerations of the results could be so significant.
Blacking, browning, chequering and stock finishes are quite challenging enough and I have yet to hear of anybody being harmed by poorly executed chequering or indistinct browning.
Talking with a workshop and shop manager from a highly respected English gunmakers recently, he agreed that re-CCHing a gun was rarely even considered since 'too much can go wrong'.
Tony Treadwell had a lot of fun CCHing and I liked some of the results but I think it true to say that he approached each job as a new challenge, rather than simply the application of what he had done before.
I believe he understood that how ever many old clunkers he had successfully done, he might ruin the next one be it a Purdey or Perdy.
I have turned down quite a few requests to CCH a beloved gun and will continue to do so. That way I can sleep at night.

Tony, never had any issues with warping, in fact he never had any issues at all. He only cut back on the number he did because of the heat/steam/ dust from the charcoal because of his health issues.
Robin Brown of AA Brown does very nice CCH without drama as does Tony White who is self taught.
CCH is like everything in life, not without risk. That perhaps is why Risk Assessments are topical nowadays where as forty years ago you just assessed the risks and got on with the job.

Machinery Handbook has very good information about the various ways to CCH. It even has a page devoted to Ed Good page 2065.

Which edition of Machinery Handbook are you using? Mine is an older one from the 40's.

Salopian:
Well my friend, at the risk of rousing too much commentary out of the weeds on this topic, I must again demur on any promotion of CCH as a canon of back yard double gun "restoration." As I see them, the facts just don't support it:

• FACT: Any gun frame that is potentially subject to this treatment is probably over 100 years old, or close to it. Thus, without expensive professional analysis, the steel composition is unknown.

• FACT: The parts in question have been subjected to a similar treatment before. However, the precise details of that process are unknown.

• FACT: It is unknown whether or not the parts in question had been “hard fitted” after they were originally cased. This void of knowledge gives no hint of whether or not the alloy, or the shape of the part, or the case process originally used caused warpage.

• FACT: It is totally unknown how much carbon was infused into the steel surface by the original colour case process because that process is a cipher.

• FACT: Colour case hardening of parts originally colour cased is for the restoration of a perceived cosmetic value alone. Aged case colouring does not impair a gun’s proper function in the least. It only looks tatty.

• FACT: Tatty old case coloured surfaces can be treated to look quite nice and appropriate for a gun that has survived for a century or more. New case colours on an old gun is like giving Joan Rivers another facelift. The aesthetic result just doesn’t work, and is rather pointless to begin with.

• FACT: Colour case effectively camouflages good engraving. I don’t care who does the case work. Engraving is overshadowed by the colour. Colour case over some Ken Hunt engraving and there’s little point in the engraving. At least for the next 50 years until the colour case starts to fade.

• FACT: Now that there are a few experienced and responsible colour case shops in the country, there is little reason to delve into this process oneself. There are way too many downsides compared to the egocentric upside of being able to say “I done that myself.”

• FACT: A good many popular shops promote this work to make money -- not preserve history. In the process, they have horrifically tarted-up some grand old guns that should have been left alone.

• FACT: No serious future collector is going to value a re-cased gun above an original. If today’s market looks askance at sleeved guns, tomorrow’s connoisseur will recoil at re-cased guns. Personally, I need a Bromo after seeing one.


Nonetheless, I will stipulate that certain guns that have been abused, neglected etc. can and should be treated to a refreshed colour case job as part of a responsible restoration. But the percentage of guns that justify this work is very small indeed. I’ve encountered less than four in the last 20 years.

This will be my last commentary on the subject.

Original post was;-

What this should have been------- CAN?? anybody point me to a book on CCH
Just as Angiers is the definitive work on bluing, there must be something that stands out when dealing with CCH.

All I have done is answered the OP's question.
But thinking about what you said about Joan River's!!!
I'll never case harden again.

should anyone be foolish enough to take salopian's foolish advise here and destroy your fine shotgun's receiver, while attempting to recolor it via a rehardening process, please do contact me, as i may be able to salvage the barrels and wood for use on a similar gun.

I don't in any way want to get involved in this horse@%*$,but this topic constantly come's up with both side's throwing out opinion's and insult's...

I will say I do like a properly restored case color on a fully restored gun,as do many here ,I also like a gun well engraved and well aged...absolutely beautiful!!! and again ,as do many here,and those torch color's well,they just speak for themselve's ....

But in the few year's I've been reading this forum I have yet to see anyone post photo's of a catastrophic
failure of a reciever torched,bone and charcoal re-cased or whatever the hell else...I have seen some old gun's around with split receiver's from overload's(a Belgian 8 bore single come's to mind )

Where I live,I know of gun's burnt in house fire's that have been used for year's to no ill effect,a smith in town here torch's on a regular basis with oxy and acetylene,heating from what I'm told to a cherry red and dousing in oil ...and to this day ,no explosion's.

I have read the storie's about the old time maker's using speacially trained men to "hard fit " the part's that warped during the process ...as do the shop's today that cch, no difference really.

So what give's? to each his own I geuss ...if I don't like something I move on.

Just my two cent's ,thank's.

Ed GOoD Almighty, where in any of the above posts have I recommended anyone to destroy a fine shotgun receiver?
People like you make my blood boil, you are so full of your self importance that you cannot see the wood for the trees.
The OP asked for advice on a book on CCH, I gave him two references to enable him to educate himself in the processes involved.
No where have I suggested that he re-case colours any of his guns.
As I said earlier if it was not for people prepared to research and experiment we would not progress.
A number of people like Toby & Kensal would not do it at any price, others would.
But one thing is for sure I don't know anyone as stupid and crass as yourself to do the gory and distasteful damage to perfectly good guns with a torch that you seem so cavalier about just to earn a few dollars.
We have a saying here, 'It takes a Fool to know one.'
To call me foolish, I'll take that as a compliment from a Fool.

If you’re looking for a book on the step by step process on how to CCH firearm actions, don’t think one exists., although, there are lots of good books on the case hardening of steels, I’ve got a good dozen in my library. Most are over 100 years old.

Case hardening firearms follows the same rules as case hardening other low carbon steel components, if you know the type of steel, depth of case to be achieved there are lots of charts out there. The key for most gun folks is of course getting the right colors, and that takes practice…and lots of it.

Kensal Rise brought up some interesting points, a few I would like to address:

• FACT: Any gun frame that is potentially subject to this treatment is probably over 100 years old, or close to it. Thus, without expensive professional analysis, the steel composition is unknown.

Reality: If the steel was originally case hardened then one can b pretty well assured that it was “Case Hardening Steel” i.e.…low carbon. Researching turn of the century steels, it’s pretty easy to determine what the steel composition was. Additionally I have taken a few firearm frames and had the Metallurgical Testing done. Yes it’s expensive… but it’s good confirmation.

FACT: The parts in question have been subjected to a similar treatment before. However, the precise details of that process are unknown.

FACT: It is totally unknown how much carbon was infused into the steel surface by the original color case process because that process is a cipher.

Reality: We know the process, it’s only “a cipher” if you don’t know what going on. Very much like bluing, for the uninformed, it may seem like black magic, but for the folks that do it and understand it it’s not a huge mystery. Steels to be re-cased need to be properly prepared..Ie. .annealed. Annealing will help diffuse the carbon into the steel, as well a providing other benefits.
V/R

Mike

JMO, but I think we've come a ways from the days of plunging a red hot sword into a virgin slave to caseharden it...as well as understanding the mechanism which hardens the steel.

Casehardening is not a mysterious process. However, the particular techniques by which 100 yr old guns were casehardened is somewhat less than desireable from a repeatability/reliability veiwpoint. That's why the millions of pounds of steels that get casehardened today don't use charcoal packing and water quenching by a person dumping it all out in an air atmosphere. Still, casehardening in the broader industrial applications, is still accomplished thru the same physical changes in the steel, in the same basic manner of elevating the temperature of the steel in a supersaturated carbon environment until carbon penetrates and is absorbed pretty much to the practical limits, then it is quenched.

There is some risk of over-carburizing from extended saturation in the carbon environment, which can lead to a brittle martensite on the surface and undesireable stresses in the surface layer. I think the cracked frames may have been partly due to this problem. But I think this risk is relatively low if the standard saturation times/temps are adhered to.

sal: beg pardon. it did seem to me that you are advocating novice experimentation in the art of shotgun receiver recoloring. apparently you are not?

however, you still do appear foolish in your continued personal attacks on yours truly.

once again, i find it necessary to remind you that i do no gunsmithing of any kind. and certainly nothing having to do with the recoloring of shotgun receivers, which is best left to experts.

I think the information exchange is interesting and helpful. Business and historical preferences don't really advance or preserve the CCH techniques. It doesn't bother me if some backyard smith ruins his Purdey because he tried something he read on the internet. Since there're no practical reasons to do it, there may as well be enthusiast reasons.

I hope the techniques can be discussed and tried by hobbyist. Any reason to even touch a gun could be better off done by a paid expert, including just admiring it. If it's just about resale, once cash is in hand, does a seller care one bit if the new owner uses it to dig post holes.

edit to add that Brownells "Kinks" are another piece of the possibilities with trying CCH on your own.

So Mr. Good, are you not the famous Ed who has trated us all to the wonders of your acetylene torched improved guns on this forum?
If you are not one & the same person then I apologise profusely.

I apologize to bring this up again,and I know I said I wanted no part of this ...but I just dropped in, and figured someone out there would have come up with some kind of photgraphic proof of these catasrophic failure's both side's describe....anyone ?.

please someone in the know, come up with something to prove the other side wrong so no body here has to read this foolishness about cch & the %&$*torch again !!!!

newf: if you are looking for pictures of cracked shotgun receivers, resulting from incorrect heat treating, i doubt if you will find them...after all, who would take pictures of such disasters?

over the years i have seen a few...a fox and a parker come to mind. i was able to salvage the barrels and wood from both of those guns. my gunsmith was able to fit the barrels to other guns to make two barrel sets. and the wood was used to replace other wood damaged beyond repair. so, they were not a total loss...

as for a written description of the reheat treating process for shotgun receivers, tony tredwell's chapter on the subject is the best that i have seen...he breaks it down into four major processes:

annealing, coloring, hardening and tempering.

if you have not purchased the on line version of tony's fine book. please do so. it is money well spent. the above referenced chapter alone is worth much more than the cost of the whole book.