I shoot low gun trap, because that's how I shoot skeet, and I view it as hunting practice. I'm a decent skeet shooter (avg low 20's), but I'm not a very good trap shooter at all, and I'm wondering if that's why, or would it have more to do with using flat shooting light game guns, and not shooting trap much to learn all the angles, etc. like I've done with skeet. Anyone else in this boat or am I just an odd duck? Go ahead, blast away.

I have shot trap, low gun with a damascus-barreled hammergun and was chewed out by some old farts who said low gun was wrong and Damascus was dangerous. What is it with some trap shooters?

Shoot however you enjoy! Most instructors will tell you that "trap" is best shot with a premounted gun to be competitive.I can't recall if I have ever seen a shooter at a major trap event shoot low gun. Bob

Without watching, my best guess: You are using a flat-shooting game gun. It will work fine for skeet, but will shoot under most trap targets. You'll have to "cover up" the bird with the muzzle of your gun to have success. I know, they say to never take your eye off the bird, but in this case, it's what you'll have to do to break birds regularly.

I just slide the butt down in my shoulder a bit, 1/2 " or so as to cover up the bird, with my sporting guns. Works for me. I don't like older trapshooters and they don't like me. Some times I'll shoot a round with them, and I use International trap rules, wait for up to 3 seconds before calling for the bird. Upsets their "rythm" Drives them nuts
Ever notice how they molest their guns? Really cruel stuff.

Some trap guns are pre-molested too.

I find that I am leading too much and have to slow down or shorten my reaction/lead time, if that makes any sense. It works for me. Good luck

With low gun trap it is no longer a given that the clay is still rising when you shoot. It will depend a lot on how aggressive you are and how quickly you get on the clay. It is very possible to shoot over the clays when shooting low gun trap. It might be something like the second shot on trap doubles.

Seemed to work OK for E.D. Fulford, winner of the 1898 GAH at Live Birds using a Remington 1894
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1898/VOL_31_NO_02/SL3102016.pdf

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1898/VOL_30_NO_26/SL3026025.pdf
Utica, N. Y. March 14, 1898. Gun Editor "Sporting Life"

The first requisite for a successful trap shot is a good, level head and the power to govern himself if possessed of a nervous temperament: remembering at all times if one can’t control his temper he can’t control his gun. I want to see a man call "pull" twenty times, if necessary, when the traps are working badly, with" a smile on his face, and then break the target when it does fly. If a man speaks to you while shooting make the best of it; If a foreign substance or smoke blows into your eye make the best of it; If a target flies out of its natural course, or is not a fair bird, don’t shoot; if you do and miss it, offer no excuse whatever, as you will only be laughed at.
A gun with two sets of barrels, both the same length and weight, is to be recommended. Have trap set bored to shoot 70 per -cent, of load in a 30-inch circle, at 40 yards. Have field set with right barrel cylinder and left barrel modified choke. Get a gun with drop and cast-off that fits you, and one that you can hit the objects with. The average man needs about 2 3/4 inches drop at butt, 1 1/2 inches drop at comb, 14 1/4 inches long, full pistol grip, weight 7 1/2 to 8 pounds. The Remington Arms Company without doubt or question produce the best and strongest gun for the money made in the world to-day.
I consider the U. M. C. shell the best. I know nothing about any powder but Schultze and believe it the best nitro powder made. For a target load use 2 3/4 to 3 drams, wadded with a split salmon No. 11 two pink-edge. No. 11 and 1 1/4 ounces No. 7 chilled shot, in 2 3/4 inch Trap or Smokeless case. For live birds use 45 to 50 grains, wadded with one split salmon No. 11. two pink-edge. No. 11, 1 1/4 ounces No. 7 and 1 3 / 16 ounces No. 6 chilled shot, in 2 3/4 inch case. You can make no mistake in using the above loads for trap shooting of the present clay. Always use a wad one size larger than the gauge of your gun: the latter is very important in any gun.
Shot traveling at the rate of 900 feet per second requires one-sixth of a second to go 50 yards, one-eighth of a second to go 40-yards, one-tenth of. a second to go 30 yards, and one-fifteenth of a second to go 20 yards. An object moving at the rate of 30 miles an hour goes 41/2 feet while the shot travels 40 yards: an object moving at the rate of 60 miles an hour goes 9 feet while the shot is traveling 40 yards; an object moving at the rate of 120 miles an hour goes 18 feet while the shot is traveling 40 yards. Therefore, in order to make a junction of your shot and target, you must learn to time the distance, move your gun just as fast as the object – no faster and no slower – and don’t stop the motion of your gun when you pull the trigger.
A great many are of the opinion that each man shoots with a different system, but such is not the case. It may be so with the poorer class of shooters, but with the best shots of America all shoot so near alike, or know where to aim, that there is one grand-standard. It often takes years to find the right place. Different men take different ways, but the result is always the same.
The position of the gun should be a free and easy one, with left arm extended so there is a slight bend at the elbow; the butt should be dropped 2 1/2 inches or more from the face, and never, never hold your gun glued to your shoulder. A beginner should get a pair of shells known as "snaps," which have a spring in the primer hole, and it does not hurt the hammers to snap them. Placing the gun to your shoulder before a (mirror) and snapping at an object, several yards away, the instant it strikes your shoulder is almost as good practice as the real shooting. The novice should study his position, because the centre of gravity has as much to do with good shooting as anything else. Learn to get in the strongest position possible when your gun goes off - not when it starts - and always have a little force in reserve, so when you get a fast quarterer you can push the gun further in front with ease and control it’s motion.



E.D. Fulford defeated Capt. Jack Brewer "Champion Wing Shot of the World" and "The Best Shot on Live Birds the World Has Ever Known" when they shot three, 100 bird matches at Al Heritage's grounds, Marion, New Jersey in November, 1891 for $3000 a side. Fulford killed 204 birds straight during the match.
Fulford won the re-match January, 1892 at Woodland Park, Long Island for $1,000 a side, killing 100 birds straight to Brewer’s 99. In preliminary practice and in the match Fulford scored 421 birds straight. After the loss, Brewer declared "I will shoot against any man in the world for the World's Championship Cup which I now hold with $5000 or $10,000 a side, Hurlingham or London Club rules to govern." There is no record that match took place.


Keep at it. I can't shoot a SXS pre-mounted as I only look at the barrels, not the bird
Unfortunately back in my trap shooting days, my SBTs were set up 90%/10% so I'm not very good with a 50%/50% SXS

Try putting one of the wrap around padded comb risers that attach with an elastic velcro band on your gun. This will (or should) make you see a good bit of the rib when you mount the gun and your patterns should print slightly high. I never look at the corner or edge of the trap house, but focus 2-3 ft above. Pretend it's a flushing quail or pheasant when you call pull and shoot instinctively. Want to have fun? Have up to a 3 second delay when you call for the bird. Accuriser, I believe, is the name of the attachment.

I hardly ever shoot trap anymore and if I do I shoot low gun. It's a game that brings out the ananl retentive in many people. I became bored with it and began doing things just for kicks. Some night when you're shooting trap (particularly with your damascus barreled gun everyone's afraid of) shoot off a black powder load from the middle station. Or, bring a bolt action Mossberg and set in the stand next to those multi-thousand dollar single barrel trap guns and tell them that yours busts clays just as well. There's a million ways to pi$$-off trap shooters. It's not a very social sport.
The last time I shot I was at number 15 wondering how much longer this boring game was going to take. It was an awakening for me.
Steve

If and I say if your going to be a trap shooter you have to be very competitive. If your not don't waste your time. You guys or some of you seem to bad mouth trap shooters. How many of you ever ran 200 straight or made it to the 27 yard line? Whats you doubles average? When your AA, 27, AA then you can bad mouth the trap shooters. It's easy to talk bad about a group but some of them are very helpful, and some of them can shoot. Bill

My observation is that most of the guys who can run 200 straight on the trap line can't hit $hit when we are out bird hunting. Being able to "shoot" is often a far cry from being a good shot.

And, lots of dedicated trap shooters are just nuts.

I am with Bill Grill on this one.

Bill, I love to shoot trap. I was AA, 27 yard, have shot several 200 16 yard straights and have shot a hundred straight in doubles. But I love to shoot it all, including trap, skeet, sporting and live birds. But my favorite is shooting game birds over a bird dog. I think trap shooters are just like skeet shooters and just as competitive. I don't think there is anything boring about shooting a 100 straight in trap especially from the 27 yard line. With the exception of pigeon shooting, 27 yard trap is the most difficult and challenging game of all IMHO.....and I have competitively shot them all. Don't take it too personal what people say here. People just like to strut their stuff, that's all.

A friend of mine is like that. He's murder at shooting trap but can't hit real birds. I think he takes his trap winnings and buys pheasant. I shoot informal just for fun and practice before hunting season.

Rocky Mountain vintagers have a low gun trap shoot each year. We dont want to be TRAP SHOOTERS. We shoot for fun. I shoot trap, when I am around, with some serious trap shooters, they tolerate me, shooting low gun. They like what they do, but like others, I find it boring. Rigid locked positions, super special purpose guns, and worst of all they take themselves WAY too seriously...to each his own I guess...

Mark - I have had the same struggles. I found my eye dominance switched when I covered the trap targets with my gun, leading to some very frustrating results. Changing the POI so I could float the target over the barrels really helped. (Easier said than done if you are shooting a vintage sxs - I use an Italian OU with an adj comb for shooting clays, so that was an easier fix for me). Be careful when using those comb riser kits - the pads can change cast as well as drop.

The best trap tip I got was to make sure you eye stays focused on the top of the bird - with the going away, rising target, your focus can drop to be bottom edge causing you to shoot under the bird.

What I have struggled with for both skeet and trap is that to be competitive in either requires shooting techniques that are inconsistent (or worse) for wingshooting. That said, the trap and skeet shooters I have hunted with are good wingshots. What I have realized is that, while the pre-mounted shooting technique may be very different from wingshooting, the intense focus on the target required for successful skeet and trap (and SCs) shooting is also critical for successful wingshooting. So when I shoot trap now, I see it as good practice for hard focus on the target, and don't worry as much about low gun vs. pre-mounted.

I like to Bowl. I bowl overhand because that's how I throw a baseball, and a ball is a ball.

Can anyone tell me why I'm not scoring well?

You might try "fast pitch" bowling. I shoot golf at the 25 yard line----with a .44 mag Super Blackhawk.

Trap, IMO, puts a premium on "stable" gun dynamics. That is, high mounted swing effort (high MOI at shoulder). When shooting a gun with much lower swing effort, one must be much more accurate. Trap is, by and large, a long range game, so allowable aiming error is much smaller. Instability is a real problem for shooting game guns at trap. You can do it, but it takes more work than with a trap gun. As noted above, gun fit is usually way less than optimal for trap. My best efforts have involved shooting the game gun by the instinctive method; hard to do if you have developed muscle memory for trap with a trap gun.

DDA

I believe this post came the closest to explaining the OP's difficulty with low gun trap.

The "trap type" presentation is one of the most difficult for many FITASC shooters for the same reason. The computer between the ears is gauging the speed, angle and changing elevation of a "surprise" target and the hands must start from a low position and travel a considerable distance to complete the mount with upward momentum which has to be so tightly controlled that the gun can be fired the instant the muzzle touches the target. To score high requires a pretty flawless mount matched with a good understanding how/why you connect or miss.

You're likely to never be "competitive" at trap with a low gun, since competitive means breaking 98+% no matter what class you're in. That requires 101 perfect mounts as a minimum and then there are still several other ways/reasons to miss 5 targets out of 100. But if you're serious about breaking 80% or more at low gun trap, I suggest you lock the trap at a hard angle you like and practice that target without the element of surprise. When your mount is smooth as silk and your timing is such that you're scoring 90+% kills on that target, change the target to the opposite angle and your results will likely plummet. When your success rate rebounds it's time to free the trap and introduce the element of surprise. You won't be so smooth anymore.

It's removing the variability of the mount that makes pre-mounting so necessary to shooting perfect trap. International skeet is shot low gun, but even international trap is shot with a pre-mounted gun.

ANY clay target shooting is beneficial to wingshooting. And ANY clay shooter who is truly accomplished in any of the diciplines will outshoot, after a short learning curve, any gameshot who does not shoot clays.
Stick with low gun clays if keeps you interested. I can testify that 50 straights in American trap and 20/25 at bunker trap is doable with a 32" SxS from the low gun start.

Reminds me of an afternoon 7-8 yrs ago when I shot a round of low gun trap with Kim Rhodes. Just me and her. Fun round. Kind of a speed shoot as well.

Gun hold has to do with gun speed . If you are a one eyed shooter you have to hold a low gun. If you are a two eyed shooter you can hold a higher gun.

I haven't a problem with trap shooters with their speciality shotguns or the sporting clay shooters with theirs. I just plug along with my hunting shotguns and dismiss their disappointing looks. Heck they don't like any SxS, has to be an O/U. Oh well, to each his own.

I have encountered quite the opposite...many SC shooters approach me and want to know what kind of SxS I'm shooting. When I took my Parker Repro w/CSM .410 barrels out for the first time, I recieved a couple compliments and one guy talked to me for about half an hour. Actually, the Parker Repro in it's .28ga trim got a few compliments as well.

I don't shoot trap but about once in a few years.

A really interesting array of responses here, with many very helpful tips. I find Drew Hause's post very illuminating also, since Fulford ran 421 straight shooting low gun with a Remington 1894 (presumably) sxs. So, it can be done, but like Mike Campbell said, it requires intense focus and discipline, and practice. That said, the only competition I really care about is the competition with myself to master something that is intrinsically [more] difficult. I am a bit of a contrarian, I admit, and I enjoy self imposed limitations on my fun. So, I'll take what I've learned here and plug away at it. I might even enjoy it too.

I grew up in California in the 60s and my late father shot trap with a low gun. He shot a German 16 gauge side by. He would have the gun down at his waist, yell pull, mount the gun, and bust the clay pigeon. Everybody else shot Winchester Model 12s, Remington 870s, and, for those who could afford them, Browning Superposed. These guns were specifically made for trap shooting. His was an upland game gun and his shooting trap with a low gun was a continuation of his bird huting. There weren't too many times he missed. The times he did was because he had the gun to his shoulder when he yelled pull. I was 13 and asked him why he was missing. He told me he was getting stares and comments from the other shooters and he was looking for the gun. I told him he should not worry about the other shooters, but shoot the way he did and break the clay pigeons. As for me, I have the gun mounted to my shoulder when I yell pull. The bottom line is, shoot the way you feel comfortable and don't let some old fart tell you otherwise.

That's what I dislike about trap, there's always someone complaining about how you shoot or better yet, blaming there misses on you. "He let out a fart in the station next me that's why I missed!" They're always so quick to blame someone else when they don't make 25. Y'all can shoot trap all you want, as for me I'll shoot a few rounds of low gun trap just before pheasant season to get limbered up for hunting, if I miss a few so what, only God's perfect.
Steve

I shoot trap with an 1890 LC Smith Damascus hammer gun. I don't do that well as I am a rifleman but I do have fun. At one trap house at my club there is a group of serious trap shooters with the expensive guns. They are having fun. The group of guys that I shoot with are just there to have fun and are not all that serious about it. If someone has a good round we all congratulate him. If he shoots a round where he does not do too well no one makes fun of him. I think that the name of the game at the range is to have fun.
Carl

Oh, no, Mark. You HAVE to shoot a Ljutic or a Kolar or Alfermann to have fun. A side by side is just too.......well...old fashioned or something. HA!

My last round of sporting clays was with a Parker 28 ga repro for me. I didn't score as high as the "Master Class" sporting Clays guy I was with.......but I had every bit as much fun.
Some trap shooters are pains in the rear, with some being unable to hit a bird, and some that are absolutely deadly.
It takes all kinds, and, by the way,I just took back my old job as Manager of Lincoln Trap & Skeet Club. We have Trap, Skeet, 5-Stand and Sporting Clays. It is a busy place, and you see a lot of darn good shooters, but very, very few of us old coots with side by sides.
Have a good one, old friend:
Sam Ogle

Come to the Fort Bragg Clay Target center. You will see vintage pumps, SBTs double traps on the line as well as the assorted 'new' trap guns. We all respect one another and generally have a good time. A few of us have been shooting wobble trap. At 22 yards for the moment but will try longer yardage as soon a 90% hit average is attained.

OK. I responded to the OP's topic as best I could. Now I'll respond to the secondary toipic running through the thread.

I must be a nutty old fart since I like the vast majority of trap shooters I've met; can't say the same for most Canadians. And I don't think I'd get along well with Texans who have the attention span of a 4 year old.

I hunt birds with a SxS that was likely sold in a hardware store. I've never had a gun fitting, much less ordered a shotgun, but I can hit almost everything I shoot at and don't make excuses for what I miss. I'm not averse to backing up claims of my shooting prowess with cash bets.

That's probably crass, but then, I despise brown likker, don't know what the hell single malt means and get nauseus at the smell of cigar smoke. If it intrudes my space and I can't escape it, I get downright beligerant.

English setters are OK, though I've never met one with more personality than your average zombie posesses; the 2 I hunted with for 15 years certainly didn't. I've gathered that other pointing breeds aren't even worthy of mention, so I won't. I'm apalled at the thought of anything around a dog's neck that has a battery in it. Still, they'd be my first choice for catch and release with a butterfly net. Now that I'm an anal retentive old fart, it seems unsporting to me to actually shoot a bird rendered completely defenseless by taking away it's surprise flush. IMO, shooting pointed birds is not that far removed from ground swatting, something I also tried in my misspent youth and now regret. Nowadays, I only shoot flying objects for fun. Competing is fun for those who can....for others, not so much.

Mike you need to continue that discourse. I had a hard time gettiing up off the floor I was laughing so. But then I have a hard time getting up anyway...Gil

From Gough Thomas (Shotguns and Cartridges):



If anyone has pics to share of "supplementary, superelevated ribs" they have mounted on their sxs, I am sure they will be favorably commented upon.

Ask and thou wilt receive

Wobble is the best kind of trap, Walt.... other than maybe doubles.

We have a Pat trap with a vertical unit, and we throw a wide, fast target.

The ideal is 80 yards in still air.

They come out like a laser, but they give you a true line.

The hard angles at low elevation will bring you out of your shoes.

We shoot mostly 19 yards at that, and a 25 isn't uncommon.

Of course, some of us shoot from the top of the picnic table too... maybe 32 yards back... with poorer averages but more fun. You can see the time of flight very distinctly when they do break 1/4 of a second later.

Ease up on trapshooters guys, we like to have fun too.

Nice find - that looks like a good way to lose an eye. The BTFE appears to be on steroids too. I wonder what formerly wonderful SLE is enduring that humiliation.

What's he do, launch grenades with it?

Can't quite figure that one.
Are there two ribs there at different elevations, ?
Volley Sights went out of style in WW1

The hat thing I've seen before.

I've seen that before too. The hat is alright, he just didn't put his head on the right way in the morning.

Kutter,
the lower rib looks like V 1.0 and the upper looks like it was added by screwing it on as V 1.5

You guys that have had bad experiences with trap shooters with your vintage guns just bumped into the club crumudgeons. They are in all venues along with the hoity-toyti's. Some just plain don't want to be bothered by anybody and the others don't want be bothered unless you fit into their income bracket. Most trapshooters are not like either group.

I shoot vintage guns at ATA shoots and have a lot of people stop me and ask what I'm shooting. They are genuinly interested. More so even when shooting doubles with a SxS. I'll be the guy in Mason, Mi. shooting all doubles events with a SxS this year. Bill

As a competition shooter, it bothers me very little to shoot with the S x S guys or the guys with a pump. I really don't enjoy shooting with a guy who knows nothing of shooting and is out there with a 24 inch pump shooting # 5 shot. There are all kinds and what the seasoned trap or skeet shooter resents is the redneck who doesn't have a clue. We will tolerate them for a little while and try to help the 'beginner' , but rednecks are a totally different matter. If I'm serious about shooting and want to practice, I want to shoot with fellow shooters, skeet, trap, and sporting clay who know what they are doing. If not, I will shoot a few 'from the hip' to show the redneck how easy the game really is! HaHa. A beginner who wants to learn is a totally different matter.

Mike are you speaking of that old hardware Fox that just so happens to have a knockout stock built by the owner with dimensions to fit said owner??

Ken,

I think that would be the one...or several.

Simple, reliable and readily available at reasonable cost. They're pretty popular with DIY'ers here in the northeast.

Low gun on fast going away targets - I have missed trying to mount too fast - the barrel goes too high due to the quick mount - esp on flat ones. Too fast causes a swing thru in the wrong direction (up), and hard to see it. Weight over the front foot, and forward lean seems to help keep the muzzles down. Moving and mounting slow seems to help most - other than watching the target.

That's because you don't know how to properly mount your gun. I've watched many pre-mounters try low mount. Most sling the gun to their shoulder upon calling "pull" and then ride the bird prior to pulling the trigger. Can anyone tell me why this is a good way to miss the bird?

Phil

That double ribbed shotgun looks like a mechanical solution to a shooter headspace problem! Check back in a couple weeks and he will have some other stupid contraption trying to solve his shooting problems without having to get instruction and practice. There is a gunsmith somewhere nearby laughing his butt off on his way to the bank - just knowing this dude will be back shortly with more money. Looks like the gun already has an adjustable comb screwed up to max elevation so he can get his cheek on something to position his eye behind the rib. Probably has a automobile's power seat mechanism built into the buttplate with 6 different axis of adjustments to tinker with too. Bet the gun swings like the proverbial pig on a snowshovel too.

Someone help me out here: I've seen this picture before, and in my dim memory banks, He is an international competitor from an Arab country who does very, very well.
Can't recall the name or his country, or even the sport, but I DO remember that he is a great shooter from what I read & saw at the time.

Sam Ogle

I belive he's from UAE and his brother owns/finances Accuratereloading.com. The Arab won an Olympic gold medal in trap doubles. He's the real thing.

Found this with a quick Google search -- Ahmad Mohammad Hasher Al Maktoum, United Arab Emirates. The youtube video is from the Athens games in 2004.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qdckqd_SLL0

If I am not mistaken that is Saeed al Makhtoum of Dubai and he is shooting international skeet with that gun. He is one of the very best at that game.

All the best

Skeeterbd

Appears you're right Skeeterbd. My search was for UAE Olympic trapshooting, so got Ahmad.