growing up in the 40s and 50s the 16 guage sxs was the gun to have especially by fox, parker, smith etc. has the 16 gained any popularity with sportsmen in the recent years?

I don't think so. I think the ballistics are fine but my only problem with them is the reloading options are so limited.

Donno if it's gained popularity or not, since I don't know what your beginning level of popularity might be. It's far and away my favorite gauge for upland hunting. I have more 16's than anything else. I seem to be able to load whatever I am looking for in a 16, so I don't feel limited in loading at all. Love the 16's.

From a sales point of view, they have become far easier to sell in the last ten years and are now quite sought after. Nobody loads in the UK and available ammo is good. A nice way to build a gun light and strong that can handle an ounce perfectly.

I have L.C. Smith 16 ga. from hammer gun to Specialty Grade and like them all. Really fond of the hammer gun/s.
Since all of my 16's are 2 9/16" chamber, I roll crimp them using either the one in the drill press or the old fashioned hand crank one. Frankly, the hand crank one is faster.
A friend found a recipe using RST 16's, 2 1/2" hulls using the same wad I use for roll crimping, Ballistics Products SP16 and fold crimping them. Might have to try that.

If you join the 16 ga. Society and 16 ga. Reloaders site for a one time fee of $40.00, there are more 16 ga loads than you could ever shoot.

I think the question is similar to: "Has the .264 Winchester Magnum gained popularity in recent years?"

Being that I'm really enthusiastic about the .264 Win Mag, I'd like to think so. Have been for over 3 decades. But in reality, my guess is the .264 popularity continues to wane, especially if you compare it in terms of percentage of all calibers sold in the U.S.. I think the 16ga is on a parallel path in the U.S.. There'll always be a small segment of the shooters that will follow these cartridges. But some sort of big resurgence? I don't think so.

16s are very rare on the clay target venues these days, and if you like modern O/Us, you don't have a lot of choices in 16 ga. (Browning, Rizzini), and not all are built on scaled frames.

I am waiting for a Sterly 16 to come back from the stocker and can't wait to get it in the field. A 6-lb. 16 ga. on a svelte 20 ga. frame is an ideal field gun, IMHO. Some of the Spanish makers will build a gun on that configuration if asked.

If Beretta ever offered a 16 ga. on their 20 ga. 687 frame, I bet they would sell really well.

Sure seems like it when you try to buy one used!

Generally, 16 gauge repeaters are a drug on the market because they are usually built on a 12 gauge frame so as the repeater gained ascendency in the shotgun market the 16 gauge waned.

Regarding side by sides, 20 years ago the resale price of a 16 was lowest for a given gun between 12 and 410. Today that is no longer true. As an example a 16 gauge model 21 Winchester will bring more $$ than a 12, all other aspects being equal. The 16s with chambers shorter than 2.75" though might not be as popular in the US because we can't get shells as easily as in the UK and Europe.

My absolute favorite upland bird gun is a 16 gauge German piece with 2.75" chambers.

RB

I think the few recent models mass produced where on 12 gauge frames and most everyone yawned. No one really wants a 16 gauge that weighs as much as 12 gauge. Defeats the entire purpose of having a 16 gauge in the first place. I think if Remington came out with a model 870 on a 20 gauge frame with choke tubes, newbies would like it. However, real McCoy in my opinion would be for browning to make their Citori 16 gauges on a 20 gauge Citori frame. That would make some folks pay attention I'm thinking. For me personally, the real deal would be a stateside maker come out with a 16 gauge on a 20 gauge frame. Can you imagine how many Rugers sxs would have been made if they had only come out with both a 16 and a 20 gauge sxs using the same 20 gauge frame. They would have sold a ton if their quality control was where it needed to be.

Tut,
I thought they did that a while back, the Citori 16 on a 20 frame.

http://www.billhanusbirdguns.com/browning16.html

Twenty to thirty years ago selling any double was hard and a 16 almost had to be given away to sell them. Common myth was that ammo was not available. It was just not a discount sellers and often in limited quantities. I bought several 16 Sterlingworths for less than the going 12 rate and half what a 20 was selling for. A 30" 16 bore Fox is a very nice gun to carry.

Today there is a market for 16's. Almost a cult, like the 28 has enjoyed for years has created a decent number of buyers. I think the internet has saved the 16. On the net you can find ammo, wads and complete range of reloading materials. Without ammo that is affordable and plentiful these old guns just become all hangers or closet queens. Kind of like a muscle car without gas to run them. Not much fun.

When I grew up in NE GA back in the stone age (the 1950's and into the early 1970's), a 16-bore was THE gun for all the "bird" (quail) hunters and rabbit chasers in the county. But no one I knew shot a side x side in those days (never saw a Parker until after I was married), they all shot auto shuckers; those considered more well-to-do sporting Browning A-5's (Sweet 16's), and the less well off toting a Remington Sportsman 58. The first "real" gun I ever purchased was 16-bore Rem. 1100 with which I bagged truck loads of game; but 16-bore 1100's haven't been manufactured in years and are now considered "collectible". I graduated to a 12-bore Browning A-5 because I got into reloading and Win AA hulls and wads were obtainable; whereas components to load the 16-bore at the time were almost non-existant. It was the guys in my generation who graduated to 12-bores; and I vividly remember my father telling me that I was an idiot for trading the best gun ever made (the Browning A-5) for an Ithaca 200E double. I wanted a side by side because gun writers of the day waxed lovingly over "romances" with side x side; and I also wanted a side x side to increase the difficulty factor in my shooting, as almost never missing with the A-5 was making my chosen sport a bit monotonous. I have some great memories afield with 16 bores, and especially with my 16 gauge side x sides; the most memorable event that of scoring a left and right on a pair of grey fox my beagles flushed from a brier thicket (I don't suppose too many doubles have been scored on grey fox?). But alas, those grizzled old bird hunters have now died off along with their beloved quarry, the Bobwhite Quail; and with their demise, so came the demise of the 16-bore as regards popularity in my area so no shooter I know now carries a 16-bore afield. Contemplating all these changes make me a bit sad; but I'm glad to know that the 16-bore is still alive and well in some parts of the country.

www.16ga.com take a look at this site. The 16 has a dedicated following.

that looks like bing crosby. the other person i dont recognize. i asked the question basically because i see a great interest in the 20 guage of late and many 16s seem to be far less expensive
and of equal quality. i do have several 16s of fine makers and prefer them over my others [12s, 20s, 28s, and 410s] i seldom see 16s in the field or on the range.

I've got a 16ga Fox Sterlingworth that weighs 5 lbs, 11oz. Easy to carry, easy to point, throws a beautiful pattern of 1 oz shot. What more could you ask for in the uplands?

I own a couple of 16 bore shotguns. I really like a 16 and as the old saying goes, the 16 carries like a 20, but kills like a 12. The perfect upland gun IMHO. In answer to your question, I think they are getting a little more popular but I don't have any statistics to back that up. I wish they were cheap because I'd like to have a Holland or Purdey 16 but they seem very high priced to me. :-(

If you want a 16 gauge repeater on a 16 gauge frame, get an Ithaca. Still produced and still on a 16 gauge frame.
BTW, my dad's favorite gun was a borrowed 16 ga. Fox Sterlingworth. Guess he hadn't progressed up to an Ithaca. Just reporting the history.

I have one. Don't like the way it looks compared to all my SxS guns but I sure like the way I shoot it.

They carry well, point better, and do the job. Love them! But then I'm biased! Taken woodcock to Canada geese (just started turkey hunting). I'm sure a slug in the side of a deer will drop them also.

They just 'feel' right
(time for this noob to brag)

Stand corrected. I thought several (probably more then that) that the 16 gauge Browning O/U's were on their own sized frame and not on a 20 gauge frame.

I have two of them. An H and R Topper and a Model 37 Ithaca. I never shoot the Topper but I traditionally shoot one pheasant per year with the Ithaca.

The 16 Ga "syndrome" seems to have gone almost everywhere, squized between the 12 and 20 Ga, it fell victim of the industrial gun makers that wanted fewer frames and models to produce. On top, the O/U came in droves in the 70's and 80's, glutting every market. Here the second hand market has been constantly offering a good supply of 16 Ga sidebysides, some of them, taking refugee in my stable (Darne, Win21, Ideal, J. Winkler) and going periodically for doves, pigeons, quail and perdiz. Still it is here the preferred calibre of the small farmer/peasant. Thanks to the writtings of Gene Hill, Richard Grozik and Michael MacIntosh, the 16 Ga sxs virtues have been reconsidered by the North American upland shooter.

Enough already!

My predictions are that the 16, much as I like it for some upland shooting, will never be completely resurrected until the NSSA and NSCA recognize it and it has it's own sub-guage events. Can't see that happening anytime soon.

I love this 32" Elsie 16 ga. for late season doves, with 1 oz. shot,



but can find no earthly reason to want to use it on ducks. Waterfowling for me is strictly a 12 ga. event.

SRH

I had to think about it for a second, but I believe I have six 16 gauge guns at this time. Two Ithaca model 37's, a Winchester model 12 skeet grade, two Fox Sterlingworth's and a damascus barrelled SXS labeled Samuel Buckley but it is definately made by Westley Richards. It is a magic wand that I handload Alcan all brass shells for. I also used to have a Baker Batavia Leader in 16 gauge back in the day but I foolishly sold it. Last year I declared it a 16 gauge season for upland game, and that was all I used along with vintage paper Super X shells in my Sterlingworths. The aroma alone of those hulls made it worth it.

Makes a nice rabbit gauge lite too.

At the Washington State Sporting Clays Championships this coming weekend at Sumner Gun Club, they are having a 16 ga event. We asked for it and they listened. Gonna be fun. JW

Who the heck wants rabbits full of shot? Use a proper rabbit gun for rabbits. Use a .22 LR

1 Sauer, 1 Emil Kerner (5lbs. 8oz.), 1 NID, 1 Nitro Special and 2 drillings. Never had a problem with ammo, plenty of RST 7/8 $1oz loads for the older guns.

As already stated, ammo problems are a myth. True, you can't walk into Wally world and find a selection that rivals 12's and 20's- often you can't find any. But a little planning and foresight go a long way. RST will sell you just about anything you could want, and their hulls reload well. Components are readily available, as are more recipes than you could ever digest.

I belong to the 16 Ga Society, and my first response to the original post was, "You're kidding, right?" Dig's observation of the strength in sales and their "sought after status" lends a more empirical angle to my personal observations and proclivities. I don't shoot many targets, but it is always with a 16, and usually my 3/4 oz reload. Yes, even sporting clays. Amazing how far out you can definitively break targets with that small of a load. I also use that load on dove and quail, and it is a delight to shoot.

I don't have a lot of guns, in smoothbore three sxs 16's, and one 12 that I use for turkey and waterfowl.

Is the 16 gaining in popularity? Certainly in the circles I wander.

Mike

I was wrong, I have seven. I can't belive I forgot my 1950's era Masquelier importd by Paul Jaeger of Jenkintown PA.

1922 Fox SW, A. Ilsley, 1949 Ithaca M37R, 1959 Ithaca M37, Win. M12 1959.

Gene Hill Shotgunner's Notebook "The Sixteen-Still Sweet"

"If I were to sit down and make a list of what might be the ideal requirements for an upland gunner's shotgun, my idea would include a few facts and a few fancies. An ounce of shot ought to be enough, and 2 1/2 drams of powder plenty to propel it. That dictates a gun that weighs no more than six or six-and-a-half pounds; light enough to carry, quick enough to swing, yet with enough weight to have an essential momentum for smoothness and to take the bite from the recoil.

Another essential of my upland gun is that it appeal to the eye as well as to the hand. A straight or half-pistol grip, a delicate slimness to the receiver and barrels, and one or two triggers, depending on your preference. No harm in a bit of engraving to relieve the eye and add a touch of distinction, and we could carry this a bit further and checker the end of the buttstock or fit a skeleton bit of metal for protection against wear and handling. And what would we have? That almost-forgotten darling of a few generations past: the 16-gauge."

You also just described a light English 12b game gun. At 6lb, 8oz, they are pretty nice too. I really like 1 oz loads in them too!

True, Buzz. But it's not just weight, some other numbers are just unavoidable: 729, 662.

Cheers,

Mike

Not quite Buzz -- Mike has it right, twelves are missing that slimness of barrels.

Jay

If you reload, the 12 has significant and unquestionable advantages over the 16. Because I like to shoot my guns a lot, after a very long love affair with the 16, I came to the conclusion that a light 12 makes more sense for me.

Re popularity, I recently had the occasion to look at gun preferences reported by the members of LODGH (Loyal Order of Dedicated Grouse Hunters) 30 years ago vs currently. Back in the early 80's, 9% of those who completed the survey shot the 16. The most recent survey, looking at the 3 states with the largest number of cooperators (MI/WI/PA), 12% used the 16. So it's at least holding steady, although I might have expected to see more gain. The real jump in popularity among grouse and woodcock hunters came in those who use the 28ga: from just over 1% 30 years ago to almost 16% today. The 20ga remains the most popular choice (as it was then), from just under 50% 30 years ago to just over that mark today. The 12ga has lost a lot of favor, dropping from being favored by 40% to just over 20% today.

" As an example a 16 gauge model 21 Winchester will bring more $$ than a 12, all other aspects being equal."

The reason is that more 12's were built than 16's and the Model 21 is a collectors game for the most part.

Post war M37 16 barrels are significantly heavier than pre war barrels.

I have ordered three bespoke 16's, A 6# 0.1 oz Bruchet/Darne, 5# 9 oz CSMC Fox and an AyA #2 which I never actually took delivery as they built the wrong frame.
They were ordered just because. They could have just as easily been 20's.

There is no doubt that the 16 has gained in popularity in the last decade or so, you just have to seperate out the $$ valuation due to collectability from the actual popularity.-Dick

Very interesting thread! Two years ago I picked up a Merkel 1620 EL when I was in the LL Bean gunroom in Maine. As soon as I picked it up I knew I had to have one - it was a delicious gun. The Bean price was very high and they wouldn't budge a dime so I got one somewhere else, had the stock fitted to me and it has become my favorite gun for upland birds. The Merkel 1620 is built on their 20ga frame and my 1620 is lighter than my Merkel 20ga which I rarely use anymore.

It's the only 16 ga I own but it's the gun I shoot most. I get most of my shells from B&P.

Bull.

Just recently one of our good friends photographed his measuring tape against the breech of his favorite 16 and posted them on the other board. I did the same with the first two light twelves that came to hand when I reached into the safe and if you remember there was less than 3 mm difference.

I defy anyone to identify 3mm difference from the butt end of a mounted gun.

And just for the record, I own a number of 16s as well and while they may be slim compared to some 12s, there are many fine light 12s that will rival them in sleekness and if you will, sexiness.

My Lindner FW, at 5 pounds 9 ounces shames many 16s and my Lindner Diamond grade at 6 aand 8 is certainly as light as most 16s, if not lighter.

I like the B&P 12 ga. shells and shoot them regularly, but their subgauge offerings are limited unfortunately, esp. their sole 16 ga. shell which I find a little hot to put in a 100-year old Fox (1 1/16 oz, 1280 fps). I wish they would offer some of their softer shooting/low pressure 12 ga shells for subgauges as well.

I have asked and they say they are considering but nothing yet. I would encourage other vintage 16 ga. owners to ask as well.

With the problems, you have acquiring ammo in remote areas or as simple as the lack of planning on the hunter’s part, I see the 16 gauge as more of a nuisance then anything. Younger hunters see the 3 inch 20 gauge as the ‘NEW’ upland game gauge or more to the point their do everything gauge and the 16 gauge as nothing more then the “older generation's has been” gauge.

RCC, who takes their perception of the grace of a gun's lines from the breech end of the barrels of a mounted gun? Slimness of barrel lines is seen along the length of the barrels, especially noticeable nearing the muzzles. The relative slimness of a 16's barrels is obvious, even from across a room.

I can see the difference between my 5.75 lb. 16 gauge Ilsley and my 6.25 lb H. Adkin 12. Maybe not shouldered but the difference is obvious to me.

I hunt with a light English SxS in 12 gauge that I shoot 1 oz. loads. I guess I'm just pretending to shoot a 16

I'm in the market for a English SxS in 16 gauge.

Four of mine.

The first photo has The barrels from a high grade 16 bore Bonehill Sidelock on top of the barrels of the 12 bore Lindner FW. The second has the barrels from a 16 bore on top of the barrels from a 12 bore Wm Evans.

GC,

The barrel lines of light 12s are as slim from across the room as they are no larger than most 16s as you can see from the above photos.

My point is merely that 16s, as delightful as they are, as lovely as they are, are no more so than truly light 12s.

Most of the chest thumping I hear from the 16 gauge lovers fail to recognise that and it just simply not true. The implication being that all twelves are big fat blunderbusses.

The breech comparison and the view from the butt stock are valid in as much as the view from the butt stock is the one we see most with our guns when afield.

I disagree...IF the gun is properly scaled to the gauge, the 16 definitely feels trimmer and will be lighter than it's sister in 12 gauge, presuming similar craftsmanship in the barrel making and actioning. The pictures you point out make clear that's not the case in the example you highlight here - those 16 barrels are far to thick, or appear so. If the 16 must be put on a 12 gauge frame, you are absolutely correct - no advantage.

Although I still own several 16's, I am tending more toward light 12's for a lot of my shooting. I shoot a lot of clays ( 5 clubs at last count) and do a lot of upland hunting and rarely see another 16ga afield. A Beretta Ultralight O/U and even an old 303 are becoming favored guns for western birds; still like the 16, 20, 28 for grouse & woodcock.

I have four 16's--a 0 frame Parker, a #1 frame Parker, a small frame Lefever DS and a Lindner Diamond. All are really fun guns however there's too little difference between them and lighweight 12's to make them distinctively different. One of my favorite upland guns is a six pound even Webley & Scott 12 gauge and another would be my #1 frame Parker 12 at 6 1/2 pounds. Both are on the lower end of what I find to have enough momentum for decent shooting. I just can't be consistent with sub six pound guns. But still, I like the 16's in my stable just for something different. And I don't own a single 20 gauge.

GF1 is absolutely right. RCC, your light 12s aren't much different in breadth than your 16s because of variation in chamber wall thickness that's not generally seen in barrel wall thickness along the length of the barrels to the muzzles. Those 16s look to have thicker chamber walls than that 12. It's along the barrel length that the slimmer 16 ga. profile is easily seen, more consistently reflecting the difference in bore diameter. Even if a 16 has a thick breech, unless the entire barrel is overly heavy the trimmer profile will be apparent nearer the muzzles.

I've never heard a discussion on the aesthetics of chamber wall thickness.

Jay

Are you sure the 14 bores are not the ultimate in the compromise of weight, slenderness, shot handling ability, etc. ? Does the 14 seem to have the best of all worlds?

The point is that with a 16 you can built light barrels with thicker walls than an equivalent light 12-bore, as well as making the action smaller.

There isn't one of you who have said a single thing I would argue with, except 16s looking slimmer than a light twelve from across the room. If they do, you all have far better eyesight than my 20/20.

But once again, the implications so often presented that the difference between most 16s and light 12s is so huge as to imply that all 12s are a blunderbusses and 16s are all lithe, little darlings, one so undesirable and inferior to the other, to which I say BULL.

Is the 16 becoming more popular? It sure seems that way. I see them at the range more often, and on gun racks as well, not to mention all the chatter on the internet about them. This thread is a testament to that as well, at six pages and still going.

I have a 30" 6.6lb lightly struck damascus Lefever 12, and a 30" heavy struck steel barreled 7lb Lefever 16, originally a duck gun. The 12 is lighter than its 16 cousin and slim for a 12, but still feels slightly larger than the 16. There's just no way around that. The 16, even at 7lbs, is my go to gun because it just feels right in my hands. I shoot it better than my 5.7lb 16 hammer gun as well, even though that gun is a very light little wand. Probably due to the long slim sighting plane and excellent follow through from the heavier barrels.

There is no denying that light 12's are very effective, but there is also no denying the "goldilox" just right subjective handling qaulities and effectiveness of a slim 16. And, with 16 ammo readily available to anyone who cares to look for it, I see no particular advantage in a light 12 over a similar weight 16 when shooting 1oz. loads.

Currently have 5 16 gauge sxs. One Merkel 122E (very hard to find gun), one Fox A grade (5 lb 10 oz), Two Fox Sterlingworth (30 and 32") and a Parker CH (1 frame) 28". The heaviest is the Parker. The Merkel is built on a true 16 gauge frame. 28" barrels and weight dead on 6 lb 7 oz.

I like them more then any other gauge. Interestingly enough, after swearing off on 12 gauge sxs, I now have 4 in the inventory. Can't figure how these things keep multiplying.

All the above said, my go to grouse gun is a Sterlingworth 20 gauge ejector with a beavertail. Looks weird, but man can I shoot that gun well. Its heavy for 20 with the beavertail. 6 lb 7 oz.

Nor is there any particular advantage in a 16 over a light 12 when shooting 1 oz loads.

The real advantage to light 12s is that there is so many more truly fine guns available in light 12s than there are similar quality 16s. A second advantage is that those 12s usually do not suffer the inflated price of the smaller bore.

I won several of each, and when the seasons end each year, my journal shows that I hunt more with those 6 pound 12s in my safe than I do with any of the 16s.

Why? Because the light 12s I own are really nicer guns than the 16s I have found. That's not to say they are not out there, but those I have seen were priced far above what a similar quality 12 in my safe cost.

Early on in this thread, I said I had L.C. Smith's in 16 ga. from hammer gun to Specialty Grade. I had forgotten about another, this one is a 1924-27 Fabrique Nationale d'Armes,16 ga. with 30" Krupp Steel barrels. It has side clips, Greener type cross bolt, fine 24 lpi checkering, Deeley type for-end release, and a raised cheek-piece stock. It weighs 6 lbs. 1.8 ozs. and is choked light mod/imp mod.(.016/.024) Chambers are 2 9/16" and bores are 17.0mm or .669.
A great gun to carry in the field and is deadly on pen raised chuckers and pheasants with light reloads. One of my favorites to use.

I have only one 16 gauge, but it is a nice one! Fun to shoot and a pleasure to look at. It is the best high grade SxS I have ever seen,of any make or grade, and a "one of a kind".
Click on my Photobucket link below to get a slide-show.

http://s1244.photobucket.com/albums/gg569/longlist1/?albumview=slideshow

21

WOW
Beautiful 1894
SWEET!!
Thanks for showing
Mike

my current favorite 16 is

I reload many thousands of both per annum.

Please list the significant advantages to the 12ga.

Isn't this the key issue? Thinner walled barrels on light 12-ga. gun are more likely to dent and can't take as much re-bluing and/or honing before the barrels get too thin. This is not to say they are inferior guns in any way, just that there are trade-offs for their thinner walled barrels.

Lovely gun Model2128Ga. A beautiful SxS that one shoots well is a grace to be thankful for.

I confess to a 16ga addiction. I have lost track of how many I have owned, traded, and sold. Today I have four 16 bores to include my original 16ga, a German guild BLNE (the first gun I successfully hunted with), a lovely Jules Bury Side-plated BLE, a very lightweight Greener FH50 BLE, and my best gun a Jules Bury made Louis Christophe 16ga SLE. The only non 16ga I shot is a near best Thomas Turner 12b Hammer-gun. One day I will have a matching 12b sibling for my Christophe (mostly because it was available and I could not resist a near matching gun) I sold off all my other lesser 16s, and 12s, and 20s other than my grandfather's M37 pump and Franchi auto (I may not shot them much, but I will never let them go)

I do not believe 16 gauge is a growing thing. If you want the convenience of buying shells locally and not having to carry a large basic load when you travel, don't buy 16. If you are ok with reloading special loads, and having few off the shelf non-toxic options, then 16 again is your choice. Fewer people carry the 16 to the field every year and that will continue. Just as the total number of guns going to the field declines. Within that number the percentage of 16s being used out the total guns being used will go down. I do not believe it will disappear but it will more and more become an affectation of connoisseurs

I obviously believe 16ga has merits. I am heavily invested in every possible 16ga reloading device, accesory, and component. I am so used to the looking down the lean width of a pair of 16 bore barrels, that looking across a pair of 12b barrels seems enormous. my favourite website is this one and 16ga.com.

To be a 16 gauge man you have to want it, because to do it right takes more effort. If you want it enough the effort is ok. You may actually take great pleasure in the ritual and process of all the challenges of the 16; I do.

That said when I brought my son a SLE to take with him as he leaves the house onto active duty it is an Italian 12b SLE because as the 16 is not his religion I wanted to make it easy for him to shoot without the complications of the 16.

16ga is my upland gun of choice. I enjoy the weight since the sxs's I have are 5 3/4 - 6 1/4 pounds so they never get heavy no matter how long the day. I like 28-30" barrels. I enjoy making and shooting my reloads. I never feel under gunned. I like to think of what these guns might have encountered with their previous owners. I try to give these guns good days afield.

Charles Daly 185


J. Blanch & Son



Franz Sodia


"To be a 16 gauge man you have to want it, because to do it right takes more effort. If you want it enough the effort is ok. You may actually take great pleasure in the ritual and process of all the challenges of the 16; I do."
Well said Old Colonel.

The dude with the leather snake boots may look like the late Harry Lillis Crosby (aka- Der Bingle) but he ain't. Bing shot Purdeys and driven birds in Spain, and dove in AZ with his best friend Phil (That's what I like about Da South) Harris- Harris shot a M12 in 28 gauge and was a first rate wingshot with it. I have no idea in Hell who the dopey looking other guy is- some Olde Fhart with a damn fine looking bird dog though.

Ask and ye shall receive:

1. Better hulls--many of which you can often pick up, once fired, on trap and skeet ranges. A lot of guys buy new Rem Gun Clubs and toss them. They reload about as well as STS . . . both of which reload better than anything I ever used in 16ga. That includes the venerable old Win AA 16's, which were supposedly the gold standard.

2. Readily available and cheaper wads.

3. Easier to work up low pressure recipes using a variety of (again) readily-available components, for those who shoot guns requiring low pressure.

4. Recent appearance of a 3/4 oz wad, which makes working up very light loads quite easy and simple.

Reloading for the 16 requires more tinkering, harder to find (necessary to order) components (which are also more expensive), and there are still no hulls as good as those available in 12ga (which run in cost from cheap to free).

I suppose "significant" is in the eye of the beholder but I see nothing significant to me on that list.

While I reload 7/8oz into twelve gauge shells for an eight pound double for trap the sixteen gauge game loads are no trouble. I bought a couple thousand of new Cheddite sixteen hulls. Three different types of wads. The 16 Gauge Reloaders Group has dozens of low pressure recipes. I get several reloads out of the Cheddites.

For bird hunting the cost of the shells is by far the cheapest category. It comes in well below any of the costs for bird lease, transportation, licenses, bottled water, motels, dog food, vet bills, electronic collars, trainers, and bird dog puppies.

Best,

Mike

1) What is "better?" I'll only concede the 12ga hulls are "better" if one insists on loading a hull more than 5 times. I don't load any hull more than 4 times...not even STS's. With a little effort, both 16ga and 12ga hulls are available free. Otherwise, they can both be bought for 5 cents each.

2) This is 2012. ANYTHING that can be purchased is "readily available." If you're capable of posting in this thread, you're only a few mouse clicks away from buying wads. There is ZERO practical difference in availability of 16ga and 12ga wads.

The 12ga wads ARE cheaper. The Claybuster AA16 costs 0.6 cents more than the Claybuster AA12. That's 15 cents more for a box of 25. I feel really badly for any reloader who invests hundreds of dollars in equipment and supplies and finds 15 cents/box to be cost prohibitive.

3) Easier to work up? Not for people who are still willing to learn something new. Google is your friend. There is a dedicated coterie of 16ga reloaders that has amassed a wealth of tested, "low pressure" recipes for 16ga reloaders.

4) There is a 16ga wad that will add 40 cents to the cost of a box of reloads relative to 12ga. Is $4.25 significantly more than $3.85 for a box of shells that matches the quality (and perhaps exceeds the utility) of $8/box premium target or $12/box premium field loads? That one wad, in conjunction with a Remington hull and any one of 4 or 5 other available 16g hulls, can be used to load anywhere from 5/8 to 1 ounce, with excellent crimps and NO filler. IME, there is no 12ga wad of comparable versatility.

Any contention that 16ga reloading components are not readily available is ludicrous. And most 16ga reloaders are by nature "tinkerers," not only willing but eager to learn something new. That mindset, like the 16ga, is not for everybody.

Say it isn't so! It was the Life Support article years ago that got me turned on to the 16 AND Double guns!

Looking at the supplies of guns and shells around here I don't see any upswelling in the popularity of the 16 gauge. That being said I also like the gauge a lot. As has been observed, light 12s are about the same in weight and handling as 16s. Neither is better than the other though, so individual preference is likely the main reason to choose one over the other (I have both types and they interchange well). For almost all of my hunting a 16 works just fine, but other hunters have their own thoughts.

At my age I'm not going to change my mind on 16s. Have wittled my flock down some by giving them to my daughjter and son both advid shooters as are several of my grandsons. Still have 5 self loaders, 2 slide actioons, 2 O/Us and 3 SxSs. A MEC Grabber for the 16s and abit of boughten ammo in 2.5 and 2.75 in. shells. I hunt all the birds with 16s, from woodcock to turkeys and geese and everything in between. What's not to like about the 16. Have picked up an Uggie Grade 3 in 16 that will probably get the most use this fall. I do think that I have enough and will not be looking for more unless it's a SxS or some other neat 16 ga. shotgun. Now have 16 ga. shooters in my family from 17 to 73. Obsolete, I don't think so.

Arguing with us 16 gauge devotees about the virtues of the 16 gauge is kind of like wrestling with a pig. All you are going to do is get dirty but the pig loves it.

LOL. So true. Oink oink.

I won't argue the virtues of the 16ga vs the 12ga, comparing guns. However, reloading . . . yeah, when I can go various local places and buy wads today if I need them, that's an advantage. If I want to reload a hull more than 5 times--and I certainly do that, both with 12ga and 20ga hulls--that also is an advantage. If I want to find recipes for low pressure loads, using a variety of components, I can look at either the Hodgdon or the Alliant websites. And yes, thanks, I know all about the 16ga forum and reloading group. I was part of it. Sent loads to Tom Armbrust for pressure testing. But what it comes down to is like cutting down 12ga hulls to reload 2 1/2", vs simply using readily-available, unaltered 2 3/4" hulls: more tinkering involved. I don't reload for fun. I reload to save a bit of money, and to work up loads that either aren't available commercially, or else are expensive. And since I'm not doing it for fun, I'd rather not make it any more problematic than necessary. So yeah, to me--and to all others who aren't tinkerers or who don't think of reloading as "fun"--the end result is that the 12 has significant advantages over the 16. And zero disadvantages that I can think of.

Larry, the disadvantage is, it isn't a 16.

Oink, oink.

I love my 16. I also love my 12. Both sxs, they are also very different guns in manifold respects. Reloading for the 12 is easier than for the 16, insofar as I don't have to deal with roll crimping. For the 16 (mine's got 65mm chambers), a roll crimping is the easier (for me) way to address the (solvable) problem of some reloaders not liking 65mm hulls.

But, other than that minor inconvenience, what's not to love?

I never have enjoyed reloading and frankly, I don't have the time. So, what Larry says makes a lot of sense to me. I do very much like a 16b but shells are a little limited for me. I can usually buy what I want, eg., RST, but have to plan ahead....but I do for a 12 too since I don't shoot high pressure in my English guns. I usually go with B and P or RST for a 12 or 20 b too.

I can think of one. 12 gauge shells are fat and ugly.

I can think of another: 16 ga shells are purple.

They're also--very commonly--red, black, and blue. Standardizing on one color for a gauge was a good idea. Seems ammo makers stick with it best in 20ga, not so well in the other gauges.

They are very popular with me.

16 ga ammunition and component availability is no longer much of a problem. Ammo and component prices are a bit higher vs the 12, certainly. Shot, primers, and powder are more significant cost drivers than are gauge-specific wads and once-fired hulls.

We all wish someone would make a CF 16 ga hull. Truth is, ammo makers are slowly moving away from CF hulls in all gauges. 16 ga hulls are not as pricey as .410s, so there's no need to try for 15 loadings per hull.

There are many reasons to fall for the 16. Mine is the 16 ga M-12. 12 ga versions are not walk-up guns in my hands. I've never developed a "scaled frame" obsession. But the 20 ga M-12 suffers from that argument.....in theory. I take long birds with my .021 prewar 16 alot better than I can with any 20 ga M-12 or auto - and every bit as well as with any 12 ga gun I've used.

Maybe the 16 best matches my level of incompetence. Reason enough.

Sam

My dad shot a 16; I've never cared to shoot anything else. I have a couple of 12's, a couple of 20's, and a little sxs .410, but when I got afield it's a 16ga I want hanging over my arm.

“It would be foolish and maudlin to insist that the 16 is irreplaceable; it obviously isn’t. It had its day and now it seems that day is over. Yet, somehow, I feel a warm spot in my heart when I meet a man whiling away an afternoon over a couple of bird dogs and when we stop to chat, the sleek lines of his double gun whisper “Sixteen.” There’s a magic in it to him that has its roots in days probably, and sadly, no longer with us. It makes me wish that things were a bit different than they are - and glad to know that there is someone carrying a “little gun” as much out of affection, or more so, than a proven belief in its ballistics.”.... Gene Hill, Shotgunner’s Notebook.

Some years ago I became interested in old Beretta SxSs'. Then after I discovered Beretta made 16ga SxS shotguns I really was hooked. The 16ga may be declining in the market but, in my house they are on the incline. I now have 8 Beretta 16ga SxSs and only two are the same model. I'm hooked and am beginning to wonder if an intervention is in order.
Ron

I have a number of 16s and hunt with them almost exclusively. (When traveling, I use 20s because of ammo availability issues.) My main gun is an Army & Navy, w/2 1/2" chambers, 30" bbls, made in 1896 by Osborne. The gun has an absolutely tight lockup.

While one can't get 2 1/2" ammo in the typical local gun shop, it is easily available over the internet. I generally use Gamebore shells w/ fibre wads, and shoot them in all my 16 bores, even the ones w/ 2 3/4" chambers. In the overall scheme of things, cost of ammo (except for expensive exotic non-tox, e.g. NICE)is irrelevant.

Cost of ammo is largely irrelevant if you only figure the shells you use for hunting. However, if you burn a few thousand rounds on targets/year, then it becomes more relevant.

I really don't think the 16's popularity or lack thereof has that much to do with the cost of ammo and its [minor] role in high volume target shooting, but rather its overall subjective handling qualities/between the hands feel, and use in the field. That's where it really shines and earns its devotees. Also, 28ga ammo is more expensive than 16, yet no one doubts its popularity. There seems to be a somewhat dismissive bias against the 16 by some that I find perplexing.

Yeah, the 16 is pretty worthless, redundant, outdated; but then so am I. Guess I'll just struggle on in ignorance with my sub-standard 16 gauge smokepole:

GF1, that's a great picture.

Very nice looking SxS too. Who's the maker of that gun?

Thanks,
CDog

I always thought the 16 ga. became popular in the USA after WW II when the soldiers brought them back from Germany.....and lost popularity because there was nothing the 16 ga. could do that the 12 ga. couldn't do a lot better.

Thanks - it's a Piotti.

16's often handle very well. Some of them, however--mostly American-made guns--were put on 12ga receivers as the gauge began to lose popularity and gun manufacturers were cutting the costs of production. With those, you get a gun that carries like a 12 and hits like a 20.

Expect I've owned and shot more 16's than maybe anyone here, so I don't "dismiss" them at all--but I do point out the gauge's disadvantages from a reloading standpoint. They also cost more than a 12 of the same make and model. And when you can find Brit/Euro 12's that are as light as many 16's, and often as thin in the wrist (if not in the barrels--less can be done about that!), and for which it's a piece of cake to work up low pressure reloads in American hulls, those are factors that merit consideration.

The 28 might very well have disappeared had it not been adopted as one of the official gauges in skeet. The gauge has been heavily touted by outdoor writers, especially for birds like grouse and woodcock, quail, and doves. And with more hunting taking place on preserves these days, the 28 is perfectly fine for put and take pheasants. And gunmakers on the Continent have responded by sending us a lot of quality sxs and OU's, resulting in a far better selection of 28ga game guns (as opposed to target guns) than used to be the case.

Come now, Larry, that is a perfectly logic but sterile assessment of the 16's virtue. Very true that it's hard to argue for it on logical terms, but it's the romance of the gun and it's overall effect that wins the day and the hearts of it's owner. As the late Gene Hill noted of the 16, in Shotgunner's Notebook,

"It makes me wish things were a bit different than they are - and glad to know that here and there is someone carrying a "little gun" as much out of affection, or more so, than a proven belief in its ballistics."

As much power as we need in the uplands, as light as most can shoot well, and an ephemeral quality the late Michael McIntosh described as "dancing with a ghost" - that is the 16. Her fading makes her all the sweeter...

Yessir, the 28 ga is the bees' knees. Lots of cheap, readily available reloading components out there. Heck, I've seen once-fired empties sell for only 20 cents apiece. And the huge volume shot by the skeeters keeps the price of factory ammo way down, too.

And of course, nothing handles 3/4 ounce, 7/8 or 1 ounce loads in a 5.5-6.5 lb doublegun like a 28ga magic wand, sprinkling fairy dust through the uplands. Why, I know any number of upland gunners who could hit one out of 12 grousea they shot at with a 12ga and, believe it or not, those guys do just as well with their 28ga guns. And they don't have to lug all that extra weight around.

They ain't nuthin' like a light 12, though. Ruger came out with a 6.5 12ga SxS and they must be almighty popular. I've seen lots more Rugers in the uplands than I have British light 12's and you just can't seem to find a Ruger in the local gunshop, no matter how many Brit light 12's you sort through. Too bad; them 3" chambered Rugers have a significant and unquestionable advantage over a lot of them Brit light 12's....no need to shop around for them hard-to-find short hulls and NOBODY wants to tinker with shortening hulls. It would be hell to run out of ammo on a pheasant hunt and have to run home to reload some special low pressure ammo. Yep, them Rugers are so popular they can't keep em in stock I reckon.

And those pen raised birds just fall out of the sky stone dead at the report of a 28ga. I can't recommend it for those tough wild pheasants, though. I hunted 'em once in 1994 and I can tell you, they're so tough that I only managed to wound them with a 12ga. And I was shooting #7 shot, too....pure pheasant poison.
Yessir, I learned all there is to know about hunting wild pheasants in 1994 and I'm sure nothing has changed since then.

Yes, Gene Hill, always puts me in mellow mood when I read his essays. A wonderful man and a man that I was blessed to call my friend.

For most of my bird hunting I use a 20bore or my little 28bore but if pheasants may be encountered I opt for my little 16bore Bill Hanus. Just a tad more persuasion

Vern

Pretty mysterious how the 16 carries like a 20 and hits like a 12, but when you add a few ounces it starts to hit like a 20. If anything it becomes more comfortable to shoot heavier loads ... so how does it no longer hit like a 12??

Among my field guns are 4 side-by-sides that weigh within an ounce of 6-3/4 lbs. -- a 12, a 20, and two 16s. That's the weight I shoot best for open country birds, and it's light enough for easy all day carry. Choke and load -- not gauge and not weight -- are the factors that distinguish how they "hit".

Jay

GF, Gene Hill had a brief fling with a 16 bore Greener with 24" barrels. Thought it would be the ultimate grouse and woodcock gun. A few years later, he was touting a 28 with 28" barrels. Not knocking the late Mr. Hill there, but gun writers in particular--because we try out a lot of stuff--tend to bounce around quite a bit. I've flirted with 28's (to much less of a degree than with 16's, however!) and like them a lot for everything up to and including preserve pheasants. But I'm down to 20's and 12's, the 20 doing everything for me a 28 will do--and again, cheaper reloading (especially with the new CB 3/4 oz wad.)

Mike, if you see more Ruger GL's in the field and at sxs shoots than you do Brit 12's, you're hunting different places and going to different shoots than I am. If you go to the Vintagers this year, please count up and report back. I think I may have seen a GL or 2 at the UP SxS Classic, but they didn't go out of production due to overwhelming popularity. And of course there's no need--at least not with the vast majority of Brit/Euro 2 1/2" 12's--to fool around with short hulls, or to shorten hulls. Standard American hulls work just fine. And they cost less and/or last longer than either 16ga or 28ga hulls.

As far as pheasants go, having hunted them since the 50's, I'd say pretty much nothing has changed. Or at least they haven't started wearing Kevlar, as American ammo makers seem to think--based on what they're promoting these days as pheasant loads. The vast majority of pheasant hunters could kill most of their birds with 16's, assuming rational choke and load choices. But of course if you can kill them with a 16, then you can also kill them with a 2 1/2" 12ga.

Larry, we agree on the 20:

"But I'm down to 20's and 12's, the 20 doing everything for me a 28 will do--and again, cheaper reloading (especially with the new CB 3/4 oz wad.)"

I sold my 28s over the last few years...I find that I can't shoot any gun below about 6# well, and if a gun weighs 6# it might as well be a 20 (more efficient w/ 3/4 oz. than the 28 ga.). I'm mighty tempted by some of the 28 gauge offerings, but reality has set in; hence, stick w/ 20s.

On the other hand, the 16s will stay, though I've only hunted with them since the late '60s. I know there are some mighty light 12s that will match the weight of my 16s, but they just don't feel the same.

On the practicality side, I've laid in enough compression formed hulls and WAA16s to last a couple decades, so I'll have ammunition aplenty. I've found an ounce and an eighth of magnum #6s to be a fine 16 ga. pheasant load too...and an ounce of hard #7s is just about the perfect chukar load.

Where I live, and do the majority of my shooting, 16 ga. ammo is a helluva lot easier to come by than 2 1/2" 12s! Sure, I can order anything, via internet or telephone, but I can buy 16s on sale at Bass Pro Shops for half the cost of ordering short 12s, even from Polywad, who is only a couple hours away from me. Jay doesn't run sales on his ammo, excellent as it is, and neither does RST, or the English ammo companies that I am aware of.

I own a beautiful little Hollis sidelock game gun, but never use it. If you want to pay $13-$15 a box for ammo (plus shipping!)so that you can carry a light 12 afield, go for it, but not me. I'm just too practical to get romantic about lightweight 12 ga. game guns.

SRH

Yea, but we just had a big discussion about going to hunt in Africa or some other remote place and I still don't know whether I should bring my 16 gauge or not because I don't know and still don't know whether I can get ammo for it or not. No one will give you a definitive answer yes or no. They usually just say "Don't you have a 12 or 20 to bring" or "Just use one of ours."

I love both of mine but I sure wish one of them was a 12 or 20 because I wouldn't have this problem.

All I know is this little 16 ga. Belgium guild gun makes my heart go pitter patter .

But this 16 ga.Husqvarna has recently come to live in my gunsafe so this fall there may be trouble in paradise .

I own a custom Fox 12 gauge that tips the scales at 6 lbs 12 oz. Well balanced, small grip and made to fit me. However, there is certainly a difference looking over those two barrels as compared to my 3 different Fox 16 gauges. There is something about a gun made in America and while I have zero doubt a lightweight british game gun can perhaps tip the scales at the same weight as some of my Fox 16 gauges (my lightest is 5 lb 10 oz) they aren't american made and I'd have to order my shells on line.

So in short, I'm staying with the 16 gauges for what I like to do and that's NE and SE grouse and woodcock work. They won't be the only Fox I carry as I'm also a big fan of the little Fox 20 gauges as well (have two of those). Guess in short, there is no totally right or totally wrong answer. I'm just glad we still have the option of the 16 gauge.

Amazing! Eleven pages in this thread so far, and no one has mentioned the advantage of the "square load" in the 16 as a basis of its superiority. A few years ago there would have been pages of argument over that. Although I have at least 6 sixteens, including Charlin, ND, Parker, Rem 1894, and 2 LC Smiths, none are my favored hunting gun. For quail, doves and preserve pheasant and chukar I use a 20, with either 7/8 or 1 oz of shot, for wild pheasant over pointing dogs I want a 12 ga with 1 1/4 oz of #5s. The 20 will do anything a 16 will, and is usually lighter with even more slender barrels. I believe that the 20 ga with modern shells is why the 16 is not more popular - its not needed.

I agree about the 20 for quail and doves, Tom. I have a 20 that has taken nearly 8000 doves, here and abroad. Only reason I use the 32" Elsie 16 for late season doves is that I just love looking down those long barrels. I have never felt the need for more than 7/8 oz. 7 1/2s on any doves, even the big, late season, tough migratory doves.

You make a very good point about the 20 stealing popularity from the 16.

SRH

For me this Samuel Buckley labeled Westley Richards in 16 gauge is pure fun.

Now, Tom...the 20 can't do everything the 16 can WITH A SQUARE LOAD! I guess I am of the opinion the 20 isn't needed because the 16 can do everything it can. The sixteen was the most optimized bore that could make a drilling truly portable in the early days, and therefore it will stay on board as long as I am alive. (since the guns I know of are on definitely on track to outlast me) In a perfect world I would be more in favor of 10/16 ga. domination than 12/20 as far as square loads go. Then again, a number of 10 guages are not exactly the definition of portability. Let the popularity slide--then I'll pick up some sweet sixteens for less money. Steve

I came to the 16 rather late, but as a lifelong reloader since age 14, I have yet to see a 20 ga. 7/8 oz or 1 oz load pattern better or out perform the same weight in the 16 ga. A lot of 20 ga. 3" loads were tested and I feel the same about the 3" 20 as the late Bob Brister; "Why would anybody want to shoot that high-pressure little bast***?" One of my 16's is the Harrod's (Webley action) pictured below. 29" barrels and a weight of 6 lb 3oz. With 2 1/2" shells and 7/8 oz of shot, I would put it up against any 20 ga. I won't mention one of my other favorite 16's as it has a single barrel and a moveable forend.
"
"Last time I saw a chance like you, I shot about there." - Nash Buckingham

Two big problems with the "Square Load" theory.
1st about 99% of folks don't even know what a Sq load is & only quote some gun writer's definition which happened to suit their purpose at the time. The oft cited 1oz load in a 16ga is a round ball equivilent load, not a sq load. By definition a sq lod is one in which the length of the shot column in the bore equals the bore dia. This will of course vary somewhat dependant upon shot size & density of the shot but for a general rule of thumb will equal approximately 79% of the round ball weight, which can of course be found (in ozs) by the simple expedient of dividing the ga number by 16 (OOOPS, was thinking one thing & wrote in reverse, you of course divide 16 by the gauge no). Thus a 16ga Sq Load is about .790oz or between 3/4 & 13/16oz.
2nd; There is really & in actuality no know proof that a Sq load makes any discernable difference in the performance of a shotgun pattern. If however one feels they just have to have a Sq load for effectivness about the two squarest loads you can find are the British 12ga game load of 1 1/16oz in a 12 or 1¼oz in a 10ga. I don't know how many times I have read that supposedly W W Greener was a big proponent of the SQ load. I only have a copy of his 9th edition of The Gun & its Developmaen, but the Sq load is conspicious in this book by its total abstinance, its just not mentioned. He did state in this book that the 10ga only offered advantage over the 12 with loads in "Excess" of 1¼oz as the 12 would handle that amount of shot quite as effeicently as the 10. This of course was prior to the development of progressive burning powders.

I figure the square load theory was carried over from the muzzle loader ?

I've shot a bunch of patterns with various 16's, none of which have been square--even when using 1oz loads.

Stan, if you're paying more than $10/box for RST 2 1/2" 12's, before shipping, they must be charging you a premium. $100/flat on my price sheet. And you avoid the shipping charge if you show up at any of the shoots they attend. Just call ahead of time and pick up there.

But for some bizarre reason, people keep missing the fact that you don't need to buy factory 2 1/2" shells for most 2 1/2" chambered guns. How many times do we have to relearn what Sherman Bell established in one of his early "finding out for myself" articles in DGJ--and which, for that matter, Major Burrard and Gough Thomas both pointed out decades earlier? Assuming pressures appropriate to the gun in question, we can shoot 2 3/4" hulls in short-chambered guns. Even works for 16's and 20's, as well as for 12's. (Shot a couple rounds of skeet with a 2 1/2" Elsie 20ga last evening, 3/4 oz reloads in unmodified STS/AA hulls.) I can produce nice, low pressure 12ga reloads in standard American factory hulls cheaper than you can buy 16's, even when you find them on sale at Wally World.

And 2-Piper, it's news to me that the square load abstains. I always figured it was so much BS that it had to be drunk.

Larry, what about a short chambered gun, say a svelte Husky 16, that has a sharp transition between the chamber/forcing cone vs a smoother one like a Fox has? I've never shot anything other than 2 1/2" shells in my Huskys due to this.

Mike

Larry did say "most." My Manufrance Ideal will not lock up on even 67 mm factory loads, and my 2 1/2 " reloads have to be perfect.

Happy 4th. I am simply delighted to discover how many 12, 20 and 28 fans we have on this site. That leaves more 16's for me and more 10's for j0e.

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I don't really know where the Sq load theory originated, as far as I am aware of neither Greener or Burrard mentioned it, even though it seems to most often be credited to the "British". Sonds like some BS that Thomas may have come up with.
I think the most ludicrous I ever saw on it was in the premier issue of a Shotgun rag Peterson Publishing introduced some years back. Don't recall the author now or most of the details, but was a treatise on the 28ga as a Duck gun. Great emphysis was placed on the superior patterns produced by the 28 due to its Sq Load. He subscribed to the round ball equivelent as a Sq Load. Then, Rightly, told this could be found by dividing 16 by the gauge which for the 28 resulted in .57. He then stated this "Conclusively" proved the 3/4oz load in the 28 was the "Perfect" Sq Load. Now I don't really know if he was actually that Ignorant or just though all his readers were, but I learned along time ago in elementary school math as we studied decimal fractions that .57 & .75 even though they contain the same two digits, the reverse order makes them not even close kin much less identical twins.

I have read all about square loads in 16 & 28. I have never actually done scientific performance comparison of 16 ga loads so I have to go on what is written.

I have read all about the patterning. From my experience in the field and range I believe the overwhelming number of hunters and target shooters never truly pattern their guns. Most of those who pattern their guns never go beyond shooting a few sheets of paper and call it good.

I have done some patterning comparing Nickel silver, magnum lead, and soft lead. I have compared choke tube performance on my Citori 16 and chokes in several 16s. I have shot a great many patterning board shots to compare fit. Though I have probably done more than most, I am an amateur and have only a clue. My one sure knowledge is that the variables are tremendous

The reality is most of us depend on someone elses patterning research. Some of what appears in articles in magazines and in books is well written, some not, and some horrific bull.

I do not know if square loads matter or not. They sound nice, but I think it is sound, not a magic reality. It maybe a sound based in the reality of stumbling across the relationship of barrel diameter shot charge weight resulting in proportionally good shot string length

I have no doubt shot string length does matter. Unfortunately like so many things in shotgunning while true it is only one of the many variables that have to be considered. Over emphasis on any one variable is counterproductive.

Is the shot string produced by a 16 magically better than other gauges? I doubt it is. Does the 16 with 1oz or 7/8oz perform acceptably; I have no doubt it does. A good gun and load in any gauge is just that a good gun and load.

If you like to play with mathamatics, which I do, take a long hard look at the early loads as breeech loading shotguns were developing, in particular early smokeless loads. Basically all the varieties of early smokeless had a very similar burn rate. It was not until the 1920s that progressive burn powders were introduced. One thing which will very quickly stand out is that all the gauges were loaded very near proportional to their bore "Area". This was of course based on the burn rate of the powder. Taking the 1 1/8oz 12ga as a standard proportionate loads in 16ga would be 15/16oz, 20ga = 13/16oz & 10ga = 1¼oz. These loads would all have very near the same "Length" of shot column in their respective bores. It is of course worth noting, though never seeming to be the size the Sq Load theory is applied to, The 10 is very close to the Sq Load while the smaller ones all have a longer column than their bore dias.
I think that Joe may well have a point that a lot of this dates back to MLing days when the majority of guns were in the 14-10 ga range & a rule of thumb was to load powder, wadding & shot all to have a length equal to the dia of the bore. This did not apply even then to the smaller sizes. Note that the burn rate of the powder is to a large extent based upon the weight of shot it has to propel in relation to the area of the wad it has to push against. This area is basically proportional to the Square of the dia of the bore.
In my opinion a SQ load is purely co-incidental & means a Big Fat ZIP. I don't believe any knowledgable person can deny the 12ga 1 1/8 oz load has proven to be highly successful & very versatile load, yet is neither a Sq Load or a Round Ball equivelent, so according to some would be mostly useless.

Talk about loading a length of shot/powder equal to the bore diameter - go look at one of the old adjustable powder/shot dippers. Mine is calibrated for fractional ounces of lead shot, and drams (equiv) of powder. The same volumes used for both powder and shot. (v = a*h)

E.g., http://www.bacyksportingcollectibles.com/parkerdipper1.jpg

Just saying.

I have fired a few "unsquare loads", think 3" 20 gauge, and can report that the results, with lead shot, are mostly underwelming. The same loads, in steel, seem to perk up a bit on the pattern board, but, I always lose interest, and start shooting a 12 at that point.
I inherited a bunch of heavy loads for 12 gauge, a lot of it pretty much useless for me (3" lead 4s, 3 1/2" anythings) but, the 1 1/4 oz loads of 5s and 6s sure flatten pheasants. Funny what getting ammunition for free does to one's opinion of it.
Not that I'd buy anymore of it....


Best,
Ted

Dave;
If you study those old powder & shot dippers, you will note an error in their markings. "Most" though not all, have the same setting for various amounts of shot & poeder. shot is normally marked in 1/8oz increments & powder in ¼ dram increments. At the 1oz setting for shot the powder normally reads 2½ drams. This is pretty accurate, however if it goes far enough to double the capacity (I have one which does) to 2 oz, the logically the powder should also double to 5 drams, but recall it has gone up by 8 ¼dram increments so arrives at 4½ drams instead. Each change of volumn equal to 1/8oz of shot actually changes the powder charge by about 5/16 drams, but most measure are not so marked. I do have a little Lyman dipperich does not have the preset notches, but is simply set to a line by friction. Shot markings are on one side & powder on the other. The lines do not co-inside as the do on the majority of these dippers, so would seem to give a more accurate reading of the actual powder drams. Most that I have checked seem to be pretty close on the amout of shot dipped. By simply using the same setting for dipping Black the charge will be a good one, though may not be just what the measure says it is.
Ted; As best as I can recall I can't think of a single game bird or animal which I have ever killed with a Square Load. I have simply never hunted with any of the following, .410 = 3/16oz, 28ga = 9/16oz, 20ga = 5/8oz, 16ga = 13/16oz, 1ga = 1 1/16oz or a 10ga with 1¼oz. With only minimum rounding those are esentially the Sq loads for the different gauges.
Much more important is a load balanced to the size of the bore, in relation to the desired shot charge & burning rate of the powder. This can of course be done for any conceivable size of hole down the bbl within the range available burning rates of powder at hand. Irregardles of the gauge one should load a lighter charge for Red Dot than for Blue Dot etc.

PS; I suppose you are aware that if you put a 1 5/8oz load of shot in a 20ga it would have a shorter shot column than 3/4oz in a .410. The normal 1¼oz load for the 3" 20 is only very slightly longer than the ½oz .410 load. Ever wonder why the .410 is normally loaded with rifle powder rather than shotgun powder?

Give me a 6lb 3-4 oz SXS 16 gauge with 29" - 30" barrels....... not practical? I guess then I don't want to be practical.
Any thing that needs more I use a single barrel with a magazine and shoot 3 1/2" roman candles.

I wonder sometimes if opinions about the 16 are affected by geography to a significant degree. East of the Rockies, a 20 is fine for grouse and quail at normal distances. I can see why people there might not see the need for a 16. West of the Rockies however, in the prairies and scab lands where chukars and huns are often had at 30-45 yds, I find a 20 lacking, while a slim 16 with a fast load of 1 or 1 1/8oz of 7's or 6's is the cat's meow.

Oink oink.

As long as a gun throws 1 ounce of #7.5 @ 1220 fps and meets my criteria for the job at hand (fit, handling and pretty wood) the gauge, as long as it's a 20, 16 or 12, is secondary to me. I find none lacking and no magic in any of them. That applies to everything from skeet targets and starlings to ruffed grouse and FITASC clays.

A 16ga was the "Darling" of many an old Southern "Bird" hunter both in doubles & in the early pumps & semi autos. The A5 in Sweet 16 guise was a great favorite of many. To you yanks, in the South Bird means the Bob White quail. Any other species one might hunt was called by name, but when one went after quail they were Bird Hunting. I think the fact that the 16 was skipped in the regular line up in skeet probably had more to do with its decline than any other factor. The 16 could only be shot against the 12s, so if one had a twenty to shoot in that class it simply didn't make much sense to also have a 16.
The vast majority of my hunting has been done with the 12 & 20s, but I do like the 16 as well. For those of us who still like the classical American doubles it is still easier to find a 16 in the 6-6½ lb range than a 12 & they are generally less costlier than the same grade gun in a 20. The vast majority of US 12s are over 7lbs, I do realize lighter ones were built, they are not the ones most commonly found.
I do have A Lefever 12ga in H grade with 28" twist bbls which weighs 6½lbs. Also have an H grade 16 with 28" twist bbls that weighs 6 3/4lbs. And "YES" stood up across the room, even looking through my glasses for my less than perfect 74 year old eyes, that 16 still has a neater & trimmer look. Also in spite of its heavier than normal for a 16 weight it was built on the smaller XX frame. I did pay more for this 16 than I did for a 12ga FE, but the fact it was some 20 yrars later was the major factor there.

Or perhaps a 2 1/2" 12 with the same load. (The only reason I specify 2 1/2" is because, on average, they're lighter than 2 3/4" 12's--although you can find some lightweights there too.)

There can certainly be a problem with short-chambered guns that have very short forcing cones with a sharp taper. In some of those, you do need to shoot 2 1/2" hulls. Although one solution--which will not take a gun out of proof--would be to lengthen the cone.

Treblig1958, I reckon your chances of buying a slab of 16 bore cartridges in Africa is the same as Sophie Loren being transported back in time to 1955 and turning up at my doorstep and asking me out to dinner with a happy ending ;)best, Mike

Amen Mike Campbell, though I admire Prince Charles in UK, normally only ever shoots his pair of Purdey 28´s (he calls them his peashooters) and he only shoots high wild driven pheasants and partridge) but he doesn´t miss much ! Mind you, I´d like his amount of practice

Mike, that is what I was afraid of!! Great gauge when you're close to home, but don't leave home with it.

16 gauge shooters learned some time ago that once you step out into the cold cruel world you become self sufficient as far as ammunition goes. That is why I usually pack four boxes of shells with various shot size and charge to cover all contingencies for a one day hunt. I may forget one of my guns, my rain gear, or my dog whistle (couldn't forget my dog because he always beats me to the Landcuiser)but never my ammunition. If you are really paranoid about running out of ammuntion just invest in a couple of 20 gauge chamber mates. Remember P poor planning leads to P poor performance. On the plus side shooting a 16 gauge really keeps your hunting buddies from bumming your ammunition.

TB, Chamber mates? Can someone please clue me in on chamber mates? Will they work on any shotgun of any action type, pump, auto loader, etc?

My experience of 16ga ammo availability differs form those talking about scarcity. I can find the excellant 16ga Fiocchi Golden Pheasants loads in any sporting goods store when I am on the road hunting pheasants and grouse. The bigger sporting goods store have a wide range of 16ga ammo to chose from, as well. I've even been able to find 16ga at gas stations.

That being said, I am very particular about what ammo I feed my guns when hunting regardless of gauge, and thus always buy exactly what I want on the interenet and bring it along. Just like gas for my car, with a little planning I've never come close to running out.

Here, what about in Africa or Alaska, or some other "remote" place? But that question has already been addressed by Mike in that you probably should leave the 16 gauge at home when traveling to and hunting in Africa as you don't have a snowball's chance in he!! of getting ammunition for it.

Treblig they are chamber reducing tubes manufactured by various companies. Mine are marketed as "Little Skeeter" and work by reducing the chamber size to accommodate 20, 28 or .410 ammunition in 16 gauge chambers. They will work in all types of action but are only really practical in a break action because you have to insert a new shell into the tube each time you fire the gun. Admittedly they are a PITA but they do work.

I have shot them (the Silvers) only in doubles. Most recently, using 20 ga reducers in a 1910 Lefever 12 with a few moderate bore pits; makes the pressure drop faster and the pattern size is the same.

Gaugemate tests show very little variance in velocity.


http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=234173&page=2

I never considered that. Well, that's the answer right there, chamber mates. Can you suggest a brand or a place where I can get 20 gauge chamber mates for my 16 gauge Ithaca? Or should I just look on the internet?

Gaugemates are probably the best but there are several manufactures that make them. Cabala's handles them. Not sure of which maker though.

Don't think Cabelas sells the Gaugemates anymore. It's where I got mine at $50 a pair. Chamber mates are more expensive.

Cabala's is showing one set of Gauge Mate Silvers on hand in 16 gauge/.410 looks like a close out item for $39.00 a pair.

Here is a link to Gaugemate: http://gaugemate.com/purchase/gaugemate-silver
They are listing them a bit higher ut their retailers may be discounting them.

Amazing!!! I used this thing called "Google" and searched for Gauge Mates. You know what? Yup, it took my computer screen to a website where one may purchase them directly:

http://www.gaugemate.com/purchase/gaugemate-silver

Arn't these new fangled computer things special...

I use Gauge Mate Silvers for reduction from 10 to 12 gauge. Even in a ejector gun they work great and I have NEVER had a Gauge Mate eject from the gun.

Mark, are you saying they are the best make? Or did you have problems with the other types other than Gauge Mates?

Gauge Mate Silver reducers are, for about $60, the best value.

One can grind off a third of the rim which allows for extracting empties using one's thumbnail. This makes them functionally the same as the more expenaive Gold model.

Mark

Ya'll have got way more patience than me. Pulling hulls out with your thumbnail? That's even worse than a normal extractor gun. At least with extractors you can use your thumb and first finger tips to pull them out.

SRH

What do you have to do? Do these chamber mates override even the extractor?

Since this is a 16ga thread, I should probably note that GaugeMate sold me a set of 20ga Silver inserts for my 16ga Parker with short chambers. Told me at the time that I could shorten the GaugeMates to match the Parker chambers. Don't know if this is still the case, but nobody else was selling 16/20 inserts. The other manufacturers were pushing the 16/28 insert which doesn't do much to solve the problem of ammo scarcity in small towns.

No brother Stanley is referring to the need to extract the fired hull from the Gauge Mate tube before loading a new shell into the tube. Like I said in my first post chamber reducer tubes can be a PITA but if you screw up and run out of shells and can't find the proper ammunition or you just want to burn up some excess smaller gauge shells they can be valuable, they may even save your hunting trip.

I have used savage 16-410 inserts for preserve birds with decent success. I find the reduced sound of the 410 and picking shots carefully is good for young dogs

I carry in the truck both 16-20 & 16-28 gaugemates other than test firing them once I have never used them in the field. Like many others I carry them for insurance in case beyond all odds I run out of shells and need to buy some locally. Because I carry them I have never run out of shells.

while the inserts are amusing to play with they are not really needed.

I have more than once said I carry a back up gun on long trips to ensure my primary never breaks. To date that has been a sound theory as my primary double has never broken. I have no doubt the one time I go with one gun it will finally break.

That’s the ticket right there I believe just keep them in the truck in case you run out of 16 gauge ammunition and have to buy 20 gauge at a small local gun shop. I'm guessing here but from all of your responses it seems that these chamber reducers are not made for high volume shooting.

GaugeMates and Chambermates are two very different versions of the same concept. Chambermates, which were available through Seminole Gunworks and is otensibly out of business due to divorce proceedings of the owner, have an ejector that functions with the host gun to eject empties, though they will only eject AA's or STS's and not any imported shell, which limits them quite a bit to those two brands. I've used my 12/20 Chambermates a lot in SC competition for 20 ga. events and they work great.

Gaugemates are just a stainless steel sleeve that has no moving parts, so you have to remove the entire unit each time to remove the fired hull, UNLESS you do a simple procedure of grinding away a small part of its rim to allow room for your fingernail to engage the rim of the fired hull and remove it and leave the GaugeMate in the chamber. It works just fine to do this, but there is a major drawback in that it is not well-suited to ejector guns.
JR

I have not had any issues ejecting/extrating AA hulls with the current 20 to 410 chambermates I used to use with a 20 Francotte I owned. So I am not sure all of them have issues with AAs or STSs

Noticed a visitor reading this thread last week and I wondered how the gauge was faring now some years later. That in turn brought back to mind an article by Greg McReynolds that I saw last fall in SS. With all the new guns being built for the 16b I’d say it’s doing alright.
https://shootingsportsman.com/sweet-over-unders/

I have more than several, I see no need for a 20

16 bore Reilly dated 1886, SN 27853. 3/4" original chambers; 30" Whitworth barrels choked cylinder, 1/2. Side lever. Flat rib. My favorite gun.



Previously discussed here:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=557199&page=1

Yeee Haww
Wonderful shotgun of distinction !!
Mike

Nice gun and that's an excellent upland choke combo.

I use a 16 gauge for just about all of my upland and duck shooting. I got my first one, an Ithaca Model 37 while a teenager.

Personally, I think it is a niche gauge in the USA today. Historically, it was known as the Queen of the Uplands and in many ways it still is. As we all know, better loads in 20 gauge and lighter guns in 12 along with the availability and choices of ammunition in those gauges pretty much pushed the 16 aside.

Whenever a major manufacturer brings a new one out or reintroduces one like the Browning Citori or Remington 870 it brings renewed excitement but then it dies down again and they get dropped from the line.

We like it for the nostalgia, and we know how good it is. If the different Facebook pages devoted to the 16 gauge are any indicator, it will be around for awhile and many young shooters are discovering it too. I enjoy reading the posts of young people who have acquired a nice 16 either by purchase or pass down.

I think I need a 16 gauge again. Sold my Evans hammer gun, but I still have ammo for it. I probably need to buy a gun just to shoot down that ammo..

You do!

Feel free to help. I'm trolling GI this morning. A few nice French guns, including a Manufrance. So odd and streamlined. I like it, but those triggers in January, with gloves? I don't think so. And that safety issue. But tempting nonetheless.

I have a nice little 16 bore British gun, great wood if a bit oily, nicely engraved. I still need to check it over a bit but it should make a fine field gun.Lloyd and co. 28" tubes.

My theory on the 16 gauge popularity is the PURPLE hull..the combo of Red and Blue Mixed!

"Effect Of Colors: Blue Boosts Creativity, While Red Enhances Attention To Detail"

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090205142143.htm#:~:text=Red%20boosted%20performance%20on%20detail,under%20the%20red%20colour%20condition.

Seriously, I can vividly remember each hunt and almost every shot after dropping in/extracting a pair of Federal Purple shells/hulls....good memories..

Is there perhaps a cognitive connection?

Steve,
It won't hurt to try to entice me. I'm not sure what I want but 2.75" chambers and at least a modified choke would be part of it. 28", pistol grip, light, I don't know. Tempt me.

Steve,
It won't hurt to try to entice me. I'm not sure what I want but 2.75" chambers and at least a modified choke would be part of it. 28", pistol grip, light, I don't know. Tempt me.

Doug, there might be something to your The Color Purple Hypothesis. I get mighty tired of red and green hulls. I'm hoping to shoot blue tonight, if it just tries to dry up a little...

Brent,

Righto! If it doesn't quit raining that dove with the olive leaf may take on a more modern application. : ) We were rained out most of the first week, so a limit of trout in the mornings was in order before heading to the fields. Fin & Feather.

Trout in Tulsa? That's cool.

The high tempts today and yesterday did not quite make 50F and it never stopped raining. I'd like to test some patterns this afternoon and maybe shoot a couple of rounds of trap, but it's got to at least dry up a bit.

And last weekend I was whining about how hot and dry it was. ...

Brent,

I just found my post from 10 years ago on "Fin & Feather" and updated it..lol.

Hope you get a chance at those Iowa birds before they head this way!

Re-read McReynolds’ article this morning after breakfast. We’ve all heard the various reasons for the 16’s decline. Most of them have been touched on in this thread. McReynolds has a different take that I’d never thought of but rings true.

“It is a gauge built for the field and nothing else.

The near demise of the 16 gauge is what helped it become the perfect upland gun. When it fell out of favor during the second half of the 20th Century, it became just unpopular enough that no one tried to turn it into something it wasn’t.

The fact that it never became a popular target round meant that the 16 remained light and ready for the field. Its unpopularity during the rise of steel shot meant that no one bothered to lengthen its chambers.”

I can see that but after 60+ years of shooting the gauge I didn’t need any convincing.

Funny, my first decade plus with the 16ga was done almost purely with Winchester AA 16ga Red hulls, and the occasional green Remington Express.

Lately my most common 16 ga hull has been RMC brass.

I love them.

Great pic! Beautiful birds and sweet 16. We don't get 'Timberdoodles' down here often, hoping to see some during our December dove season.

Doug, I really like your post of mixed bags like that. Sadly, there is no fish that I want to catch in the teal ponds I am hunting lately.

I think every hunting and shotgunning forum on the internet has a long thread on the demise of the 16 gauge.

I feel attracted to this one, except for the Cyl/Cyl chokes. Looks like a fun gun to rehab
https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...=101411702#lg-4


I see a lot of nice guns with wood extentions of several inches. I just can't pull the trigger on them.

We get a few doodles down here in the SE corner of the US. Gil

Brent,

Maybe Tilapia in those Teal Ponds?

Here are a few interesting 16 gauge guns for sale...

http://www.crosnoeguns.com/product/13364.html

http://www.crosnoeguns.com/product/12373.html

http://www.crosnoeguns.com/product/13297.html

Kittery Trading Post sometimes has some 'sleeper' deals a good sight to watch..

https://www.kitterytradingpost.com/new-u...efv1=16%20Gauge

That Matador could be interesting if you don't mind it missing one trigger and a fairly straight stock? They are glad to send pics when you ask.

I see that this thread has aged well. 16's have become even more popular since 2012, and I don't see that changing. I've sold all but one of my 12's, in favor of them. There is a subjective magic goldilox quality about them that I've not found in any of the other gauges. Viva la 16!

Michael... I shoot 12 gauge, put a red shell in the right and a blue in the left and pull both triggers at the same time = purple shoulder..

Gil..WOW ..'dream team'

That's a beautiful gun, Mark. Are those colors original or restored? Love to see one of those "in the flesh".

Gil, I'd forgotten just how nice the wood on that Ideal turned out.

Many years ago I sold everything in the safe except three favorite 16ga SxSs. No need or desire for anything else.

Another 16ga enthusiast here. I also love the 16ga shotguns and I have 3 of them. Nothing as beautiful or high-end as the above gun. However, each one is special to me and I enjoy taking them afield or for a round of clays. Maybe the fact I learned shooting my grandfather's old Steven's 16ga SxS make me bias, but I will not let that change at all. BillK

I agree the gauge is worthwhile, and perhaps ideal in many ways.

My only specimen is a Sweet Sixteen which is very sweet indeed but it gets little use because I can shoot its twin sister magnum 20 for half the cost using standard 20ga shells which it cycles perfectly.

You cannot tell the difference between those two guns blindfolded unless you cheat and feel up the barrel. I suspect this would be the case with most 2 barrel 16/20 sets or 20/28 sets also. The difference is so insignificant that those who listen to inner logic instead of inner romance select the 20 gauge 'most' of the time.

The 16 would be more popular (as would the 28) if the ammunition companies didn't overcharge us for shells.

I would not pass up a nice double in 16 if it were to find me, but I've never actively looked for one. I feel well served with the 20 gauge.

Bill,

That's what I've enjoyed about this board throughout the years, a great cross section of double gun lovers from a beautiful Holland and Holland, Purdey, W. Powell etc. to Stevens, Fulton or JABC, etc.
My first 16 was a Stevens as well, my buddy's an Iver Johnson and CYCLE WORKS (too cool) that we shot doves with in the African Savannah type flora of SW Oklahoma. The incredible wealth of knowledge and acceptance here lead me to delve into damascus guns and even break into a 'high end' gun. It's great to see the incredible pics of all of these guns in action and the stories that go with. It's seems most people here have a respect for whatever your 'bias' or nostalgia may be. At present, I tend to leave the pretty ones at home and find pleasure in hunting with the 'field grade' guns. However, I'm fairly certain that will change as more gray hair and shuffling of the feet comes on. I'm looking forward to turning some of these over to my progeny so that they can carry on these traditions.

indeed....i noticed he was airing out his turnips....

Flying turnips are fine with woodcock. Gil

I have came to the same conclusion as Mark. I have thinned the herd to 6 sixteens, actually 7. I do have an old Brno ZP for the rain and only 3 12s.

Prefer the German and Belgium stuff.

Very well said Doug. I enjoy all the above you state and I have learned a lot from the members who post on the forum. In many many cases they have been patient with answering my questions and helping me out. BillK

I'm presently at four 16's and two 12's and holding. (3 SxS's, 2 OU's, and 1 auto)

I've been shooting my Sauer Model 8, built in 1911, for 71 years and have a few domestic doubles in my klunker collection. Joined the 16ga Society 8-10 years ago. Looks like they are now defunct and see memberships are closed. Never did hear from them after I joined. Can't hunt any more (can't see my big wirehair much less flying doves!) and have a lot of 16 ga paper and plastic empties if anyone needs them. Also reloading dies and lots of reloads, all an ounce of 8's in Federal plastic hulls.

Unfortunately, Doug Oliver, the founder of the 16ga Society, died in 2014 and the Society has been in limbo since. That might explain why you didn’t get a response after you joined. The 16ga forum, however, remains active thanks to skeettx and others.

PM sent

Link to the 16 ga forum?

http://www.16ga.com/home.html

http://www.16ga.com/forum/index.php

16ga.com/forum

Enjoyed reading this post from the beginning. Would agree that there are more options for 16 gauge guns today than in 2012. I shoot 16s and enjoy them. Also reload for clay shooting. I am sometimes encouraged to buy a dedicated sporting clays gun but so far I really enjoy shooting my 16s at the range and in the field. I am not convinced there is an ideal gauge, rather I like to think we have been blessed with craftspeople over time that have made guns in every gauge that are the pinnacle of craftsmanship and perfectly suited for their intended purpose.
Shot doves with my son yesterday. The '48 Merkel was paired with some relatively old ammo. The gun/ammo worked well together. Nice change of pace to see those paper hulls!

I believe they have been restored. I like how subdued they are. I'm working on the stock now, hope to have it done by mid October.

I like it for the same reason, that's why I was wondering. If they have been restored, it sure would be nice to know who did it.

A mighty handsome gun to be sure.

If 16’s are becoming more popular, then they must be appreciating in terms of value. Are they approaching 20 bore values, or maybe even more since 16’s are generally more scarce and rare?

The way it's been for sometime is that they are sold somewhere between 12 and 20 ga. prices condition being equivalent. Gil

That does not seem to have changed. I'm skulking around looking for one. Your estimate seems spot on.

Except for clouds of skeeters, I had a nice opening day walk through my 43 ac mid-grass prairie restoration plot. Hard to see or hear grouse with them screeching in my hearing aids while wiping them off my face. A light rain earlier and gentle breeze provided perfect scenting conditions for my GWP [img:center]http://[/img] Gus who I could see only when in close. He flushed six sharptails that I might have shot at if seen in time plus two singles, but they might have been pheasant hens. At least I made the birds a bit warier for those that will hunt later.

Pic is my old Sauer 16, a $35 WWII bringback from Cpl. Zimmermann with his bag of Lugers, Walthers PPKs and P38s plus small items and some nice doubles. [img:center]http://[/img]

Gene Hill, in his Shotgunners Notebook of 30 years ago, set out to describe the ideal upland gun. After listing his choices for physical and field properties, he concludes with aesthetics. “And what would we have? That almost-forgotten darling of a few generations past: the 16-gauge.”

Most discussions of the very capable16b (this one included) have plenty of objective comparisons with 20’s and 12’s. What seems to set the 16 apart, though, and fuel its continuing life are the subjectives. Some of these are easily described. Others are more difficult. But all, together, are experienced and enjoyed whether recognized or not. And the result? The 16 lives on quite well. And I think it will continue to.

(The 600-700 views a day here since this thread was revived also seems to reflect strong interest in the gauge.)

(I guess I should mention that I leave tomorrow for a road trip across the Midwest which includes a stop to pick up a “new” 113 year old SxS. And, yes, it’s a 16.)

He also added the caveat that his 16 bore Greener with 24" barrels was not his Vade mecum for upland accurate shooting- maybe in the thick nasty tangles that woodcock seem to prefer--RWTF