I bought a Ugartechea boxlock as a project. I am not sure of the model, could be a falcon or 221. Looks like someone let it corrode badly, and then covered it up with Gunkote!

Anyway, it will not reliably cock the right hammer. If you really "snap" open the action it will cock, but not all the time. I pulled the bottom plate to see what is going on, and it almost looks like the sear is longer on that side. I measured the distance from the cocking rod (just as a point of reference) to the sear and it is .6 even on the left side (where it works) and about .590 on the right side. I have no way of knowing if this was ever replaced.

I am of course tempted to just start stoning the sear until it cocks reliably, but wondered if there was something else I should dig into before doing so.

I know working on the sear without being a trained, bonded and licensed gunsmith is going to end in disaster.

Thanks,
CHAZ

You said it, not me. I'd be looking more at the angle of the sear and notch than the length of the sear...Geo

There's so much interaction of components and functions going on during cocking that diagnoses by internet is not practical.

I can see that the hammers are marked left and right in marker, so someone had it apart recently. It is so close to working that when I open the gun if I pull up on the sear it will move into place and lock on the hammer.

Could it be that something was swapped side to side upon reassembly (such as a cocking rod)? I can only assume that the gun worked before being torn apart to be coated. I would rather try almost anything else first before stoning away any metal.

CHAZ

Try disassembling, cleaning, lube.

Then try putting each component in the frame independently to see if there is any binding. Also make sure the sear springs have adequate force. Then reassemble the side that is giving trouble and diagnose. Either it's not cocking the hammer far enough, the sear is too long, or the sear isn't being pushed into the hammer notch. Lots of reasons for each.

With all due respect, I do believe Chuck H forgot the last - and most important - step in the process he describes:

SELL that chunk of Basque BS once you get it together!

The Uggies do not have a reputation of being bad guns. Quite the contrary. My own example Uggie boxlock has been more reliable than the crowd of good English boxlocks (all very much gone down the road, thank you) that haunted my gunsafe over the years. The Uggie is much younger than they were, and was proofed to a higher level, but, other than cosmetic repairs initiated by myself (someone put a white line pad on it) it is simply a bullet-proof A & D boxlock, that needs no excuses made for it.

The original poster noted he bought it as a project, it had been at the very least neglected, and perhaps abused. Such things can often be made right.

Explain, if you will, why you think he should sell it, or why you would disparage a gun of any make, simply from knowing about one paragraph of internet communication about it.


Best,
Ted

Mr. Ted:
Your knowledge is obviously far beyond mine, thus I and the rest of this respected BBS must defer to you.

Nonetheless, I can still have my opinion. And my view remains that 95% of all Spanish guns - especially "Uggies" - are junk and not worth the human effort to have been made in the first place -- let alone repaired.

But that is just my opinion. However, I'm sure your professionalism far exceeds mine, and that we should all follow your wisdom.

Ugartechea has made and continues to make fine guns. I had a conversation several years ago with Mr. Terry Weiland concerning a very nice pair of Ugartechea clones of the excellent Merkel 303 series gun that I own, one each in 20 and 12 gauges. He stated he had seen and handled only a few of that model, all in the personal collection of Mr. Ignacio Ugartechea himself, who used them to good advantage in the area's pigeon rings and for high driven birds. Ugartechea is not unlike other Spanish makers, in that they have offered both high end and low end guns. My personal experiences have been excellent with both ends of the spectrum. The low end guns certainly have their limitations as far as bells and whistles go, but are generally well respected. I agree with Mr. Schefelbein completely. The gentleman who initially posted stated plainly his gun had been abused before he got it. That does not make it "Basque BS." You might read Mr. Weiland's fine book "Spanish Best" for a better introduction to the fine guns from Spain.

Mr. Rise,
I said nothing to the rest of the board. I said nothing about my knowledge. I asked a simple question, in what I consider civil terms. From my recollection of the last decade or so, and some time previous to that (did you participate in the board of old? The Uggie comments were pretty good then, too) few other board members have had negative comments about the boxlock Uggies. Again, quite the contrary. A quick scan using the search function of this site seems to back up what I have said. Some of those post are mine, again, my gun has been simply flawless in use, but, even ignoring my enthusium, you will wade on for hours seeing pretty much nothing but good reports right here.

Your opinion would seem to fly directly against what as many as a hundred or so posters here have said they believe about the offerings from this Spanish maker.

Now then, you are of course entitled to an opinion. You can even have an opinion about me (thank you, by the way) although it is completely and totally unrelated to the question at hand, and therefore worthless to the discussion at hand. I am just curious as to why, in this case, you are of that opinion. No need to be a complete smart ass about it, I'm simply looking for a nugget or two of truth.

What have you got? I'm curious.


Best,
Ted

No need to sugar coat it, tell us what you really think.

This poor old girl has been "ridden hard and put up wet." Please do not start a conversation about Ugartechea quality based on this gun.

I will do a comlete teardown next and see what I find.

Thanks,
CHAZ

I see no humor in ridiculing another mans choice of weaponry. It seems that Hoof has a fun and interesting project that I wish was mine to tinker with. Keep us posted Hoof and pics of the internal mechanism please.

Not everyone can afford thousands, tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands on a side by side.

More birds have been killed with cheap guns than expensive ones.

Amen Chuck. I know that most of us old farm boys started out with a real cheap single shot that our Dads gave us. We really treasured it and most of us still have it in our cabinet.

"...Looks like someone let it corrode badly, and then covered it up with Gunkote!"

With that as a history, before you do any adjustments take it all apart. Clean and inspect everything.
Check for damaged or altered parts and surfaces. Sounds like it's been apart already in the past. Maybe some 'enhancements' have been performed,,maybe not. Once it's apart and clean you can tell.


Many times a good cleaning will show you better what needs to be done to repair a problem and sometimes clears the problem all together.

Chief:

I've read Weiland's book. Was not not impressed. By the prose or the subject matter. But I suppose someone had to write it.

Mr. Ted:

With all due respect, I challenge you to list five things the Spanish are internationally famous for. If shotguns is one of them, it is a sad state of affairs indeed.

I hereby withdraw from this learned thread. I've got a Stevens 311 to fix. At least the metal is hardened properly.

I am teaching myself to restore old doubles by buying old doubles and restoring them. As I am in the infancy of this hobby I buy cheap guns so I am not ruining good shotguns should I fail. I have done some LC Smith guns, a Fox, and a couple Stevens so far. When I get stuck I come here for help, take my lumps for working on something other than a Purdey, and usually get helpful information.

Thanks to all of you in the "helpful information" category.

I guess I will be learning box lock tear down and assembly on this project. My first LC Smith gun had a problem I had to figure out which required me to assemble the top lever assembly about four trillion times. As much as people complain about that job I could do it in my sleep now. Nothing like learning by doing.

Thanks,
CHAZ

Kensal- list 5 things the USA is internationally famous for. Is "shotguns" one of them?

There is nothing wrong with Ugartechea shotguns.The higher grades are wonderful guns! Bobby

Why didn't you just start your own thread about how sorry you think Spanish guns are, and respect the original poster enough to either answer his question in a helpful way or keep off his thread if you don't know the answer? You show a great lack of respect for Hoof by doing what you did.

SRH

1953 Stoeger Shooter's Bible--->Stevens Model 311 $59.95 Ugartechea over/under $225. Sorry no Uggie SxS listed for a good price comparison back then. I never held or shot a 311 to give an honest opinion of quality.

Mr. Rise,
Unfamiliar with the Corrida de Toros, or Fiesta Bravo? Spanish Toreros are considered the epitome of Tauromachia today, and have been for many centuries.
Manchego, produced in La Mancha, truly something everyone should have upon his bucket list.
Segovia, no one will ever compare. Ditto Vincenté Amigo.
José Andres could certainly prepare the game you manage to kill with your 311.
It would be tough to find something more beautiful in all the world than Francina Diaz Mestra.
And, Sir, sporting guns, wonderful guns that run the gamut from utilitarian to spectacular, regardless of your narrow viewpoint.
Truly, Sir, you need to get out more. It is, however, always refreshing to witness an individual that doesn't feel the need to display his intellect for everyone to see.


Best,
Ted

I've only owned one Ugartechea a very plain unengraved model 75EX sidelock 12ga with the most plain golden colored stock I've ever seen. It seemed to me to be built to a very high quality standard. I was on the verge of packing it up and shipping it to Mark Larson for a dose of his miracle art work and a refinish when I found a 1907 Lefever E grade ejector w/Krupp barrels at a local gun show and swapped the Uggie even for it, so my Uggie experience was first rate...Geo

Found it!! Grainy cell phone photo, but it tells the tale. Had to dig pretty deep (the action is empty) but I found the problem. Honestly, I think of myself as a hack, but who does this shit?? I don't have the correct spring, so I will just jam one that doesn't fit in halfway and call it a day. That bottom spring (the wrong one) actually looks like a top lever spring to me.

I hope putting in the correct spring fixes the problem, and that the incorrect spring didn't ruin something else.

Everything needed a good cleaning anyway, so it is good I pulled it apart. I live within driving distance of LCS so I will try them first for a spring.

Thanks,
CHAZ

Well Mr. Rise; looks like your reputation SUNK a bit today.

First off, I never put a man's gun down even if I have a negative opinion of it.

Second, as a owner of four Ugartecheas and not one has been to see a smith, I can see you know nothing of which you speak concerning Uggies.

Maybe you will have a better day tomorrow.

If they don't have the spring, I'm pretty sure Cole Haugh will. 812 654 3209

Chaz,

Congrats on figuring it out. I'd love to see some pics of your progress.

FWIW, here is my junker Uggie doing hard time:

Mr. Ted:

I shall, just once, break my promise to cleanse myself of this thread to reprise your most tasteless comment:

"...always refreshing to witness an individual that doesn't feel the need to display his intellect for everyone to see."

Now to reference your intellect: If you had some rudimentary grasp of the English language, you might have understood that I said "things" and NOT people.

In other words hard goods. Like Aston Martin automobiles. Krieghoff shotguns. Apple computers. You get the picture. I hope.

And Google up some wine crap. Spanish wine is as bad as their guns.

I will pull out my Ugartechea 20 gauge 1030 or my 28 gauge Holland model in any company and show them proudly. Bobby

In my opinion, the "most tasteless comment" did not originate with "Mr. Ted."

As to wines, both Spain and it's neighbor Portugal make quite a few very excellent wines. I guess wines and shotguns are built to different markets and to different tastes.

I am certain you can indeed Google up some "wine crap." It all begins with what you are searching for. You can also Google up some wonderful wine, just like wonderful guns. Looks like Mr. Rise is the one here that's searching for crap.

"I hate rudeness in a man", to quote Capt. Woodrow Call.

SRH

Mr. Rise,
It isn't quite that simple, actually, and I'm humored to see that my point clearly went right over your head.
Because gunmaking is an art, really, I simply used your thrown gauntlet as an excuse to illustrate the more artistic side of Spanish culture, and the things the Spanish are, indeed, internationally famous for. Segovia's body of musical work is, indeed, a "thing" to use your word. One would have a difficult time separating the artist from his Spanish identity, or his body of work, because they are so closely intertwined. Ditto, as it were, Vincenté Amigo and Flamenco dance. Let's face it, you can't duplicate Manchego cheese anywhere else, either. Or, whether you like it or not, Spanish gunmaking. Careful reading, and observation of my post would have revealed that every single one of them is involved in an artisan pursuit of things uniquely dependant on Spanish interpretation.
I assure you, they are as much "things" as any Aston ever could be.
Look, the Spanish gunmakers who did business here were typically forced into a price point that often was simply not realistic. So was Parker, and the reports that surfaced about soft parts in lower grade Parker guns (see Zutz, among others) was a symptom of the same disorder. Given freedom to price according to quality would have done wonderful things to the output of both manufacturers, but, the Spanish are always condemned first, and most virulently.
I have avoided single triggers and ejectors in Spanish guns, but, I did the same thing with English guns too, and for the same reason. The English don't get near the level of crap the Spanish do, but, the reliable English single trigger is just about as rare as the Spanish one.
Admit it. The truth will set you free.


Best,
Ted

Gee, guess I will have to sell my two Uggies. one is a recent purchace as the other one has given excellent service for years. Mr. Rise has opened my eyes to my shortcomeing in SxS. Won't metion the various other European SXSs I have for he probably would burst my bubble for enjoying them. Guess I'll just dig one of my old American made ones and use them.

i was so impressed with mr. rise"s comments i took my uggie out and gave it a good thrashing on the hood of my spanish sports car. i hope i did the right thing. but then again what do i know? im over the hill and gaining speed.

Personally, I hear Spanish culture is going bankrupt. Along with their world-famous shotguns.

thank you very muchly.

Quote: Personally, I hear Spanish culture is going bankrupt


Aren't we!!

I don't want to highjack this thread, but how about some pictures and comments about the gun in question. The floor plate is the worst, I will have to file it completely flat to get rid of the pits. I would rather have it with no engraving than with the pits though, so under the file it goes.

I emailed Lion Country Supply about a spring and they suggested I drop the gun off and their "off site gunsmith" would fix it. I emailed back that the gun is already tore down, and I just need a spring.

CHAZ

Chaz,

If you can't easily find a replacement, I recommend manufacturing one. This would be a perfect gun to practice making a spring yourself from scratch.

I look forward to watching your progress with this project.

Rob.

Nope and nope.

By the way, the notion that Spanish guns have "soft steel" dates back to the 50s and 60s and is no longer an issue. Any well-shot Spanish gun from that era that has survived has good steel and the new ones are uniformly excellent.

The AyA #2 is Britain's largest-selling SxS!

I personally own 5 Spanish SxSs (Including an AyA #2 20 ga) and they are all great guns. Some superb; others just very good.

Well, kinda, Gnomon.
The steel facility that supplies the gun makers in the Eibar region is a cooperative. The bits of one manufacturer gun's come from the same place as the gun that was made down the street. And, the bits are castings, not forgings.
Castings are less dense, and less expensive, than forgings, and while they CAN be made up into useful bits for double guns, it requires very talented steel workers to get it right. I suspect, but can not prove, that the gun makers with fewer problems on record for soft parts have brought the hardening in-house to address the problem.
The problems do continue to this day, but are not common place anymore, and the gunmakers have better dealer repair facilities than they once did. Lost in the furor is the fact that other gunmakers, not in Spain, have dealt with the same exact issues.
I also suspect that LCS won't be very interested in helping the original poster out, once they hear he has the gun apart. As suggested, he can get the raw materials for a spring from Brownell's, and take it from there.
I wish Hoof good luck in this repair.

Best,
Ted

Did you call Cole Haugh for the spring?

When I did some work for David Yale told me he used to do the repair (warranty?) work for one of the Spanish shotgun importers. I don't remember who, it was a while back.
He quite possibly could help with a part.
He's in Delta, Colorado now.


David Yale

S.M.T., Inc.
5600 Sawmill Mesa Rd.
Delta, CO 81416
970-874-1088

Ted, are you certain that such "bits" as sears and springs, screws, triggers, bridles are or ever were castings?

I used to be very "into" Spanish guns and rebuilt several for my own use and never encountered any evidence whatsoever for soft steel. Having never seen a soft-steeled Spanish gun (nor has any of the far more serious collectors I know) is why I suspect that if there indeed ever were any such guns they have all been used up and thrown away. Guns made in the past 20 years or so certainly have never been accused of suffering from soft steel.

I suspect that "soft Spanish steel" is just one of those gun legends that won't die gracefully.

The springs are not castings. Neither are the frames. The balance of the bits, are.
Properly done up, they are entirely suitable for the purpose at hand.

Best,
Ted

Respectfully, and with no offense intended, this is untrue; the 'bits' found in Spanish shotguns are not castings. The day one finds a cast part in a Spanish shotgun is the day to beware of pigs roosting in the tree tops :-)

Got that from Cole Haugh himself. He spent time there, and makes a point of rehardening some of the components inside an Uggie when ever they come in for repair.
I was told by Cole that he re-hardened the strikers and the hammers inside my gun, and he turned new strikers and supplied a tool for the discs. I did ask for the strikers and the tool, the rest was just a nice touch.

Best,
Ted

Ultimately, the whole cast vs. forged thing is just not a meaningful discussion. All of the small parts (hammers, sears, lock plates, triggers, safeties, and so on) are that wonder material of the late nineteenth century - low carbon steel. It makes no functional difference whether the steel that will be shaped to make those parts arrives as a casting or a forging; it will be filed into the shape desired and then either surface carbonized (as in the case of the hammers) or flame hardened (the triggers) to the desired hardness.

And that hardening, when not done properly, is whence we get the myth of 'soft steel'. All, and I do mean all, low carbon steel is soft and easy to work. That's why it is the preferred material. The problem is when the shaped and finished parts are not correctly heat treated (or heat treated at all).

To understand how this absence of heat treatment happens requires understanding Spanish artisanal shotgun making. It's not an industrial process, it's an artisanal process. Improper heat treatment isn't particular to any specific maker, to any identifiable period of time, or to any particular model of gun. Improper (or absent) heat treatment happens when an artisanal maker is faced with filling an industrial scale order. Artisanal processes just don't scale up well.

On vacation with my family (God help me) until next week. Then I will try Cole. As was expected I have not heard back from LCS. I would like to have the tool to pull the firing pins also.

That has not been my experience. I find them still missing the mark quite often. Just a few things to come in the last few years on new Spanish guns:

a loose hinge pin on a high grade 2 barrel set sidelock

screw that never had the slot fully cut, yet ended up engraved and hardened

soft firing pins

ejectors, single trigger and safety issues on a best grade boxlock built to order for an author who writes in the hunting magazines.

Over all I'm less than impressed, by it could just be the Anglophile coming out in me, but I think not.

The bits on all of my Spanish guns (Uggies and AyA's) were indeed castings. Trigger guard tang...top lever...safety button, etc. and even the pins and screws looked to be castings. I say that because I over torqued both a top lever pin (spindle) and breech pin on two different guns, and when they broke, the metal looked cast to me, could've been crytalized from "over" hardening, but I'm not so sure about that.
I don't think the bits being made out of castings makes much of a difference anyways, the English did the same thing for eons.
I've had pretty good luck with the Spaniards that I have owned, I did have to send two rather new AyA's back to NECG for a couple things (ejectors, cracked forend iron, broken breech pin and spindle pin, new/rehardened/reshaped strikers, and mainspring replacement)
One major issue I do have with Spanish guns are the brazed barrels. Pop a rib and your f&*$ed. Virtually impossible to relay a brazed rib and make it right. I know a person who used his AyA #1 down in South America, his gun unfortunately popped a top rib (the field repair was copper wire wrapped to hold the rib down and in place) and he ended up having to get a new set of barrels from AyA, at his own cost. Ugh. I understand thats a fairly uncommon failure, but it does happen.
While I do like some Spanish guns....I can still pick out the Spanish shotgun out of a crowded gun rack, they just kinda stick out.

Dustin

If my Uggie popped a rib, I'd pitch it in the trash! Seriously, the great majority of them seem to be about like the energiser bunny-they keep going, and going...

I think I paid $410, delivered, for my used Falcon copy. The lack of pedigree is apparent, but, it goes boom well enough when I pull the trigger, and I connect when I do my part. I switch off between the Uggie and an R10 Darne for traveling and shooting clays, I only want to bring one gun along these days.

Neither has let me down yet, I have a lot more time with the Darne in use, but, I don't shoot at Digweed's volume. I think I'll be Ok with the Uggie.

Let us know how it goes, Hoof.


Best,
Ted

I had a handful of trigger guards in the rough (now down to only one) that are from one of the Spanish SxS's. I think Uggies but I'm not sure. I use(d) them for custom projects.

Anyway, they are not castings. They are stamped from sheet stock, bent to shape over a form.
The spur is welded on as is the threaded stud.
The discoloration from the weld is still on the steel.
I'd guess an induction(?) type weld as the discoloration doesn't spread far from the point of weld. My knowledge of welding is severely limited so excuse if I use the wrong terms here but you get the idea.

The area on the sides where the spur meets the bow and the inside of the bow itself is coarse belt or drum polished.
But other than that it is still in it's stamped out steel finish.

As far as these guards are concerned, no castings involved and I wouldn't want to polish out one that was if I could avoid it.

Just wondering if the original poster made out OK with his project?

Best,
Ted

The Euskadi aren't Spanish so they'd have to take the heat or the kudos for the "Spanish" guns they make.

jack

Still haven't called about the part. Have had an offer from a local gunbuilder to help me make a spring if I can't find one.
I had to completely file all the engraving off the bottom plate of the action to get rid of the rust pits, but the rest of the action looks OK.

Thanks,
CHAZ

Chaz,
I once made a spring from a bicycle pants clip http://www.amazon.com/Inline%C2%AE-Metal-Pants-Clips-Pair/dp/B001B6EKHQ/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1342389571&sr=8-5&keywords=bicycle+pants+clips. What I did was heat the spring red hot to aneal it, then I cut, bent and shaped it how I wanted (for a sharp bend, I'd probably have heated and bent it while it was red-hot). When I was done shaping it, I reheated it and quenched it in water to reharden it. Twenty-seven years later the spring still works (it was a pistol part). Anyhow, it's an idea, if you can think outside the box a lot of this stuff isn't hard to do by yourself.
Steve

With a boxlock, I'd try to think like I was inside the box.

jack

Finally got a chance to put it back together and it works perfectly. Thanks to Cole Haugh for the spring. I was afraid all the crap that the previous owner tried to get it to cock reliably might have damaged some other parts. Just to give you an idea of what had been done, there was bondo in the forearm, apparently to try and get the cocking arms to "throw" farther? Now I just need to finish up the blueing and I can get it back together and try it out. I posted pictures on another thread, I tried browning this action since I can't color case harden (yet) and it looked like crap polished bright.
Thanks to all for the help.
CHAZ

Cole Haugh has a nice tool made up for removing the disc set strikers. It wasn't very expensive. He has new firing pins on hand, also. The firing pins that are original to my gun don't look as nice as Cole's, but, I left 'em in place to see how long they will run. I suspect they will be there a long time.
Good to be prepared, however.
I'm finding my stock dimensions have changed a bit over the last few years, seems like I need more cast, less LOP, and I'm more sensitive to pitch then I used to be. I'm still sorting that all out on this Uggie, and when I get it right, I think I'll put a nice leather recoil pad on the gun.
Good luck with your project, it seems like most of what was wrong was due to the wrong people owning/working on it, rather than any direct fault of the gunmaker.

Best,
Ted

Don't you have a Falcon, Ted. Those guns are highly underated.

Guilty, as charged. Don't tell Kensel or jOe this, but, it has been reliable since I got it. A big 12, proofed for 76mm ammunition, 28" tubes with IC and MOD chokes, nice open pistolé grip, and a slim, tight fitting little beavertail. I was told never to use the term "Purdey nose", since, it will confuse the hell out of OWD and he will ask a bunch of stupid questions about the term, but, it is fitted with one, a nice, hidden third fastener that they don't use on new models, A pity, really.
I have a slice from an old recoil pad glued/taped onto the recoil pad that is installed, fiddling with pitch adjustment, when that is sorted, I'll have a decent pad done up for it.
It goes boom every time. Looking at the photos of hoof's gun, very little changed on the Uggies for many years. I like that in a gun.

Best,
Ted