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Posted By: James M Lefever Damascus - 02/15/07 04:01 AM
http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=7858248
This Lefever double with damascus barrels is currently up for sale at the above site. Please click on the auction link then scroll down till you come to the picture showing the hole (delamination?) in the barrel.
I'd be interested in others comments regarding this?
Jim
Posted By: james-l Re: Lefever Damascus - 02/15/07 04:20 AM
Jim, check this out

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...p;rd=1&rd=1
Posted By: Jim Legg Re: Lefever Damascus - 02/15/07 04:38 AM
The Lefever at Auction Arms is not shootable, as is. That hole is not weldable either, IMO. He's also wrong about it being an antique. It was made in 1903-4. IMO, its only value would be for parts, not the barrel.
The barrel on E-bay has been cut, at 27", and fitting barrels on Lefevers is not usually an easy job. It's not worth much, either.
Posted By: 2-piper Re: Lefever Damascus - 02/15/07 04:41 AM
The first one is twist, not damascus & unless the laws have changed would require an FFL or C&R for interstate shipping. I would agree it's probably unsafe to shoot.
The second one is for a Lefever with in-frame ejectors.
Posted By: marklart Re: Lefever Damascus - 02/15/07 05:06 AM
Just curious Jim, why wouldn't it be weldable?
Posted By: PeteM Re: Lefever Damascus - 02/15/07 01:43 PM
That Lefever has what was called non-twisted brown damascus. It was also referred to as tor or tordu by the Belgian makers. This is bottom of the barrel stuff, the cheapest thing on the market. A set of barrels like this would sell for $.90 around 1900.

I do not believe I have seen a Lefever with barrels like those. It would be interesting to see the top rib. Uncle Dan was very proud of a matting machine he purchased that gave a unique pattern to the rib. Besides the crack, there appears to be pitting.

Pete
Posted By: eightbore Re: Lefever Damascus - 02/15/07 02:03 PM
I think the rib is probably similar or identical to just about every sideplate Lefever made after the very early 90s. For $100 bucks, this is a pretty useful parts gun. It may sell for much more.
Posted By: Jim Legg Re: Lefever Damascus - 02/15/07 02:33 PM
I said the hole is not weldable because it's so big. I'm not a barrel welder, that was just my opinion.
Posted By: 2-piper Re: Lefever Damascus - 02/15/07 05:17 PM
That pattern is virtually identical to every H grade Lefever I have except one (it's steel). Lefever in their catalogs lists it as "Best London Twist". In Bob Elliot's book he quotes 4 articles from "The Sporting Goods Gazette" of Feb, Mar & Sept 1898 and June 1899 announcing the introduction of the new "H" grade Lefever. In these articles the gun was referred to as having "Twist" bbls. In William Greener's book "The Gun 1834" he described bbls being laminated & wrapped into a tube as "Plain Twist" & those being laminated & then twisted in the bar prior to wraping as "Damascus Twist". Whether this is technically correct or not is of little importance at this point in time. This is the way the gunmakers themselves referred to their bbls & to do otherwise now simply causes confusion & no on knows what type of bbl is being referred to. You can look at guns from the US, England or the "Continent" & those having been twisted prior to wrapping are referred to as damascus, those not being twisted but simply wrapped are referred to as twist. Note the Parker PH was listed by Parker as having twist bbls (it was not twisted in the bar but simply wrapped around a mandrel). This "Plain Twist" is also what is often referred to as "Wire Twist" though it was not actually wound from wires but as only the thin edges of the laminates are visable it gives that appearence. None of these bbls not being twisted in the bar were referred to by the gunmaker's (at least not quality makers, I haven't examined every clunker ever made) as Damascus.
Posted By: RichardBrewster Re: Lefever Damascus - 02/15/07 07:36 PM
Assuming that twist H grade barrels are in decent condition, are they any less sound and shootable than Damascus in good condition? Do any of you shoot your H grade twist Lefevers? Rich
Posted By: eeb Re: Lefever Damascus - 02/15/07 07:42 PM
"Delaminated", that's a good one. Otherwise known as a hole. My G-grade has more of a true Damascus pattern and those barrels are quite sound.
Posted By: Chris Schotz Re: Lefever Damascus - 02/15/07 08:54 PM
Rich,
I have shot my twist barreled H's in the past using black powder. I didn't know enough about the proper smokeless powders at that time. I never had a problem. And the pheasants and rabbits didn't know either.
Chris
Posted By: 2-piper Re: Lefever Damascus - 02/15/07 09:19 PM
Yes I have shot my twist bbl'd Hs with appropriate loads. I have told this before but has been some time ago. A good number of years ago I purchased an H "Parts Gun". The left bbl had a crack in it 14" up from the breech. From the appearance of it I think it had been struck on a sharp cornered object which cracked the bbl along a seam of the twist. It had apparently been fired then & had lifted up a flap. The break was about ¼" long around the bbl & lifted up enough you could look inside the bore through it. Out of curosity as to what it would do, I put my dent plug under it & hammered the flap back down & it became very hard to see. I then proceded to strap it into a tire & remotely fired several 3¼de-1 1/8oz factory loads through it with no noticable affect. I then fire some 3 3/4de-1¼oz factory "Duck" loads again with no affect. I next fired some 1 3/8oz handloads using Unique powder in a low velocity load which probably did not stress it as much as the high velocity factory load. It has sat in the cabinet ever since in case I should "Ever" need a part from it & to this day in order to find that crack I have to examine it with a magnifying glass, & would not find it at all if I didn't know right where to look. In spite of it already being cracked, all those rounds of regular factory ammo, did not open it back up. Of course I don't put it to my shoulder & fire it, but I do the sound ones & with lower pressure loads.
Posted By: eightbore Re: Lefever Damascus - 02/15/07 10:51 PM
Miller, you are the man. My H Grade is the strongest looking set of barrels of any of my Lefevers. I have never shot smokeless in Damascus or Twist guns, but with all the attention being given to them in the Sherman Bell articles, I'm about to load some "summer loads" with 7/8 ounce or one ounce over light charges of a slow powder like Unique. Not much of that type of load in the books, but it should be about 5500 to 6500 psi. I don't think I own a composite barrel gun that would object to loads like that. I guess this is the year I start shooting all those neat guns.
Posted By: RichardBrewster Re: Lefever Damascus - 02/15/07 11:29 PM
Thanks for the feedback on shooting twist. I appreciate it. Rich
Posted By: KY Jon Re: Lefever Damascus - 02/15/07 11:50 PM
I shoot both twist and damascus with low pressure loads. If you have a sound set of barrels they have no way of knowing if you are shooting black or smokeless powder. I choose to shoot low pressure loads as much to save stress on 100 year old wood as 100 year old barrels. Have the barrels checked for all the normal concerns and if they pass shoot and enjoy them as they were meant to be shot.

This black vs smokeless is a stupid debate to me. Several different people have convinced me that the black powder pressure curve is not that much different from a smokeless powder curve. So it boils down to finding a low pressure load that keeps peak pressure to a very safe range. Most guns will work well in warm weather with sub 6,000psi loads. These are type loads that i enjoy shooting and feel reasonable confident will not make it difficult for me to count to ten, an improtant skill in the world I live in these days.
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