I'm looking seriously at a couple of Holland & Holland Royals as guns I can shoot as well as count as an investment.. I have also seen a couple Purdey's in my range that I'm also considering. neither are Damascus. Only going to buy one for now. I know all of the stuff that causes them to depreciate: e.g. condition, alterations, etc.. Any thoughts about WHEN (not if) we go over the FISCAL CLIFF which will be the better investment?? Maybe I should forget both and just keep buying Gold and continue shooting my Parker and Fox…

Oh, nearly forgot - advice on others that you beleive will appreciate will also be welcomed

Just curious- what gauges and grades are your AH Fox and Parker guns? If we end up going over the financial cliff, as you suggest, selling a fine London best at a fiscal gain over what you might have paid for it might be a bit chancy. Nothing against either the Purdey or Holland and Holland guns, but the few Churchill and Boss shotguns I have seen ( on dealer's tables at various SC venues) have impressed me a bit more. If I had the means to buy a used but well cared for London best side-by-side, with an eye to a possible resale of same later on, I would stay with a 12 gauge SLE with DT and either 28" or 30" barrels.

12 and 20 / Sterlingworth and VH

Neither are "good investments". As the owner of numerous Hollands and Purdeys over the years, unless you can "steal one" from some unknowing seller, they are expensive to buy and difficult to sell.

If your comment re the fiscal cliff is a SHTF scenario, wouldnt one be better off buying 100 pistols at $500./ea than buying one $50k shotgun?

With a Fox or a Parker you’re dealing with only the American market as most people overseas do not recognize our doubles as anything more than hardware store gun built for the masses. But, the American market is very good and the ease of transfer of guns in this country is a plus also. Concerning a Purdey or a Holland & Holland either one is recognized by the ultrawealthy in the world, but you're dealing with all the rules and regulations in foreign countries and you'll need help there.

My advise if you’re looking to invest in guns then the same rules apply, buy low and sell high, which means one thing, find an original Winchester Model 21 overseas as they sell for a fraction of the cost over there, then bring it back here and sell it.

Good Luck no matter what you decide to do.

The genius of homer rises once more. Doh...

1) The SHTF already hit the fan on Tuesday
2) Most humans have only two hands (possible exception with homer) thus two pistols are more than sufficient.
3) Pistols without ammo are simply poor bludgeons.

You need more radiation homer. Please return to Springfield.

I already own a pretty nice pistol collection.. I know those will be easy to sell... However, may end up needing them if the economy goes into the abyss... Always wanted a fine English gun, but don't want something that isn't going to appreciate in value.. A recognized gun dealer in the UK told me to stick with the big names.. Not that the other English guns are inferior in any way, they just won't sell like the big names i.e. Purdey, Boss and H&H..

Hows that Bile taste Bob. I hope you gag on it the next 4 years. Jackass

That's all the advice you need then. Find Dig and Toby, who post here, then tell them what you want.

Bilious Bob and Homer, let's focus on the question, and not just dig at one another. There is enough vitriol in the media, we should focus our common concern for doubleguns here.

The question is which is likely a better investment, the Holland & Holland Royal or the Purdey?

The answer is neither and it depends. It depends mostly on what you pay for the gun and how long you will hold it. In the short term most, if not all profit is made on the purchase price and not on the sale.

The comment that high end guns can be hard to move is true. While some of us are positioned with friends and acquaintances, who can pay a fair price, many are not and trying to sell a high end gun at a good price can be a long and painful process. I do not believe that high grade guns are a good investment vehicle because they are not very liquid.

That said if one is to bet on the future market in terms of which gun is likely to go up in value more than the other between the two I think it is a draw. If I were looking to invest in a high end used gun as an investment I would buy a McKay Brown 20.

That said I have not the money and I am not in your league

Neither one. The market topped out on most English stuff a few years ago and it hasn't come back. English stuff was soft at the last Julia's auction and there are tons of high-quality English guns on the market right now. Just go to Gunsinternational and search for Purdeys.

If I wanted a Purdey or a Holland, I would look for all original, pre-war guns, cased, lots of condition. That's what people will always want.

Find a dealer that has something on consignment and then hammer him on the price. The dealers wants to sell so he can at least make some money, and the consignor is probably tired of waiting for some cash. Make your money on the buy, not on any thoughts of appreciation.

That being said, real nice, all original American stuff seems to keep going up - at least in the small bores.

Other than that, just enjoy life and forget about all this fiscal cliff stuff. It's just the haters, media & political interests whipping you up so you'll pay attention and do what they want.


OWD

A new, bespoke Purdey, ideally in a smaller bore, is the only gun currently made that will retain its value. Other, new, London best guns will follow closely such as H & H, and Boss. Any other UK or new Italian or Spanish gun will lose a considerable amount of value after it is purchased with the possible exception of Fabbri

Regarding used guns as investments is rather unwise, even for the best London guns. If you buy one, buy it to shoot because it will have very limited liquidity and you will most likely lose some amount of money unless you hold it for a period of time. I would look for a "best" gun made before 1939 and in the most original condition you can find. Prices for these London guns seem to be better in the UK than in the US.

Said another way, you make your money when you buy, not when you sell. If you are looking at this as an investment (ie, getting more than purchase price back), you will be competing with a lot of dealers and sophisticated collectors looking to do the same thing. That means a lot of time in the market trying to find that good deal before they do. And if you do find that good deal, shooting your investment is risky because you will likely degrade the original condition of the gun and be putting it at risk of something more catastrophic (broken stock, dented barrels).

If you are looking for a shooter that has a good prospect of being resold for what you paid for it, that opens the field up more. You might want to peruse some of the recent UK and US auction results to see what has been fetching the best prices recently. Doing that however, assumes that the "market" will be the same 20-30 years from now. Who knows - maybe Churchill XXVs and Scottish boxlocks will be all the rage to the next generation of collectors. Who in 1980 was predicting the current market for vintage sxs?

This small bore Purdey hammered down for $60,000 ($69,000 all in to the buyer):

http://jamesdjulia.com/auctions/view_lot_info.asp?lot=2359-327

It probable cost a bit more than that new.

OWD

Well in what I have seen, Americans think more of the Purdey and the British think more of the Royals.
I happen to have one of each for sale.

Good advice Col. both in regard to investments and postings. Advice re investment is what I was trying to give- I keep plenty of handguns. Someday they could be the currency.

Speaking from a UK perspective and acknowledging that Toby and Dig know the market very much better than I do, this my take. You indicate that you want to shoot this gun, so go with the one that pleases you most. Your enjoyment will come from it's use, not it's resale value.

Having said that, should you decide to buy a best gun as an investment only, you surely must take into consideration your other investments, your portfolio in the round and your tax situation. In the UK guns are treated as a wasting asset, along with classic cars, fine time pieces and model railways (amongst others). Essentially the tax man recognizes that anything with a 'recognised lifespan of 50 years or less' is a wasting asset. Furthermore, when sold or inherited by one's heirs, they are free of our capital gains tax, usually paid on the sale of other asset classes, including stocks, bonds, property and so on.

I would therefore only consider buying best guns - Purdey (Woodward), H&H, Boss - as an investment if I was in the happy position of having to find a home for a great deal of money and where I needed to spread my risk into alternate asset classes. What a great situation to be in, I can dream now of my collection of wonderful shotguns, rifles, classic cars, boats and wine! Additionally, I think the key would be to invest in those guns that we know would retain their value. If the value goes up during our ownership, so much the better.

By the way, I have nothing to do with the whole investment community, other than using it when I have to!

Tim

I think this would be a good investment


http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/20066/lo...ta_currency=GBP

Neither. Find one of the two collector owners of majority of Peter Nelson guns there in America and see if you can buy one of Peter's guns. Peter's guns and Hartmann & Weiss are the best in the world of today's market.

Bv

Unless you are priescent enough to know when you are going to die, and could therefore sell your guns yourself, your wife/heirs will probably have to consign the stuff to a dealer/auctioneer, and that will cost you 20% or so. IMHO, it's hard to make money on commodities like guns , cars, or paintings for that reason

I don’t intend to be argumentative but I can’t comprehend much of this.

If the English stuff is soft, why would this be the wrong time to buy? He should wait for the market to come back before investing?

The advice to find a dealer has me baffled. I would make every attempt to buy from a private seller to avoid the consignment fee and taxes. I’m not in the H&H class of alternative investing so I don’t know…but I wonder. Seems an auction would be better than a dealer. Investments from a retail store?

I’m all for enjoying life but, the whole business world is fixated on the “fiscal cliff” so it matters –regardless of political persuasion. What do the haters, political interests, or the media care about his investment choices? I’m totally lost. Seems like equal chances of inflation and deflation so who knows…

If the SHTF it will be a buyers market for all high quality things ...... guns, cars, wine. paintings and real estate. If you want one ... buy it but don't count on selling in bad times for what you paid .... or selling it at all.

Al

Ha - I see your point(s). I did not explain myself very well.

Too much coffee.

OWD

I just put that dickhead on ignore, fucking troll
Apologize for the language, but I have had enough of him

My thinking is that I just traded a 1927 William Evans BLE 12 bore to a friend with a thriving gun business in Ontario for "trade"
In trade I have a mint Remington 28 ga skeet gun for my junior shooters, an STI 45 automatic, and a SU 16 for fun. Much more sellable
I would go for gold bars right now.
An important remark came up and this has been bothering me, hypothetically I have a cabinet full of guns, Parkers, Foxes, Hollands whatever. I will never die so I make no arrangement for any kind of disposal.
But I do die and leave my widow to deal with the disposal of my guns and reloading stuff,powder, shot, etc.
Not fair is it. Of course the creepy "friends" will, call round.....
So I have left my guns to my young friends, the boys whom I taught to shoot.
So the takehome message is, please do not leave your widow
to deal with your late husband's " great friends" from the Trap Club

Buy what you like and can sleep with meaning the price.Enjoy shooting them and that will be your intrest and dividend.It takes a lot of luck to make money unless you are a dealer and can buy directly from the seller. But there are deals out there you just have to keep fishing.
Monty

Simple answer is neither or both . Like all investments it will depend on the specific gun or item and the price you actually pay . Guns are not a quick turn round ,quick profit job. If you buy wisely and consider that you have invested the money for a period of 10 or 20 years then you will certainly get your money back at an equivalent rate at to days value ,plus a profit . You also get the pleasure of owning and using a great gun that provided it is looked after and not "modified" will be a sellable item .As far as English guns go then Boss, Holland and Purdey are the name at the top of the list but they also command the highest prices . You also have to consider trends ,30 years ago 26" guns were popular and 30" barrels were not ,now it is the opposite .Two inch guns went mad for a while as did hammer guns. You may consider that "second" named makers ,Powell , Churchill, Evans for example are as good long term as any other ,you may even be able to buy two guns for the same money ,doubling your chances and halving the risk . Buy good original guns and avoid anything outlandish or fancy as well as gun previously own by "celebrities" as these again can loose a lot when people have forgotten who that was .
In short you pay your money and take a risk ,as with every thing else .

In spite of what one member said, the advice given by Obsessed with Doubles is just about right on.

The advice about PV Nelson guns and H & M is interesting since these guns rarely come on the market. There are so few of them out in the world that trying to determine a market value is very difficult, hence this is questionable advice. From the few I have seen for sale, their prices are very similar to a newly made Royal model or extra finish Purdey.

As I said before, any gun, no matter how fine or rare, is not a good investment vehicle except for few exceptions, such as a gun of very significant and fully documented provenance.

shotguns are not good investments. good colts, winchesters and gold are.

I've put some money in shotguns recently because I don't know where else to put the $$. I realize guns are not a liquid asset, but investments that are (eg, the stock market) scares the heck out of me. Just look at how the DOW dropped 303 points the day after the election. Volatile for sure. At least with these guns, we can admire them, use them, and even though chances are we won't make a killing on these guns, they won't dissipate like a fart in the wind like some of my stocks in the market have done!! In terms of H and H vs Purdey.....I think most people put them on an equal scale. Both are great guns.....but not real liquid.

Cash, stocks, bonds, single family homes, commercial real estate, farms, ranches, art, all have been good investments or given severe whippings, time dependent. My best guess right now is farmland. But one of the Federal Reserve governors tried to make the case several months ago that there was a bubble developing in farmland in his home state (Indiana?).

Would much prefer to lose money on my gun collection sitting quietly in my closet than losing capital on farmland while dealing with CRP inspections, allotments, tenants, fencing, etc...

A generation has grown up without seeing a double. Buying guns to me is feeding a weakness. I'm past investing in anything except a couple Canadian banks among the top in the world with great dividends. There's no way I would consider guns although I've always been ahead when I sold one. My dear mother told me 60 years ago if I were to invest to invest in land. Particularly bold and wild land along any coast. Best payoff was $700,000 for a $5,500 investment. I borrowed to buy it, a ne'er-do-well reporter at the time.

I would stick with what you know and are comfortable buying. Last good second-hand London-made SLE sxs I examined was 30k and O/U 55K. How many people you know wear Franck Muller or write with gold Cartier pen.......? Even for fine samples the market is very limited.

I'll second Kings suggestion. They're not making dirt anymore,particularly waterfront dirt....

I don't think there's a straightforward answer to this.
I'd guess the best grade of any model would be the one to go for, but the most important issue would be mechanical condition. Good wall thickness,
tight action, good working locks , ejectors and, well, plenty of life left an all of the above. It could make or break a good deal.
The smallest of jobs on a high end gun could seriously eat into your profit margin very quickly.
It's not all bad news tho, as was already said. The gun may well hold it's value rather than depreciate. Certainly not a bad thing, especially if you've had years of fun shooting the thing in the meantime.
Dealers. A good dealer should have inspected the gun before you buy it and give some kind of warranty with it. Buying private is far more risky. I think the people in the know will spot any problems/defects and use them as a bargaining chip or just simply walk away.
If it was straightforward, we'd all be doing it.
I don't mean to sound pessimistic as there are gems out there, and what better pleasure than being able to take one out and use it.
I wish you good luck in your search.

As mentioned above unless one can find one in original shape at good price it isn't worth getting into. How many walk into fine jewelry store and ask for Patek Philippe?

I cant speak to the investment potential on H&H guns but here is a hypothetical case study on a Purdey.
In 1968 I received a quote from Purdey of 1100 pounds for a new 12G sidelock ejector,28 inch barrels,2 3/4 chambers.Rose and Scroll engraved.
According to current published British statistics,100 Pounds in 1968 equates to 1500; 2012 pounds! In other words by conversion of the the 1968 price using the 15 x multiplier, we have a "present value" of 16500 pounds!
Earlier this year a leading British auctioneer sold a similar Purdey of the same vintage described as;"Very little used," The hammer price was 16000 pounds. The vendor would have paid a 25% sellers Commission leaving him/her with 12000 pounds net!
Which in terms of "present value" was 4500 pounds less than than the initial investment
To me, pride of ownership and the enjoyment of 42 years of use far outways the financial considerations described above.

Who charges 25% sellers commission at auction. I seen figures of only a portion of that.

I believe I saw the 25% fee at the last Holt's auction. Apologies if my memory is faulty.

Christies and Bonhams charge 25%, Holts charge 22.5%, all figures plus VAT on commission at 20%.

It does not matter which you choose - H&H Royal or Purdey self-opener. You will pay less for a 'Royal' generally, all things being equal.

Don't buy either purely as investments.

Buy the one you like shooting. Shoot it, look after it and be privileged to go afield with a gun of real character and quality.

If you decide, in fifteen years to move it on, if looked after you will get your money back. You may even make a profit. Whatever, you have been using one of the best guns in the world for fifteen years 'rent free'! Not bad in my book.

I think we are confusing sellers fee and buyers fee above. If you add up all the commissions and taxes and insurance and advertising fees,etc., the seller is lucky to realize 60% of what the buyer finally pays. Probably closer to 50%. Doesn't work for me...

Julia's waives the seller's commission for items over a certain price ($15k?). I don't know if they are unusual in that regard.

Hollands and Purdeys are all over the place compared to Hartmann and Weiss guns. Buy one of them ,if you can find one for sale,to realize the best "investment." I also hear that H&W won't be doing anymore guns in the near future or may have already stopped making complete guns.

Hartmann and Weiss are still building new guns at moment.You can still talk to them about placing orders.

You can place it. But if you want a shotgun or double rifle, you probably won't get it.

The company already has many years worth of orders on the books for shotguns and DRs, and Mr H & Mr W are well along and getting close to retirement.

OWD

Don't personally know about Julia's, but seller fees are negotiable with most rooms if you have material they want badly enough. I've done this many times but never with guns, since I neither buy nor sell guns at auction. It's worth a try, at the least.

The only investment sure to cost more than guns in the long term is a second wife. Invest else where if you want to earn a return. Invest in guns or second wives if you want to see how hard it is to not loose your, uh... shirt.

Purdey self-opener made prior to WWI in very good original condition. O/U Boss or Woodward would be even better choice.

How do Dickson Round Actions compare for investment?

That was a design I chased after for a few years here in the states, and I gave up before I ever found a good one. Most of them, here, anyway, are pretty old and have seen either, a lot, or, hard use.
Most people in this country think they are looking at just another boxlock, might be even harder to sell than a sidelock.
Nice, well put together guns, but, I might buy an annuity if I was worried about the money.

Best,
Ted

I still think the best pure investment strategy for shotguns is to plan a trip overseas, making prior arrangements at the various auction houses, then buy every Winchester Model 21 you can afford. Bring them back here and sell them.

treblig1958, you are right, spend the next two years buying all model 21´s you can in Europe, come over,pick them up and send them back to the US and make about 100% on each gun ! Value for money I would try and buy a William Powell sidelock in good condition, pre 1937 or a Westley droplock deluxe in similar, best, Mike

With all due respect, that is a lot easier said than done. I never saw an American gun in Europe, save one Remington pump deer rifle in .270, sitting new in a dealers rack, where it had been for years. You don't just take possession of a firearm in most of Europe, and you don't just come home with it, after you have bought it. Shipping arrangments have to be made, customs duty, exise and state taxes have to be paid, and then you have to sell it. Model 21s, in 12 gauge, are not exactly flying off the shelves here in the US these days, to be fair, most 12s have gotten to be a hard sell.

I wouldn't try it. I wouldn't have tried it when I was in the business, either.

Best,
Ted

My experience is same as Ted's. I've seen one American gun, an over-priced Auto 5 in Paris, during trips to Europe almost every year.

Mike, you sound a little too enthusiastic about my feeble plan, just a little too enthusiastic!!!

RHD45, I bought a Hartman and Weiss a few months back but don´t consider it a better investment than a good Holland Royal or a Purdey, I think as someone stated they will be "knocking it on the head" fairly soon, best, Mike

In my experience, continental guns have relatively poor re-sale values by comparison with Englinsh guns. Also, any gun manufactured in the last 20 years will lose the original buyer a pile of cash when he sells it.

Note the several pairs of modern Purdeys in Bonham's next sale. A new cost of £150,000; these guns made in the late 1990s and early 2000s are expected to make the seller between £60,000 and £80,000, less seller's commission. They should actually hold up quite well for whoever buys them now.

The best bet is to buy guns made pre-war as they have done all their depreciation.

Supply has to play a factor in this, does it not? As OWD pointed out, new H&Ws effectively can no longer be ordered, and Peter Nelson, David McKay Brown, Peter Hofer will all (sadly) one day cease making guns. That has to play a factor in their "investment" value as opposed to Purdey and H&H which will ostensibly continue to produce guns (even if at a relatively small volume).

Dig - your depreciation rate for those Purdeys is interesting. While they certainly take a hit on resale, a "typical" modern sxs (eg AyA No. 2, Merkel 1620 or for that matter even an RBL) doesn't depreciate 50-60%.

Only six pages of pointless blather?

Come on guys, you can do better than this!

A lot of very good information posted here on this thread but you not only have to read it but also comprehend it as well.

I'm talking quality kit. Ordinary cooking utensils like Beretta 687s hold up well but the more expensive stuff does not.