Are you spelling the names correctly? I can find nothing here for Fabbrizioli,
http://www.earmi.it/armi/database/brand_f.htm or here
http://www.beretta.it/index.aspx?m=53&did=893Figli Rimini is literally Sons of Rimini. Rimini is both a town and province in Italy.
Pete
The gun reminds me of the Merkel's that were sold in the white, and finished by various companies.
But I defer to the pro's here.
That gun is so German, it probably says "Achtung!" when you open it.
Beautiful. A sideplated boxlocco?
I don't think there's anything German about that gun at all. The lines are much more slim and trim, and the engraving is much finer than the commonly seen German engraving of that era. That's not to say German engraving can't be cut more finely, it's just not commonly seen on the majority of their guns. I think it's Italian all the way. The bolster under the watertable is slightly reminiscent of Merkels, nothing else is however. And it's a sidelock, not a sideplated boxlock.
Chief I sure believe you on the sidelock ID, but I figured boxlock 'cause the hinge seemed very close to the action, at least in comparison to a Beretta SO3.
Chiefshotgun wrote:
I don't think there's anything German about that gun at all. The lines are much more slim and trim, and the engraving is much finer than the commonly seen German engraving of that era.
I'm in firm agreement, too slim in all places. Rose and bouquet engraving is all Italian, stock as well.
You guys seem to be backing up CZ's hypothosis......without even realizing it? It seems it has some traits of a German gun, but is finished "just like an Italian". What would you expect of an action in the white being finished elswhere from it's origin?
Just my hunch....I actually never knew they did that, even if this is not one.
Best,
Mark
As the owner of this shotgun I am 100% sure that the making of the gun was in Italy. This gun was passed on to me from my employer and friend of thirty years as a gift for dedicated service to him during those years. He was a imigrant Italian and avid sportsman who returned to the old country on a regular basis and in the early years always returned with a new firearm.
Regarding the question of whether the gun is a true sidelock or a boxlock with sideplates the following may clear up question. The smooth round type button shown in the picture on the left side goes indent or exdent depending on whether mechanism is cocked or not cocked.
Its definitely Italian. My first thought was a Beretta SO3 as Yeti mentions.
The engraving is very similar to this one done by Giuseppe Bregoli in 1960:
Has chromed Böhler Steel barrels. Sons of M. Fabbrizioli (if well spelled) or M. Fabbrizioli & Sons from Rimini.
Could not find the name either.
Very nice gun.
JC(AL)
Looks like a real sidelock to me, the Bohler steel barrels are a sign of a better gun. It is not a big name so the price will be held down. Now if it said Fabbri???????????
bill
BTW, several "best" guns I saw in "The Italian Gun" (by Steve Smith and Laurie Morrow) have the same type of cocking indicators.
They were all sidelocks by Bertuzzi, Cassartelli and Rizzini.
JC(AL)
Ahh, now with an SO3 in comparison I see it's the rounded sculpted boss(?) that's different in design, not the hinge pin. Very cool.
Look at that gun from the top, guys. I agree that the engraving is not Germanic, but the bolting sure as heck is. That's Kersten. Did any of the Beretta SO series use Kersten bolting? I can't recall, but the one photo I have of an SO does not show extensions on either side of the top barrel.
It would not be unheard of for a small maker to use barrels from Germany. There were a few gun makers who only produced a few guns a year.
If you could provide pictures of the proof marks and the markings on the barrels, etc, it may help a bit. This is not a cheap gun. However, an unknown maker can drive down the price. If there are trademarks on the barrel flats or receiver, it may tie the gun to a better known name.
Pete
The only "proof marks" on barrel are shown in above picture. Also included a picture of the lockup mechanism if it would help in identification. Would really like to determine value of this shotgun in the marketplace. If this site helps in the sale of this gun I pledge a generous donation to the current drive.
The Beretta SO3EL in the above picture also has Böhler steel barrels,
Antinit in this case. This doesn't mean the barrels came from
Germany, just the steel. It also has a cross bolt like all SOs
but does not have top barrel extensions in the Kersten manner,
like Cman's. Very sturdy looking hinge pin btw.
Cman, do you have a clearer picture of the name of the maker?
I could try posting on some Italian gun forum to ask.
JC(AL)
Has anyone ever seen a Kersten bolting system on a gun that wasn't from Germany or that had German origins?
And I've never seen a gun with the hinge mounted on the bbls like it is on this one.
Interesting.
OWD
You wonder why they would monoblock barrels on a nice gun like that.
I have a pair (12 bore and 20 bore) of sidelock O/U guns by Ugartechea that have Kersten bolting. To be sure, they are clones of the Merkel 303, so the design at least is German, but not the origin. Made in Spain, of course. That may not be the answer you were looking for, OWD.
Just a note Bohler is Austrian almost German but not quite. I equate their use as the same as Krupt or Whitworth from guns made at the turn of the century. i.e. only on the best
bill
As Gil mentions, the method of joining the barrels into the "monoblock" and then rolling or otherwise engraving a pattern around the join line is very much an Italian thing. I don't remember seeing that on any German gun. I also wish they would not use that method, I personally think fine guns should have an invisible seam.
OWD,not me. The Austrian (germanic as they come) gun I have has
Kersten locks that include underlugs as compared to
Cman's that only has the crossbolt (like the Beretta SO's).
First time I see that hinge system too.
JC(AL)
P.S.: Cman, "Fabbrizioli Mario" appears here towards the bottom
of the list of Italian gunmakers but no additional information:
http://www.earmi.it/armi/database/armieri.htmJC
After Chief's post I have to correct myself: the o/u
AYA's have Kersten locks too. Also "Spanish Merkels".
JC(AL)
JayCee,
Nice catch. I didn't know about that page on the site. So "Fabbrizioli Mario" was registered as a gunsmith with a trademark at the "Test bench of Gardone Val Trompia (Brescia) from 1945 to 1980".
Interesting, I don't see any other proof marks on the gun. I would not have thought that was possible, but there is always something to learn...
Pete
I can't make out the markings on the barrel, forward of the chambers. Wonder if those might tell us something more about the gun?
LBrown . . . The markings you are asking about are:
Boehier Stahl Cromate
"Chromed Boehler Steel"
A curious mix of German and Italian.
JC(AL)
P.S.: Pete what it actually says is that the list includes the
Italian gunmakers that registered their marque between the
years 1945 and 1980 and the list is app. in order of
registration. Obviously a lot were active before these dates.
(No wonder Beretta is the first) JC
Italy 1955, less than 10 yrs post WWll
Where could you buy the forgings and barrels if you were a small shop?
It's a beautiful shotgun. But I think any of the small shops had help during that era. It would be nice to see within the lockplates.
There are thousands of hours in that gun, no matter where the raw stuff came from. It's a real gem.
Cman,no proof marks are visible in your photos, only what is
surely the marque (initials of the maker between the 444 and 1955,
an M with an F and an R.
There should be Italian proof marks like the ones you can see
here under Marchi dell'Italia:
http://www.earmi.it/armi/database/marchi7.htmJC(AL)
Well, the markings or lack of them are very unusual. I do believe that the 1955 is the date of manufacture. I have seen a Beretta was marked like that. However, on most Italian guns there should be a date code:
For another on-line resource for proof marks:
https://www.bluebookinc.com/Info/PDF/Firearm/Proofmarks.pdfPete
Gil and Jay Cee, $25,000 and even more expensive Berettas have monobloc barrels (not my preference, but a fact of life) and there are many Kersten bolted guns that have no under-locking lugs as well as many that do have them. Now that someone has found the maker on a list of Italian makers, the gun becomes less of a mystery gun. The bass ackwards trunnion system is just one maker's attempt to be different. Unless the receptacle for the hinge assembly is replaceable, fixing one of these things once it gets a little loose would be a machinist's nightmare. The Beretta, Remington, Krieghoff trunnion system is so much more gunsmith friendly.
Agree with Pete that 1955 is likely the date of manufacture. I too have seen Italian guns with the year in Arabic numerals rather than Roman numerals. And I've also seen combinations of the two, like XX7. Leave it to the Italians!
Right on, Eightbore.
How the heck do you put this gun back on the face? Do you weld up the trunnion? I bet it would be a major job to get things to fit right again.
OWD
Suspect reworking the Kersten style bolting system would be the 'fix' IF it ever shot loose. The unique hinge leads me to believe it was a prototype. It may never have been proofed since it wasn't made for commercial sale. Perhaps the inventor/makers personal gun.
Interesting and unique. I'd like to hear the rest of the story if it could ever be discovered...
Actually, properly hardened trunnion inserts in Berettas probably will never need to be replaced. My 680 series trunnions are still very tight after tens of thousands of rounds and a replacement of the locking pin assembly. However, it is uncomfortable to have a wearing part in a shotgun locking mechanism that is not easily replaced. Not only are the trunnions in the gun being discussed a bit of a nightmare in appearance, Kersten locking pins are another nightmare for the average (or above average) gunsmith. This gun, beautiful as it is, could be quite a project once it gets a bit on the loose side.
I'd bet that the forgings and barrels came from Ferlach. I'd also suggest, but not bet, that they might have been a gun in the white when they crossed. The prototype theory seems plausable, too. This could have been an experiment or a masterpiece (one of the sons turning master) that went right and was judged worth of the serious decoration. Note that the engraving in 1955 would not have been that big a deal as engravers then were not considered, or paid, as the artisans they now are.
When off face maybe you could reduce the size of the trunnions,
thread them on the outside and fabricate a new trunnion with
internal thread to fit over. Or even epoxy on a new trunnion
over the reduced one, doing away with the thread making complication.
Just an idea from a total layman.
Surely easier said than done.
JC(AL)
Cementman, A most interesting gun. I like the engraving and it certain features certainly speak of quality. Was your friend/employer a left handed shooter? It appears from the photos that the gun is cast on. As to value as requested in your original post it would depend on what interest it generates. This board has a For Sale section if you are really interested in selling it. I know that if it were in my area I would give it a serious look. Have you weighed it? Do you know the dimensions of lop ( Length of Pull ), DAC ( Drop @ Comb ), DAH ( Drop @ Heel )? Certainly it is a different and possibly unique.
Gun is on "For Sale" section of this site looking for offers starting at $3,500.00. Stock deminsions are drop at comb 1 3/4", drop at heel 2 1/2" with a 14 1/'4" length of pull. Just a guess at weight at around 6 lbs.. Gun was custom made for a man of medium stature, 5'-11" and 180 lbs. I am of the same stature with medium size hands and gun comes up like a dream.
Sort of a comparable. Looked at a game configuration (12 bore, I think) Beretta S3 of '50's vintage. Very similar engraving style. Three large would have taken it home, IMO. Interesting trade-off between unique and known name. Do post the results of your sale here, please!!
I will come in late to this discussion and offer some thoughts.
When researching my Franchi a couple of years ago, I learned a bit about Italian guns and makers from 1930 to 1960. It seems that quite a few masters were working in small shops and made bespoke (custom) guns. These outstanding (for the most part) guns were not made for export and therefore often did not have all the marks that we have come to expect. Many did not have the makers name as it was the gun that advertised the quality and not the name. This confuses us today as we put much stock in brand identification.
FWIW---I think the gun is Italian. The I do not think that it came to the builder in the white. The engraving style started(in Italy) around 1930 and was brought there by Belgian masters immigrating from Liege. This style is common in the finest of these Italian guns of that time and until the 50's.
We do not see them here very often. The men, in Italy, that own them have not sold them and not too many were built anyway.
The gun would cause much attention in Italy and would bring far more money in Europe than here unless a collector of Italian guns sees it for sale.
Best,
John
To keep this interesting Italian gun present I would like to add another example of a non-germanic gun with Kersten locks. It is Gastinne-Renette single barreled rifle:
Very germanic looking though.
JC(AL)
ALL COMENTS IS BAD, THE MAN IS ITALIAN THE NAME IS MARIO FABBRIZZIOLI Y FIGLI RIMINI (SON AND THE RIMINI IS THE CITY) IN ITALY I TALK WHITH THE FAMILY, THE COMPANY IN ITALY AND MARIO FABBRIZIOLI, MAKEHAND THE FINE SHOTGUNS ANDMUSICAL INSTRUMENTS OBOE AND TRAVERSA FLAUTAS MADE HAND, I HAVE ONE SHOTGUNS 20 GAUGE NUMBER 462 IN 1956 MY GRAND FATHER SEND MAKED ONE FOR CHILEAN HUNTING PARTRIDGE, THE FINE GUNS IS MORE BEST TO IVO FABBRI AND THE PRICE IS US$85.000 AT US 120.000.- AMERICAN DOLLARS FOR THE SHOTGUNS ., YOUR NEED MORE INFORMATIONS AND PHOTOS SENDE ME A MAIL TO MARCELLOAVATTE@HOTMAIL.COM THE BARRELS IS BOHLER ANTINIC FROM GERMANY ONLY STEEL (IRON), MY SHOTGUN MADE FOR MY GRAND FATHER IN 1955 AND THE WORK IS FINISH IN NOVEMBER TO 1956 AND ARRIVE TO CHILE IN JANUARY 1957 IN THIS TIME THE PRICE IS LIKE TO NEW CADILLAC MY FATHER TELL THE GUN IS VERY VERY SPENCER IN THIS YEAR. SORRY MY ENGLISH MY ITALIAN IS BETTER., I NEED ONE SHOTGUN FOR MY SON VITTORIO 28 GAUGE OR 410 THANKS YOU
very nice shotgun from best craftsmen in world the italians. i like the CROSS arrangement st. hubertus will smile kindly and the game bag will be full at end of the day.
Hi Chile 69
I purchased the above shotgun and it really is a beautiful shotgun. I would love to know more about the maker. I have many Italian friends that can translate any information you may have.
Thanks, Jeff G.
Jeff, my thought is the gun was engraved by a Belgian engraver, Possibly Schoffeniels.
Hi Daryl,
It certainly resembles your gun, mine shows no marks from Belgium or signatures. I thought it looked alot like JC's Bregoli engraved SO. The little I have learned about the engraving style said that it originated in Belgium.
Thanks
Jeff G.
Jeff, your gun is beautiful. I do see several Belgian makers with engraving similar , especially from the 50s and before. Yours is not signed, so your guess could be correct. Whoever did your engraving had seen some of the Belgian guns of that period.
