I've got the fever for an old Winchester pump shotgun but don't know a lot about them. Is there anything in particular I need to watch out for with either model? I'm kind of leaning towards the 97 but I don't know it's weak points. I'm looking for a shooter and not a collector piece. I basically have quit buying new guns and only look for classic models. Any thoughts?

Plenty of both of'em out there and with the depressed prices today, they're a good buy at $450 or $500 for a good 12ga gun. The hammer is the obvious difference; some like it some don't.

My preference'd be the Model 12 in a 16 or 20 ga. There's also a lot of the Browning copies around; a 10ga makes a good duck gun! Take your time and buy yourself a nice "prescious to prescious" present for Christmas...Geo

I have never seen a 10 ga M12 or M 97. I have owned both models, and think that the M12 is much the better choice for a using gun. The hammer on a 97 is not very prominent, and cold or wet hands can cause problems in cocking it. It is also not at all smooth operating, and is subject to wear more than the M12. The M97 bolt has to be slammed to the rear for ejection because of the design of the ejector, but in my case that was a help, as I shot a good bit of skeet with a 97, and since then have never had a problem with short stroking a pump gun. Also, there is a hazard to the 97 that I found the hard way. The rear of the bolt has two sharp corners that become sharper with wear, and if you get your hand too far forward on the wrist, the corners can gouge or cut your hand when pumping the gun. The 97 does seem a bit trimmer in the action than a M12 though.
The M12 was built in only 2 frame sizes, 12 and 20. The 20, 16 an 28 were all built on the 20 ga frame, while the 12 ga and 12 ga 3" gun were built on the larger frame. A lot of the 20 and 16 ga guns were made with short chambers before WWII. The 20 ga guns can usually be converted for the longer shells by just opening the chambers, but the 16s will require opening the ejection port also.

The Model 12 16- and 20-gauges got their chambers lengthened to 2 3/4 inch in 1926. For some reason the 16-gauge Model 97s didn't get their chambers lengthened until 1931.

I shot NSSA Skeet with a set of Model 12/42s for a number of years. I had this fantesy about the Model 1897/97 in that two of my favorite research subjects, Ansley H. Fox and Harold B. Money (De Shootinest Gent'man) shucked Model 1897s for the big W back in the early 20th Century. Also, there were some great pictures of Plinky Topperwein on the walls of the Spokane Gun Club from her visit there in 1911, when she ran a 99 with her Model 1897. Guess she had an off day!! At any rate, I finally got a high condition, very late, serial number over a million, Model 97. My first experience with the 97 was that it had to be pumped very precisely. Couldn't get away with any sloppiness that one can with a Model 12 or Remington Model 31. Then, at The Nimrod Classic at Polson, Montana, a friend was shooting his in the pumpgun event, and got his thumb a bit out of position and the breechbolt gashed his thumb to the bone. That was enough for me. The next gun I saw that I could trade the 97 on, it was gone. Having owned one does give me even greater respect for Ansley's 25 straight with his Model 1897 at the 1901 Grand American Handicap at live birds!!

I never owned or shot a Model 12. I do have a Model 97 12 gage in mint condition that I never shoot. My 37 Ithaca 16 gage beats the 97 hands down for smoothness when cycling the action.

I have a few Model 1912s and 12s in every gauge but 28 and one 16 Ga. 1897 - they are grand old guns, as are Remington 17s, 31s, Savage 21s & 28s, older Stevens, Ithacas etc.

They are all classics that won't be made again. My favorites are the Remington 17s & 31s.

Thanks for the replies. I'm not a cowboy action shooter or anything like that I just like to hunt and shoot clays with old guns. Something about using a gun that has several lifetimes of use and several more left in it just appeals to me. I'm only interested in 12 gauge. Do I need to watch for short chambers? It's my understanding that all M12's were 2 3/4 but that the early 97's could be almost anything.

You don't need to worry about short chambers in 12 Gauge 1912s & 1897s.

There is nothing like hunting and shooting with old guns.

J.A.R. Elliott used a Greener in the 1895 GAH, then shot for Winchester with an 1893 Repeater using "Leader" shells loaded with "EC" powder, then Hazard "Blue Ribbon" when he defeated Fred Gilbert to take back the Kansas City "Star" Cup April, 1898. He then retained the cup first beating R. O. Heikes by the score of 94 to 93/100, then C. W. Budd, J.E. Riley, and Fred Gilbert in Kansas City. In March 1899, he had the High Average at the Sportsmen's Association Championship Tournament held on the roof of the Madison Square Garden breaking 1223 out of 1300 targets and held the following trophies in 1899: DuPont Trophy, St. Louis Republic Cup, & Cast Iron Medal (all at Live Birds) and the "E.C." Target Championship Cup & "Republic" Inanimate Target Cup. He finished 1900 holding the Cast Iron Medal, Sportsmen's Review Cup, and the St. Louis Republic Cup then in January 1901 won back the DuPont Trophy. He later used a Model 97 Pigeon Grade.



He used his 97' in the 1901 Anglo-American match, then went went on to Belgium and joined R.A. Welch competing in a series of pigeon matches, winning 1000 francs in one match. The purse in Namur was $40,000!!
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1901/VOL_37_NO_22/SL3722022.pdf

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=185YOyQl7GIB9OYLs9Hr3tnMLHqs4rjEdR4j_E9l4HLw

I was loaned a model '97 in a duck blind on Sweck lake, near Coldspring, MN when I was about 15. The freezing rain/snow mix was coming in sideways to the point I couldn't keep my glasses free enough to shoot anyway, and I should have stuck with my single shot 12. I shot at and missed a stupid duck of some sort, and when I went to pump the old Winchester, I gashed myself right down to the bone on my left thumb. I likely would have bled to death, save the fact my hands were already frostbitten and that slowed the bleeding. I'll have the scar to my dying day.
I was told I was the only one dumb enough to ever do that, but, my experience isn't unique, it would seem.
I'm a big fan of hammerless guns these days.

Best,
Ted

I like the 97 a lot. I don't have any problem with them cutting my hand but many people do. Everyone grips the guns a little differently.
I usually lighten the hammer spring some on a 97 to make the action function smoother. It takes some of the hammer camming action off off the bottom of the bolt when it's retracted so it operates easier. Makes for less wear and if there is some bolt wear at that point, it won't be as much of an issue in closing the action with less upward hammer push while it's sliding forward.

The ejector/spring is fragile. Just a small bent flat spring L shaped piece that fits into the left side of the frame and held w/a screw. The tip can be broken off and you won't know it unless you shoot the gun. Just a quick look over , you won't see it. The larger part is still attached to the outside of the frame. Replacements (aftermarket) are available now thanks to Cowboy Shooting. The last couple I got seemed a bit brittle yet so I drew them back a little more and they seem to work well.

Worn cartridge stops can be a problem. Shells won't stay in the magazine,,or usually the problem is an extra jumps out of the mag as you are feeding one into the chamber. Sometimes it's just 100yrs of grime behind the stop & spring. But they do just plainly wear out at the small edge that catches the shell rim.

They crack the stocks at the wrist a lot. The fit up is like a M12. A through bolt with the stock fitting over a tapered extension from the back of the recv'r that the stock bolt threads into.
Things get loose, oil soaked and that tapered extension gets to act like a wedge and the wood splits.

I can't recall what the chamber length was on these (12ga) but it's not a bad idea to measure it anyway.
Some have been lengthened over the years by well intending people to make sure they are 2 3/4".
The problem is that they just take the bbl assembly and stick it in a vise and run the reamer in to the 2 3/4" mark.
What they have just done is chambered the gun to 3".
They forgot or didn't realize that there is a chamber extension ring in the receiver (as there also is in the M12) that is part of the chamber length. It's about 1/4" in length and has to be taken in to account when measurments are taken or any cutting is done.

TD is the same as the M12. Check it to see if it's still at the beginning of the take up or where it may have been adjusted to. If it's at the end of it's usable adjustment,,you have to decide if it's still tight and will stay that way for your purposes.
They used to sell different TD thread rings (1 thru 4 I think) for all the pumps including the 42 to be able to tighten them up again when the original factory fitted one ran out of adjustment.
None of these problems with a solid frame gun of course.

Check the 1/2 cock to make sure it's secure. It's your only manual Safety.
There is a firing pin safety inside the bolt. It blocks the firing pin when the bolt is unlocked and then disengages when the bolt is locked. Supposed to keep the gun from firing w/o the bolt being locked. It can fail though. Either through the parts them selves or just dirt and rust.

With the bbl assembly off the frame, slide the pump handle back and take a close look at the slide rod. Make sure it hasn't been twisted and restraightened,,welded on,,and especially the end hasn't been brazed or welded on to rebuild it 'just so it works'.

Thanks, I'll try to give that stuff a look when I find one.

Model 12's (and 1912's) My "Vade mecum" of repeating shotguns. I grew up with M12's- all the men in my family (except my maternal grandfather, who shot a Pigeon grade Model 1897 12 gauge for ducks) shot them. I have nine, all made before 1950- and all of them are using guns, best pointing, natural action repeater ever designed. My 1948 Pigeon Grade Trap gun (30" older two-pin milled rib) has had over 200,000 registered ATA targets under its "belt" plus God only knows how many practice birds- still works as sweet as the day it left the factory in New Haven- never had a broken or defective part. The rest are field guns, mainly 12's and 20's with one 28 gauge, and two of the 12 gauges are the 3" Magnum Heavy Duck versions that came out in about 1935.

I like the M97, as I respect John Browning's genius, but it is a flawed design when compared to the Model 12-

Here are some "myths" various gun hustlers/huckers/con-men/ psuedo dealers will try to run by you to get you to buy their over priced Model 12's (1) I have a Model 1912- predecessor to the Model 12- Bull &^%$- same damn gun, WRA had beaucoup "running changes" and in 1919 they changed the roll stamp from Model 1912 to Model 12- why? Ask Edwin Puglesy or Thomas Crossley Johnson- I don't know why, and they are both dead.
This is the scarce "nickel steel" Model 12- again BS- from 1912 until about 1931- except for the short-lived Stainless steel Fubar WRA had from about 1926 to 1929- Nickel steel was their trade-mark for their nickel ordnance steel- in 1933 they went to AISI 4140- guess what- nickel steel, different markings. (3) This is a genuine Model 12 Trap gun-- Trap shooting is a game, as is skeet- But WRA confused a lot of folks when they had a Trap, Tournament and then Pigeon grade offering in trap shooting configuration: 1921 to about 1936-then 1950 era, when they went to a Simmons designed rib- I have a friend who has a (segue here to a side-by-side Winchester) Model 21 20 gauge Trap grade skeet gun--a 26" barreled 20 bore with open chokes is no more a gun for 16 yard rise at ATA Trap targets than a lemon is a fire hydrant--

All 12 gauge Model 1912's and Model 12's had std 2 & 3/4" chambering from the get-go- aprox 1914--the 16 and 20 gauges had shorter chambers until about 1930-when they were standardized at 2 &3/4" as well- exception being of course, the heavy duck gun, which has 3" chambers-- Rare Model 12's-- IMO-- Any 28" gauge with 30" barrel, ribbed or plain- Any std. 12 gauge with a 32" barrel, agauin plain or ribbed, and perhaps rarest of all the 12 gauges- a 12 with 32" solid rib barrel that was returned to New Haven and converted to a 3" chambered Model 12 (NOT a true Heavy Duck) and if you have the verifying paperwork, you have a "rara avis" indeed.

I see lots of Model 12 12 gauge "shooters' in my travels, let me know when you decide what you want and I'll try to help you find it- I love older Model 12's like Lindsay Lohan loves being a general RPA to the free world--

IMO the 16ga Model 12 has great lines in 28in and points as well as a non-double can.Just bought a 1947 model for $350.How can you go wrong?

I'm a big fan of the Model 12, especially in 16 gauge, as it comes in with lightest receiver of them all and is a real bargain today. I'd look for a gun made in the mid/late '50s, as the stocks have a bit less drop and you don't have to worry about the short chamber issue (and all that goes with it).

Mine weighs 6 1/2# w/ 28" plain barrel, is one of the last guns I'd part with for any price.

Stay away from the 28 gauge Model 12, other than that, No!!!

More than a few gunshop owners around here believe and believe very very strongly that the Model 12 is the be all and end all of all shotguns.
An old timer in Rockwood Pa had a beautiful Model 12 in a glass case with a sign on it that said, "NOT FOR SALE AT ANY PRICE SO DON"T ASK"

Sidekick,

Try and get a Model 12 WS-1, with ventilated rib if you can find one in good shape. It didn't achieve legendary status in Skeet Shooting without good reason. It has very good balance and dynamics.
A Browning Model 12 in 20 gauge will also work very well as a bird gun.

It's funny that you mention a 50's model with a vent rib because what I find myself being drawn to in my internet searches is a 50's model with a 28" modified vent rib barrel.

I'm not really buying the gun just for me. Two years ago my brother in law was killed in a car accident. He left my sister and his two young boys on the farm. They're still a little young to be packing a gun but they dearly love to follow their only uncle and since I'm about the only one to get them steered in the right direction and show them the stuff that young boys need to know I thought it would be nice if I could find a few classic guns that could be theirs when the time comes. Their Dad left a few behind but not all are really suitable. I'm a reloader so I can make a 12 gauge behave until they're big enough to handle it. I already have a few that belonged to my Grandpa but I need a couple more. I think it's a pretty good excuse to keep filling my gun safe lol!

I love my model 12 & 97's. I only own examples in 16 gauge, not sure why that is either, just how it worked out. My 97 was made in 1914, it's heavy but it's very dynamic and shoots like a dream. It's my 16 year olds favorite gun to hunt with, it's my goto dove gun. I like older model 12's with short barrels, no rib and corn cobb forends. I believe these are lighter in weight, handle much better and are better made than the later guns. I've had examples from the 20's, 30's, 40's and 50's on my bench torn down to the bits and can say that the guns made in the 20's and 30's are in my opinion the best of the lot. I hunted with a early 1930's model 12 16 gauge, 26" solid rib with mod choke for most of the sharp tail season and rarely missed, it was just a killer. It weighs 6lbs 10 oz and is just an incredible hunting gun.
By the way, I've never busted my knuckles working the 97'. Never even came close.

I am with LeFusil on my favorite configuration of Model 12s !

Something unique about the '97s is how short and compact the Receiver is.

I'm not as big a fan of the M1897 as I am the Model 12- But- i believe one reason for your observation of the somewhat shorter length of receiver on the M1897 as opposed to the Model 12- the external hammer and bolt design of the M97. And FYI- as soon as I get clearance from Dave W.- as this is NOT a doubnlegun item, I may be able to post a 1937 era M12 field grade plain barrel complete barrel and forearm assembly in the For Sale section-

I have both a Model 97 and a couple of Model 12s in 16 gauge, plus the Browning copy of the Model 12 in 28 gauge. None have ever bobbled or hiccuped, although one of the 16s is so worn that I cannot take it apart anymore without having to monkey with the innards to get it back together. Local gunsmith told me $100 to fix it, but it has no finish to speak of and a Weaver choke system (the system that made the Cutts look attractive), so I just carry it in a full length case. The 28 was opened to IC by a prior owner for quail hunting and is a skeet grinding machine. My brother hunts deer in SE PA with a Model 97 he put a set of iron sights on. Someone had cut the barrel to 23 inches. It will put five cheap Foster style slugs into a teacup at 75 yards.

They are both good guns.