A suggestion for those of you that get Shotgun News. Vin Suprynowicz's column in the curent issue(Jan 10,2013) and not just about "gun" control makes for an excellent read. It essentially summarizes what most of us Conservatives have been saying about what's now fundamentally wrong in the United States today.
I have put this informations in Misfires but I think this column is of enough general interest to warrant placing a note here.
Here is a link to his site but the Jan 10 column hasn't been posted yet. However there's other information of general interest.
http://www.vinsuprynowicz.com/
Jim

I'll make one comment here to keep this thread alive. If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem.
Nuff said:
Jim

Gross tragedies such as the Newtown, Connecticut rampage are an unfortunate consequence of our Jeffersonian freedom to bear arms, just as the publication of hate literature and pornography are the unfortunate consequences of our Jeffersonian freedom of speech. With tears in my eyes, I am willing to pay this bitter price because I am convinced that a society in which only the police have guns will inevitably become a police state. The wide spread anti-gun rhetoric neglects to address this critical conscientious objection to gun control.

J.K.B. von Falkenhorst

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A6m0NAq6RDk

The above link will take you to a YouTube video that splices a "celebrity" anti-gun PSA with actual clips of the celebrities using guns and glorifying violence in their movies.....and getting rich doing it. Where's the movement to address the glorification of violence, murder, mysogeny and mayhem in movies( and video games)? The hypocrisy is sickening.

I'm no fervent "NRA gun Nut" (although I am a member), don't own a "black gun" and carry (when I do actually carry) a Kahr K9 with a capacity of 7+1. I believe in the 2nd Amendment. Residing here in Connecticut gives me an up close and personal view of the current anti-gun situation we are facing. Every gun shop I know locally is completely sold out of Ar-15 style weapons and HC mags. One shop has a waiting list 150 deep for AR's with many already paid in full. And .223, .45 and 9mm ammo--good luck! This has been largely ignored by the local media, they're bent is squarely in the "ban the guns" camp.

The problem is societal and systemic, passing laws only law abiding citizens will adhere to is not the answer. They're talking about a 50% ammo tax, as if a cretin determined to kill as many people as possible, and die doing it, is going to care whether he pays $30 or $20 per box of ammo?! Silly! That tax will hurt a law abiding sportsman who shoots 100-200 or more of rounds of clays per month in a big way though.

Until we force our "leaders" to address the root issues of violence in our society, and demand from them logical programs that address our safety we will be revisiting these awful tragedies again and again. Besides the victims and their families ( who I am heartbroken for) the only others who'll pay the price for the demented and homocidal actions of the sick few are law abiding, peaceful minded Americans.

This is what the Libtards voted for, sadly some on this board.....

The "Sick Lot" in power now, will never address the real problem, just add a few bandaids here and there and destroy the 2nd amendment where they can...........

Now that you boys have drawn some attention to yourselves and this has turned into childish name calling, can we move it to the sandbox section of the board?

OWD

Please get this off of here...Its pollution!

sand box??? gee Greg any chance you even think they might come for your guns one day too ???

Jim, your wasting your time here,they don't don't care or want to know about "someone else" losing their rights to own guns

Nope. But I'm not a bullying, paranoid nut job, either....

Move it.

OWD

I thought this was a intellectual and adult forum not a reactionary group of people who can only spew what they hear Rush Limbaugh, Rachel Maddow and Glen Beck types spread. Please think for yourselves.

It is very easy to make personal attacks but what does that get you except encouraging more ignorance. When we lose the ability to converse civilly we end up with a more divided society with increased extremism.

Rush has had the No. 1 radio talk show for 24 years running because he says what needs to be said, and encourages independent thought. Obvious you've never listened to him for one minute and just repeat the left's lies about him.

Rachel Maddow is recognized as an idiot by everybody who is not a far left loon and her ratings reflect it.

Glenn Beck's success speaks for itself.
JR

Are you just talking about Second Amendment issues, or are you also talking about all of the many recent off topic threads such as the current "Small Munsterlander" thread or the "Model 12 Winchester" thread?

In case you hadn't noticed, we are under a Jihad style attack by politicians and a media hell bent on taking away a major piece of our Bill of Rights. And you call putting that on the front page of Doubleunshop "pollution"? Do you really think if we ignore the threat, it will just go away?

It's especially amusing that Jim merely posted a link to an article here with no vitriol or personal opinion, and OWD jumps in and calls him a "bullying, paranoid nut job". Does anyone see the hypocrisy there? OWD shrilly condemns the very thing he is guilty of.

Once again, this all goes back to the very simple solution of... if you don't like this stuff... just don't read it. Don't click on it. Don't go there. When you go to a restaurant, do you order things you hate and then complain, or do you stick to the menu items you like? No one has forced you to click on this. If you are offended, it is because you intentionally stuck your nose in it.

I don't suppose this thread will be here long. I'm sure a couple guys have already whined and bitched to Dave. It makes you wonder what their real motives are since there is nothing being said here that isn't being hotly debated in workplaces, living rooms, taverns, radio talk shows, and editorial pages all over the nation. So why are some pretending to be so offended when someone has the audacity to put a Second Amendment issue on the front page of a Shotgun Forum?

I wish Dave would ask himself that question before he pulls the plug on this thread too. We have several anti-gunners on this Forum. One, nca225, finally came out of the closet in the past couple weeks and has now openly asked "what is the point of the keep and bear arms part" of the 2nd Amendment. Several others are still pretending to be gun guys. Still more would rather do nothing and let a small fraction of gun owners carry the entire load of maintaining our rights. Worse yet, they don't want any reminders that they enjoy the harvest, but never contribute to the toil.

What happens with this thread or any other thread is up to Dave. I note with humor none of the usual suspects got their panties in knots over a Model 12 Winchester thread here for example. Their goal is the same as the antis on other gun boards. Whine when information is posted that's informative and supports our RTKABAs.
The mere fact that they're whining tells the rest of us these types of informational posts are effective.
Oh and BTW: I bought a Winchester Model 12 at a garage sale two weeks ago for $200. It's got that kiss of death Lyman choke soldered on the end of the shortened barrel but otherwise it's functional. There I guess this now validates this thread so you can quit whining!
Jim

Here they come....

No one is saying you can't spew that stuff, just take it to the right part of the board.


OWD

You can bark and growl in this forum until Dave's in his grave and hell freezes over and you can paint me with the tarry brush of your choice but By God there are limits. I'm not paying for the preservation of freedom in the currency of little kids.

jack

If you're not interested, just don't look at it.

If you're not interested, just don't look at it.

If you're not interested, just don't look at it.

If you're not interested, just don't look at it.

By the way, was posting the same message multiple times "the currency of little kids? Sure looked that way to me!

Edit: It looks like Mr. jack rabbit deleted his multiple posts. Three down... one to go!

Instead, how about you show some respect for Dave and for all the members here by following the rules?

Is that too much to ask?

OWD

Greg,

"THE BEST CURE FOR SEA SICKNESS, IS TO SIT UNDER A TREE".......


You break the rules every time you post your stupid "auction alert" that nobody reads....trying to hustle your own agenda are you.....?........Looks like the pot calling the kettle black to me........if you don't like it don't read it, just like we don't read your drivel......

The Second Amendment is the MOST IMPORTANT SUBJECT this board could possibly discuss.......

Since more innocents are murdered by Traditional Sporting Long Guns, than are by High Capacity Magazine fed Rifles, I suggest the compromisers of Freedom among us set the example and turn in their wood and steel relics, or insert them in their Alimentary Canals which ever suits their fancy.



I also suggest that the Enemies of our Enumerated Rights voluntarily limit themselves to ten posts on this forum, as a show of support of their desire to limit what is said here, or Boycott this forum in protest, while having Carnal Relations with themselves.

It's an unsavory situation, but one in which we can no longer shy away from in the USA. I agree with keeping it civil, and name calling should be avoided. However, the topic needs discussion, the threats to firearm ownership are very real. Among proposals currently under debate in state houses, and federally, that will affect everyone on this board are restrictions on Internet/mail order ammo purchases (no one in CT carries RST's, Polywads...etc--it's all mail order for those shells), limits on the number of firearm purchases for individuals, registering all firearms and publishing lists of concealed carry permit holders......among many others.

No movements have begun to address the glorification of gun violence in movies, television, music and video games. The entertainment industries hypocrisy in this area is undeniable and sickening. The YouTube link I posted illustrates this clearly.

These forums are the exact place where individuals with common interests should discuss and defend those interests.

Amazing how you could not resist taking a shot at me when you know nothing about me. Kind of my point. I used to subscribe to Rush's newsletter and did listen to him 20 years ago. I even remember him as a baseball announcer for the KC Royals. Then he just started spewing hate during the Clinton administration (I think just for ratings). I also had a difficult time with his hypocrisy of being a drug addict but somehow still having the attitude that he was a worthwhile person while every other drug addict was scum of the earth. He does have tremendous ratings but so did Jerry Springer. I agree with you about Rachel Maddow as she is no different from Rush. Both are radicals and do not bother with reason or facts. Your right Glen Beck does speak for himself and it is scary. Even Fox news couldn't stand him.

PS is there a way to move this entire forum? I agree this is not the appropriate forum so this will be my last post if it cannot be moved.

Hey Greg,
A) It not YOUR forum,if you don't like it don't read it!Your "bullying" to "move it" is yet another example of liberal hypocrisy.
B) BTW,your too will be affected by the bill,besides loss off buying ammo through the mail,they will suspend all private gun sales-that mean the auction houses you enjoy buying from will have to get a FFL or stop selling guns.

eng-pointer you also injected name calling into this thread; and names of controversial public figures, and then you whine about it ?

As the Jews of Europe had their Judenrats, Freedom Lovers and Gun Owners also have theirs.

eng-pointer, why are you so offended that this is here rather than in Misfires? You are threatening that this will be your last post if it's not moved. If it does get moved, it's still here... just a click away. What's the difference? Why would you wish to hide a timely and important topic in a less viewed section? Did you also read gspspinone's last post where he told us how impending legislation could affect the availability of low pressure ammo for vintage doubles? Impending legislation would also require FFL transfer of all guns at gun shows and even from a father to a son. If you died, would you want your son to have to hire a lawyer to provide another Death Certificate copy to petition a probate court to initiate an FFL transfer of your guns. What do you suppose that would cost per gun? This subject very much does indeed affect our precious doubles. It's a whole lot more "ON Topic" than a lot of other threads. Tell us why a brand new member here really wishes to supress what's going on.

Nobody forced you to click on it a second time. Nobody forced you to keep reading something you didn't like the first time. What are you really trying to do? Didn't you take the first shot when you accused some here of letting Rush, Glenn, or Rachael do their thinking for them?

More "Do as I say, Not as I do". Some things never change.

Your exploitation of those children's deaths to further the anti gun agenda instead of doing something to help prevent it from happening to other children is sickening. You should be ashamed !

Amen to that, as Dave K and Keith pointed out, we have some on this BBS..........!......

And just think, if they hadn't clicked on this thread and posted here, this thread would already be near the bottom of the page and on it's way into the archives.

I still haven't heard an explanation for why this bothers them so much. Are they refusing to watch TV or listen to radio or cancelling their newpaper subscriptions or just hiding out at home with their head under a pillow???...because this debate is being aired everywhere. I have no real interest in Model 12 pumps. I own one pump, an 870 Remington that has no plug and is loaded to the gills and sits behind the bedroom door. But it's not very interesting to me, so I just don't click on the topic. Easy. Simple. Maybe I should go there and whine that it belongs in Misfires. Maybe I should act like these guys. But that would mean pushing cute little Small Munsterlander puppies into the lonely pages of Misfires.

Glad ol' eng-pointer made his last post. Now we can git on to some REAL adult stuff! Or better yet... Model 12 Winchesters!

Boy am I glad you guys came out of the misfires forum to a warm welcome on the general discussion board.

Are your you seriously comparing yourself to Nazi persecuted Jews? Please describe as many similarities you feel you may have in common to the persecution of Jews in Nazi Europe. This should very interesting.

It didn't start off with Death Camps, they began by Demonizing them, and passing increasingly restrictive laws against them.

And it started with proganda articles similar to Donald Kaul's.

"Declare the NRA a terrorist organization and make membership illegal. Hey! We did it to the Communist Party, and the NRA has led to the deaths of more of us than American Commies ever did. (I would also raze the organization’s headquarters, clear the rubble and salt the earth, but that’s optional.) Make ownership of unlicensed assault rifles a felony. If some people refused to give up their guns, that “prying the guns from their cold, dead hands” thing works for me."

"I would tie Mitch McConnell and John Boehner, our esteemed Republican leaders, to the back of a Chevy pickup truck and drag them around a parking lot until they saw the light on gun control,"

Anyone that does not like Model 12 Winchester's is an Anti-America Commie SOB

Why certainly we can get back to "vintage" Winchester Model 12s as this one was made in 1928. No only does this example I posted above have that bulbous fitting on the end of the barrel** the owner was also very thoughtful. So thoughtful in fact that he "engraved" his name and location right into the left side of the receiver. There for all to see is "Dr. W R Jacobs and below Potlatch,Idaho". Looks like he did this work with a rusty nail perhaps will sitting in a duck blind on a slow day.
Jim
** Which upon further review is a POWer PAC and not a Lyman variable choke as originally thought. It looks to be more suitable for a submachine gun. Can anyone elighten us as to it's purpose?

postoak, do you really think our resident anti-gunner nca225, will see any similarities here? Or that publishing names and addresses of gun owners and CCW permit holders has other eerie similarities? Wasn't the slaughter of over 6 million Jews aided by the fact that they were disarmed?

Do we really want to get in any discussion of history with an uneducated anti-gunner who maintains that the Militia has been replaced by the National Guard?

For those of you who do not usually venture into Misfires, I urge you to read our Constitutional scholar's comments in the Militia thread.

keith, I'd like you to first enlighten us all on the similarities you share with the Jews in Nazi Europe. Please go ahead. Also, although I do not agree with what the newspaper did in NY, was that paper a privately owned newspaper or state owned?

BTW, good idea to invite members to go read the misfires board. Everybody should be aware of what you guys write.

It bothers them because, being stupid, they voted for this arrogant community organizer with promises and lies of NO TAMPERING with the Second Amendment........The community organizer said those exact words on the National Presidential Debate.......

Now he says new gun laws will be on the front burner for his second term....geeeee, who would have thought.......

So now with egg on their face having been lied to by this guy.........The guy who never led anything more than an ACORN Demonstration, they made him President of the United States.....TWICE.....!.!.!......I think they feel they've been had and they have.....but wait....they haven't seen their new pay check deductions yet, after all the promises of "no new taxes" - and "we will only tax the rich people".......

Remember these are the same stupid people who posted on here "nothing effecting the 2nd amendment will change".....we're overreacting they said, oh really............

When dealing with the government, one must remember one thing, give an inch and they will take a mile.

For those who chose to think they will not come for "my guns" on here they might take a look at the protesters/politicians who are going after the Show in Stamford;
The East Coast Fine Arms Show (which has many of the vendors that are used by those here)

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/stamford_gun_expo_goes_on_in_shadow_ke6NryTv2YvYF7CPsy54YP

Defiant gun dealers ignored protesters and put their wares on sale at a controvesial arms expo held today an hour's drive from the site of the Newton, Conn. elementary school massacre.

The eighth annual East Coast Fine Arms Show, held at the Stamford Plaza Hotel in Stamford, features about 250 tables and was held despite the objections of Stamford Mayor Michael Pavia, who called it “untimely and insensitive.”



Go ahead keep your heads in the sand-vote for more gun grabbers/"progressive's" and say its not "my guns" !!

I know a &^%$# Troll when I see one Keith, I just couldn't resist.

Well, let's see, I do like noodle kuchel and lahtkes, but I don't like gefilte fish or matzo ball soup. My Jewish girlfriend persecutes me all the time, but she'd do that whether I had guns or not. She also thinks Obama is a slimeball. She doesn't like the fact that Obama is trying to undermine the Constitution, and she sure doesn't like the fact that he allowed the Iranians to double the number of uranium enrichment centrifuges and dig their nuclear program deeper underground in 2012. She despises the fact that his kids have armed security at school but he ridicules that solution for the nation's kids.

I never said I share any similarities with Jews in Nazi Europe, other than some of the foods I've eaten at Passover Seders or Hannukah dinners. I've seen an entire Torah from Czechoslovakia at a local Temple that had a hole every place the Hebrew word for God appeared, because the Rabbis thought it might be desecrated by the Nazi's. Do you think that's why the Democrats took God's name out of the platform at their 2012 Convention? I did say the Jews were disarmed which certainly made it easier for the Nazi's to round them up with minimal resistance, and many Liberal Democrat politicians are calling for restrictions up to and including confiscation. They are public figures who are being cheered on and spurred on by privately owned newspapers. That was something that happened in pre-war Nazi Germany. Hitler didn't do it all by himself. I can't say that they would want to put gunowners in any labor camps, but were not going to take any chances when were dealing with liars either. He who does not learn from history is doomed to repeat it. I know a lot of Jews who never met their grandparents because they were killed by a politician who despised them and took away their freedom.

You'll do anything to defend the politicians who want to take away our rights. This is part of the Bill of Rights, and one of our Civil Rights. The founders put it there as our best defense against an oppressive Government. It's not about duck hunting or skeet shooting. You keep coming back to a Gun Enthusiasts Forum and expect to convince gunowners to back restrictive gun control legislation. You have compared our guns to the illegal drugs you use and said they should be heavily taxed to curtail their use. You told us the Militia has been replaced but you still haven't shown us the law or Supreme Court ruling that did that. You have said there is no longer any "point in the keep and bear arms part" of the 2nd Amendment. You think we should have our guns locked in a safe where they would be useless if an intruder broke in and attacked our family. You say we should be held criminally liable if a thief broke in and stole our guns and misused them. You say that the Heller ruling was comprised of judicial activism and thusly deny that we have an individual right to keep and bear arms.

There is clearly something wrong with you. I'm glad you came here to show others that everyone on Doublegunshop isn't a friend to gun owners. I still think you are mentally ill and that any guns you or your Mom have should be confiscated before you become the next headline. I hope your Mom gets you the help you need before you hurt her.

Come on postoak, you started to stretch a connection between what a private American citizen wrote and the mass Nazi propaganda dehumanizing the Jews, can't you finish it? Aren't there any other ways you share in the plight of Nazi persecuted Jews? Don't shy away because you think I'm a troll, I don't live under a bridge, I'm harmless.

No dimwit I said as European Jews had their Judenrats, we lovers of freedom and gunowners have ours.

One also must not forget that some 6-6½ million Jews who were murdered by the Nazi regime accounted for about ½ of all those murdered. The other half were made up of "Germans", Poles, Czechs, Austrians, Etc. Anyone who dared to oppose what was happening. A very high percentage of pre-war German Doubles, Drillings, Sporting Mausers etc residing in this country today are bring-backs from WWII. The GIs didn't steal them from their owners, the Nazi Regime did.
The only part the massacre in Conn plays in this is it gains the Anti-gunners a toe hold. In a picture posted on the internet showing Joe Biden upon Obama's announcement he would have "Plans" in place within a month, That Broad smile on Biden's face "FAILED" miserably to show his concern for the Children.
Read the histories of the world, Genocide has killed more people than any thing else ever will & the first step is more often than to disarm the public.

postoak, nca225 always tries to put words in our mouths, but he'll be in complete denial even when you reproduce words that he said here in toto. Sometimes he'll make conflicting statements within the same paragraph like a schizophrenic might. That's just one of the reasons I think he is mentally ill. And no one who wants to gut the Constitution in order to enact laws that have been shown to be ineffective should be considered harmless.

Postoak, I've beeen with you all the way till this post. I do "NOT" like anything that resembles a Pump Gun, be it Winney, Remmmy, Mossy, Ithicy, Marly, Stevy or whatevery. In fact I find the "Perfect Repeater" to be a total contradiction of terms.
I do not consider myself Anti-American nor a Commie & I don't appreciate you throwing off on my Mother.

Miller, you nailed it right here. And you would have to be very ignorant or mentally ill to be in denial of that. Thank you.

Once again keith you are letting your imagination get the best of you. Thought you learned your lesson the last time you misrepresented what I wrote. But I guess you've found a new audience to try it out on. You can be corrected here as well as on the misfires board. To start, please post exactly what I had wrote about families being required to keep their firearms in a locked safe. I think others may find it significantly different from what you have imagined.

BTW below are your own words, care to explain your conspiracy theory to the general public?

"I'd much rather see my kid's school turned into an armed camp with a good chance of stopping a sick, evil killer, than have it remain a Gun Free Zone... which is another term for failed liberal policy that places our children in a defenseless and vulnerable position in order to exploit the next tragedy and advance the long term agenda of eliminating the Second Amendment.

It's time to start calling a spade a spade here. The gun grabbers want nothing more than to see another Columbine or Sandy Hook. They just don't want it in their kids' private school."- keith

Miller it was perhaps a poor attempt at humor, directed at Bob.
I hold you in the highest regards Sir, please accept my apologies.

"Read the histories of the world, Genocide has killed more people than any thing else ever will & the first step is more often than to disarm the public'

Exactly what they,the leftist/progressive gun grabbers-on here,the complicit media and politicians in power do not want us to remember.

Well said Miller

I've had a look at what Feinstein is purportedly proposing and expected to submit to the Senate on Jan 22. Unless you are soley a muzzloader shooter there are provisions in her proposal that could affect virtually every member of this board to some degree.
Make no mistake about it this proposal goes far beyond the expired Clinton era "Assault" weapons ban.
I'm not positive but an item that may be added would be the prohibiting of all firearms over 50 caliber regardless of whether they are rifled* or smoothbore so that means we'd be left with 410s if this were to pass and it included all types of shotguns.
I don't know yet if this is fact or conjecture.
Another point that's currently being overlooked is that many anti gunners are also anti hunters and will push for any and all legislation that makes it more difficult and expensive to hunt.
*Even if this only applied to "rifled barrel" shotguns it would be a real hardship for those deer hunters in shotgun only States.
Jim

Jim,
if this bill is passed-it might well get a passed with dirty Harry Reids "nuclear option" senate and who knows with the house;
NO more for sale forum (unless you go through a FFL for BOTH ends).
NO more antique auction houses selling guns,guns all go through full 01 dealers.
NO more ordering your fav ammo for your shotgun and have it shipped to your door.

If your just fine selling out other gun owners because they are not guns "you" own-like nca225,OWD,and Rabbit to name just a few,well you deserve it. If not get your head out of the sand and see what others here have been trying to tell you for years,they want them ALL.

Feinstein is a concealed handgun permit holder....another hypocrite!

Ok, nca225, I'll start with my own words which you have generously reproduced here. What part do you not understand? I'd like to see armed security guards in schools. Obama's kids enjoy the security of 11 armed guards, but he says it won't work with other schools. Obama himself enjoys 24 hr. a day Secret Service protection, but says Wayne Lapierre is wrong to suggest armed protection for our kids in school. So do many other Liberal Democrats like Mayor Bloomberg and George Soros. Dianne Feinstein has a concealed carry permit, and security guards in the Senate, and a security detail when she travels, but she too would deny schools the same solution that works for her, and at banks, airports, in airplane cockpits, at military and nuclear installations, and dozens of other places. The Liberals would rather deny kids that kind of protection because it would not dovetail with the plan to infringe upon the Bill of Rights.

Part two: I absolutely do believe that these same Liberal Gun grabbers exploit these mass shootings at schools and elsewhere, and they can't wait for the next one so they can immediatly call for more restrictions on law abiding gunowners. Previous anti-gun legislation did NOTHING to stop these shootings, and they don't care to consider any link between them and Anti-depressants, violent movies and videos, cultural changes including the breakdown of the family through Liberal Great Society policies or the removal from schools of any vestige of religion or morality. I do not fear my own tongue here. You and your Liberal ilk wish to restrict the Second Amendment in ways that will do nothing to prevent some future crazy from getting a gun or guns and killing a lot of people. And you all can't wait to trumpet the latest shooting spree in order to advance your agenda. Obama and Biden and Congressional Democrats aren't too very concerned about the hundreds of Mexicans who have been killed by guns that their administration illegally walked into the hands of drug cartels. It's obvious what the game here is. The game is hypocrisy and exploiting grief and raw emotions to advance the anti-gun agenda. Unfortunately, they're playing the game with the lives of innocents.

I know you think these are words I'd like to run away from... nothing could be further from the truth. I'm glad to have had the opportunity to repeat and explain them.

Now, where did you say that guns should be locked in safes and that if some crazy got access and misused them, the owner of the guns should be held accountable? Let's start with your post # 307338 which said that a family with a mentally ill member would have to keep their guns in a safe... but did not yet get to the level of requiring prosecution if the mentally ill person did get the guns.
Then let's go to your post #307419 in the same thread where you did support prosecution of someone who had their locked up guns stolen and used in a crime.
There was a subsequent post in another thread where you went even further, saying that anyone who had a gun that was not locked up should be held criminally liable for the actions of the person who stole the gun, but I haven't found it yet. Don't you recall how I questioned the effectiveness of that and asked if Adam Lanza couldn't have held a knife to his Mother's neck to force her to open it... or just kill her and take all the time he needed to break in? Or just steal a neighbors' guns instead? I did run across a couple more places where you touted laws requiring guns to be locked up, and then places where you say the ONLY thing you want is a ban on hi-cap magazines... up to and including a requirement to turn in existing magazines with prosecution for non-compliance. Frankly, I'm getting bored with going back and referencing things you said only a week or two earlier but can't remember. Maybe you took my advice to delete it before you accused me of making up stuff about you again. I've proven you wrong enough times that anyone who reads Misfires can tell us who has credibility in these matters. It sure ain't you.

I'm not sure why I wasted my time anyway because you are frequently in complete denial about things you said. You went nuts the other night when I reproduced a quote you made verbatim, and you had made the same quote with an added comma and capitalized letters changing the meaning somewhat. But I hadn't even referenced that quote in any form in my original question to you. That's what was so bizarre about the whole exchange. Remember when you said to me "No F-U your not done you illiterate f#@k. You just quoted exactly what I had said, but apparently dont understand what OR means."? That's just how you phrased it complete with all of the misspellings and punctuation errors. But the original quote I gave you was different than what you provided, and had different content and meaning. You changed it and got mad at me for giving it back to you as you originally posted it. Exactly! There is something seriously wrong with you, and you need help. You accuse me of misrepresenting what you wrote when it is you who misrepresent yourself. And again, the quote you got so hung up on had little to do with my original question from my previous post. Can't you get the voices in your head to agree or comprehend?

Don't you wish we could be back in Misfires where you could make a fool of yourself to a smaller audience?

Thats it!I am off this board...These 4 or 5 lunatics have dominated the off topics section, turning it into their own private pissing ground. Now we are letting them take over the main forum...I be gone....

Adios, we'll miss your sunny disposition. But this action does beg the question... if you despise this so much, why did you read it so often in Misfires? And wasn't it you who initiated the "Militia" thread? Didn't you participate as well? Would you like me to reference a few of your own pissing contests? And how could you ever read any of this if you didn't click on the topics you pretend to hate so much? Too bad you're already gone and no longer available to answer these simple questions.

__________________________
Refugee in Mexico

Adios Amigos;

Maybe everything be better in Meh-He-Co

Hey Last Dollar:
You've whined for months over on misfires because you and your anti friends can't come up with anything logical to refute what we post. Well take you little remaining sack of marbles and go away as you are no credit to this hobby or to the intense fight we're going to be in as United States residents to retain our 2nd Amendment rights.
You of course have given you rights up having relocated to the Republic of Mexico where the only ones with guns are the drug cartels and the equally crooked military.
As far as we're concerned at this point you're just another foreigner interfering in an area where you have no business doing so. What we'll have to go throught in 2013,hopefully united, doen't need or want anything from the likes of you.

No keith, I am very glad you up you are up on your soap box ranting where more reasonable minds can see the vitriol, insanity and hate that you and your cadre of crazies spew. Keep talking about your conspiracy theories as much as possible.

I noticed that for all of of my posts you talk about you give a # for but don't use all of the actual language. Is that because you realize I was talking about assuring that mentally ill people do not gain access to firearms in the home that they live in? I'm pretty sure that is something alot of people, and gun owners alike would agree with. No matter how hard you try to rearrange the letters in "mentally ill" you just cant turn those words into "thief". Same thing for attempting to turn the rationale behind not letting a mentally ill person gain access to firearms to suggesting that I somehow would require that all firearms in every hosehold must kept locked up or face prosecution. Both of which is what you have attempted to do and it is not supported by what I actually said. They are all completely different situations and you imagine them to be the same because your are paranoid and refuse to hear different perspectives. I love it I say apples and you and your crew imagine oranges.

Talking about the mentally ill, lets hear how you guys want to lock up all of the mentally ill bar none, whose only crime was to be born with a defect that leads to mental illness. Jim can help you explain that one. I am sure that there are board members who have a mentally ill relative, in the home or not. I'm sure they would be interested to hear how you feel about that. And you have the nerve to compare yourselves to the persecuted Jews in Nazi Europe.

I also noticed that you cant seem to figure when people are talking about one facet of policy as opposed to another or the whole. To you it just seems as they are just changing positions, but really, it just shows a lack of understanding and comprehension.

I stand by my posts as well, here or in the misfires, from the changes in policy that I support to presenting the case for your illiteracy and other defects that consume you.

BTW what proof do you have that Libs are hopeful and clamoring that there will be another mass shooting? Is there some liberal news article I missed? Please expand upon that.

Please don't ware yourself out. You have a lot more to explain.

"The first piece of luggage on the carousel never belongs to anyone"...........

I waited a few minutes before responding here because I wanted to reflect on where we're been and where we have to go. I was also watching the GB Pakers rule over the Minn. Vikings! I've made multiple posts on this thread I initiated and I would ask anyone to do one thing. Point out anything I've posted on here that's in error, misleading, irrelevant or NOT related to the fight we have ahead of us(Winchester Model 12s notwithstanding!). If we lose this fight everything else IMO will become irrelevant and you might as well take up other pursuits as this board will no longer have a meaning to exist. We will go down the same perilous road that Australia and Great Britian have traversed and become just one more Nanny State.
The anti's don't want "assault" rifles or tactical shotguns. They want anything that shoots either highly regulated or banned entirely. If that's what the majority of you who remain silent here want just email Dave Weber and tell him to relegate this thread to obscurity.
In the end it will be our choice to either put up the best damn fight we can or go meekly along with those who would take away our rights.
Jim

nca225, I have no proof that Liberals are hopeful that there will soon be another mass shooting. All I have is the consistant and predictable behavior they have shown in the past. And my prediction that they will do it in the future because the solutions you and they propose have been tried and failed.

Nowhere have I compared myself to the Jews who were persecuted by the Nazi's. I did note that said persecution was easier after they were disarmed. You, on the other hand, dismissed the observations that more people have been killed in genocides after being disarmed, than anything else. You always ignore the many things that make you look stupid and search for some small technicality that would give you credence. Give it up already. It's not working.

I supplied only the post #'s to your words because anyone can go and check to see what I said and what you said. So far, only you have denied your own words. The only one who has tried to correct me is a mentally ill person who can't keep with the same thought within the same paragraph... you. Also, it is getting a bit tedious and repeatedly proving you are wrong does take time. You're really not worth it because you have proven yourself to be dishonest with us for quite some time. Maybe if others take the time to read your posts, they will read many others as well and they will see how you've evolved recently from a Liberal Obama supporter who claimed he had not infringed on our gun rights and would not do so in a second term. They could also see how you've finally came out of the closet and are touting magazine bans, prosecution of those whose guns fell into the hands of a mentally ill person who stole them. P.S.--that would make said mentally ill person a thief, I'm not rearranging letters or inventing anything. Why are you so desperate looking for some loophole to prove I'm wrong? They could read your post suggesting heavily taxing guns along with illegal drugs and prostitution to reduce use and consumption, and finally questioning why we even have a right to keep and bear arms since you have maintained that the Militia of the Constitution has been replaced by the National Guard. They would also see that you disagree with the Heller ruling that found the 2nd Amendment guarantees an INDIVIDUAL right to the PEOPLE, and not the collective right to the National Guard and the Standing Army that you imagine.

Now, you show us where I or anyone said they wanted all mentally ill people locked up. I certainly never said that. I did say the Liberal ACLU lawyers made it harder to commit an adult who is mentally ill and has violent tendancies. And I certainly don't want mentally ill folks having access to guns... especially you. None of us said we thought mentally ill folks should have access to guns in their homes. But we realized that even locking them in a safe would be no impediment to a criminally evil crazy person. There are already laws that prohibit mentally ill and drug abusers from transferring a firearm. That's a law you yourself have violated.

I can see why Last Dollar got disgusted and left. If more folks would go to Misfires, they would see how many times you've been corrected on your anti-gun solutions, and keep coming back with the same tired crap. It does get old, and it does get time consuming. But we're not going to give you an anti-gun soap-box without knocking you off of it. They would come to understand that you are a taker and not a producer in this country, and how you want and need a Nanny State and desire more government control. They would see how some guys tried to reason with you and provided incontrovertible proof for you. They would also see guys like me do the same and go a step beyond and ridicule you unmercifully. None of it matters, and that's why I came to the conclusion that you are mentally ill yourself. As more and more guys reach the same conclusion, you will find youself getting knocked off of your little soapbox more frequently.

You have no proof save for your conspiracy theories you mean to say. Speaking of conspiracy theories, do you still think that the evil liberal media made it up that Lanza used a .223 based on what you thought were pics of police removing an AR out of Lanza's trunk? You were alone on that one, even Jim could couldnt buy into that one and corrected you that it was a shotgun. Where was you your mea culpa? I understand, so many conspiracies, so hard to keep track of them all.

Your right though, you did catch me on one. I did say there was no proof that Obama wanted to come for the guns. I wonder why he broke that promise? Oh yeah, maybe because there have been at least a half dozen mass shootings since he became president and he got tired of paying for your freedom to shoot off thirty plus rounds a pop with the blood of the innocent and little children. I guess you don't understand that shit like that can change a person's mind on things. But then again all you really care about are your guns.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread909880/pg1

There's the link that showed the long gun being taken out of the shooters car. All day of the shooting and into the night, both police and eyewitnesses inside the school said Lanza had two handguns. That's what was reported on Fox, CNN, MSNBC, and every other news report I saw. That's also what the reporter in this newsclip in the link says. I wasn't there. But if you Google early reports of the shooting at Sandy Hook, you too will find that the Bushmaster did not appear inside the school until the next day. Early reports also said a Saiga shotgun was found at the Lanza home. Again, I wasn't there. And I never got any confirmation that the gun in the trunk was a shotgun. It wasn't until the following day that the two handgun murder weapons were alleged to also include a Bushmaster AR .223. The coroner said all of the dead were killed with a .223. The eyewitnesses who saw him shooting a handgun must have all been wrong. The Newtown Police who said he had a Glock and a SIG handgun somehow missed the much larger Bushmaster.

In addition, Jim never said the gun in the trunk was a shotgun... he only said that it was not an AR type rifle. If what I said was a conspiracy theory, you'd have to include CNN and MSNBC in on it because even those very liberal networks did not report a .223 Bushmaster inside the school until the day after the shooting. I was witness to an armed robbery when I was in college. Neither I nor any of the other three people involved confused the handgun that was used with a rifle. I told the police it was a blued Colt .25 ACP. The others said it was a pistol, a handgun, and a Saturday Night Special. The cops asked me how I knew it was a Colt .25 ACP and I told them I was close enough to read the slide as the robber waved the gun.

Now tell the nice folks the truth about the long discussions we had about Obama and guns. You know damn well we told you that even though he hadn't signed any anti-gun legislation in his first term, he had a 100% anti-gun voting record as a legislator and U.S. Senator, had nominated two very anti-gun Supreme Court Justices, reversed the Bush administration position on the U.N. Small Arms Treaty, refused to sign on to a Friend of Court Brief supporting Heller, covered up the felonious Fast and Furious gunwalking into Mexican Drug Cartels of thousands of weapons, etc.

Obama did not endure other massacres in his first term and finally reach a breaking point... he basically ignored doing what he's doing now because he was more worried about getting re-elected than protecting children. He stayed under the radar as he told Sarah Brady he would. Even now, the dead children are only a pawn for him to get what he wants. He appointed Joe Biden as his Gun Czar because he's too lazy and too busy golfing in Hawaii to do it himself. His solutions and your solutions have been tried and do not work. Why are you so thick headed that you won't even acknowledge that? Gun crime is down because of stricter minimum sentencing guidelines and three strikes and you're out laws that get violent repeat offenders off the streets. The nut who killed his sister and ambushed firemen in New York was on the streets after being paroled for killing his grandmother with a hammer. It's your kind... Liberals who push to free killers and reverse death sentencing. You have more blood on your hands than any of the gunners here do. We never killed anyone. Go clean your own house before you come after our rights.

Have you even looked at the link between Selective Seratonin Reuptake Inhibitors (anti-depressants)and mass shootings, and suicides? No... it's all about thirty round clips to you. I'm more worried about the drugs you're on than the millions of clips and mags that are out there in the hands of law abiding shooters.

I am not at all concerned about "shooting off thirty plus rounds a pop" as you put it. The vast majority of my rifle shooting is done with either 5 shot bolt actions or single shots. I do all of my big game hunting with a flintlock. All of my small game hunting is done with doubles. I always cared about accurate precision shooting more than spraying a lot of lead. If I used thirty round magazines to hunt, I'd expect thirty kills from each. I care more about preventing school and other mass shootings, and even shootings where only one person is shot, more than you or Obama, because I'm interested in attacking the root causes, not an inanimate object and a Constitutional Right. I'm interested in trying things that might work instead of things that never worked. But then again, all you ever cared about was gun control. You just lied to us and pretended to be one of us.

In my country we went from a no permit for shotguns situation to this law in just FIVE years:

"any implement capable of being used for offensice or defensive purposes is hereby regarded as a weapon and is prohibited". A ballistic vest has been treated as a prohibited weapon under the above law. Lawyers analyse whether bullet proof glass would be regarded as a prohibited defensive implement. There is academic discussion pondering the difference between "defense" and "protection".

There is no limit to gun control at "reasonable" levels. It has a built in "creep factor" and comes in a package that includes "discretionary" powers for officials and "administrative" functions which gradually burden the citizen.

The interesting thing in the US gun issue is that while there is talk of curtailing the right, no one seems to be considering emphasising the attendant duties of gun ownership, such as proper training, safe storage, etc. The single minded aim at "control" says a lot.

Am I a mind-numbed robot as liberals say about people who listen to Limbaugh? Hardly. When I first heard him in the 80s, I said; "Finally; a person in the media who thinks like me."

It may have been mentioned already in this long thread, but the first shots of the revolution were fired because the British were coming to DISARM the people of Concord.

The first and formost reason for the 2nd Amendment is for the people to defend themselves from an oppressive government. That's why we need to fight tooth and nail against anymore infringement on the 2nd Amendment.

The Declaration of Independence states..."that when any form of government becomes destructive to theses ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it,...." That is why THE PEOPLE are the militia and........................
WHY MANY STATEIST POLITICIANS HATE THE 2ND AMENDMENT!!

Quote:
"In addition, Jim never said the gun in the trunk was a shotgun... he only said that it was not an AR type rifle."

Keith:
You are absolutely correct here and I only indicated the gun in the trunk shown in that fuzzy video wasn't an AR type rifle as was being reported in the mainstream news at that time. It was finally admitted to being a shotgun at a later date.
I am also receiving contrary reports that all the shooting in the school was carried out with Lanza's two pistols and if he had an AR with him it wasn't used. This assertion however is not confirmed so I'm waiting for clarification here like everyone else.
N.B. I'll post more later when I return from church.
Jim

THE TRVTH?

It no longer makes any difference to a good deal of the population. Mass and Social Media are a vehicle for centralizing authorities, that has been a dream for Statists all thru time. The supporters of the O'Gunhaters and Grabbers are nothing more than a reflexive tribal need to belong, feel safe, and to be 'right' in identity with the leadership figure that validates THEM.

Rational discussion, and those bothersome facts are not in the equation. Exceptions to that are the old fogy bunch that have actually read history, read precedents and law, understand the origins of this country, are students of our culture and expect rational conclusions to be drawn, therefrom.

Our culture's future is legally in the hands of people who want to end it. There is the remotest hope that a mass occupation of the Capitol by well-organized protestors, picketing Congress and the WhiteHouse, and camping for an extended period of time on the National Mall, almost immediately -- might have the tiniest blip of mitigating this train wreck.

However, as friend of mine recently observed, "I'm glad I'm old"

No plug pulling will occur on this thread. Recent events dictate a more “in your face” response to the current anti-gun initiatives that will be aimed in our direction over the next several years.

Facts are facts...

Rather than seek and implement a meaningful solution to deranged evil INDIVIDUALS who commit multiple heinous crimes without regard for any laws the Obama reality show and its’ never ending political campaign will exploit any tragedy to further their agenda.

The current US democratic (socialist) administration and all their comrades in the liberal media are coming for our firearms (not just modern firearms...all of them!), ammunition and any other implement that gives “We The People” the ability trump the power of their ever expanding government…The end game is to control the masses by extinguishing the freedoms of the individual.

The hypocrisy of "Fast and Furious"…they get to break the laws we are required to live by.

The armed guards at the schools their kids attend….our kids don’t need the same protection theirs do.

The unending fleecing of the WORKING American tax payer…they burn our money by funding their friends, furthering their power and floating our future on borrowing from one of our arch rivals the Chinese.

They preach diversity…but they roll on “my way or the highway”. Don’t question the high and mighty cause they know best. (Yes…apparently I am too stupid to have any personal responsibility and need the government to take care of me and wipe my ass all the time.)

I could go on for hours...

Just a reminder to all:

US Constitution – Bill of Rights - Amendment II

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

PS - I happen to like Rush; Often he is inspiring, sometimes he is wrong...But each and every time he is educational and fosters critical thinking.

Very well said Dave, I sure hope the Libs on here read and digest what you wrote........these liberal fools voted for the destruction of our nation piece by piece, I hope they are proud of themselves.......

This administration has been and is a continuing train wreck, the absolute worst in the history of our Great Nation...........

Thank you Dave, well done......+1000....

Best Regards to all Who Support The 2nd Amendment and the entire Bill of Rights as originally ratified and the United States of America , God Bless You All........

http://news.yahoo.com/white-house-mulls-...tml?.tsrc=yahoo

This didn't take long, restrictions on private sales and a national gun registry. We must resist this.

"Our culture's future is legally in the hands of people who want to end it."

That's the most cogent comment I've read here on the issue.

That's why I wrote earlier that the man I'm watching with greatest interest in the US is John Boehner, criticized here as a RINO at my mention.

Americans vote for what they want. John Boehner is trying to preserve his party and serve the country. If he can't do the former, god help the country without a viable opposition.

JohnM is a man valued for his contributions. If the GOP continues its suicidal internecine course, condemning it to a radical rump in national affairs, I join John in "Being glad that I'm old."

I don't want to see the consequences.

Well done indeed,very please to have been on this forum for many years and Dave Weber moderation is why it is still the best !

Hey wait a minute. My Small Munsterlander inquiry is off topic? Then an questions about favorite hunting photos etc are off topic. jeez man, If fine hunting dogs are not directly connected to fine guns, then we need to go back to the strictest interpretation of the double gun BBS. LOL.

The BBS site description states the following: Questions & Answers - Side-by-side shotguns, Doubleguns, GameGuns...etc. English, European & American. As well as Double Rifles, Drillings, Combination Guns and other fine firearms.
No where does it mention, hunting, reloading, gunsmithing, losing friends or wives or dogs, someone getting cancer, someone dying, etc. so, lets either tighten our shot groups or stop pointing fingers and whining about trivial stuff when the very core of our gunrights is in the process of a very possible cataclysmic change.

Myself, I think that we are doing fine with regards to the content on the BBS, and that this issue is extremely relevant and important to all of our futures as gun owners. While under other circumstances, an isolated gun control bill at the local level might not warrant posting here, we are talking about a monumental change in our rights as Americans. So to dismiss, quarantine or remove this topic would not be our best interests as a group.

While many of you dont like the black guns, so be it. I dont care for all of the dress up, costume party types and the jackets and ties but I would hunt with anyone who wore it (as long as they were a safe and ethical hunter or huntress) but that’s my prerogative. I don’t call anyone those names and I know there may be one or two people out there who may think I am just not sophisticated enough to understand why they do what they do. Doesn’t matter. That’s their choice. Just like we can choose to not read a post. BTW, my choice is Filson, LL Bean and Danners.

But the bigger question that I find hard to fathom is why there are many gun owners who either claim to be Obama supporters but will parrot that he has not and shows no indication of taking away our guns or are those that are for “reasonable restrictions” on our guns (aka our gun rights).

It was presented in several news forums today that the administration is proposing a national database of firearms and their owners. That’s national registration. What other item in this country that is used by private citizens who have a constitutional right to own is registered in a national database. There is evenb talk of confiscation in my home state of New York; proposed by a Democrat State Senator and endorsed by a Democrat governor. A newspaper in NY that published the names and addresses of thousands of gun owners, by a newspaper editor that is a staunch democrat, confirmed by the publc records of campaign contribution records.

How many of you who are in favor of “reasonable controls” would be willing to accept the same thing for your cell phones? Your home computers? Your alcohol? Your tobacco? How about waiting periods to buy alcohol? What about for cell phones. What about a permit system for cell phones? Just think how many pedophiles and child molesters we could stop from committing crimes if we only registered computers and cell phones and place reasonable restrictions on them?

How about the drunk drivers. With waiting periods for alcohol, the weekend would be over before they got a drink. And no more serving alcohol at home. Only in licensed drinking establishments. And you would have to have your ID called in to a national background check before you could be served.

What about regulating cell phones. The overwhelming majority of people arrested in this country have cell phones on their person when they are arrested. Cell phones facilitate drug crime, sex crimes, etc. I could go on and on.
People would not stand for those “reasonable restrictions for those items which aren’t even covered in our constitution. Yet so many are willing to have their rights restricted if just one life is saved.

Last year, when 20 illegals were killed in a speeding overloaded pick-up truck down in texas, no one called for any controls on pick up trucks or anything.

You don’t like black guns. Okay, fine, don’t buy any. You don’t like hand guns, fine, don’t buy any. I have never in my 54 + years ever heard a handgun owner, a black rifle owner, a pump shotgun or semi auto shotgun owner say one thing negative about double shotguns or over unders. NOT ONE THING, NEVER. I cant say that about gun owners talking about black guns or handguns or semi auto or pump guns.

The same folks who want to severely control guns are the same ones who approve of murdering hundreds of thousands of unborn children every year, the same ones who say a woman has a right to kill her unborn child all the way up to the point when the baby is in the birth canal and the head is visible. (Partial birth abortion) These are the same folks who want to legalize marijuana and other drugs. And don’t you out there who disagree say that this isn’t true and it isn’t the Democrats’ and Obama. These are tenants and planks of the Democrat party.

So, getting back to the reason for my response. As off topic as some will claim it to be. Bury your heads in the sand, hold your high priced double close to your bosom, sip your single malt and smoke that Cuban, while you are sitting in the den of your house, watching Chris Matthews; and watch as our gun rights are destroyed if this national registration, being proposed by the Obama administration, and according to Biden will be passed by the end of the month comes to fruition. At least that’s what the administration wants. Take advantage of a crisis, right?

So, some of you will call it garbage, call it trash but we will all be able to call the outcome , if unfavorable to gun owners, a travesty and the point of no return for our country and our individual liberties. Then all of you who voted for and said Obama would never do it will have your humble pie. I pray to god I am wrong and that this will not come to pass, but we are on the brink of constitutional fratricide.

I'm with you Dave, keep it on this forum.

Thank you Dave. We really appreciate what you've done and what you said.

keith

Good call, Dave. Thanks to you once again for this forum.

All my best, SRH

What changes in the law are valid regulation of the militia within the bounds of the 2nd Amendment which unquestionably holds we have a right to bear arms?

Some history on gun control you will not hear from the complicit media-be ready for well planned attack on guns by the media/administration when the left brings the many bill up at the end of the month and tries to ram them through

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th century because of gun control: 56 million.

You won’t see this data on the U.S. evening news or hear politicians disseminating this information. Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens.

I am hoping with Dave's support that the majority who have remained silent here, but I expect activly support our RTKABA, will now be more willing to voice your opinions and that everyone realizes we are all in this together. Get involved it's going to take more than paying for an annual NRA membership this time.
Don't be averse to contacting your Congressman even if they are ultraliberal and let your thoughts be known. Keep in mind that unlike Obama most of them will have to stand for re-election and they have a lot to lose. We made a big difference in the Clinton mid-term elections on "gun" control in 1994 and we can do it again.
Once more I would like to thank Dave Weber for hanging tough on this most important issue to us.
Jim

What changes in the law are valid regulation of the militia within the bounds of the 2nd Amendment which unquestionably holds we have a right to bear arms?

I support and defend the right of citizens in good standing to be armed in order to defend themselves from criminals and governmental tyranny. The Supreme Court made it clear that some regulation was valid and that our rights were not without some restraint or better said regulation.

In other words the right can be regulated and it is important that reasonable people seek common ground at ensuring the preservation of our rights through sound regulation.

Regulations are already thick and while some appear silly to me many are not.

I do not believe we want mental cases to carry, I do not believe we want innocents killed. I do not believe we want armed guards at every school.

What change or improvement can be made in our current law that can make a difference?

What can we do now ?How about getting rid of gun free zones,and protecting not just the elite/politicians and media's children.Lets protect them all.

1. Not one 'feel good' change in existing gun laws will make one bit of difference in the maniac violent mass killings.....thousands of gun laws have been passed since the Gun Control Act of 1968 with zero effect on the crime rate, as proven by stacks and stacks of data.......crime rises continually........Chicago followed by NYC have the strictest firearm laws in the land, and with it they have the highest firearm crime rate.......DO THESE FIREARMS LAWS WORK...THE STATISTICS ALL SAY NO.....not even close.......

2. You can go to any large metro city in this country and see gangs armed to the teeth with illegal firearms having missing serial numbers, owned by convicted felons.......do these people obey the law.....?......Do criminals buy firearms at Randy's Handy Dandy Gun Shop and fill out the paperwork....?........Mental cases steal bull dozers, airplanes and tanks and commit violent crimes with repetition, same M.O..........

3. As long as we allow politicians to pass more legislation, not having any real first hand knowledge whatsoever about firearms, the legislation will be totally ineffective and useless until the real problem is addressed, starting with mental and drug issues...............All the firearm laws passed since 1968 are useless and have had no effect on crime......look at all the statistics, study them, the politicians won't, the liberals won't...........

4. The public always over reacts to every sensationalized news article..........the problems are people problems, not TOOL PROBLEMS.........address the problem if you want results on any issue........STOP PROGRAMMING YOUTH WITH VIOLENT DVD'S that de-humanize killing, glamorize death, stop handing out drugs like candy to everybody from womb to tomb..........Why do you think all these nut-balls dress in black and use black guns....because that is what THE TRAINING VIDEO'S TEACH THEM TO WEAR AND WHAT WEAPON TO USE AND HOW TO MASS KILL..........

So every new nut-ball wants to out-do the last maniac nut ball......

This is exactly how the nut-ball maniac in Norway bombed and shot and killed 77 people and wounded 209.....a country with very strict gun laws.....did the gun laws in Norway prevent this maniac from shooting summer students on the island and people in Oslo and killing more with bombs made from fertilizer components in Oslo as well.........This maniac, after incarceration, recounted to authorities how he trained using violent military style attack DVD's.....he used the exact weapon and dress that he observed and trained with in these videos.........so why aren't we restricting the manufacture and sale of these DVD's to young people.....?........

5. Take the fork away from Rosie O'Donnell and would she still be fat....?.....

6. As with any government, as mentioned here before, once you give them an inch, they take about 10 miles minimum.......REMEMBER THE SATURDAY NIGHT SPECIAL THAT INITIATED THE GUN CONTROL ACT OF 1968......DID ALL THOSE LAWS WORK......I DON'T THINK SO...........Hinkley came along later and shot President Reagan with his .22 revolver......then the politicians started in again, same rhetoric, same result, same piles of more paperwork and regulation with ZERO effect........BUT I'LL BET PRESIDENTIAL SECURITY WAS ENHANCED AND BECAME MORE EFFECTIVE..........as you can see, that is what was really needed in President Reagans case in the first place.........

7. Can you see the trend here.......?.......

8. The money and effort needs to be spent on the problem, violent DVD's/movies/websites which enforce maniac tendencies in already unstable mental cases and illegal/legal drug use by millions................ in the meantime the schools need to be armed......not "gun free target zones" for these "in training nut-balls".........

9. Today's world my friend is not what it used to be....Security must be a major priority in malls, schools, theaters and all public gathering places.....it's just a fact of the electronic world we live in today.......lot's of off center individuals programmed by what they see and watch on the virtual electronic toilets of our day......

We used to have very good censors for all programs.....I guess they went on vacation.......

The symbolic "gun free zone" has been demonstrated to be a trap for those forced to endure it. Every, single, mass shooting event in the last two decades is inescapably tied to it, nurtured by it, and the result of it.

I am not quite ready to say mass shootings were the desired outcome of those on the left who implemented it.

But, I'm damn close.

IT HAS TO GO, in every single public place it has been implemented.

Best,
Ted

old colonel, if you mean what would make an improvement in the homicide-by-guns rate, none of the mooted changes would make a speck of difference. It is what it is. Google those for US, Canada and Russia, contiguous countries across the top of the world, each with different governance, different systems, different people. As the only country I know of to have introduced a long-gun registry and got rid of it with popular consent, with a handgun registry and regulations that haven't been challenged by the shooting sports fraternity since its inception 80 years ago, Canada's homicide rate is a consequence of what our citizens have chosen democratically, as they are in the US and Russia. You could no more change our "gun cultures" than change what makes our countries the homes of the best hockey players in the world: the spirit, passion and tradition of our peoples.

Quote; Italiansxs
"Don't be averse to contacting your Congressman even if they are ultraliberal and let your thoughts be known. Keep in mind that unlike Obama most of them will have to stand for re-election and they have a lot to lose. We made a big difference in the Clinton mid-term elections on "gun" control in 1994 and we can do it again."

Washington phone to contact your senators and representatives. 202 224 3121......be polite but firm.


Something else to consider that I don't think was brought up. Scroll down a little to 'When drugs backfire causing gunfire'
https://herbdocblog.com/

BTW: This Doc has black belts in three different arts and carries a Glock.

Dave, let me also applaud your decision to let this thread run its course. Either we're for or against gun control. I happen to be against it. I'm not sure I'm am a part of the majority of our country in this opinion.

We must have some forum to express our opinions on this. If not here on a gun site, then where? I do not think the nutcases on our forum accurately express our positions. On the "off topic" forum here I choose to ignore three of the folks that upset me, but I think their opinions should be considered by the full membership with appropriate comments by the members here who have an opinion without the gang tackling tactics that prevail on the bottom forum.

We have some good minds here and I believe your decision to let this thread remain at the top of the page will result in some opinions that may just make a difference in the battle with which we are faced....Geo

old colonel, if you look at some of the restrictions on guns and gunowners that are being now being considered, you'll see that almost all have been tried before at local, state, and federal level... and they had no measureable effect on reducing crime. Much the same can be said for these types of restrictions in other countries. So as mass murders still persisted, the solution was/is always more and more gun control. In many instances, we see that violent crime is actually more prevalent where gun control is the most restrictive.

Overall, gun murders in the U.S. are much lower now than they were 20 or 30 years ago. The rates continued to drop after the Clinton Assault Weapon Ban was dropped, and ownership of these guns actually increased. It seems apparent that the overall murder rate drop was tied to stricter mandatory sentencing guidelines and the Three Strikes and You're Out laws that kept a larger percentage of violent felons off the streets. An even better long term solution might be to identify and address the cultural and mental issues that cause people to essentially become animals with no soul and no concience. None of the anti-gunners are even talking about the influence of violent movies, videos, and games. Doesn't that seem a bit odd and even suspicious to you? It's all about the guns. It's always the fault of gun owners, even though 99.99% of us will never hurt anyone with a gun.

If you followed this debate in Misfires, you might have read about the link between Mass Shootings and the prescribing of certain anti-depressants and ADHD drugs. Go to ssristories.com for starters and do a little research into the indisputable link between these massacres and the increased use of this class of drugs. SSRI's are Selective Seratonin Reuptake Inhibitors which include Prozac, Zoloft, Luvox and many other commonly prescribed drugs. They are also commonly prescribed for Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome, and are suspected of causing the unprecedented numbers of suicides among Iraq and Afghanistan veterans. The Pharmaceutical Industry is making billions while law abiding gunowners are being blamed for the often deadly side effects. Once again, the anti-gunners aren't even talking about this. Why? Do they really want to save lives, or do they just want our guns?

Quite a few of us here, myself included, took guns to school either to go hunting after class, or to participate in Rifle Clubs or Teams. We had an indoor range in my school and I bought my ammunition from the school. We had NRA certified instructors who took no B.S. and tolerated no lapse in safety. For those of us who lived that, it is obvious that guns aren't the problem. Something else changed and until we address that specifically, none of these feel-good laws are likely to stop the violence.

There are already at least 300 million guns in the hands of at least 40 million gunowners in the U.S. There are 10's of millions of semi-automatics and 10's of millions of high capacity magazines already out there. Even if half of them were confiscated, registered, or turned in, plenty would still be available to a determined psycopath. We just can't put that Genie back in the bottle. Even if we outlawed all future sales of ALL guns, criminals would still find a way to get guns. Cocaine and Marijuana and Heroin are quite illegal, yet tons of those drugs are smuggled into the U.S. every week. Drug dogs can't sniff out an AK-47.

We already do have considerable restrictions on our Second Amendment rights. People adjuticated mentally ill cannot legally possess guns. There are very strict regulations on Class III firearms. Contrary to what the media would have us believe, you can't buy grenades and bazookas at gun shows. We are already subject to backround checks for purchases from dealers. I'd bet Adam Lanza's mother was subjected to the backround check for all of her guns. Even if they had been registered in some Government Database, how would that have stopped her deranged son from misusing them? We've discussed the propensity of hi-cap magazines to cause jams and the speed with which smaller capacity mags can be changed. How much carnage could a sniper with a bolt action rifle cause from a hillside overlooking a crowded football stadium before he was stopped? A deranged killer will always find a way. So how far do you want to restrict the right of the 99.99% of law abiding gun owners?

Obama has said he doesn't think Americans should own guns. Period. He said that to Professor John Lott at the Univ. of Chicago.

That sir, is the end game. I don't wish to play that game.

The reason we're here and not there, George, is because of civil tongues. My day job is finding solutions to protracted social problems. It always comes down to the social. Everyone here is against grabbers. We go adrift when members forget manners and Dave shoves us off into a corner where we belong.

The current Scientific American has an article on "logic compartmentalization,"of how interest groups like ourselves fall on their swords by allowing myths to dominate i.e. young earth-old earth, evolution-creation, climate change etc. We beat each other up instead of widening the tent to get on with it.

King, How can you say this with a straight face?

The majority, yes. Everyone? You can't be serious. I'll be cordial and not name names.

King, we have a number of very twisted liberals on this board who supported, voted for and are very vocal about the current administration and their love for ALL it's efforts, sorry but you're dreaming......

[quote=King Brown] " with a handgun registry and regulations that haven't been challenged by the shooting sports fraternity since its inception 80 years ago"

What TOTAL BS! We have bitched and fought against the handgun registry for years.

What a misguided jer.... person.

To simply say all previous attempts by the anti's are evil and have not worked is to guarantee we will eventually lose our rights if we do not ensure we do what is reasonable.

Let me venture a few ideas that may yield some ground

First improved computerized background check system which will include those mentally ill, prescribed, and otherwise challenged as sound purchasers of weapons. Yes I realize it will have many failures in that there are other sources of weapons, but some saved are better than none.

Second create better resources in our communities so the mentally ill have better options than they do today. Having witnessed a family near me deal with trying to get their daughter who was failing care was heart breaking. The lack of inpatient care resources left them with incarceration as an only option. The liberal do gooders who destroyed the old system failed to create anything to realistically replace it. In my state the state legislature took the cost savings of closing the state mental health facilities, but never funded the replacement care.

Third let’s take on the culture of Hollywood that hypocritically contributes and profits from amorality while supporting the theft of our rights.

Fourth lets sponsor a change in the Gun Free Zone signs to add the image of a lamb with a target sight imposed on it. This will help those who have insisted on exercising their legal property right to prohibit guns to include a full realization as to what they have created; a soft target rich environment.

It may be a great tactic to simply say no and attack the discussion, but the NRAs position that we need more guns is not sufficient

Doug, I haven't met a person who could be categorized as supporting or believing everything their party says. Even if they said such a thing, if they were willing to work to push back the grabbers I'd accept their assistance with thanks.

This isn't dreaming. Taking help where you can get without putting anyone through Wasserman tests and oaths of allegience is the way Canadians ridded themselves of a criminalizing registry. Americans haven't reached a consensus of how to win. It won't the way it's proceeding.

Just think of it: it's madness, ideology rampant, to suggest that liberals haven't as much stake in their country as conservatives. The consequences of such thinking is the pathetic face my loved country is presenting to the world today as literally not able to manage its affairs.

Yes, there's no such thing as unanimity in anything. We've countrymen who believe in all sorts of things. There has been no concerted effort or lobbying by the shooting sports fraternity in Canada to get rid of the handgun registry. We've considered changes in regulations re transport to gun clubs etc but support the no-packing as antithetical to the Canadian ethos.

Was starfire a loved quarterhorse or good Olds, please? Members have been wondering.

[img]http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/24282831[/img]

King,

If that were a true statement, why indeed, would any citizen with an I.Q. over 40, vote for the demise of their own nation after watching in his first term, BO's destruction and performance.....?.......And now, still supporting this fool as he and his administration attack the Bill of Rights and Constitution on which our nation was founded.........?........You must view the world through very Rose colored glasses my friend..........

"I find it very interesting that BO lost in every state that required voter I.D., and won in every state that "did not" require voter I.D.".......


"America is the only country where a significant proportion of the people believe that professional wrestling is real but the moon landing was faked"

King may be right, about no concerted effort to get rid of the Canadian handgun registry. That being said, why have the S&W 44 DA top break revolvers chambered in 44 Russian (obsolete caliber all made pre-1899) come up in value so much in the USA? Canadians buy them to be used as back country side arms that don't require registration.

Mr. Webber thank you Sir !

"Fourth lets sponsor a change in the Gun Free Zone signs to add the image of a lamb with a target sight imposed on it. This will help those who have insisted on exercising their legal property right to prohibit guns to include a full realization as to what they have created; a soft target rich environment"

John Lott and William Landees did a study in 1999,not the last line in the exert from the article John Fund wrote ;

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/335739/facts-about-mass-shootings-john-fund



Economists John Lott and William Landes conducted a groundbreaking study in 1999, and found that a common theme of mass shootings is that they occur in places where guns are banned and killers know everyone will be unarmed, such as shopping malls and schools.

I spoke with Lott after the Newtown shooting, and he confirmed that nothing has changed to alter his findings. He noted that the Aurora shooter, who killed twelve people earlier this year, had a choice of seven movie theaters that were showing the Batman movie he was obsessed with. All were within a 20-minute drive of his home. The Cinemark Theater the killer ultimately chose wasn’t the closest, but it was the only one that posted signs saying it banned concealed handguns carried by law-abiding individuals. All of the other theaters allowed the approximately 4 percent of Colorado adults who have a concealed-handgun permit to enter with their weapons.

“Disarming law-abiding citizens leaves them as sitting ducks,” Lott told me. “A couple hundred people were in the Cinemark Theater when the killer arrived. There is an extremely high probability that one or more of them would have had a legal concealed handgun with him if they had not been banned.”

Lott offers a final damning statistic: “With just one single exception, the attack on congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords in Tucson in 2011, every public shooting since at least 1950 in the U.S. in which more than three people have been killed has taken place where citizens are not allowed to carry guns.”

It is a true statement. America voted twice in a row for Obama, as they voted twice in a row for Bush, and so on. Canada also changes its mind regularly on governance. I don't think you're suggesting that morons and wise men are providing alternating mandates, that those who voted for Obama are lesser persons. I have said Obama is in and GOP out because it ran a surpassingly stupid campaign. That's not a rap on the people who voted GOP, only the apparatchiks who thought their message put victory in the bag. Again, that's why I'm intriqued by Boehner who is trying to serve his country and party, to suture the wounds, to widen the tent to bring in those "40 IQs" needed to win. If he doesn't the party will be a long time in the wilderness, and we will, too.

Some states take gun laws more serious than others........thank God........

Richard Henry Lee
Signer of the Declaration of Independance.
There is simply no question as to the intent of the 2nd Amedment. It is not about hunting, It is not about breaking clay targets, It is not about collecting antique guns. When the SHYSTERS destroy the intent of the 2nd Amendment then anything at all related to guns becomes a privaledge, not a Right & can readily be taken away with a Whim. People in this Nation better Wake up or it'll be too late.

King, it sounds like you are answering Doug's post here, but I cannot believe you actually read what he said. Either that, or you are deliberatly trying to change the meaning and content of his very clear words.

Unless I'm dellusional, it looked to me as if Doug was saying that Obama was re-elected due to massive voter fraud. I would have to agree, because it's physically impossible to have voter turnouts in some precints of 150% of registered voters. It is statistically nearly impossible to have very large precints where even one voter was either illiterate, or simply made an error and voted for Romney. It is crazy to think that there was really less Republican voter enthusiasm for Romney in 2012 than for McCain in 2008, and that several million less turned out to vote in 2012. It is crazy to think that we didn't have millions more simply voting for anyone but Obama this time versus in 2008 when he was more of an unknown quantity.

But you conveniently and deliberatly ignore this just as you pretend to ignore the fact that there are "grabbers" right here on this forum, and you also ignore the fact that these "grabbers", to a man, supported and continue to support Obama. Not one who claimed he supported gun rights has disavowed him or criticized him for revealing his true anti-gun colors.

When we sometimes categorize these "grabbers" as "grabbers", we are not putting anyone through "Wasserman tests" and alienating potential allies. We are simply calling a spade a shovel... something you refuse to do with any flaming liberal notions exhibited here ever. You say you are not dreaming. I believe you. I believe you because you do it all the time and it's become very obvious that doing so is your concious intent. Doug says it's wearing rose colored glasses. Doug is being too kind. I think it's not nearly so innocent.

P.S. You could have referenced me by name as the guy who called John Boehner a RINO. I don't run from my words or pretend I didn't say them. I have no hidden agenda. Boehner kept this country on the path to certain insolvency and eventual bankruptcy with costs that will be borne by our kids and grandkids. Acquiescing and working with self destructive forces is not my idea of intelligent or admirable.

...as what is happening and will happen. Here.

Citizens, The Campaign and Tactics, please.

Call every one of YOUR Political Representatives, make your voice heard.....as 2holer said, be polite, but be firm.....Democrat or Republican, call them and keep calling them.......

Donate what you can afford to the NRA and other Pro-Gun Groups who are intense and active.....

If it ends up as a "March on Washington" to be heard, sponsered by the NRA, "be there"...no excuses....take vacation, whatever.............

Wow King, that reads like a symphony, but what does that have to do with the price of tea in china. I don't think GOP representatives have been slicing and dicing anyone up. They can pass out bandaids if you want them to, but maybe the republicans should just work on getting their constituents to the polls. Big as you want your tent to be, the GOP couldn't lie about enough welfare to trick new followers.

The biden gift I'm worried about most is the mandatory registration for all firearms transfers. Wonder if they give pro gunners a superficial win on the black gun ban, but make criminals out of anyone who doesn't do the paperwork.

It has plenty to do with turning back the grabbers. To denigrate members who work diligently to thwart the grabbers, on the basis of their political inclinations, is self-defeating. There's enough cocksureness in foul-stocked minds here to close off the cooperative spirit we need to bring others to our side. The grabbers in Canada are emboldened by current circumstances to be seeking advantage. We'd lose our reasoned high ground if we engaged publicly in partisan bickering as it's done on this board. Underestimating adversaries, believing god favours true believers, is the surest way I know to lose.

I'm glad I never denigrate the members who really do work diligently to thwart the grabbers... only the ones who subtly support them.

keith, ever been in action? Ever participated in winning at gun control. It's a great feeling. Ever generate policy advice for a party trying to reverse a registry? At the cabinet level in your nation's capital and provincial legislature? Ever speak truth to power---and win? I don't think so. As veterans here have advised: stick to tactics of how to win, give your all. Anything else is a waste of time.

Which is it King, take no prisoners tail kicker, or ring master of the big tent. All due kudos for your accomplishments, wrong place for my two cents.

King: "believing god favours true believers, is the surest way I know to lose." If that statement was true, Obama would be a historical footnote.

It's as Jim said early on, "If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem. Nuff said."

And I think I know where a certain tro..er..person stands.

King, I think we'd all be very interested in the specifics of what you personally did to reverse the gun registry in Canada. It sounds as if you personally were a driving force in that success story. You make it seem that you did way more than Mr. Average Canadian Gunowner. It might be very instructive, but I don't know because you've only given us very vague generalities so far. I'm conflicted when you say you don't think I personally have done anything to reverse, or win, or forestall gun control initiatives. How do you know that? (You're wrong, by the way, but there is always room for improvement) I also find it odd that you would make that assumption and accusation while at the same time you are ignoring or excusing the overt and not so overt gun-controllers or grabbers who inhabit this forum. I never saw you once, in any way, try to change the minds of anyone who made the knee jerk reccomendation to restrict guns rather than attempt other solutions. But I and others who are passionately pro-2nd Amendment are frequently taken to task by you. I'm afraid I don't understand this winning strategy of yours.

I personally have no problem engaging the fence sitters or gunners who are simply not as involved as they might be at a time when the threat is imminent and serious. I also understand how some are either confused by misinformation or simply lulled, and I do my best to inform and educate until it becomes apparent that they will see no solution or consider no option but punishing the law abiding for the crimes of a psychopath. I fail to see how it serves any purpose to sleep with the enemy. There are some who will never enter your big tent no matter how sweet we are or how much proof we provide to convince them. Do you find it odd that none who have weighed in on your reply to me are in agreement with you?

Do you really think I could get nca225 to join the NRA or see that the anti-gun solutions he proposed over and over have been tried, but failed? Not in a million years. No one who was nice to him got any further than I did resorting to harsh treatment. You are lecturing me about what works and what is a waste of time. But you are advising me/us to waste our time with people who are hell bent on restricting our rights, and who will not be deterred. Ever! That's simply crazy. Do you really think I and fellow NRA members and fellow gun owners could ever change the hearts and minds of avowed anti-2nd Amendment politicians like Obama, Feinstein, Schumer, Biden, Boxer, Waxman, Bloomberg, et al? We'd have a better chance using alchemy to turn our lead shot into gold. Being like Neville Chaimberlain won't win this war either.

It's become abundantly clear that the only Big Tent where these types are reside is The Anti Gun Circus. The latest Circus has come to town and it is still an anti-gun circus and it features the same old clowns. They are not interested in the truth and they intentionally dissemminate incorrect information about guns and gunowners. Their act is promoted by an anti gun Liberal media that you continually make excuses for. Tell us how that works. Tell us how that's a winning tactic.

Very good Keith, I can't wait for the reply with strategies, tactics etc. from Canada......!.....

Bigger tent, more firewood...?.....

Best,

keith, I posted below on another thread today. My advice earlier was plain as pudding: take every supporter willing to work with you. Don't look to politics or where one disagrees on other matters; what counts is another helping hand. As far as contributing, each to his own experience. Those who are shy and not familiar with public spaces often work through their organizations i.e. service clubs, Legions etc. In my own case, I have influence as working successfully with the formula above for decades on public issues, am asked by conservatives (as on gun control) and liberals and greens and often all these working together but separately to achieve particular policy objectives. I've found that inventing methods leading to cooperatiion beats competition. As for members here who see things differently---I'm a jerk and a troll and luller, remember!---that's not to get your knickers in a knot. Do they want to help, how do they want to help? Sign 'em up. Pretty simple stuff. The distinguishing feature is that it works. Here's earlier advice today:


"There hasn't been mention of another factor in the defeat of the registry here. Media was all over the cost of the registry as it grew like topsy from projected hundred million or so to billions. It's a stretch to say it became household conversation but no one had difficulty grasping the issue in a hunting country: it was a colossal waste. For all the shooting sports' lobbying and protests, I'd venture that making the registry part of daily conversations with neighbours and friends had as much to do with the outcome as anything.

"Money isn't everything. Citizens of our county opposed the provincial government and opposition parties bowing to the business community on where a Trans-Canada Highway bypass would go. All the money, ALL the politicians against them, they won. They filled halls, published cartoons in community newspapers, paid for 10 30-second spots a day on radio stations. No politician can stand up to that because they're not tied to money---they're tied to votes.

"Unblushingly, I ran that campaign. Your great poet Whitman said there can't be great poets without great audiences. There can't be leaders without great followers who understand issues. In the example above, citizens put public safety ahead of party loyalties, before selfish business interests. That applies to the United States as it does to Canada. Biden's borrowing and printing can't thwart the will of a determined populace. Hope this helps."

There you are, Doug. The results have been satisfactory. How are yours?

...eventually becomes a form of compulsive behavior. The history of BBS's is replete with the growing glow of seduction that the printing of one's clever arguments and words produce upon one's soul.

Take it from me....

When you stop doing that, you've really 'won'.

the deponent saith naught further..

Doug, your co-pilot's competence counts for more than his opinions, eh?

When my son was interviewed early in his professional career by the owner of a major corporation responsible for the aviation department, there was a hitch when the owner asked my son what salary he expected.

With the chief pilot looking on, my son gave his last salary and the owner said "You're only keeping the seat warm. There are lots of kids who would take it for nothing, for the experience."(It was a MU-2)

My son, a very low-key guy, said "Mr. -----, if something happens to the pilot on short final, the right seat has to be good and maybe a little better than good."

Within a year my son was chief pilot.

If our shooting sports are to hold their own, we'll have to educate over the widest possible front. No one learns from insults and shouts. You do neither; it's only what needs repeating here.

Kingsley,

That is exactly what we used CRM for sir, driving 'heavies' all over the world requires a bit more cockpit coordination, training and experience than a group of 'varied' opinions ......

There is no parallell between flying the line with a major carrier and dealing with Liberal Socialist Politicians who wish to "dictate gun control" over the present and future sporting population of this great nation......

You are mixing reality with direction my friend.......the task at hand requires "no middle ground" if we wish to maintain our gun rights as they stand at present......

The liberals on this board and elsewhere, "would give up some middle ground" as long as "their specific individual" gun rights are not effected......

The "true second amendment partisans" on this board and all over our great land, will not give up one second amendment right as originally ratified in 1791........this is where we differ......as others have said here, not debateable,.......

"There is no parallell between flying the line with a major carrier and dealing with Liberal Socialist Politicians who wish to "dictate gun control" over the present and future sporting population of this great nation......

You are mixing reality with direction my friend.......the task at hand requires "no middle ground" if we wish to maintain our gun rights as they stand at present......

The liberals on this board and elsewhere, "would give up some middle ground" as long as "their specific individual" gun rights are not effected......

The "true second amendment partisans" on this board and all over our great land, will not give up one second amendment right as originally ratified in 1791........this is where we differ......as others have said here, not debateable,......."

X2 Well said Doug,especially the "no middle ground" part. Not one inch,no gun, no magazine,no bullet ban nothing is on the table when dealing with the likes of Biden,Obama,Feinstein,Trumka (yes he is on the committee ),Holder and all the other progressive gun grabbers.

I offered a heretical notion concerning turning back governments and grabbers. It's not a debate for me. I flagged giving up principle on slippery slope. Choosing your battles, not dissipating energy and goodwill was directed toward considering what Washington can do arbitrarily (if only as a sop to the ignorant) compared to the conflagration of registration. Tactically and strategically, all warriors engage with "no middle ground"---there is no other way to do it---but use resources where they can win with less losses and popular support.

King, you must be one of the shy ones you spoke of, who only quietly works within their organization, because you still have not given us one specific verifiable thing which led to the demise of your gun registry that we can look upon and emulate.

I read your sage advice and shake my head in wonderment.

"Take every supporter willing to work with you."--- Please name one of the coalition of the willing that I have rejected.

"Don't look to politics or where one disagrees on other matters..."--- So what you're saying here is that King Brown can give political opinions, and disagree on non-gun matters... but Doug, or DaveK, or Jim, or myself, or others should not... because only you are qualified.

Since you have been utilizing your secret successful formula for decades, rational thinking persons must be wondering how the gun registry and other gun control measures in Canada ever took root in the first place. Are you like one of those pool sharks who lets a mark win now and then just so he can beat them handily at a later time?

I read your post in the other thread and replied that we needed you to intervene on our behalf to turn Biden back and make him see the light. Only you seem to have that kind of effective lobbying leadership, and we are falling flat according to you.

I call your formula "secret" because we still don't have one specific thing that you personally did to hang our hat on. Would you compare your stature in the Canadian anti-gun battle to that of Wayne Lapierre, John Lott, Charleton Heston, or just some lumberjack who once called a radio talk show? It sounds as if you may have been on the winning side of a protest over the location of a highway project, but even there, you don't show us anything any more effective that you yourself, though you "unblushingly ran that campaign", did more than any other opposition member who carried a sign or wrote an editorial. But I wasn't asking what you did to stop some highway interchange, was I? I was asking for specifics in the battle to rid Canada of the gun registry. As the old lady in the Wendy's commercials said, "Where's the Beef?"

Once again, you take Doug and I to task, but as I observed, you have never done that with the overt anti-gunners here. I have asked you why that was. Still nothing.

I'm not insulting and shouting, but I am having my doubts. Someone as literate and well read as you surely knows the meaning of "hoist by his own petard." Are you getting my drift?

I been reading this thread on a catch as catch can basis for days as we have an unending stream of visitors and my wife gets miffed when I get on the computer.
Here's the jist of it as far as I can see.
King Brown has informed us all of his considerable experience dealing with the anti's in Canada and played a key role in getting their registry reversed. I would recommend that he get in touch with W. Lapierre the Executive VP for the NRA and present him with those credentials and perhaps Mr LaPierre will enlist him to provide assistance and advice in the upcoming battle we're facing.
However; Since we tend to be proactive and Keith is a life member I am sure he would be more than willing to contact Mr LaPierre, inform him of K. Browns extensive background in opposing firearms restrictions in Canada and give him contact information for K. Brown.
Perhaps, in the meantime, King Brown could take direct action and form a "Canadian Committe to Adopt the 2nd Amendment". This group could immediately get to work in amending the Canadian Constitution to insure the the rest of Canada's oppressive gun laws are abolished.
What say Ye??
Jim

I only have one problem with that suggestion Jim. What if Wayne Lapierre should check Kings' credentials in the fight for Canadian gun rights, and finds nothing? I'm not quite ready to put my foot in my mouth and ruin any future credibility I might have with Mr. LaPierre.

I have no trouble getting your drift. You apparently completely misunderstand my messages. Reading with comprehension is integral to communicate, keith. I made no reference to you rejecting anyone or taken Doug or anyone else to task or all the other nonsense you attributed to me. What I have done at your request is describe how Canadians turned back the registry and offered opinions of what worked better than others.

Not one specific? One is not to use foul language slagging those who have different opinions from yours if you want to recruit warriors to our cause. Two, is to get the shooting sports fraternity on the same page. Three, is for those not comfortable in public combat to work through their various organizations to make Reason prevail. Four, use your neighbour's example where citizens convinced their government that registration was wrong, the result of an overzealous government and populace reacting to a massacre.

The overarching lesson of the Canadian experience---and we're the only country in the world to do what we did---is to diminish confrontation among those who want to win. Then over the barricades to victory. You're a long way from it from the evidence I'm reading here. You'll get there. The USA always gets it right over time.

Why not start with Canada's foreign minister and current Defence Minister who asked for my assistance to beat back gun control a long time ago. I could put in a word with him to take Mr. LaPierre's call.

King, my reading comprehension is just fine. Your first line of advice suggests that where we are mistaken is in not taking on every supporter we can. We are, and we are also trying to motivate more all the time. I'm not preaching to the choir. I'm after fence sitters and those who are reluctant because of public perceptions or misinformation or lulling.

Your second line above is very clear. King Brown can get into unpopular political discussions and give his opinion, as he has a hundred times... the rest of us should play it close to the vest lest we ruffle any feathers.

You say you have not taken Doug or I to task, but your whole previous post was taking me to task and asking what I have done in comparison to the great King Brown. I included the last line of your smug reply to Doug which gave us a glimpse of your son's co-pilot resume, but nothing of yours as pertains to rolling back gun control. I can indeed read and comprehend and interpret meaning. I still have not seen you once correct the incorrect assertions of the "grabbers" on this board. You keep dancing around the questions and diverting the discussion to airplanes and highway projects.

I get it that you have not used any foul language in your dealings with us. I note however that you are often adept at denigrating or insulting without being overt. I always considered that sneaky and disingenuous.

Before I'd contact Wayne Lapierre to recommend he enlist someone willing to give up semi-autos and "clips" in order to forestall any registration, I'd like to hear from that former foreign minister and current defense minister myself. I still haven't seen anything specifically of any great import that you did to reverse the registry, and I'm still questioning how, with your activism and effective tactics, the registry came to be in the first place.

Gotta go, I've been called out to work on some problems.

An exchange of opinions isn't taking a person on nor is it a confrontation in civil affairs.
It may be a whole other thing where differences of opinion make a country unable to manage its affairs. It's not that way where I live.

The analogy of my son's interview should have been clear from the opening sentence to Doug. Persons engage in useful and significant activities every day without sharing the same opinions, as successful anti-grabbers do.

As for "correcting the incorrect on this board"---There it is, keith. See what I mean? I may quibble, differ, offer my opinion respectfully without spite and spleen. Correcting implies I know better, holder of "truths," an arrogance too often displayed here.

No, I have never used foul language on this board. It's usually regarded as a sign of poor vocabulary, at the least. Other members have remarked of being offended by language that gets us shoved off into Misfires, instead of discussing important issues civilly as we try to do here.

My highway example of activism was in reply to suggestion that Biden's access to money and printing presses militates against the those fighting the grabbers. This was a case of the community defeating money, government and business, all politicians.

How did the Canadian registry get to be in the first place? See above today, keith. There it is plain to see. An overzealous government reacting to a massacre. Exactly why Obama is promising "something better" for America today?

I promise to reply to your posts if you read them carefully.

King, I think you meant to say that you'd reply to my posts if I read your posts carefully. I promise you, I do read your posts carefully before I respond. I wish you would read mine as carefully as I do yours.

Your "Aha" moment where you say, "As for 'correcting the incorrect on this board'---There it is, keith. See what I mean. I may quibble, differ, offer my opinion respectfully without spite or spleen. Correcting implies I know better, holder of "truths", an arrogance too often displayed here.", is a perfect example. Can't you see what you just did? This paragraph, and your entire post really, is doing exactly what you accuse me of doing. Why is it OK for you to correct me (and others), implying that I may arrogantly act like I know better than others, while you are doing exactly what you say you don't do. We're right back to the "Do as I say, not as I do" type of preaching that is reserved especially for those of us who are unapologetic pro-gunners. And still, the grabbers on board get a pass. You know, quite often when we debate the grabbers, we really do know better and we provide proof to support our positions. It has been they, who offer only strong opinions on gun control while constantly dismissing the facts when their solutions have been tried and failed. We might be more convinced of your pro-gun activist proclivities if you took them to task one tenth as often as you do us. There is something very strange about that. Is it because they NEVER resort to "spite and spleen"? (That last sentence was sarcasm, just to be clear)

I really laughed when I read your line about how the Canadian gun registry came to be. "An overzealous government reacting to a massacre.", you said. I had asked, "How could this be with you on watch?" Apparently the solutions that work which you've been touting sometimes just aren't enough. But it's OK. Gun-owners and even the NRA itself have made the same mistakes in this country. Mistakes like that can be very costly in terms of both freedom and resources. They are especially costly when we learn nothing from them. Solutions that might get one a promotion or a raise or even turn back a highway project just don't work when the adversary is dishonest and pursuing a premeditated agenda by exploiting grief and tragedy.

Your strategy didn't work when it came to Canadian politicians first implementing the Gun Registry. Why should we think the same stategy would work under similar circumstances here and now?

[quote=King Brown]

"How did the Canadian registry get to be in the first place? See above today, keith. There it is plain to see. An overzealous government reacting to a massacre. Exactly why Obama is promising "something better" for America today?"

And with your skills you could not stop it?? FOR SHAME!!

"I promise to reply to your posts if you read them carefully."

I think YOU need to read them carefully.

As I just said on another thread,IMO, the time for endless semantics is over and it's now time to get to work. Contact you Congressman,write letters to the editor, of your local paper if it isn't a yellow rag like mine. Figure out what YOU can do on a proactive basis to difuse what I see shaping up as a liberal conspiracy to eliminate our 2nd Amendments rights condoned and assissted by the "mainstream news media".
Most important of all keep the rest of us informed of your actions.
Jim

Thank you Dave! We all need to do all we can or this board will just be a memory we can tell our grandchildren about when we talk about " how things used to be"

Hi kids…

Sorry I’ve been AWOL for the last two evenings as we were doing the Basketball “Coaches for Cancer” games at our daughters High School. My better half is the basketball boosters treasurer and rides herd over all activities that involve cash…concessions…50/50…cancer society donations…etc.
The varsity girls played and won last night lead by their spectacular point guard #20 (hint same last name as mine). This evening the boys team lost…No Weber’s on that team as my boys have long since graduated.

In any event the events raised about $1400 for the American Cancer Society which is a good thing.
Now to the matter at hand.

I see “less than civil” discussions abound and lots of eye poking going on in various gun rights threads. Divide and conquer has always been a hallmark of the progressive liberals and I see wedges being driven that make no sense to me. Alas some of you may have gone to the dark side of compromise. Fact is the Constitution of the US gives us all certain rights and we need to protect and re-secure these rights before they are perverted into some shape shifting document the liberals desire to suit their agenda.

I really want to serve the community at large and I will lock all the miscellaneous gun rights threads.

My goal is to consolidate the discussions into a single informational thread and make it a sticky on the main forum (it will be obvious).

If you wish to post informational material about preserving our 2nd Amendment rights please do so in the sticky thread at the top of the page.
Just to reiterate….I’m after informational material that has to do with preserving our rights. I don’t want your opinion about how many rounds a magazine should or should not have…that is irrelevant. If you are a free law abiding, mentally competent, tax paying, hard working citizen in the US; I don’t care how many rounds you can stuff into a magazine, I don’t care if you’re black or white or green or gay or straight or even if you have three arms and a tail. I don’t care what kind of firearm you favor…AR, SxS, pistol, flint lock…it makes no matter to me…Because you’re one of the good guys.

PS - If you want to post a thesis on the swell ideas for chipping away at our rights by imposing more onerous gun controls than we currently have…This might not be a suitable place for your opinion and I will most likely move your thread to mis-fires.

Thank you all for you participation.