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Posted By: patrickwall How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/16/13 01:20 AM
Can anyone tell me if there is a way to date Ugartechea SxSs?
I'm looking at one, but would like to date it and see if Ugartechea went through any period of quality problems. I undertand Spanish guns had a post war period that had some issues.

Here are some pictures










Thanks,
Posted By: Lloyd3 Re: How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/16/13 01:55 AM
I only know a little about this one. For fairly modern guns, each maker has a code assigned to them. Arietta (and Grulla, Ugartechea, AyA, etc.)each use a sequence of numbers beginning with their unique number. Arrieta is 57, so 57-03-12-97 is (I believe) the 3rd gun completed in the 12th month of 1997. (Can anybody take this back to the earlier stuff?)

The post-war period had a little experiment in socialism that caused all the makers to be lumped under one giant consortium, DIARM. This was an unmitigated disaster that blemished the reputation of all their guns for quite a while. I believe that the DIARM stuff was in the 60s & early 70s, but I'm not very solid on that. By the middle 1980s, things had returned to the more traditional English master/apprentice system and better quality returned to their guns. The makers I mentioned above, (plus a few others) make some really good guns that are an eceptional value in a hand-made firearm.
Posted By: skeettx Re: How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/16/13 02:17 AM
These may help some

http://9mmlargo.com/year_codes.htm

My American Arms Derby made by Zabala is a K2
and therefore made in 1991




Does your Uggie have any similar markings?

Mike
Posted By: 2holer Re: How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/16/13 02:22 AM
On the barrel flats you may see S.1 which according to the chart posted would be 1974. I believe the chart is incorrect when it comes to beginning in the late 90s the last two numbers of the serial number is the year of proof.
Posted By: skeettx Re: How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/16/13 02:30 AM
A later made Zabala, in this case a TriStar Brittany is marked like this.
Zabala appears to be #60.

Posted By: skeettx Re: How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/16/13 02:39 AM
WOW!!
Who thought you could have this much fun on a Tuesday night

Took down the American Arms Brittany and it has BOTH types of
1995 markings smile

Posted By: skeettx Re: How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/16/13 02:43 AM
P.S. for you folks who are thinking that these guns are NASTY.
What you are seeing is RIG grease that I use to preserve when guns are at rest.
I had to wipe most off to get pictures smile

http://www.brownells.com/gun-cleaning-ch...42.aspx?ttver=1
Posted By: patrickwall Re: How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/16/13 02:44 AM
Gents,

Thanks for the assistance so far. I added photos on the original post, but I don't have any pics of the barrel flats, so I'm a bit out of luck with that. The marks on the action seem older that what are on SkeetTx's - at least in how they are stamped.

r/
Posted By: 2holer Re: How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/16/13 03:49 AM
Ugartecheas as are many Spanish guns are specific model engraving. Your gun appears to be the model 1030. A new 1030 today sells for about 10k.

http://www.ugartecheashotguns.com/web_ingles.htm
Posted By: Hoof Re: How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/16/13 04:47 AM
I have a very similar gun.



Mine dates to 1951, and other than having cocking indicators looks quite like what you have pictured. Chopper lump barrels, stocked to the fences, intercepting sears, sculpted iron on a beavertail forend, seems like a nice gun.

I did a fair amount of research before and after buying mine, and what I read was that the firing pins are the "weak link." My own personal experience has shown that to be the case (at least with my gun). It is currently with Cole Haugh getting new pins fitted. When I received it the gun miss-fired on the right barrel with certain ammo. Not only was the pin a little short on that side, but it was also sloppy in its bore. I don't know if the pins were bad from new, or if the pins were just sloppy fit or "off the shelf" replacements.

I welded up the firing pin temporarily and used the gun for this whole bird season. The gun handles nicely, and doesn't feel as heavy as it should (if that makes any sense). Nice strong ejectors. There seems to be a fair amount of wood to metal contact at the head of the stock, it doesn't look as "fragile" as the other sidelocks I have had apart.

I was never able to nail down an exact model designation, but if someone wants to send me half the 10k quote for a new 1030 the gun is yours!

CHAZ
Posted By: L. Brown Re: How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/16/13 02:40 PM
Patrick, you can tell by the serial number that your gun is pre-1995. Otherwise, it would look like the SN on skeettx's guns. Yours will have the letter-number date code on the barrel flats. I have an Ugartechea boxlock from 1990 (Bill Hanus Birdgun), and the marks on the watertable of my gun are very different than yours. Mine also has a serial number of 193xxx. Unless Ugartechea used different SN series for different types of guns--which is entirely possible--the difference in SN (some 150,000 numbers) would seem to indicate that yours is pretty old.

From some information I have, it looks as if the Spanish retained the old date codes until 2000, which should mean that any Spanish gun made from 1995-2000 would have both the new and the old date codes, like skeettx's. Can others with Spanish guns from that time period confirm that?
Posted By: Wild Skies Re: How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/16/13 04:50 PM
patrickwall, the gun you're looking at appears to have been built in the early 1960's. In Wieland's Spanish Best, Ugartechea's S/N's show 1960: 39,990 and jumps to 1965: 50,702.

Lloyd3, your gun 57 03 12 97 was actually the 12th gun built in 1997. 57 is the maker's ID and the 03 signifies it's a shotgun.

Larry, it appears that you're correct as usual smile an Arrieta I have that was built in 1996 bares both codes and another Arrieta I have, built in 2007, only has the build year as part of the S/N and is sans the date code on the barrel flats.
Posted By: Lloyd3 Re: How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/16/13 06:16 PM
Thank you, Wild Skies. I've owned several Spanish guns and can't fault them for function and value, but I fear I haven't peered as deeply into their past as I have with the English and American stuff. Wieland's book is the only reference I've used on the subject and it's obviously been awhile since I've opened it.

Well now, it looks as though I've been promoted to Sidelock with a smiley face and lots of stars. How does that work?
Posted By: Kyrie Re: How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/16/13 09:07 PM
Originally Posted By: Lloyd3
--- snip ---
The post-war period had a little experiment in socialism that caused all the makers to be lumped under one giant consortium, DIARM. This was an unmitigated disaster that blemished the reputation of all their guns for quite a while. I believe that the DIARM stuff was in the 60s & early 70s, but I'm not very solid on that. By the middle 1980s, things had returned to the more traditional English master/apprentice system and better quality returned to their guns. The makers I mentioned above, (plus a few others) make some really good guns that are an eceptional value in a hand-made firearm.


Purely FYI.

DIARM began in 1984 and was effectively a dead issue in 1988. It was an attempt to save the shotgun making industry in Spain, was completely voluntary, had the financial backing of the Spanish government, and was a complete failure. The gun makers who joined DIARM all went out of business in order to join DIARM.

After the failure of DIARM some of the former DIARM partners bought the AyA name and restarted AyA, but the pre- DIARM AyA and post- DIARM AyA are two different companies. Some of the people who had been Sarriugarte before Sarriugarte closed its doors to join DIARM started a new company; Keman.

All of the Spanish gun makers could and did make very high quality guns, and gun making skill was not limited to Grulla, Arrieta, AyA, Garbi, and Ugartechea. The best value in Spanish shotguns are generally found in the guns of the little known and unknown gun makers. Here is an example:












That’s a Vuida e Hijos de Francisco Arizaga (Widow and Sons of Francisco Arizaga). The gun is a two barrel set, with original traveling case, for which I paid 1500 Euro.
Posted By: Kyrie Re: How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/16/13 09:14 PM
Originally Posted By: 2holer
Ugartecheas as are many Spanish guns are specific model engraving. Your gun appears to be the model 1030. A new 1030 today sells for about 10k.

http://www.ugartecheashotguns.com/web_ingles.htm


Errr….

You’ll want to be a little careful with this. Spanish gun makers sell custom order guns. They will put any engraving pattern a customer wants on any model of gun the customer orders. Just because a gun has the engraving pattern shown on ‘Model A’ in a catalog doesn’t mean the gun is a Model A.
Posted By: Adam Stinson Re: How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/16/13 09:58 PM
I'd have to disagee about that gun being a 1030. The layout of the engraving is similar but that's where the similarities end. The quality of the engraving and gun overall doesn't match the 1030. Plus, the 1030 features archaded fences which the gun above doesn't have. Nor does that gun have drop points.... which 1030 does have.


HERE IS A MODEL 1030. Similar in appearance but 2 different guns.
Posted By: Kyrie Re: How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/16/13 10:57 PM
This is a case in point of the dangers of trying to determine model purely by engraving. The current Ugartechea catalog shows the model 1030 with arcaded fences. Older catalogs show the 1030 without arcaded fences. One Ugartechea catalog shows the exact engraving on the gun you identify at as model 1030 on a model 100.

Here's another example. Based on engraving, what model is this Ugartechea? I'll give a hint; it's not a model 116.

Posted By: Lloyd3 Re: How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/16/13 11:54 PM
Kyrie: Appreciate the DIARM info, and yes, lots of talented gunmakers in Spain. The only reason I mentioned the makers I did is because they are more of a "known entity" in that they've been around for a while now and have pretty good track records that they strive to protect. The "one-off" guns can still be lovely, but the market for them is frought with peril for the uninitiated.
Posted By: patrickwall Re: How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/17/13 12:10 AM
Adam,

Is that gun yours? You sure do have some NICE guns - and quite a variety. I'm jealous of your opportunity to use them so much more than I can use mine.
Posted By: Adam Stinson Re: How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/17/13 02:15 AM
Originally Posted By: patrickwall
Adam,

Is that gun yours? You sure do have some NICE guns - and quite a variety. I'm jealous of your opportunity to use them so much more than I can use mine.


Patrick, it is not mine. I don't own a 1030. Though I had a chance to buy one (actaully several... it was a 5-gun set) a couple years ago for a VERY good price. I foolishly passed. I think Greg (gjw) bought one of the guns I am referring to.

Adam
Posted By: gjw Re: How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/17/13 02:28 AM
Originally Posted By: Adam Stinson
Originally Posted By: patrickwall
Adam,

Is that gun yours? You sure do have some NICE guns - and quite a variety. I'm jealous of your opportunity to use them so much more than I can use mine.


Patrick, it is not mine. I don't own a 1030. Though I had a chance to buy one (actaully several... it was a 5-gun set) a couple years ago for a VERY good price. I foolishly passed. I think Greg (gjw) bought one of the guns I am referring to.

Adam


Hi all, Adam is right, I bought the 16ga 1030 (mine is gun number 2 of a 5 gun set) he's referring to. I got it at a very good price. The reasons why the price was so good on mine, is there was an issue with the stock finish (cosmetic only). Also the bbls were hot blued, but as the bbls are brazed the ribs are just fine (had them checked out by a pro BTW). The LOP is 14 1/4" and the bbls are 26". Some may not like the LOP or bbl length, but for me it's about perfect.

The gun has functioned just fine and has accounted for quite a few birds.



For me, I think I got a good one!

Best!

Greg
Posted By: patrickwall Re: How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/17/13 05:09 AM
Thanks to Wild Skies for dating the gun - I'll need to get Weiland's Spanish book. I have the English gun one and really like it.

If the DIARM came and went in the 1980's, can I assume Ugartechea's guns from the 1960's are good guality - no QC problems?

From what I've seen on the posts, that's correct - I'm just verifing what I believe to be true.

Thanks again for the help and the great pics of spanish guns.

R/
Posted By: Hoof Re: How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/17/13 05:36 AM
Sorry, nothing really to add, just dropping off another pic.

Good luck with the gun.

CHAZ

Posted By: L. Brown Re: How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/17/13 01:21 PM
Originally Posted By: Kyrie



That’s a Vuida e Hijos de Francisco Arizaga (Widow and Sons of Francisco Arizaga). The gun is a two barrel set, with original traveling case, for which I paid 1500 Euro.


Kyrie, the late Jack O'Connor gave Arizaga some pretty good publicity in his "Shotgun Book"--although he also indicated problems one might encounter with Spanish guns in general of that era (a couple decades prior to Diarm).

Re the photo in the post above . . . always good to exercise caution when laying your shotgun on dead birds. Blood is bad for metal. Don't ask me how I know that. smile
Posted By: 2holer Re: How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/17/13 04:17 PM
Adam, you are correct. I failed to note the absense of drop points. Some of the present day models back in the 50s had sideclips.

Added note; Ugartechea was smart enough to stay out of DIARM as was Garbi, Grulla, Arrieta and Arizabalaga.
Posted By: Hoof Re: How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/17/13 05:18 PM
I also just got this Uggie sidelock which dates to 1955. I think it is interesting to note the similarities, as well as differences between the two guns. This is a low buck "Bufalo" model, and it lacks the intercepting sears of my other gun (although the holes are still in the sideplates, just filled by screws).
CHAZ
Posted By: Kyrie Re: How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/17/13 06:15 PM
Originally Posted By: patrickwall

--- snip ---
If the DIARM came and went in the 1980's, can I assume Ugartechea's guns from the 1960's are good guality - no QC problems?
--- snip ---


All the Spanish shotgun makers, including Ignacio Ugartechea and DIARM, produced excellent quality guns. And all shotgun makers (Spanish, English, Belgian, German, etc.) occasionally have canine carnal knowledge of a gun they make. We’re no more likely to get a bad high end gun from one maker than from any other maker – regardless of nationality.

That said, there are several nice things to be said for buying a Spanish gun made in the 1960s. One of these nice things is any problems it might have had have long since been dealt with. Another nice thing is the 1960s is in that period of time when Spanish gun making had reached a peak of cost/value. A high end Ugartechea from the 1960s has a lot more skilled hand labor in it than the same gun made today.

As an aside, and entirely FWIW, the engraving on your gun is similar to that found on the Model 100 and model 119 during the 1940s – 1960s.
Posted By: Kyrie Re: How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/17/13 06:27 PM
Originally Posted By: L. Brown

Kyrie, the late Jack O'Connor gave Arizaga some pretty good publicity in his "Shotgun Book"--


I just ordered a copy of the book :-)

Do you happen to recall which Arizaga O’Conner mentioned? I can think of four different gun makers by the name of Arizaga. Common names are one of the problems with Spanish shotguns (insert perplexed look here).

More eye candy:

Martin Ugarteburu, model 115:



Jose Luis Urbiola:



Horizon Model 700 SLE (‘Horizon’, maker mark ‘HOR’, is a relatively little known name/mark used by Garbi):

Posted By: L. Brown Re: How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/17/13 10:07 PM
Kyrie, you're right: different Arizaga. (With the reduced number of Spanish makers still in business today, we don't have the problems that continue to exist in Italy, although there aren't as many different Rizzinis putting their names on guns as there were a few years ago.) O'Connor was referring to Esubio Arizaga. He bought a 28 with a single trigger that gave him some problems, but he liked it well enough that he ordered a 20--with a single trigger that doubled even more often, which he finally had replaced with a Miller. He suggests buying Spanish guns with double triggers, and that's certainly the trend on current imports. But other than that, he has very good things to say about the guns.

Re Spanish guns and single triggers, I've usually avoided them as well. But my Ugartechea-made Hanus Bird Gun has one, mechanical, and it's been 100% reliable--both on quite a few grouse and woodcock hunts and several rounds of skeet.
Posted By: 2holer Re: How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/17/13 10:48 PM
I think by the 80s reputable Spanish makers single triggers were up to snuff. Although, I have one Spanish made in 66 and another made in 71 with STs and no problems.
Posted By: patrickwall Re: How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/17/13 10:54 PM
I greatly appreciate all of the comments. I've been able to learn about British, German, and Japanese guns here, and now I'm learning about Spanish - which I've been gaining some interest in.

How does Ugartechea rate with the other high end spanish makers?
Posted By: Adam Stinson Re: How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/18/13 12:04 AM
Patrick,

Ugartechea, like many of the Spanish makers, built a wide range of guns... from affordable, utilitarian pieces up to best quality. Ugartechea can build guns that compare to the best of AYA, Grulla, Arrizabalaga, etc but their reputation has been gained primarily in the more entry-level boxlocks (like those available from Lion Country Supply). Ugartechea's line-up, both in boxlocks and sidelocks, probably offer the most bang for your buck in the Spanish gun trade.

Adam
Posted By: Kyrie Re: How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/18/13 12:37 AM
Originally Posted By: patrickwall

How does Ugartechea rate with the other high end spanish makers?


If by ‘high end maker’ we mean makers who make only highest price point guns, then the list is very small. Pedro Arrizabalaga would be on that list. There may be a half dozen other small, unknown, makers that would qualify.

OTOH, if we use ‘high end maker’ to indicate a maker who does make high end guns, even if they don’t exclusively make high end guns, then Ugartechea, Grulla, AyA, Garbi, and Arrieta would be on the list. At the high end, all these makers make pretty much the same guns.

That said, people tend to look down a bit on both Ugartechea and AyA, because both makers produce box lock guns in addition to side lock guns. That seems a little short sighted to me, but the attitude exists.
Posted By: Kyrie Re: How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/18/13 12:42 AM
Patrick,

I may be inciting to riot, but while looking at Spanish shotguns you might also look at Spanish double rifles. I’ve been very tempted to have one of the makers do me up a double rifle in either 7x65R or 9.3x62. So far common sense has prevailed, as I truly have no use for a double rifle.

Ah, but the temptation is there…
Posted By: patrickwall Re: How to date an Ugartechea SxS - 01/18/13 02:42 AM
Kyrie, thanks for the recommendation. If I ever see any double rifle here in Japan, I'll snap it up, but rifles are not nearly as plentiful as shotguns - Japanese must have 10 years of safe and proficient use with a shotgun before they can apply to own a rifle (It can take six months to get a gun permit and another 6 months to get a hunting permit - and about $400-$600 each). Since most Japanese shotgun owners are a bit older to start with, getting a rifle is not very common. I have got a rifle here, but have never seen a double on. Thanks again for te comments on Ugartechea.
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