Good Morning All!

I am in need of some "dutch uncle" advice and direction.

I've been fortunate to collect and shoot some very lovely guns over the last several years. ( 2 Grant Sidelevers, Charles Boswell Sidlock, Purdey Pigeon 2 barrel set etc. Boswel and Grants are 2 1/2" chambers, Purdey is 2/3/4".)

Purdey is used for weekly sporting clays and others are used monthly on the skeet range. All see occassional dove and preserve pheasant hunts Sept.- March.

I use RST shells for most purposes and enjoy shooting S x S's and the history of each.

Question: Am I throwing good money after bad buying 2 1/2" chambered guns ?

I rarely sell guns and suppose the problem of value would fall to my wife on my passing. ( hopefully many years from now ).

Many of the fine guns I look at are chambered in 2 1/2 ".
( There is a gorgeous Westley on Fox Hill's site now ! )

I have no expertise, but enjoy owning fine guns made by skilled artisans.

Thoughts ?

The quality of the gun drives the price more than the chamber length. If you buy a good make and model of gun in good condition and care for it by shooting the right size ammo and not needlessly modifying them you are ok.

I do not believe guns are investments, so don't count on making money. When sold from estates they are often sold at less than a premium, so it is important to educate your agent the best ways to sell for best money and the need for some paitence for price.

My course of action has been to reduce the number of guns I own and increase the quality. One day I will be at three or four good guns to pass on, but I am not there yet and probably never will be.

My son may or may not continue to hold on to my guns, his children (if there end up being any) who knows.

I am in the UK, where these guns were built and where 2 1/2" cartridges are still (if not the norm) widely available.

My view firstly is that NO - you are not 'wasting money'. They are lovely guns - and 2 1/2 is how they were made.

I would use the guns as much as you like - but personally I would use (and do use in my old guns) 2 1/2" suitably light cartridges.

Here in the UK (and many will disagree with this view) the guidelines from the proof houses (and as far as I know all UK gunsmiths) are NOT to use 2 3/4 cartridges in a 2 1/2" chamber. I follow this advice.

My view is continue to collect, enjoy and use your guns, but follow the gunmakers/proofhouse recommendations on cartridge length and load. I use 21 gramme 12 bore loads in 2 1/2 inch felt/fibre wad cases.

I think you asked this same question back in October of 2012....?......The 6 pages of answers (opinions) would probably still be the same.....?.....

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...6949#Post296949

Hello Teeny,

I would think you already answered your question twofold:

"I... enjoy shooting shooting SxS's and the history of each."
"I... enjoy owning fine guns made by skilled artisans."

I understand the above are the main motivations for your purchases and not just
a profitable financial investment for your/your wife's future.

Keep on enjoying them, that is the main return on your investment!

JC

P.S.: some pictures of them would be appreciated, jc

Correct.

Thread was more focused on loads, proof and chamber length rather than value of guns based on chamber length.

Very helpful at the time. My concern was buying more guns with 2 1/2" chambers.

Thanks for your help.

Teeny,

I don't think any of the short chamber guns lose anything in value over their long chamber brothers, maker for maker, if that is your question........

I believe condition, condition and condition sell guns more than anything else......"as long as the price is where it should be in the buyer's eye"........JMO.........

I think everybody pretty much buys what they fancy and always looks for nice examples of those guns.......

Best,

I would be feeling blessed to have those guns and purchasing 2 1/2" shells would not concern me.
Some of my shooting buddies have been purchaseing the B&P Comp1 shells to shoot in their old doubles. One guy has a Purdey hammer gun in 2 1/2" chambers and he did the research and they meet the required chamber pressure. So he shoots them fine.
I recently just traded away a couple of English sidelocks and purchased a Purdey and an Atkin. Just so happens they are both 2 3/4" chambers. I would have bought them anyway even with the short chambers because they are both fine Best London guns.
So my opinion, in your afterlife when your wife decides to sell the person who will be buying them will be just as informed as you were (or not) and I am sure he will not have a problem have the chambers lengthened to 2 3/4" down at Joe's gunshop and gunsmithing.
Just hope she gets what they are worth.

Shooting is a sport. Collecting guns is a hobby. Not much money in either for most of us as both are recreational pursuits. Look at it as therapy from your normal hectic work day. That's how I explain it to my wife. See says she needs to go to Mexico, I say I need to buy another shotgun. We go to Mexico and I buy another shotgun. See how easy that was. Has absolutely nothing to do with chamber length. Jim

If I am in the market for British guns, and I often am, I think I would rather have the traditional 2 1/2" gun. I know I would rather have it than one that has had its chambers lengthened. Thinking further, I guess that I have no 2 3/4" guns at all, so it would make zero difference to me if I were to buy them from your wife at some much later date. Prolly won't be around to buy them but you get the idea....I like 2 1/2" guns and all the Brit gun enthusiasts I know do as well.

Thanks to all for your expertise and guidance !

I hate to be disagreeable, but...I think that 2-1/2 inch shells are pretty tough to find. Nobody uses them shooting at any type of clays (probably the only place of growth in shooting sports). If holding value (forget increasing value) is important, these obsolete and hard to get guns have to be losers, just as rifles shooting weird, hard to get continental bullets are losers. It is similar to guns with 26 inch or shorter barrels; they used to be the norm; they aren't any longer and they pay for it in the market. They work fine and if you like them, fine; just don't expect that they will be a decent investment or will be easy to unload, as I believe the 2-1/2 shells will be a (big) negative.

The only issue WAS factory loads of proper shot chrge and pressure, reload data for proper loads, and the reasonably available/widespread knowledge as to what was proper for 2 1/2" chambers. These things are now solved. If a potential buyer balks at the 2 1/2" chambers, he/she is ignorant and you need to educate or is trying to gouge you. There are plenty of buyers out there now who have been educated.

DDA

Hos,

I shoot nothing but 2.5 inch shells and I like them so much that I shoot them in the two odd ball 2.75 inch chambered guns that share safe space with the 2.5s.

I have been buying them for more than a decade from B&P and for about 5 years from RST. The B&Ps are less expensive and I think a better product.

It is true that while on the road 2.5 may be hard to find, but I take ammo with me just as I do dog food, water and meds that I use and don't want to switch from when hunting away from home.

To answer the original poster, it has been my experience that there are far more really nice 2.5 chambered SxSs to buy than equally nice 2.75 inch guns and thus I look for the 2.5 inch chamber guns.

I agree, 2.5" are all I load, all three of my shotshell presses are set with short kits......I much prefer the original short chambered guns and will not buy any gun where some fool ground out the chambers or forcing cones.....

In my modern 2.75" guns, like the Dickinson's , Beretta's etc., I shoot factory ammo sometimes, but even with them the 2.5" pet handloads work just fine and are preferred.......

I think you will find most of the original 2.5" chambered guns for sale have had far less abuse than the 2.75" chambered counterparts out there, especially the altered ones.......reasons are obvious.........

JohnfromUK and others on this BBS have said they use fibre wads. Is that because the UK requires them to avoid litter on the shooting grounds (since they decay), or is there some safety or superior function motivation? I assume 90%+ of the shells available in the US have plastic wads/shot cups.

Agree with Rocketman that there is no longer any prejudice against 2 1/2" guns in the States, at least not among knowledgeable doublegun fans. If you attend any of the big side by side shoots, you'll likely see more old, short-chambered guns than modern ones. And all kinds of people shooting 2 1/2" shells. In fact, a fine British or European double that has had its chambers lengthened from 2 1/2" to 2 3/4" without proper reproof is the gun that will suffer in value upon resale.

Re what the Brits shoot . . . it's not quite as clear as "only 2 1/2" shells in 2 1/2" guns". 67/67.5MM shells approved for use in 2 1/2" guns, and so marked on the cartridge boxes, are quite common in the UK and Europe. Some of these shells have a fired length as long as some of our nominal 2 3/4" shells (depends on which of theirs compared to which of ours). It's not the case length that's the major factor, but rather the load: pressure, shot charge, velocity.

While some early British 12 ga guns proably did have 2½ chambers W W Greener stated at least as early as his 9th addition that the normal "Actual" length of a British nominal 2½" 12 ga chamber varied from 2 9/16" (65mm) to 2 5/8" (67mmm). I do not have actuals for smaller gauges. 65mm was the basic standard for European guns of the normal gauges. In the early US guns 2 5/8 was a common 12ga size, 2 9/16" for 16ga & 2½" for 20ga.
2 3/4" 12ga was also quite common in the US as well. All early 12ga guns with 2 3/4" chambers have not been subjected to a chamber lengthening. I own a 16ga Lefever having 3" chambers, most likely original.

I hate to be stubborn, but the original question was "what effect do 2-1/2 inch chambers have on the resale value of a gun?" It may be true that one can reload 2-1/2 inch shells. It may be true that 2-1/2 inch shells can be purchased, though not easily and not cheaply. It may be true that most of the people who post on this board think that 2-1/2 inch shells are great. That group encompasses maybe a few hundred shooters; add in all subscribers to upscale shooting magazines and the group is maybe a couple of thousand people (assuming that they all share this belief--unlikely). That would constitute a microscopic proportion of the shotgunning public and even a tiny proportion of potential customers for fine shotguns. So the potential market for a 2-1/2 inch chambered gun consists of those persons who reload or who don't mind paying an exorbitant price for shells when they find them and who post on these and similar boards. Unless the law of supply and demand has been repealed in this instance, I really think this must affect the value and marketability of 2-1/2 inch guns. By the way, I wonder if Purdey, H&H, etc. even make 2-1/2 inch guns any more; if they do, I bet it is a very small percentage of their total production.

On most of the driven shoots I attend it is usual for guns to use fibre wadded game cartridges. Many shoot owners make it a requirement for environmental reasons. In the same way, the majority of driven shoots now ask us to collect our 'empties' (fired shells) at the end of each drive or to leave them piled at the peg for someone to gather up. As I am sure most of us are aware, plastic wads (shot cups) take a good long while to degrade in the open. In fields used for grazing plastic wads are especially unwelcome.

On the other hand, most of us also realise that plastic wads give superior ballistic performance these days. On clay shooting grounds plastic dominates.

These are one of the most popular game cartridges in the UK for best guns: http://www.lyalvaleexpress.com/supreme-game-fibre-28-grams.

Tim

How much for a box of those fiber wad shells?

Also, how much for a box of garden variety plastic 12 gauge (and other gauges for that matter) shells in the UK?

Hos, I think your analysis of those who use 2 1/2" shells might be correct but then you conflate that group with the entire shotgun world. Doubles chambered for 2 1/2 inch shells appeal to a relatively small group, yes. Those are the people who buy these guns, not the rest of the shotgunners who might use pumps or autoloaders, and those are the same people who determine the "value" of these guns. The market for guns chambered for 2 1/2-inch shells exists independent of the rest of the market. It's sort of irrelevant what the vast majority of shotgun owners shoot - they don't at the present time have an effect on the 2 1/2-inch market nor will they in future.

Also, I do not think (just my opinion) that 2 1/2-inch shells are exorbitantly priced - they are a just bit more than comparable quality 2 3/4-inch shells.

I think that Gnomon has addressed rather well why 2.5 inch chambers in a SxS, particularly vintage SxSs do not negatively affect their value or their resale market.

And I do not disagree with him on the costs of 2.5 inch shells not being exorbitantly priced.

B&P's High Pheasant loads, which are a wonderful and deadly low pressure hunting load, sell for less than 12 bucks a box. Few premium 2.75 loads comparable in quality, can be had for under 15 bucks a box.

Actually, what I wrote was "That would constitute a microscopic proportion of the shotgunning public and even a tiny proportion of potential customers for fine shotguns." What I meant by "fine shotguns" was not autoloaders and pumps (though, to be honest, I love to shoot pumps). What I meant was S/Ss and O/Us (mostly the latter) with starting prices, more or less, in the $3-5,000 range and going up from there. The only real growth in shotgun sports is sporting clays and similar games where O/Us (Perazzi, Krieghoff etc.)dominate, whereas the interest in shooting (really) old guns is confined to a small, insular group that, without meaning too morbid, is getting older and smaller. Going back to the original question of marketability and leaving aside aesthetics, sentimentality etc., I believe that I would rather be selling an item into a market that is relatively large and growing, as opposed to a relatively small and shrinking market.

You have stated a well thought answer with great articulation, but it does not really address the original posters question, which I have placed in bold type.

quote=teeny350]Good Morning All!

I am in need of some "dutch uncle" advice and direction.

I've been fortunate to collect and shoot some very lovely guns over the last several years. ( 2 Grant Sidelevers, Charles Boswell Sidlock, Purdey Pigeon 2 barrel set etc. Boswel and Grants are 2 1/2" chambers, Purdey is 2/3/4".)


I use RST shells for most purposes and enjoy shooting S x S's and the history of each.

Question: [b]Am I throwing good money after bad buying 2 1/2" chambered guns ?I rarely sell guns and suppose the problem of value would fall to my wife on my passing. ( hopefully many years from now ).[/b]

While his question does not specifically state a concern about buying more SxSs such as he has, he gave a bit of insight to us about what he is most likely to buy before he asked the question. Or at least I think that he did.

I am not sure what you mean. Here is what he said in a subsequent post, responding to another poster's mention that he had previously asked the same question: "Thread was more focused on loads, proof and chamber length rather than value of guns based on chamber length.

Very helpful at the time. My concern was buying more guns with 2 1/2" chambers.

Thanks for your help." I think that his question and other posters' views in this thread go to the relative marketability of 2-1/2 vs. 2-3/4 inch guns; i.e., are they more difficult to sell or is a discount atttached to them upon sale? My views are set forth above. It would be interesting to hear the (honest)views of a premium gun dealer, though I suspect those views might, just might, be colored by whether he is buying or selling the 2-1/2 inch gun in question and what is currently in his inventory. Best regards.

I have just purchased 1000 Lyalvale Express cartridges for 65mm min chamber 32 gms fibre wad No. 5 shot for £273.30.
I am not sure what this would convert to in $

Bob

$431.71

$10.79 per box of 25

I think we are talking apples and oranges here.
I belong to both groups. I have a Beretta O/U to shoot clays with off the shelf $5/box of 25 (on sale) target loads.
I collect antiques guns where the value is decreased if they have been "messed with" such as having been rechambered. I shoot those guns with either RST shells at about $10/box of 25 or reloaded RST shells which cost about $4.50 to reload (not counting my labor).
Yes, the modern shooters vastly outnumber the serious collectors. However, they, like me, are not necessarily mutally exclusive.
Several days hunting with RCC with a 2 5/8 inch Lefever using RST shells cost less than the hamburgers I had for lunch. I certainly don't believe that rechambering the A grade Lefever I was using would add to it's value, rather I feel that it would seriously lower its value. The number of people interested in buying a gun like that for what it is worth probably numbers in the hundreds, while the numbers buying over/under modern chambered Berettas and the like number in the millions.

I don't believe that anyone has suggested that lengthening chambers increases the value of guns (though it may if the gun is reproofed and no doubt has when undetected). The only question is whether, assuming that two guns are identical in all respects, maker, age, condition, gauge etc., except that one is a 2-1/2 inch gun and the other is 2-3/4, will they sell as easily and for the same price; i.e., be as marketable? If you were in the market for, say, a 1935 Purdey game gun, rose and scroll engraving, in original, not "messed with" condition, and were willing to pay tens of thousands of dollars for it, would you rather have it with 2-1/2" or 2-3/4" chambers?

Presented to that segment of the market that would be potential Purdey buyers, I don't think the buyers would be moved one way or the other by the chamber length. Nor do I believe the sellers would be bullish on the price of one chamber length over the other.

A ''messed with'' '35 Purdey chambered for 2.75-inch loads will still have the user searching for loads that are not going to be found in most U.S. stores. So, makes no difference.

In the types of guns we are generally speaking of here, upper crust British guns, those with 2½" chambers vs those with 2 3/4 chambers will not usually be "Otherwise Identical". The 2½" guns will be lightweight Game Guns, while the 2 3/4" ones will be heavier wt pigeon, trap or wildfowl guns. Which of these a man would pay the premium for would depend more on the type he was seeking, not on the actual chamber length. If he were seeking a light fast handling grouse gun for instance he would not pay a premium for a heavy gun in order to get the 2 3/4" chambers. He might just pay a premium to get a slick little 2" chambered gun.

Why do you ask?

1. We are not talking only about upper crust English guns. I think that we are talking about fine guns; i. e., spending a lot of money on guns. 2. That said, i don't think that we are talking about whether spending money on guns is a good investment, as in making money. I think that what we are talking about is whether it is foolish to pay a lot of money for 2 1/2 inch guns and if there is a discount on the eventual sale of such guns, assuming that you are not going to be buried with them. 3. While there are various factors that play into the value of 21/2 inch guns, such as availability and cost of shells, that is not the focus of this discussion, nor are the aesthetics, history, or wonderfulness of 2 1/2 inch guns. 4. By the way, Guns that are chambered for normal, modern 2 3/4 inch shells are not necessarily heavy or slow. 5. If guns chambered for 2 1/2 inch shells are so wonderful, how come nobody has been building them for the past 40 or 50 years? I would love to know what proportion 2 1/2 inch guns constitute of fine gun production. Maybe 5 percent of English gun production (much of which is really produced elsewhere) and 0 percent of other ffine gun production.Possibly it has to do with marketability. 6. Does nobody here check out auction prices? Dealers' asking prices? 6.If speedy game guns are so swell, how come nobody wants 26 inch ( or less) barreled guns any more? It wasn't so long ago (OK, maybe 35 or so years ago) that I unloaded a fairly high grade Parker because it had 30 inch barrels). 7. That's it. I quit on this string. Now if somebody would like to start a string on the value and marketability of O/Us vs. SSs....

Fascinating conversation

I agree the segment of the market that desires old doubleguns is a thin one and maybe aging. That said I think the negative effect of decling size and potential interest is on the low end of the doublegun market and not on the high end.

I believe that higher quality guns are just that and will hold their value. Value in high end guns is not an instant thing and in the past and still today you cannot expect a quick sale at a top price. Quick sales are usually at a discount (Loss).

The field grade market for old doubles is not one I would recommend unless one is searching for a shooter to beat about. They are not investments. For that matter I do not see guns as an investments at all. Stick to mutual funds or land to increase you finances. That said you will lose more on a field grade than high grade. Remember money on guns is usually made on the purchase, not the sale.

Reference 2.5 inch chambers and their effect on value. Yes they are harder to sell than a 2.75 inch gun all other things being equal. That said the people who buy quality old doubleguns are not much put off by one chamber length than the other. As others have put it before me on this thread they are not a magnificantly large group.

Before one plunges headfirst into a discussion of whether a "fine gun" is worth more when chambered at 2 1/2" vs 2 3/4", it would contribute more to an intelligent discussion if the poster were to recognize that the question does not begin and end only with chamber length. Here's why:

Let's assume that the fine Purdey in question was made relatively recently, say during the 1990's. Made for a UK buyer, chambered at 2 3/4", and proofed at the then-CIP standard of 850 bars. Well, if someone on this side of the pond were to buy that gun used, those 2 3/4" chambers and modern proof would not mean that the new American buyer could then go out and start feeding that gun standard American factory ammo--which is, I think following HOS' logic, the reason such a gun should be more valuable than a 2 1/2" gun. Per the Birmingham Proofhouse, service pressure for an 850 bar proof gun works out to a bit less than 10,800 psi, as we measure pressure in this country. The SAAMI standard for 12ga service pressure on American factory ammo is 11,500 psi--which means that the new American owner of that relatively new and modern proof Purdey with 2 3/4" chambers wouldn't be gaining anything based only on chamber length, because American factory ammo would still be too hot for the gun in question.

If an American buyer had gone to Purdey in the 90's and asked them to build him a game gun in which he intended to shoot 2 3/4" American factory loads, they would have built that gun as a 1200 bar "magnum proof"--and, as such, it would have been heavier than the same gun built standard proof, even if both had 2 3/4" chambers. So chamber length in and of itself, even if we're talking about modern British best guns, isn't where the story starts and ends. Both Major Burrard and Gough Thomas stated that it was perfectly fine to shoot British "standard" 2 3/4" shells in guns with 2 1/2" chambers. The problem came when people wanted to shoot American "standard" 2 3/4" shells in 2 1/2" chambers--or, for that matter, in "standard proof" British guns with 2 3/4" chambers.

So we reach the conclusion that the only advantage 2 3/4" chambers have in a fine British gun is if the gun is also given what was previously a 1200 bar "magnum proof" (now called a superior proof)--if the buyer's desire is to shoot American 2 3/4" shells in the gun. Otherwise, longer chambers not only provide no advantage over a 2 1/2" gun, but may--if the owner doesn't know what he's doing--lead him to expose the gun to service pressures higher than those for which it was designed.

Well said, Larry. Your comments are exactly on target for this well worn subject.

Well said, indeed. By the way, I have a 60's era Westley marked 3-1/4 tons per square (it is actully a square, not the word) inch. Where does that fit in?

This has been a rather enjoyable thread for me. I always enjoy civil and well expressed thoughts and often, certainly in this case, I learn something new.

Where does HOS's Westley fit into the proof scenario?

Hi all, very interesting thread indeed!! I enjoyed all the various ideas and thoughts on this subject.

I do think that COL Brown has hit the nail on the head. In the "old" days when Brit guns were first started to be imported here in numbers, 2 1/2" loads were not common at all, in fact rare. Many owners and importers for that matter did let chambers out to 2 3/4" for our market. At that time British proof was either ignored or not understood by and large.. Thus chambers were let out and our ammo used. The results were mixed of course, some guns could and did withstand our higher pressures, others did not fair so well.

Then, thanks to forums like this one and publications like the DG Journal we got wiser and more informed. Also, 2 1/2" became more common and we found out that they work just as well and sometimes better than our "standard" American loads. It seems like it just took time to overcome our "bigger is better" with regards to Brit guns. Still we Americans do fall into the "Bigger is Better" high velocity hype with autos and pumps when it comes to hunting loads. But at least we know better now about there use in Brit guns.

The 3 1/4 Tons PSI is the standard service pressure for 2 3/4" chambered Brit guns. It works out to be 9682psi as opposed to our 2 3/4" at 11,500psi.

Great post!!!

Best!

Greg

The reason for me is that most game shoots I go on request (often require) felt wads for biodegradability and animal compatibility (there are reported cases of animals eating plastic wads with ill effects). The clays ground I shoot at regularly requests felt wads. They pattern slightly more open I believe, but are otherwise fine for me.

When I ran a game shoot over several different owner's land - one landowner was very firmly 'felt/fibre wads only', so much so that if he found plastics wads he threatened no more shooting - period. Hence I had to be very strict that people shooting and their invited guests only ever used felt/fibre wad cartridges.

Interesting post! There is yet another issue: If indeed a 2 1/2-inch chambered gun will sell at a discount over a 2 3/4-inch gun, then remember that it already sold at a similar discount when you bought it!

So you bought it for less and will sell it for less if your model is correct, which I do not think it is (but again, that's just my own opinion)

The comments regarding proof pressure of the CIP vs SAAMI loads are important. Most of us, me included, do not use commonly available domestic loads in our European guns proofed for European shells. Given that, then any difference between 2 1/2 and 2 3/4-inch shells just about disappears.

I know that I promised not to post any more on this thread, but this is getting interesting, I think. I do not know too much about how the London or Birmingham or, for that matter, other proof houses work, but I do not think that the proof marks necessarily indicate the maximum pressures for a gun. I believe that the proof houses prove guns as and to the pressures instructed by the manufacturer or other person requesting the proof. In fact, it may be that a manufacturer would ask that its guns be proofed for significantly less than the maximum pressure, so as not to fail proof. Put another way, because a gun has proofs for, say,
850 bars, it doesn't necessarily mean that it could not be proved to a higher standard. For instance, I purchased an Italian pigeon gun some time ago at an auction in London. I believe that British proof marks are required to sell a gun in an auction in England. Accordingly, immediately before it was auctioned, it was proved in London and Is so marked for 900 bars. Given the heft of this baby and considering that it is a pigeon gun, I cannot believe that it could not have been proved to higher standard, but there was no real need for the consignor or auction house to request a higher proof.

HOS, I think you have the horse and the cart reversed. The British proofhouses no longer offer a range of proofs. You did find different bars markings when those were used (until 2005). In part, that was to accommodate the fact that small bores are proofed to slightly higher pressures than 12's. (Same deal with SAAMI service pressure standards in this country. 12's and 16's are 11,500 psi; 20's, 12,000 psi; 28's and .410's, 12,500.) So the proofhouses had to make allowance for those differences. For example, I recently saw a vintage British 20ga with chambers lengthened to 2 3/4" and reproofed at 950 bars.

However, the bars are now out (as of 2005), and they have been replaced by 3 levels of proof, or actually only two with a variation attached to one. Those are marked STD for standard (which replaces the old 850 bars for 12's, or slightly higher for smaller bores); and SUP for superior, which replaces the old 1200 bar magnum proof. There is also now a steel shot proof, which is the same as the superior proof with the exception that the proof load uses steel rather than lead shot. And that's it. The gunmaker could request any of those three levels of proof with a 2 3/4" or longer gun. If he were to build a new 2 1/2" gun, or if he were to build a very light game gun with 2 3/4" chambers, then he'd request the standard proof. Of course they all try to build their guns so that there's some built-in cushion above that to which it will be subjected at proof.

And just as SAAMI does in this country, the CIP sets pressure standards for ammunition manufactured in the UK and European countries. If the ammo makers want the CIP seal on their ammo, then they have to comply with the CIP standards. And the shell box will specify the proof level of the guns appropriate for the shells in question. I have yet to see any boxes marked with STD or SUP, but I expect some of our British posters have.

Thank you for that very cogent explanation. It is very helpful. My point was only that a gunmaker, for commercial reasons, might not necessarily request the highest proof, even though the gun in question might be able to satisfy the higher proof test. Incidentally, how does one ascertain what the pressure of one's ammo is? Is all standard 2-3/4 inch US ammo roughly the same? Does it make any difference if it is Rio, Winchester, Fiocchi or Estate (I.e., foreign or US manufacturers or licensees)? Is the SAAMI standard a maximum? P. S. When you feel up to it, I wouldn't mind a short course on other countries' proof houses. Interesting stuff I think. Thank you.

HOS, you might find this link helpful:

http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3428

It has a lot of stuff on proof but also shot weight/size and other good info.

I look at it this way. The guy who is shooting an 870 pump or an auto loader as his main guns is not the guy who would likely be buying your Purdey. People interested in classic SxS are a small crowd in the gun world and that is who you need to market to if you sell. I see the short chambers being more of an issue for American SxS vs English.

HOS, the only way for sure to know the pressure of your ammo is either to reload very accurately and go by what the book tells you, or else--if you're shooting factory ammo--send some off to someone like Tom Armbrust for pressure testing. (You can do the same thing with reloads if you vary somewhat from a book recipe, maybe in an attempt to lower pressure even more for vintage guns.) The SAAMI standard is a maximum, although there can be some slight variations above that max. Without having specific American loads pressure tested--and I'm speaking Winchester/Remington/Federal, not the small specialty makers like RST, who will provide that information--you are stuck with the assumption that the loads may be as high as the SAAMI maximum. And even if you have a particular type of shell pressure tested, there's no guarantee that the next lot of the same shell will have the same pressure. American ammo makers load for consistent velocity, and they occasionally change the powders they use, which can mean a pressure change. Makes no difference to them as long as they stay under the SAAMI standard and maintain the same velocity. British/European shotshell makers will sometimes provide pressures for their shells. But the markings on their boxes often don't even include velocity, although they do tell you for what kind of guns (chamber length/proof pressure) the shells are intended.

All the proofhouses within the CIP countries (which is the blanket organization to which the British and all the major European gunmaking countries belong) conform to the same general proof and service pressure standards. The problem is that they all use their own proofmarks, which are sometimes pretty clear (as in when they give you a proof pressure figure in bars), sometimes not. The really confusing part is that all of those countries have changed proofmarks several times in the last century. In the case of the British, starting with the proof rules of 1925, there have been 4 major changes. And if you have a really old Brit gun, there were several changes prior to 1925.

Whoa! Truly awesome info. I knew there was a reason that I kept looking at this board. This thread is so much better than the usual " if you won the jillion dollar lottery, what four guns would you buy" questions that have predominated here in recent years. I am not sure I understand everything said here, but I expect to have some follow up questions tomorrow. Thanks!

Reading this thread has reminded me that of the eight English guns I have owned in the past 10 years, three of them had 2 3/4" chambers while the remaining five were 2 1/2" guns. I have subsequently sold all 3 of the 2 3/4" guns and kept the 2 1/2" ones. It is obvious that I like guns with 2 1/2" chambers as they feel "Right" in my hands and are idealy suited for all types of driven game as practiced in the UK.
Bob

A quick couple of points for this discussion.

My auction research indicates that the market in Brit/Continental guns has remained relatively stable for the past five years or so.

1. If the number of buyers is shrinking, then number guns owned per buyer must be increasing.

2. Vintage guns can't be "manufactured" currently; the supply is fixed by original production. So, the current supply must be matching the current demand for pricing to remain stable.

If demand rises above supply, pricing will go up. If demand falls below supply, pricing will go down.

Edit - I forgot to say well done, Larry Brown. A very nicely crafted "101" on the chamber length issue.

DDA

BB, you could characterize "right" as follows.

"I like guns with handling characteristics of 6 1/2# weight, 4 1/2" balance to (front) trigger, unmounted swing effort of 1.5, and mounted swing effort of 6.5; the handling description of a typical 12 bore - 2 1/2" Brit game gun. This would be as opposed to a weight of 7 1/4#, 5", 1.75, and 7.75; the handling characteristics of a typical Brit 12 bore - 2 3/4" heavy game/light pigeon gun."

It should be recognized that "right" is in the hands of the shooter. I, for example, would much prefer the 2 3/4" gun due to my size, strength, muscle make-up, and style. Neither of our "rights" is universally "right;" just "right" for us as individuals. Right??

DDA

R'Mam
A gun which I own that always felt about the "Rightest" to me & which I shot as well or better than most any other I ever used was a SLNE 2-trigger J P Clabrough 12ga. This gun has 28" Damascus bbls & a weight of 6lb 14oz. It has a bit of cast off to the stock though I have never measured it exactly, not do I know swing efforts.Have never even checked where the balance point is. It is ¼ choked in both bbls & has 2 5/8" chambers by measurement. The load with which it saw the most use in my hands was 1oz shot @ about 1150MV & around 8k psi.

2-p, sounds like you are "heavy game gun man." A good many American made 16's and 20's fit into this handling category, whereas 12's tend to fit the pigeon/duck gun class; 7 5/8#, 5 1/4", 1.85, and 8.5. The neat part of the handling characteristics profile is that, like the stock dimensions profile, you can know if the gun will suit you or is a candidate for modification to fit you, from half way around the globe.

DDA

Rocketman, thanks! Coming from you, I take that as high praise. And I would be remiss if I didn't point out that much of what I've learned in this area has been acquired on this BB, which I've followed pretty much from the very start. Along with buying guns I should've passed up . . .

Just wanted to thank everyone who consistently helps educate those of us who enjoy the sport but lack the experience and time in the field to acquire the wealth of knowledge available from this BBS.

I rarely encounter a BBS as collegial and pleasant as this one !

So, after looking around my gun room, I find, inter alia, a pre war greifelt marked for 2-1/2 inch shells that has been opened to 2-3/4, with a kersten cross bolt and double underbolts (just like a Merlel); a couple of pre war 2-3/4 inch sidelock Merkels and a post war 303 sidelock Merkel. Also a 1911 vintage Winchester 1897 and a 1921 model 12 and a number of Berettas from the 1960s. I won't get into some of the other stuff. I have never reloaded and have always used whatever ammo came from the store, usually the cheapest stuff around. Other than going to hell, what's likely to happen to me for totally disregarding proper loads etc.?

No issues with anything post-WWII. Assuming the prewar Merkels were built for the American market, they shouldn't be a problem either. The formerly 2 1/2" gun should be fed either 2 1/2" shells or lower pressure 2 3/4" loads. But in all honesty, German guns tend to be overbuilt. My first classic sxs was a prewar Sauer 16. Back in the Dark Ages, long before this BB and magazines like Double Gun Journal existed, I had the chambers and cones lengthened, and shot American factory ammo--frequently 1 1/8 oz loads for pheasants--for about 20 years. Nothing ever happened to the gun. The greatest risk is that it will either shoot loose (off face), or you may damage the stock due to excessive recoil (not due to pressure, but rather to heavier shot charges and/or higher velocity loads). You reduce the risk by shooting lower pressure and lighter loads at reduced velocity.