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Posted By: pooch Shooting pen raised birds - 06/01/13 08:59 PM
is murder and other then a way to exercise an old dog, not much sport. Since wild quail are extinct it seems we must adjust. I've been wondering about using bird shot in a pistol or some sort of small bore black powder device. Anybody have something they use to put some sport back in the game?
Posted By: arrieta2 Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/01/13 09:07 PM
Here in Texas shooting wild quality can be very expensive. Some of the places get $800-900 a day. The quail population can be very spotty too. I do shoot pen raised but I use either a 24, 28 or 410 ga to off set things. Some pen raised birds fly very well and others are kickers

John Boyd
Quality Arms
Houton, TX
Posted By: Doublefan Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/01/13 09:11 PM
Hi, let them get out some distance and use a smaller gauge then you would otherwise. Also most clubs offer scratch hunting and that can be fun. The dumb ones are dead and chased a few times the ones left catch on real quick. Anyone who shoots a constant 25 at skeet can mix things up or back up and it changes the game. Also check with landowners close by, that can offer some hunting. It is what you make of it. I "guide" at a Pheasant farm here in northern Wisconsin. Being self employed it's my paid vacation. Myself and the dogs stay in shape for Grouse and some people want to go after the scratch birds and they are the fun ones. Happy hunting! Bob
Posted By: pooch Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/01/13 09:13 PM
I would think finding shells for that 24 gauge would be the real sport.
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/01/13 09:27 PM
Pooch, you left out that it is good exercise for old men as well as old dogs. I do it and I am an old time Georgia bird hunter. I have a very few dependable wilds coveys left but usually just leave them for seed after I maybe pay one or two visits on my wild birds every season.

I am lucky enough to have some pretty woods to release kick'em-up birds in. That is on purpose as I burn my pine woods and leave some open grassland as well just for that purpose.

My "method" is simply to drive down two path roads through some pretty cover and toss the birds out the back of the truck one at a time. I have no idea where they will be, but trust the dogs to find them. Twentyfive will provide a full morning or afternoon of walk up shooting over my own dog's points. At $4.50 a bird I don't want to lose many and I do not think they "carry over" well.

It ain't exactly bird hunting but it will do well enough for me. The last really good wild bird hunting I did was in Tamaulepas (sp?) State in North Mexico around Lake Guerrero. Don't think I want to visit there anymore...Geo
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/01/13 09:33 PM
Pooch, as noted above, you can find places with good pen-raised birds, but you can also find places with sorry pen-raised birds. Quail can be a particular problem. Sometimes released quail either don't want to or can't fly, or only flutter for 50 feet or so. I've found preserve pheasants and chukar to be much more likely to flush hard and fly well. But even with those birds, you'll see a difference. I hunted one preserve in KS that has a really good reputation for pheasants, and even they will tell you that what you get is pretty much the equivalent of opening day birds at best. That's about what you should expect from a good preserve. But if you don't have anything close by to hunt, it can be fun for you and the dogs. I won't use a 28ga on wild roosters, but decided to try on that KS preserve. 3/4 oz 7's in a double choked IC/M. Birds over experienced pointing dogs--mine or the preserve's. They flew well but they held pretty tight. That gun and load were just right for them.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/01/13 10:01 PM
Regarding the quail, I wouldn't use the big bores but would hold with a 9mm Flobert, if you have a stock of ammo. Might have a young sportsman along with a large bore. Provides young dogs especially with experience. Never been impressed with preserve ditch parrots, but the wild Kansas ditch parrots will equip your dog for any other variant.

Interesting this Spring here in North Alabama as I've called up dozens of Bobs and have seen numerous pairs, typically in overgrown areas where the tornadoes cut a path last year.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Rockdoc Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/01/13 10:22 PM
Using pen-raised poultry to train my dog is what sent me down the .410 and muzzle loader path. My ultimate PRP gun was a 36 gauge SXS percussion ML.
Steve
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/01/13 10:25 PM
Yes, muzzle-loader is an excellent choice also. Working dogs on pen raised birds using a muzzle-loader is what led me to hunt Kansas wild ditch parrots with a muzzle-loader as well as waterfowl.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: steve voss Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/01/13 10:36 PM
Pooch, they are good for at least two things I can think of that bring a smile to my face. First, watching a young dog figure things out a bit and seeing his light go on. Last, giving an old dog a bit of pleasure. I had that honor two dogs ago with a gaunt, cancer ridden pointer who could only walk finding and retrieving two planted birds. I carried him back to the truck and held him in my lap all the way to the vet's office and as he finally went to the big sleep.
Posted By: GLS Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/01/13 10:42 PM
A buddy has good piney woods with extensive food plots on 1500 acres. Every year he'll put out 50 coveys of 25 birds a covey, six to eight weeks before the season. Once a week, milo is broadcast on food trails. The birds arrive from Alabama in a climate controlled trailer and are raised in an isolation environment where the birds don't see people. By the time the season rolls around, the birds become strong fliers and aren't "kick'em" ups. I won't say they are equal to wild birds, but there are so few wild coveys to compare them to, it's a comparison based mostly on memory. My friend has been a quail hunter for over 50 years and I recall when he would harvest 350 wild quail a year on public land. He doesn't mind spending a buck on quail hunting and swears by the birds delivered by:
http://www.blackcreekquailfarm.com/ The are more costly than other suppliers, but he feels the quality is worth it.
Posted By: ed good Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/01/13 10:50 PM
better off shooting clay birds, or go to northern maine or minn and chase after old ruff...
Posted By: pooch Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/02/13 12:44 AM
There is a danger with pen raised birds. Once a few years ago, while training our pups we had some birds left over, so I took them home planning to use them the next week end. I took them out of their card board box and put them into a cage. My wife then named the birds, Lovey, Dovey, Covey and I forget what else, wanting to make them pets. I told my wife they would be dying the following week end so she should not get attached.

That following weekend I took the birds out to train the pups. I took a look at Lovey, Dovey, Covey and company, then told my hunting partner. "I'll put them out but you gotta shoot them. I can't shoot a bird that I know his name."

Posted By: pooch Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/02/13 12:50 AM
I'm old and my dogs are old. If I went to field again I would probably shoot a Meadow Lark or a song bird and my dogs would probably point it.

I'm too old to get a pup as I would surely die before the dog. It's not right to leave a dog.
Posted By: pooch Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/02/13 01:02 AM
Originally Posted By: steve voss
Pooch, they are good for at least two things I can think of that bring a smile to my face. First, watching a young dog figure things out a bit and seeing his light go on. Last, giving an old dog a bit of pleasure. I had that honor two dogs ago with a gaunt, cancer ridden pointer who could only walk finding and retrieving two planted birds. I carried him back to the truck and held him in my lap all the way to the vet's office and as he finally went to the big sleep.


I hate saying goodbye to a dog. I have yet to find a good way of doing it.

I think I'll get a single shot 410.
Posted By: craigd Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/02/13 03:08 AM
I've shot a bunch of planted bobwhites and pheasants to help train young bird dogs. Can't think of a better way to get them in on a lot of action in a controlled way. I never thought of it as murder and not really as sport either. I always wanted to anchor the bird right now for the pup when everything was working out right during training, so it didn't bother me if I smoked a close bird with a 12 ga. I never mistreated the birds, but they were what they were.
Posted By: pooch Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/02/13 03:28 AM
Pen raised birds as training tools are only a training tool. Until a dog learns to hunts wild birds he is not a hunting dog. Don't kid yourself to thinking otherwise.
Posted By: Ghostrider Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/02/13 03:56 AM
Pooch,

I do not think it is ever too late to get a dog. They just bring a lot of happiness and companionship to a persons life. If the dog has a good chance that he might out live you, that's OK. Just make sure you have someone that can appreciate the dog is lined up to take it.
Now for the pen raised birds. I am lucky to live in an area where I get some great bird hunting in. Some years better than others. I am also luck to have a hunting partner that raise 15,000 plus Bobwhites and Chukers each year. It is all in the way these birds are raised and cared for. If you raise them in good flight pens you stand a good chance of having some great flying birds. Nothing takes the place of wild birds, but nothing else substitutes for the experience a young dog gets from training on these pen raised birds, along with some pigeons. These young dogs have a great foundation the first time they go out for wild birds. Just like in sports you need to practice before, and even during the season. We normally train with a 20 or a 28 gauge with light loads. I will also admit to have missed a few birds. I would be hard pressed to shoot these birds with a pistol with bird shot.
We have had a great time taking some friends out with us for a shoot on planted pen raised birds, and nothing is much more enjoyable than taking out some young hunters out for the first time, shooting these birds over the dogs. Lots of opportunity for them, they get to see the dogs work, and you can help mentor these kids on safety and with the guns around the dogs and the other hunters.




Posted By: Gerald A. Mele Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/02/13 04:23 AM
Boy o Boy you guys are som pretty tough characters!!

I shoot (hunt?) at game preserves every year. Some are better than others. When I was growing up you could hunt wild phesants on the San Joaquin Valley's west side in the skip row cotton. Farming and irrigation practices have made phesants extinct around here except there are a few in some of the duck country.

I enjoy a good "pen raised hunt". It get me out. It give me a chance to take out my older dbl guns. It gives me a chance to work my dog, take my wife or a kid hunting. I have hunted some clubs that you really had to work to find the birds. Is it So Dakota? Hell no, but it is fun and if it is a good club, it IS hunting.

I try to go to So, Dakota or Kansas or some where once a year, but I can't always do it... but staying home and "scorning planted birds" isn't hunting either.

Jerry
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/02/13 12:26 PM
Originally Posted By: pooch
Pen raised birds as training tools are only a training tool. Until a dog learns to hunts wild birds he is not a hunting dog. Don't kid yourself to thinking otherwise.


Pooch, I'll agree that dogs get into bad habits if they only hunt preserve birds. Turn loose a dog that's hunted mostly wild birds and one that's only hunted preserve birds at the same time, on a preserve, and you'll see a significant difference. The wild bird dog will likely head to the edges of the fields. The preserve dog will work the trails, because he knows that most of the birds won't be far from them.
Posted By: pooch Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/02/13 12:39 PM
Phillip, that is one happy dog! A good thing to see.

I'm not going to beat up preserve hunting or dogs that only had pen raised experience. You gotta do what you gotta do and it beats the hell out of golf. I've just had the good fortune of a life time of hunting wild birds with some really smart dogs and I miss it terribly.
Posted By: ed good Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/02/13 12:44 PM
pooch et al: agreed.
Posted By: AmarilloMike Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/02/13 01:07 PM
I field trial and hunt wild birds with my Brittanys. The NSTRA field trials I participate in use pen raised bobwhite. Nothing tests my dog's manners like a pen raised bob white in a field trial. No ecollars. The dogs have learned they can frequently catch the pen-raised bobs on their own. They must hold even when the bob is strutting back and forth in front of them. All that keeps my dogs on point is their training and sometimes intimidation if I am close enough.

As someone said not all pen raised bobs are equal either. Some fly very well and some are very underpowered.

Some people here sell "johnny house hunts". They have a half-dozen johnny houses with pen-raised bobs in them. They open a trap door at the top and flush the birds out. Birds usually fly 100 to 200 yards. Then their customers hunt them. The ones I went on had good flying birds. But some birds were hard to flush and sometimes required a nudge with a toe. That is the best liberated bobwhite hunt I think.

The liberated chukars are a lot of fun to hunt. And they quickly covey up. I have never had a dog, in a breech of manners, catch a healthy liberated chukar either.

In regard to the original question I have a 28 bore Birmy boxlock, a Salter and Varge, that weighs 5lbs even and has 26" barrels. Both barrels are choked skeet or so. It is proofed for 5/8oz so 9/16 of #8s would be about right.

Posted By: Bill D Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/02/13 01:09 PM
I guess the lord truly blessed me. I got to hunt southern quail when the birds were plentiful and land open. We have family land in the quail capital county of the world, Bullock County, AL. I've had a little English Setter that was truly a great bird dog with more heart than a hunter could ever want. She was 6 weeks old when she came to me and 16 years old when she left. I wait for the day we will hunt together again and miss her everyday till then. I also have a wife who puts up with my need to hear the bird rise one more time. Today my wild bird hunts are only pheasants in ND, but its on private lands owned by friends who come south to fish the gulf with me and allow me to walk behind their dogs up there. They are much younger than I, but I see the same love of the sport that I grew up with. When the lord calls me to different covers I hope the birds hold well for the dogs. God Bless the birds, dogs, those who love them both, and the women who put up with us and our "too many" guns.



Posted By: craigd Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/02/13 01:34 PM
Originally Posted By: pooch
....I'm not going to beat up preserve hunting or dogs that only had pen raised experience. You gotta do what you gotta do and it beats the hell out of golf. I've just had the good fortune of a life time of hunting wild birds with some really smart dogs and I miss it terribly.


Agreed, hunting to me means wild birds. How did your bird dogs get to be so good. Were they only trained on wild birds during hunting season, or maybe you got them started or trained. What do you do with a promising dog if bird counts scrape the bottom it's first two seasons, and now it's near three and never had a bird on point.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/02/13 01:36 PM
Originally Posted By: GLS
The birds arrive from Alabama in a climate controlled trailer and are raised in an isolation environment where the birds don't see people.


Does he procure the birds from Vick's in Susan Moore, Alabama? I've seen him cycle 10s of thousands of Quail. I believe his bank of incubators has a capacity of say 20k eggs.

I was fortunate to get in on the tail end of the Bob White decline. I tagged along with many others who had seen the pinnacle hearing talk of dozens of coveys per day and just cutting out the Bob's on the covey rise. Every since I could eat dog food, we've always had a bird-dog and intend the same for the Boys Ellenburg. In this area in the 1980s many saw the writing on the wall and sold dogs, guns, all before the population dip.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Bill D Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/02/13 01:48 PM
Raimey, When I lived in Huntsville I was able to hunt Redstone. I pretty much had the bird hunting to myself (1975-80's)and could expect to find 6 to 10 coveys a day. I suspect there still isn't much bird hunting that goes on there. I had access because of a business contract and my volunteer work with the post game wardens, which allowed me to then have military hunting access. If you can find a military hunting partner and have the dogs You might find the "old" hunting.
Posted By: Hoof Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/02/13 02:01 PM
Originally Posted By: pooch


That following weekend I took the birds out to train the pups. I took a look at Lovey, Dovey, Covey and company, then told my hunting partner. "I'll put them out but you gotta shoot them. I can't shoot a bird that I know his name."



That is really funny, because the rule at my house is once it has a name you can't eat it.
CHAZ
Posted By: pooch Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/02/13 02:27 PM
I don't claim to be a dog trainer. I believe the key to a good dog is to do no harm. The dogs have it in their blood we just need to give it a little direction and to keep it fun. Yard work, basics with the pen raised then let the wild birds train them. The rub is you need the wild bids. It's also helpful to hunt with experienced hunters that don't get angry when a pup screws up. Anybody that's worked with dogs know they can screw up. After all we do our share of screwing up.
Posted By: treblig1958 Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/02/13 03:45 PM
Pooch, like Larry said, hunt the pen raised pheasant and chukar they fly hard and fast. Granted, there is nothing like wild birds but those days are gone for most of us, and like they said about all the great jobs around here in the steel mills, "They're gone boys and they ain't coming back"

Posted By: David Williamson Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/02/13 03:54 PM
I remember back in the 60's and into the 80's when I could find wild pheasants and quail in a few places in New Jersey. When I started hunting eastern central Pa., there were a lot of wild pheasants. That was then, if you want to strictly hunt wild birds north of the Mason Dixon line and have a good dog, it is not going to happen.

Remember, the more birds your dogs sees the better he gets. And as trebling stated, "they're gone.
Posted By: KY Jon Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/02/13 04:02 PM
Pooch get a dog. I gave my father a Golden and he is 90. I hope he out lives this one but the odds are in the dogs favor. A loved and well mannered dog will be much easier to place than anything other than money. Rest assured that those left behind by you will find a good home for you dog. The hundreds of hours of companionship that a dog and man will give each other is not to be underestimated. For both the dog and man it is priceless. Get a dog if you still can.

As to pen raised birds I find they fill an important niche and not just for dogs. If your health is such that long outings are too much, and we all get there if we live long enough, a carefully planed hunt over raised birds allows you to hunt and watch good dog work. And I love to watch a dog hunt. The energy and intensity that a good dog displays warms my heart. Shooting the birds then is more for the dog than the man. It is a man and dog team work thing. I have been as proud of some of my dog work as I have been of my kids. Some of my dogs have almost been my kids.

The second reason to hunt pen raised birds is to have birds for kids to shoot while they are learning. Nothing will kill a future hunter faster than going and never seeing many birds or never hitting any of the few that they do see. Such is how golfers are born.
Posted By: pooch Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/02/13 04:58 PM
I'm not intending to throw rocks at you folks hunting preserve birds as I plan to be joining you shortly. Here in Texas we have wide open spaces you can walk in one direction for hours. Lots of neat bushes, structures and rocks to see. I'd try to get the dogs to water every hour, they would swim and I would loaf.
Posted By: Rockdoc Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/03/13 12:05 AM
Originally Posted By: treblig1958
Pooch, like Larry said, hunt the pen raised pheasant and chukar they fly hard and fast. Granted, there is nothing like wild birds but those days are gone for most of us, and like they said about all the great jobs around here in the steel mills, "They're gone boys and they ain't coming back"


Also, to me the pen-raised chukars taste better than pheasants. That said, my daughter was in for a visit recently and took me out to an upscale restaurant in West Austin, Hudson's on the Bend, that had a pheasant entrée that was incredible!
Steve
Posted By: Samuel_Hoggson Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/03/13 12:51 AM
I hunted phez, chukar, and quail on a very large preserve in NYS for about 20 years. Early on I did the planted bird, and/or tower followup, routine. Afterwards we never put out birds, and hunted the scratch birds in cover the weekenders did not want to go through. And the dogs won't be working "trails" cuz there are none in such places.

Those possessing little or no experience with preserves typically denigrate them. There is a grain of truth - if you put out beach balls and walk them up 20 minutes later you should not expect fast runners and fliers. A phez that's been out more than a few weeks gets pretty savvy. It doesn't take years - or generations - popular myths to the contrary. I think chukar get smart even faster than that.

Preserves offer some flexibility, once you know the preserve and have learned to think with your "bird-brain". If you want a sporting outing with a Model 42, or just wish to host some relative newbies, you can certainly have it. You can also spend the day covering miles to run that one rooster the dogs have been chasing for over an hour. And you can do this stuff from October 1 to April. One blustery day I shot about a dozen phez, with the closest opportunity at 35 yds. I used every bit of a 16 ga M-12 full, and the B&Ps in #5, that day.

When I hosted guys who hunted wild ones out west they mostly said they saw no difference in bird toughness (talking scratch birds), though the judged shot opportunities as a bit closer. Makes sense. That may have been somewhat related to the time of year we were out, too.

Sam
Posted By: pooch Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/03/13 02:11 PM
The larger pen raised birds have some survival capability and seem to survive long enough to learn how to fly. This is not the case with the poor little pen raised quail who needs numbers to survive and seldom lasts a few days in the wild.
Posted By: craigd Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/03/13 02:57 PM
I don't think it's automatic that a pen raised bird can't fly like other folks have mentioned some are better than others. If you're getting into preserve use, one thing you might notice is that in business, you'll get a whole lot more bang for your buck with those poor little quail rather than bigger birds.

Also, I had the chance to hunt a bunch of bobwhites just a little down the road from you in central Texas. When it was off season training time, I wanted to use the same bird that we hunted for real. When we headed to the midwest for pheasant, I wanted to help the pup switch gears and tune up on that bird right before the trips, and I can say it was worth it.

You just can't extend the wild bird season legally, and it doesn't make sense to me to give up a convenient training option and just hope for the best. There were many times though the the dog gets thrown into a new situation and has to figure it out, their instincts shine a whole lot better with practice.
Posted By: Hoof Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/03/13 03:17 PM
The place I go to has surrogated quail on the property, and the pen raised released birds he puts out to supplement numbers get in with the previously released "wild" coveys and hang around. He has even found some natural reproduction on the property.

He said the pheasants will hang around a few weeks, but either get eaten or leave the property before too long, and the chukars don't even usually make it overnight.

I have hunted pheasants there when we didn't stock any quail and flushed several coveys of 25+ birds.

CHAZ
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/04/13 02:06 PM
Most preserves aren't big enough that you can hunt for hours, without going over the same ground repeatedly. They're typically divided into several fields, with different groups assigned to each field. If you're hunting scratch birds during the week rather than on the weekend, then it's possible that you might be able to have the run of the place and work to hunt the more wild-like survivors.

I've hunted a place in Missouri where they do mass releases well in advance of hunts. Talking quail here. There are feeders, and the birds are MUCH better than just-released bobs. I also hunted Wild Wing in Kentucky a few years ago. It was a "no limit" place (and they meant it), with electronic call birds, covey base camps, etc. Those birds were as close to the real thing as I've ever seen. The only difference was that numbers were so high, it was like TX in one of those years you could expect 25-30 covey days. (Will we ever see those again?)
Posted By: Riprap Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/04/13 06:35 PM
I grew up in South Georgia hunting wild birds. I could go around the woods lines on our farm and find a covey about every 300 yards. Those days are gone. Of course , I had rather hunt wild quail. There is nothing like wild birds getting up in your face and all flying together in one direction in maybe one or two waves. Its easy to get a double or triple because they are generally all flying in the same direction. Released birds will go in as many different directions as there are birds. Wild birds are also easier for me to hit because they fly hard and fast and require a fast swing which I do better than having to wait on released birds.

The reason we shoot released birds is because the wild birds are not available. Fortunately, I get to shoot a few wild birds each year. Typically, I will hunt wild birds for a while and then go shoot the released birds. There are two keys to good released bird hunting. One is getting good birds from a reputable producer and the other is using a flushing dog to make the birds fly. After raising a family in Atlanta I moved back to South Georgia to bird hunt and for the last 20 years I have bird hunted one or two days a week during the season. So I have killed many wild birds and tons of released birds. Being an old South Georgia boy bird hunting is not bird hunting unless it is behind an English Setter or English Pointer, preferably a Riprap (black and white English Pointer). You put the birds out the easiest way. Have someone drive the truck and thrown out 5 to ten at a time at least 300 yards apart. My flushing dog is an English Pointer that in years past I would not have keep. But he is perfect with my other steady dogs because after holding the point for awhile he will push the birds and that combination is about as good as you can do today. When I first moved back to bird hunt I had the birddog of a lifetime, Prince did everything well and on my command would push the birds for me and yet hold the next point until I released him again. Heaven won't be heaven without a Prince there.

I hear people say how much easier it is to kill released birds than wild birds. If you don't shoot well, that may be true, but in my experience it takes less to knock down the smaller wild bird than the larger released bird. A released bird can carry off more shot and die unfound later. Also, my poor swing does better with the fast birds that require shooting before they are behind a tree or bushes. I shoot a 28 gauge side by side and sometimes a 410 or twenty side by side. My gun of choice is the 28 gauge because I like a light weight gun. In my early years it was a 870 Wingmaster pump sixteen gauge or a Browning sweet sixteen. But today it seems unfair to shoot quail with more than a 28 gauge and two shots.
Posted By: Chuck H Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/04/13 08:12 PM
Pooch,
I shoot some pen raised birds several times a year. Like you said, it's better'n golf...especially for the dogs. grin

I don't wanna stop you from buying your next dream gun in .410, but I do have a neat little solution to your desire to reduce the howitzer effect. There's a neat little 12ga round made by Aguilla that's about 1 3/4" long and holds 5/8 oz of 7 1/2 shot. They have a full column shotcup type wad and pattern like a summer cloudburst. They ain't cheap, but they're not as much as a 3" .410 either. Besides, you can shoot em in your vintage 12ga, no matter what the warning on the box says...these little shells don't put out much pressure to get 5/8 oz to move 1200 fps. Try a few boxes, they're as much smallbore fun as you can have with a 12ga.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/255579/...-shot-box-of-20

Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/04/13 08:41 PM
I don't understand why so many of us feel the need to make it harder to kill released birds. I usually shoot my 16ga Parker with RST or Polywad vintager shells which is just what I use for wild birds or doves. My "go-to" alternative bird gun is a 12ga E.M. Riley with tighter chokes and Polywad spreader loads. It doesn't matter to the bird except to the extent of unnecessary suffering from a less than lethal shot. Why the need to handicap?...Geo
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/04/13 09:05 PM
That's a good point, George. If all your shots are coming within .410 range and you can kill your birds with a .410, fine and dandy. (And if you can hold your fire if they get up beyond .410 range.) When I shot the pheasants I mentioned earlier with a 28ga--which I would not use for wild birds--I was counting on consistently close flushes. Which I got. After flat missing the first bird (and feeling like a real idiot), I then killed the next 27 straight, including a couple doubles. 2 or 3 of the singles did require a 2nd barrel, and the dogs had to help me with 2 or 3 that didn't come down either dead or totally immobile. But I also had a 12ga along, and if I'd been crippling regularly with the 28, I would've switched in a heartbeat.
Posted By: jerry66stl Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/04/13 10:47 PM
Some of the prior comments are unrealistic...

80%+ of us live in urban areas. Most of us work 40 hours per week. There NO nearby wild birds -- one has to drive many miles to find any wild birds. If one wants to train and maintain a bird dog, pen-raised birds are the only choice.

Even those living on farms or in villages probably use pen raised birds for their dog training.

ALL field trials use pen-raised birds.

We live in 2013, not 1940. The Missouri quail population is down 90% from the 1960's. Most of the upland birds we shoot are pen-raised, except for doves. Get over it !!!
Posted By: Chuck H Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/04/13 11:46 PM
George,
I think it was Mike that said something to the effect that once you passed the KFC on the way to shoot a bird, you threw out all rational reasoning. grin
Posted By: GLS Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/05/13 12:20 AM
Originally Posted By: Chuck H
George,
I think it was Mike that said something to the effect that once you passed the KFC on the way to shoot a bird, you threw out all rational reasoning. grin


ROFL! Carve that in granite. Gil
Posted By: Krakow Kid Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/05/13 01:28 AM
Bill D, I don't know how far off this reply will land but a resounding AMEN to your post.
Posted By: Run With The Fox Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/05/13 01:38 AM
Originally Posted By: steve voss
Pooch, they are good for at least two things I can think of that bring a smile to my face. First, watching a young dog figure things out a bit and seeing his light go on. Last, giving an old dog a bit of pleasure. I had that honor two dogs ago with a gaunt, cancer ridden pointer who could only walk finding and retrieving two planted birds. I carried him back to the truck and held him in my lap all the way to the vet's office and as he finally went to the big sleep.
Then I suggest you read the late Gene Hills' story- Old Tom-- same scenario. I always use a 12 bore for preserve pheasants, as I like to see them drop dead in a cloud of feathers, and make it easier for the dogs to retrive, then to cripple one with a "midget gauge" and watch a $25 bill go sailing away to later feed the coyotes, feral cats and foxes too!!
Posted By: tw Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/05/13 04:01 AM
There is a lot of wisdom in what Riprap is saying. Good strong flight pen raised birds can be quite challenging and finding them once released earlier is but a part of the deal. Having a good flusher makes all the dif in the world, assuming the dogs doing the pointing can hunt and are steady and able to honor one another.

Get up in the TX panhandle where the winds never quit blowing; Joe Wood's and others' country and good healthy flight pen raised birds are every bit as tough as any wild birds known to man. I've seen some fly an eighth of a mile on the flush like a wild pheasant using the winds to every possible advantage.

You want wild birds? Increase the bug populations, quit using deer corn & feeders in open places & on the farming side, insecticides and shoot every feral hog seen. Used to be that chicken hawks and skunks got the kabosh whenever possible too. Those were dif times.

Today, healthy flight pen raised birds can provide good sport w/o putting added pressure on what few wild birds exist. Wild birds need bugs, period. And so do the pen raised birds that are released to suppliment them, if they are to survive. Wanna feed 'em? Throw the grain in the thickest prickly pear cactus patch you can find, the birds can find it just fine and the hawks can't kill & eat them like they do around deer feeders.

The above just my unsolicited 2 cents worth, but it stikes a nerve. Carried a 20 ga. model 31 most of last season w/a Poly Choke on it's snout. It's very effective set on mod w/ 7/8 oz. of 8's for quail or 1 & 1/16 oz. of 5's for pheasant set one step tighter. So damn me for it; when the emphasis is on the dogs, it's not about the gun, aside from it's effectiveness and when you are working multiple dogs the gun takes some licking ... and needs to keep ticking.
Posted By: Chuck H Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/05/13 05:39 AM
I agree, when the emphasis is on the dogs...



Ah crap. How'd that get in there?

I meant...these pics of the two girls on pen raised birds.


Posted By: L. Brown Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/05/13 12:05 PM
Originally Posted By: jerry66stl
Some of the prior comments are unrealistic...

80%+ of us live in urban areas. Most of us work 40 hours per week. There NO nearby wild birds -- one has to drive many miles to find any wild birds. If one wants to train and maintain a bird dog, pen-raised birds are the only choice.

Even those living on farms or in villages probably use pen raised birds for their dog training.

ALL field trials use pen-raised birds.

We live in 2013, not 1940. The Missouri quail population is down 90% from the 1960's. Most of the upland birds we shoot are pen-raised, except for doves. Get over it !!!


Jerry, agree with most of the above. However, there are field trials that do not use pen-raised birds. Ruffed grouse "cover trials", for example. And at least some of the horseback trials are on wild birds. But they've even "supplemented" the wild quail population down at Ames for the National (although I don't know if they've continued to do that or whether the bird numbers have recovered sufficiently from previous releases), so it's not as easy to find trials run strictly on wild birds as it used to be. And no question that wild bird numbers, in general, are down from what they used to be--very significantly so in your home state of Missouri, and my former home state of Iowa.
Posted By: Bill D Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/05/13 02:02 PM
Krakow Kid, Thanks for the kind word. There's something wonderful about getting a up before dawn on a cold crisp morning,making a pot of coffee, and taking a mug full outside to listen to the bob's calling as each covey awakes to the new day. Then as the dew leaves the ground and the birds start to move we put the hunting collar on the dog. It still has its tiny bell we no longer can hear but it's part of the hunt we won't change. With the dog at heal we move off toward the area where we heard the closest covey wake. As we get near we release the dog with a word and the hunt is on. After all these years, the heart still pounds and we still flinch at the first rise. Yes, I've been in heaven and hope my return is just the same. There is a God and he also is a bird hunter.
Posted By: pooch Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/05/13 04:40 PM
Down loading is a good idea. I'll give it a try. I can reload down to 7/8oz easily enough but I don't know if I can find shot cups that will let me go down to 1/2oz and I don't know how a 1/2oz will pattern in a 12ga.
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/05/13 08:24 PM
Originally Posted By: Bill D
Krakow Kid, Thanks for the kind word. There's something wonderful about getting a up before dawn on a cold crisp morning,making a pot of coffee, and taking a mug full outside to listen to the bob's calling as each covey awakes to the new day. Then as the dew leaves the ground and the birds start to move we put the hunting collar on the dog. It still has its tiny bell we no longer can hear but it's part of the hunt we won't change. With the dog at heal we move off toward the area where we heard the closest covey wake. As we get near we release the dog with a word and the hunt is on. After all these years, the heart still pounds and we still flinch at the first rise. Yes, I've been in heaven and hope my return is just the same. There is a God and he also is a bird hunter.


Very well said, Bill. I am a kindred spirit to you, in my love and appreciation for "birds", especially the wild ones that are left. I take our little house dog out every morning to pee, and hear them calling in the first faint light of day. One morning recently I heard birds calling profusely and stopped a few moments to really take it in. In just a moment I realized I was hearing birds from four different nesting locations around my house. This is quite a concert, to get to hear that many wild birds at once, these days. I still have a "huntable" population (barely, and only a couple times a year). I've a buddy with a couple dogs that still chases wild birds and we hunt my place from time to time. Each time I kill a true wild bob, I take him from the dog and bury my nose in the feathers and drink in that wonderful aroma. In the world's eyes I am a sick man.

I'd rather experience one wild covey rise than fifteen with released birds. Another close friend, who owns the sunflower field I plant each year, releases about 1600 flight trained birds each year in August. I purposely wait until the last few days each season before going with him, to give them more time to "get wild".

I agree God must be a bird hunter, too. And won't be surprised if He uses a hammer-gun.

SRH
Posted By: Bill D Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/05/13 09:36 PM
"And won't be surprised if He uses a hammer-gun." Yes sir!

Thanks Stan, I can smell the bird now. My little setter would sit beside me as I started to clean the days birds. She expected me to throw each bird a short distance as I pulled it from the vest. She wanted one more retrieve before days end.
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/06/13 07:26 PM
Originally Posted By: pooch
Down loading is a good idea. I'll give it a try. I can reload down to 7/8oz easily enough but I don't know if I can find shot cups that will let me go down to 1/2oz and I don't know how a 1/2oz will pattern in a 12ga.


Pooch, I have not gone that light yet in 12ga, but there are also 3/4 oz wads.
Posted By: pooch Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/10/13 03:45 AM
I like to hunt hard and feel like I deserve what I've killed. Maybe those days are past. They, like my youth, will be missed.
Posted By: Tamid Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/11/13 04:26 PM
Cicumstances are very different in other parts of N.America. Alberta used to be the South Dakota for pheasants. We had a very active government program to raise and release birds into the wild. That started to peter-off in the 1990's as less birds were released. There was a healthy wild population but they had to be replenished each year because of our colder climate. Sometime in early 2000 the gov't greatly reduced the released birds. It had a dramatic effect on the economy of small towns. Small town restaurants and hotels closed up, Hunters from the US stopped coming to Alberta. Year after year the number of released birds dropped until this year I believe there will be almost no gov't released birds. There are very few and far between wild pheasants left and those are hunted hard.

That goes for all our upland birds. Intensified farming, pesticides, reduced cover have dramatically affected the numbers. Also Alberta population is increasing. Over a million new people in the last 20 years. In a province with about 3 million people that is a big change. All that is left is to buy and release your own or join a club. Clubs are expensive and the birds cost around $25 each.

I have joined a club and find it is good sport in January and February when there is nothing else to hunt. We use labs to flush the birds and depending on the climate of the day they may fly hard or require a kick with your boot. For wild pheasants I now have to travel to the US. I don't expect the health of the upland wild bird population increasing for a very long time.
Posted By: pooch Re: Shooting pen raised birds - 06/12/13 04:42 PM
Pen raised pheasants do have some flying ability, but the poor Bob Whites are rather lame and a hunt of pen raised Bobs is more like an Easter Egg hunt then a bird hunt. Once however we got some Tennessee Red Quail to do some training and not only did we find a number still around when we came out the next week they flew well enough to where we missed some and the ones we shot were still plumb and healthy. Unfortunately the supplier went out of business and we were never able to find another source those strong red birds.
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