I recently picked up one of the grade 2, NID magnum framed, 3" 12 gauges and had a few question I hope the experts could answer. I was wondering how many inches long the chokes usually were on those. This one has 30" barrels and the chokes are 3" long. I've read the 10 gauges had 32 or 34" barrels.
Also, this one has a Hawkins shotgun recoil pad, would the Ithaca Starburst pad be more appropriate? The Hawkins is in good shape.

One other non magnum Ithaca question. I have a Flues grade 3 16 gauge. One of the early Krupp steel lightweights. It is missing the recoil pad. The dimensions of the small starburst pad from Galazans are still quite a bit too big for the butt stock. Has anyone tried to install the small starburst on a butt with 4 3/8" x 1 3/8" dimensions? Thank you.

I think that the Ithaca sunburst pad was not offered during the Flues era. Depending on when your gun was made, some Jostam pads may have been available, and most certainly the Silvers pad was, as well as the American Silver style by Grieb or Goodrich.

Thanks for the reply, Daryl. The Flues was made in 1912. Most of the other recoil pads on Galazans are pretty big. The Noshoc is a bit smaller than the others. I'll have to check the distance between the screw holes.
The Hawkins on the NID is the diamond heart pattern. It looks like it belongs but I'm not sure if it was available in the mid '30s.

My sources show only the Grieb [American Silvers] and the Silvers available. If you want to be period correct, those are the two. The Silvers is the only one available today as a new pad.

The serial number might turn up the factory specs for that gun

Walt Snyder may have information on the original configuration.

The Ithaca "bridge trestle" pad was introduced in the 1931/32 Ithaca Gun Co. catalogues. However, the Ithaca "bridge trestle" pad of that era didn't come in a large enough size for the the Magnum stocks. The NID Magnums normally got a seven-slot Jostam Anti-Flinch or a Hawkins with the heart-shaped openings. The Hawkins pad with the heart-shaped opening was introduced about 1925.

You can see in this picture that serial number 500000, the Magnum-Ten made for Chas. Askins the Elder, has a Hawkins pad --

Thanks for the replies. I'm not sure which one we're talking about, but the serial number for the 12 is 500,494 and the 16 is 246,631. The 16 is a 3E. That is a wonderfull looking 10 gauge, Researcher. It is tough to tell from that photo if it is the same recoil pad, but this one looks like the original Hawkins diamond heart model on the Galazan's site. If it is the original it has aged well.

For fun reading go here

http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=151290&page=1

Hawkins was patented in 1919.

Scroll down to Vintage pads on Doc's site
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/listing/user/revdocdrew

There were two F.D. Hawkins patents that apply to the pad with the heart-shaped vents -- Patent No. 1,325,152, granted Dec. 16, 1919, which shows a base nailed to the butt (similar to the Huntley/Jostam Sponge Rubber Pad)and the pad glued to that; and Patent No. 1,538,990, granted May 26, 1925, that shows the pad with a fixed base screwed to the butt of the gun.

Thanks for all the replies and the links to more info. Both links were very interesting. I would have replied sooner, but I was having trouble logging on. As you can see I had to change my log in name and re-register. Just took the space out of the name. I tried to change my settings to get rid of the ads and suggested sites and ended up not being able to log on.
Well, back to the Ithaca. According to Walt Snyder's book this magnum 12 was the last magnum made in 1937, so the Hawkins probably is original. If anyone has any more info on this shotgun I would appreciate it. I'm also interested in load data for a low pressure 3". I looked in my "Reloading for Shotguns" book and saw a few 1 3/8oz loads as low as 7900-8000 psi. I wouldn't shoot many 3" but this one would sure be at home in a duck blind.

It left the factory with a pad and it may well have its original.

Thanks, Walter. Do you do factory letters for these? If so, what information would I expect to get on a letter and what method of payment do you prefer? I'd like to confirm the 30" barrels and the ivory bead were original. I expected it to be heavier. By my scale it is 8 lb, 2 oz.

The NID Magnum-Twelve first appears in the retail price list in the 1937 Ithaca Gun Co. catalogue, but doesn't appear in the text until the 1938 catalogue where it says "Magnum 12 gauge, 30 inch barrels. Chamber length 3 inches." and "Magnum 12 ga. for 3 in. shell, about 8 1/2 to 9 lbs." Those I've handled are all of that and more!!

The original Western Super-X 3-inch 12-gauge shell carried a 1 3/8 ounce load. The Super-X 12-gauge 3-inch Magnum load with 1 5/8 ounce of shot came out along with the Winchester Model 12 Heavy Duck gun in 1935.

Northernbob,Why do you want low pressure loads for your NID?
The NID came along after the increase in pressure standards, and maybe because of them, so is good for any standard load as far as pressure is concerned. SAAMI pressures are the same for the 2 3/4" and 3" shells. If you just want to be kind to the stock with less recoil, pressure has nothing to do with that, it strictly depends on the weight of the shot, powder charge and wadding, and the velocity. Some low pressure loads, such as those using slow burning powders may actually increase because they require more powder than a standard load at the same velocity.

That is a common misconception. The progressive burning powder loads that came out in the 1920s, Western Cartridge Co.'s Super-X load leading the way in 1922, were not higher pressure than the heaviest old bulk and dense smokeless powder loads which had been offered from the late 1890s up to that time. In the 12-gauge 2 3/4 inch and longer shells, 3 1/2 drams bulk smokeless pushing 1 1/4 ounces of shot or 28-grains of dense smokeless powder such as Infallible or Ballistite pushing that same 1 1/4 ounces of shot. What the new progressive burning smokeless powders did was push an equal shot charge at a higher velocity or a heavier shot charge at an equal velocity.

I've now scored some old DuPont Smokeless Shotgun Powders books from the late 1920s and early 1930s. These booklets are very lengthy tomes, 96 and 103 pages, promoting their DuPont Oval progressive burning powder, which allowed the development of the high velocity loads like Western's Super-X, Remington's Nitro Express, etc. In the manual they show a table giving the pressure of the 3 1/2 drams DuPont Bulk Smokeless pushing 1 1/4 ounces of #6 shot as 11,700 pounds, with 3 1/2 drams of Schultze 11,800 pounds, and the same load pushed by 28-grains of Ballistite at 12,600 pounds!! Velocities were all given over 40 yards, not the muzzle velocity figures we are use to seeing today. The DuPont bulk gave 943 fps, the Schultze gave 941 fps, and the Ballistite 966 fps. Meanwhile 40 grains of their DuPont Oval gave that 1 1/4 ounce of #6 shot a velocity of 981 fps with a pressure of only 9,400 pounds.

I note that in my Western Cartridge Co. catalogues that up through their April 1, 1930, catalogue they are still giveing drams bulk and grains dense in their loads in the Field and Record shells. By the March 1, 1931, they had introduced non-corrosive priming in their shotshells and the loads in their Xpert, Field and Record shells are given in drams equiv. Western Cartridge Co. never gave drams, grains or drams equiv. for their Super-X loads. Just said they were a Super Excellant Long Range Load --







Here from the mid- to late 1930s the essentially the same Winchester loads give a dram equiv. and the Westerns say "Maximum Load" --

Thanks for the replies. I didn't realize the magnum 12 was introduced that late in the run. Its good to know that they left the factory in this configuration. It is well balanced and doesn't feel like 8 lb,2oz. Being built on the magnum 10 frame I had visions of massively thick chamber walls and barrels.
Tom, I was talking more about recoil than pressure, but all things being equal I would look for a load on the low side. Most of my shotguns are at least a few decades earlier than this so I'm used to thinking light. There is a small crack in one stock cheeks that needs attention before any heavy recoiling shells are shot in it. It looks to be carried a lot more than shot though. The bores are excellent and it locks up rock solid. One thing I haven't mentioned is that unfortunately a previous owner opened up the chokes. The gentleman I bought it from was very up front about someone having done that. What it gets used for will partly be dicated by the patterning board. According to Mr. Snyder's book there were only 87 magnum 12s made in all grades, and only 24 grade 2s. I don't want to damage it with shells of unknown pressures.
Does anyone know the serial number of the first magnum 12?

I have no "facts" but I suspect Ithaca was building the Magnum-Twelves before they actually appeared in the Ithaca Gun Co. catalogues. The two I have good notes on are a No. 2E with 32-inch barrels, serial number 500144, that was at the gun library at the Cabelas flagship store in Sydney in July 2004; and this No. 1E with 34-inch barrels, serial number 500155, that Steve Barnett had at, as I recall, the last Vintage Cup at Sandanona --







T^his gun had been fully Turnbullized.