damngato,
Subject to correction by other forum members that actually know something,I think the following.The gun likely never went to London, it was built on a action type that Anson & Deely from London held the patent on. It was made and proofed in Belgium. A.Francotte was a well respected maker, which I believe is still in business. Von Lengerke & Detmold were the US agents for several Foreign makers, including Mauser and others. I believe you should have the gun repaired, to replace the missing pins,including the hingepin, which should be carefully fitted. Once it is repaired, you can decide whether you want to spend the money to have it restored.It will still be your fathers gun, even if not restored.
Mike
Your first and best step would be to look at the data base of VL&D guns that Griffin & Howe has.
http://www.griffinhowe.com/research-main.cfmThis will tell you if they have the records. You can then have Bob Beach, the G&H historian, do a letter with the history of the gun.
At best they will have the ledger entries and a chain of ownership- or they may have nothing.
In either case Bob can advise of year of manufacture from the serial #. He is not in every day but does respond.
Bob does a excellent job on the VL&D or VL&A guns.
al
Most interesting A&D APUN 4174 & note it is inverted but with Patent and not Brevete
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Thanks guys, I appreciate the help and information. I tried looking up the serial number on Griffin & Howe and it doesn't look like they have it :-( I wish I knew where my dad got this one. The search continues
I found this site but with so many markings I'm not sure I'm looking at it correctly. Would anyone be able to tell year/model from here?
http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html
Damn',
looking at the tables here on the "Useful info" section, it seems to be made in 1891 or 2.
I couldn't see for sure from the pics...the bbls look like fluid steel? ,are they?
As a lover, but no expert on Francottes , I'd say it was one of their lower/mid priced basic boxlock.
Who knows what has gone on inside..the bent nail doesn't bode well, but you never know.
Get it to a good Gunsmith, pay him to tell you whats wrong with it & how much it'll cost to make it into a shooter....then add the sentimental value & see how you feel about the numbers.
If it checks out ok bbl wise, & its not too bad inside, you could have a nice, sentimental shooter for ????.....hopefuly not too much
Please let us know how it works out
good luck
franc
The lower grade guns were still well built, just not so fancy
franc
Thank you for the info, I appreciate it. Being new to all this I have a stupid questions, what do you mean by bbls?
I know my dad was received a bunch of older guns from the widow of a friend and I think that is where this came from. I'm pretty sure it wasn't something he purchased as he was more into revolvers. I'll definitely look into a a knowledgeable gunsmith to look at it. As it sits, not working, any idea as to the value? I have quite a few of the guns I know were special to him and those I will be keeping for sure. I really have no idea as to the value and am thinking of selling it. Thanks again!
bbls - tubes - pattern welded or fluid steel? Lower rib is pattern welded. 1892 or 1893 should have seen the end of the A&D APUN numbers.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Hmmm, I'll try to get a few better pictures since I'm really not sure. Thanks guys
I believe that this was marketed as the VL&D "Knockaround" or "Knockabout" gun, I can't remember which term they used. They went to Francotte boxlock in the early part of the last century, as it was the replacement for the Sauer model 1900 (sidelock) which they had marketed under that name up until that time...
Right, "Knockabout". VL&D's successor, Abercrombie & Fitch, continued to use that term--both for entry level Francottes, and later on (starting in the 60's, I think), for Zoli-Rizzini doubles.
The "Not For Ball" (note its Americanized,)The ELG in oval without crown & the A&D patent all indicate a build prior to 1900 or earlier than the Sauer series of KnockAbouts, not later.
Has the hinge pin actually been lost or is it still in place? Hopefully, the other parts once retained by the missing pins have not been lost. You should send it to a talented gunsmith who won't attempt to make a million dollar project out of it. My choice for someone who will not nickel and dime you to death, and will tell the truth about what actually needs to be done is Keith Kearcher in Bend, Oregon. Not only can he make new pins and clean and reassemble the gun if the parts are there, he is a barrel expert who can evaluate your gun for safe shooting.
The "Not For Ball" (note its Americanized,)The ELG in oval without crown & the A&D patent all indicate a build prior to 1900 or earlier than the Sauer series of KnockAbouts, not later.
Good catch. "Knockabout" was pretty much a generic name with both VL&D and A&F, applied to guns from different makers. Think "Field Grade" . . . but "Knockabout" sounds fancier.
Larry;
Do you know if perhaps VL&D sold guns under the KnockAbout name from both Francotte & Sauer at the same time. I was thinking they would not have used the same name simultaneously for two different guns, but then? Perhaps they did sell a sidelock & a boxlock both under the name Knockabout at the same time. I feel certain the gun in quesation does date beck into the 1800's but did they continue the basic gun to a later date.
as I recall, I have seen both. german prior to ww1 and Belgian afer ww1...
The photo below is a 12ga Knockabout that Bob Beach says was in the first batch imported by V L & D in 1905. As you can see not much engraving but excellent workmanship.
James is correct. Here are some additional details. The following is from a publication that I am preparing on the Francotte models.
"Knockabout – Prior to 1905 the VL&D Knock About model was made in Germany by the firm of J.P. Sauer & Son. In 1905 the Knock About began to be produced in Belgium by Auguste Francotte. VL&D importation of all Sauer shotguns ceased in 1904 and did not resume until 1926. The Sauer built Knock About was a sidelock gun while the Francotte gun was a boxlock model. Apparently VL&D wished to replace the Sauer Knock About with a similarly priced, utility grade, but well-constructed, gun. While VL&D chose Francotte to manufacture the replacement, there is at least one example of a Belgian-made VL&D marked Knockabout sidelock model that may have been received as a sample prior to the decision to import the Francotte boxlock.
The Francotte Knockabout was a hammerless Anson & Deeley boxlock and was available initially only as an extractor gun, but in 1905 the ejector model was added. The lockup system consisted of a double under-bolt, an exposed Greener cross-bolt and a doll’s head rib extension. Initially, this model was available only with a half pistol grip and the gauges offered were 12, 16, and 20 with the first 10 gauge being received in December 1906. Knockabout guns had barrels described in the catalog as being made of “Nimrod Steel”. Initially, the Knockabout was available in barrel lengths of 26, 28, and 30 inches in the 12 gauge with a very few 32 inch barreled guns received as well. The Knock About was available with 30 and 32 inch barrels in the 10 gauge. Weight was between 6 ¼ and 8 pounds. Retail prices before 1910 were: Ejector guns - $80 in 12, 16, 20, and 28 gauges and $85 in 10 gauge; Non-ejector guns - $60 in 12, 16, 20, and 28 gauges and $65 in 10 gauge."
Bob Beach
Compliments of Griffin & Howe, Inc.
Good stuff as usual, Bob. When did A&F start importing the Zoli-Rizzini doubles? Early 60's seems about right to me.
Larry and Bob, Francotte made Knockabouts were still in the racks at Abercrombie and Fitch when I was prowling the streets of Manhattan in 1961. All gauges were displayed and many, especially smallbores, were equipped with beavertail forends with a cut in the wood to allow access to the Anson forend release. We don't see many of these today because the prices were off the scale. $425 for the big guns and $485 for the 28 and .410. I'll let Bob tell us when the Rizzinis came on the market. Thanks, Bob, for letting me know that my 32" Knockabout serial number 82,517 is a bit scarce. Mine is the only one I've seen. One of these days, I'll get you to look it up for me and see whose gun it was. Bill Murphy
james-l;
What are the proof marks on your gun. Those on the gun in question certainly do not appear correct for a gun proofed 1905 or later.
Miller, here are the proofs on my Knockabout, notice that it has no nitro proofs, I guess they figured it was not necessary for us. It also has 2 5/8" chambers which was standard at the time for 2 3/4 " shells. This an unmolested 12ga 6 1/2 lb gun with 28" barrels, serial # 61414. According to my info the "not for ball" marking ended in 1897, plus there is too much engraving for a knockabout on the gun in question.
Larry and Bob, Francotte made Knockabouts were still in the racks at Abercrombie and Fitch when I was prowling the streets of Manhattan in 1961. All gauges were displayed and many, especially smallbores, were equipped with beavertail forends with a cut in the wood to allow access to the Anson forend release. We don't see many of these today because the prices were off the scale. $425 for the big guns and $485 for the 28 and .410. I'll let Bob tell us when the Rizzinis came on the market. Thanks, Bob, for letting me know that my 32" Knockabout serial number 82,517 is a bit scarce. Mine is the only one I've seen. One of these days, I'll get you to look it up for me and see whose gun it was. Bill Murphy
Bill, you're right about the Francottes getting pretty expensive . . . although my 1936 A&F catalog (Knockabout Ejector priced at $175) would indicate they were never all that cheap. But I think A&F went to the Zoli-Rizzini guns for the same reason Browning went to Miroku: guns from Belgium had become too expensive for a certain segment of their clientele.
Well sometimes we get kinda lost in the story. I went back to page 1 & looked some more. The Gun is not marked KnockAbout, nor did the original poster mention this name. Somewhere along the line it seems someone "Ass-U-Me"d KnockAbout.
James' gun has the crowned oval with ELG, is not marked "Not for Ball", but has bore & choke diameters marked. The gun in question does show VL&D on the top rib. I'm sticking my my opinion this gun was not built in 1905 or later so apparently VL&D did import Francotte made guns prior to 1905, just not marked KnockAbout.
PS; My Sauer made VL&D sidelock KnockAbout does have 2 3/4" chambers by actual measurement & is stamped 70 on the extractor face.
VL&D did import Francotte before 1905, I once owned a sidelock, # 18718 that was marked with their logo on the rib, it also had the "not for ball" marking on barrels,
Von Lengerke & Detmold began to import Francotte shotguns in 1889. You can find a brief history and a list of the models available through the years on my post in the FAQ section.
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=229207#Post229207 The shotgun in the original post appears to be a Quality "I" (not to be confused with the Grade No. 1). The characteristics include: light weight, Anson & Deeley action, Treble-Fast locking system (Purdey-type double under-lugs, an exposed Greener cross-bolt through a parallel rib extension), and intercepting sears. Most of the catalogs of the period describe this model as an ejector gun but my notes indicate that it was also made as an extractor gun as well. Right now I cannot locate the source of this except for the general statement in the 1896 VL&D catalog (page 12) which says that the lightweight models were available "both with and without automatic ejectors". As the basic lightweight model, the Quality "I" was likely the one to be most readily available as a non-ejector gun. One thing that appears certain is that the features of the particular models were not hard and fast. Just as with gun manufacturers today, models were changed as necessary to meet a price point or incorporate some improvement in appearance or function.
The serial number 20169 is too early to be recorded in our No. 1 VL&D ledger which was created in 1900 but a VL&D advertisement published in 1894 lists several Francottes that were being offered at reduced prices. Serial numbers 204xx, 206xx, 208xx are listed there along with 223xx. This suggests that the OP's gun, number 20169, was likely made between 1889 and 1894 but exactly what year I am uncertain.
As to the Zoli-Rizzini Knockabouts, the first Z-R Knockabout models were received at A&F in July 1961. All received in 1961 were DT non-ejector guns. At that time the Francotte Knockabout model, which was still available, sold for $425 for a DT with ejectors and $550 with a ST. The Z-R Knockabout had a retail price of $150 in 1961.
Bob, thanks for the info on Z-R.
