I took off the locks of my new gun to show how nicely made these locks are. Considering the gun has been around for 138 years, the workmanship, functionality and resistance to the elements and ravages of time these things can demonstrate is never less than breathtaking. I know modern machines can make parts to fantastic tolerances. But how much better than this can you get regardless of technology?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=...e=1&theater
This is from an 1885 L.C. Smith, much the same design as to sear spring, mainspring stirrup and bridle. A lot of work to make this lock.
To cut some costs in 1897, L.C. Smith did away with the block to hold the short leg of the mainspring and used a pin (screw post). This way the lock plate could be made the same thickness without having to mill away most of it to make the block.
I will make no comment on comparable quality as it always results in hate mail
Almost more amazing than the lock itself, is the skill with which the inletting was done. The perfect mirror image and cuts; true art.
Thanks for sharing.
Phil
As Derek and Clive would have said "That mainspring gives me the horn".
Well excuse me for showing it. But does yours shoot any better than this one? I don't see any more fancy machining on yours.
Plus I don't see why you had to bring that up, I just showed how they were both the same.
I don't thing there is much Fancy Machining on dig's lock
....fancy filing more like.
franc
That is a well put up gun you have there, Dig.
Small Bore;
Lovely mainspring with the taper of the limbs and gap clearance when compressed just perfect, not to mention the perfect polish.
Whilst not, the fit and finish of a Purdey, the photos show what excellent quality there there was in lower tier shotguns of the era and demonstrates what can be done by a craftsman who was taught to file level--usually in a workshop absent any machinery and electricity at that time. Maybe a treadle lathe and a "bow" drill if they were lucky.
Bv
Thanks for providing the photos.
JDW, no offence intended and thank you for showing the pictures, they are interesting and nicely illustrated.
I do get myself in to trouble any time I discuss quality and people start getting defensive and/or aggressive and territorial about the guns under discussion.
I'm not trying to score points for or against anyone's favourite thing for the sake of it. I try to be factual and make observations based on what is there to be seen and observed. Had you shown a photo of the internals of an American gun by the likes of Tonks, I would be equally effusive about the fantastic quality of that.
I hope this board is a useful resource for disseminating knowledge and information. In point of fact, the quality differential between the Smith and the Thorn are manifold and would be interesting to observe and discuss.
I'm not having ago at you personally. I apologise if it appeared to be so.
Plus I don't see why you had to bring that up, I just showed how they were both the same. [/quote]
The only similarity between those locks is that they are both bar action hammer locks. Kind of like saying a 1963 Ford Falcon & a 1963 Ferrari 250 GTO are the same because they are both front engine, rear wheel drive vehicles.
Let's see the inletting on the L.C. Smith!
I don't have the technical terminology or expertise that Bushveld expressed; all I know is I couldn't take my eyes off that mainspring.
Mike
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=...e=1&theaterAbove I have posted a link to a Purdey I have. Bushveld makes an interesting comment regarding fit and finish. I have to disagree.
There is very little either way between the two in terms of both. The thorn is dirty, as I just took it apart, the Purdey has been cleaned. The Purdey is a back-action as opposed to a bar action, but in terms of quality, they are on a par IMO.
Sorry I'm too technologically dim to post photos here of each lock side by side.
There is no question about the outside finish of your gun compared to most Quality F's, The Quality AA would stand out among any.
Of the internals working parts there is a great deal of hand work to fit either.
This particular Quality F, lowest grade made but the locks were built the same, cost $55 back then.
I understand you point, and was not comparing quality but how the locks were the same.
Locks are interesting to examine and speculate upon the skills of the maker.
Having made some replacement bridles for locks, I have come to respect the skill of the bridle maker and the bridle is one of the first, if not the first component of a fine lock that I examine to asses the skill of the lock maker.
In the two excellent examples that Mr. Haddock has provided (Thorn and later Purdey)if one examines the curved perimeter edges and more importantly the internal edges of the bridles that intersect with a "V" angle(tear drop openings and bridle split legs and so forth) the relative skill (and of course the time spent) is evident. It is a subtle difference but the filing of these V angle joints (that appear to have grown in place) is of great difficulty to do properly. Files small enough to do this work are not made and the craftman has to make tools to do this work. I have laboured and sweated over trying to make a bridle look as good as the Purdey Island Lock and have never made the grade--at least by my judgement.
Further it is one matter to have the front of the bridle V joints to look good and maybe perfect; but remove the bridle from a Purdey or Boss and the V angles will look perfect on the back side as well.
Having said all of this, the London best three do and did not have a cartel on quality. If you ever have an opportunity to examine a pre-WWI Midland Gun Company London pattern SLE, you will encounter such quality as well--even in the locks that were built by Midland and not the likes of the famous lockmakers to the London and Birmingham trade.
Of course I am biased and I admit to it, as to my mind a Island Lock Purdey hammergun is my ideal gun.
I have strayed from the subject here a bit and I ask for your indulgence, especially on a day where a left-handed American has bested the best in Scotland at one of the most difficult links in the world. Quality ran true.
The skill required to make a good lock always amazes me, especially those from an earlier time before specialized machinery replaced much of the specialized skills. This is from my W.H. Wilson, London, about two hundred years ago. To think that only a forge, file, chisel and perhaps a simple bow drill were the only tools available! Oh, perhaps they also had a hand tumbler mill. And to make both locks spitting images of each other! I cannot imagine such a level of craftsmanship. And it is amazing the lock was fully developed by the beginning of the nineteenth century!
Most interesting is the extra width given to the sear and tumbler for strength and durability. I believe the gun was made by Alexander Wilson, late of John Manton, whose workshop was at the same premises as W.H. Wilson's store. Relationship between them is not known.
Plus I don't see why you had to bring that up, I just showed how they were both the same.
"The only similarity between those locks is that they are both bar action hammer locks. Kind of like saying a 1963 Ford Falcon & a 1963 Ferrari 250 GTO are the same because they are both front engine, rear wheel drive vehicles.
Let's see the inletting on the L.C. Smith!" [/quote]
Not a back action (should have said hammer) but a 1908 Elsie R frame inletting. Don't see the Thorn has anything on the Elsie's inletting.
Say you want to see a back action main spring? 1882 Smith/Baker. It measures 15/32" wide.
2holer
I agree that the LC Smith example is cleanly inletted but if you can't see the difference in the complexity & execution of the inletting done on the W. Thorn with the inletting of the pierced bridle & the beds for the screw heads you clearly don't understand what you are looking at & what it takes to accomplish such work.
Well, ya see, Hunter Arms evidently didn't see the need to make things more complex than needed, but rather simple rugged and working. The more parts the more liability for breakage. I have six Elsies and have had zero problems with the locks.
The Elsie R frame I posted has only two screw heads in the bridle and if you look closely you will see the impressions in the wood. One is in the dark spot upper right: the other is obvious. The dark spot is where a little lube got on the wood and notice it is the shape of the bridle being closely fitted against the wood. So I would call that pretty good inletting work especially in a gun that costs far less.
What's the need for the wood being inletted into the pierced bridle anyway?
It is simply a matter of quality of work. Those who do not appreciate it, don't need it. I guess you fall into that category, which is fine. A two pin bridle is a feature of a cheaply made lock in general. Even three pins is pretty low grade.
I don't know why these discussions always seem to become so puffed chest 'my dad is better than your dad' in nature.
Yes, we know that cheap, simple, large limbed mechanisms still fire the gun and work for years and there is nothing wrong with them.
However, critical examination of all the locks posted will show very different levels of quality of work and finesse.
If 2holer appreciates rugged, then the Anson & Deeley should be his ideal but you can examine different A&D locks and see more quality and finesse in one (say, a best grade Westley) than another (say a cheap grade Midland Gun Co) - see, I chose two English examples so as not to upset anyone.
Brittany Man is not having ago at your gun, Just pointing out that the quality is what it is and that he can see it, while you cannot. The point of the forum is educational in part, here is a good opportunity.
I didn't wake up in the woods of northern Wisconsin expecting to see the internals of a Purdey lock and the comments of a guy who tries to make them. Thanks ,Dig and Bushveld, and please keep the photos and comments coming. This is the only way I will ever see the inside of fine gameguns and I appreciate it.
I too admire fine work. I have three English boxlocks (no English sidelocks; can't afford them) and quite often hold and admire the work and fine engraving.
I was commenting in response to the 'turned up nose' comments about the Elsies. Pip pip and tally ho chaps!
That W. Thorn is just stunning.
As posted by 2holer:
"What's the need for the wood being inletted into the pierced bridle anyway?"
The answer is that a properly inletted pierced bridle serves as an "anchor" to stabilize the lock and prevent movement of the lock within the inlet.
It also helps to strengthen the stock by the removal of no more wood than is necessary for the lock to function.
I don't see that pointing out the obvious differences between the Thorn & the LC Smith is any more than a comparison of quality levels. It is what it is and it's not intended to offend anyone!
"What's the need for the wood being inletted into the pierced bridle anyway?"
"The answer is that a properly inletted pierced bridle serves as an "anchor" to stabilize the lock and prevent movement of the lock within the inlet."
Well, I thought of that, but I own/have owned a number of much less expensive sidelocks; Elsies, Spanish, Italian and Belgian and observed no such movement. The only thing I see that could cause movement is loose pins/screws or poor inletting around the lock plate.
As far as offensive and statements made about one's person not intended to offend, go back and read.
OK 2holer, you are the expert, there is no quality difference and there is absolutely no merit in wasting time making gun locks or cutting inletting that is any better than third grade because it is a waste of effort.
Can we please stop being pointlessly thin skinned and defensive - as if comparing quality of bits of metal and wood is done to make you feel inadequate. Nobody has done that, if they hurt your feelings, they have pointed out they did not mean to. Let it drop man and get back to the reason we are here talking - about guns.
Making personal attacks based on exagerated false suppositions again are you?
I made a contributing comment about shifting locks in my last post and my ideas of what would make locks shift. What say you?
This is why I love to monitor this site:
Brilliance.
On parade every day.
Press on Dig. As evidenced by our last two presidential elections sometimes logic doesn't prevail.
It's kinda like jazz, if I have to explain it to you, you won't understand it.
Beyond the inletting, the scroll engraving is brilliant, as is the border engraving around the side of the action knuckle. And the mainspring and sear spring are really beefy! What would it cost to make that today, by hand? Thanks for sharing Dig.
I thought I would show you one of mine also. THese are beautiful locks from my Emil Warnant 16 ga Belgium Side x Side. Made about 1925 from what I can tell.
The English had some hard competitors in BElgium.
[img:left]
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Courtesy of Trevallion Trivia and Technicana
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/17647963 
Top - Small Rebounding lock
Lower - Large NON-Rebounding lock
More
http://www.wolverhampton-gunlocks.fslife.co.uk/ 
Joseph Brazier lock from "Ashes"
A pair of Joseph Brazier rebounding locks from 1868. Totally untouched (and uncleaned). Gun is #3 of set of three.
Sounds irreverent, but we can do equally good work today using modern means- EDM wire cutting can cut the flat pieces, including the bridle, EDM machining can form lock plates, including pinless ones, cleanly and accurately. It is expensive, but not as much as doing it by hand. I recently cut some lock parts for 4 locks, it cost 120 Euros, but the finishing time was cut by 80 per cent. The skill these days is in the design stage more than the execution since everything must be in the form of DXF files from a CAD program.
The above in no way detracs from the exemplary work in the pictured locks. Just reminding people that we can if we want to.
Posts of some very nice locks. I especially like the locks from the Thorn & the Brazier locks.
You have to admire the skills required to produce something like that using primarily hand tools & the attention to detail in areas of the gun that are rarely seen by anyone.
My concept of a work of art. I never saw anything like that when I took the required "Art Appreciation 101" in college.
