I am well aware that most admirer's of English side by side shotguns prefer a straight grip and splinter forearm; however, there are some guns out there with pistol grips, pow grips and beavertails (many of which were made for the American mkt). Knowing that straight grips are preferred, should there be any devaluation to these guns which have been 'Americanized'? I believe it is likely cost prohibitive to have them converted and if one was trying to sell one of these guns I think it might be pretty tough as I would suspect the market target audience would be very small. For me to buy one with a beavertail forearm and a pistol grip stock I would have to be offered a significant discount, say 20-30% as compared to a similar gun with a traditional straight stock and splinter forearm. Any thoughts? Agree or disagree?

I don't know about beavertails on guns, especially English. Not my style, but I have quite a few with pistol grips or similar. These include Greener Monarch Imperial, Walter Betts pigeon , Cashmore Nitro, Cashmore Imperial sidelock [proofed for 1 1/4 oz.] and probably a few others. To change these would diminish them. They were ordered for a purpose.

buzz, for what it's worth, I agree with you completely except that I would want a much, much greater discount than 20-30% for the ST PG beavertail forend. A few years ago I was offered a relatively new, well-maintained H&H with the above configuration by the widow of the guy who had it made to his specs. She couldn't understand why it was hard to sell since her husband, an avid shooter, had it specially made. But the damned thing was pit-ugly and H&H explained to me, when I telephoned them about converting ST to DT, that it was simply not economical to try to do that - they clearly didn't even want to deal with the wood.

I may be all wet about this but if you want an "Americanized" gun, why pay the London premium? I'm sure others with more experience will opine, but personally I wouldn't touch a modern London gun that has been Americanized with a barge pole. An older classic might be different, but I've no experience with that market.

That little voice inside you that calls, "Caution!" speaks the truth!

I wouldn't want either of those features on a Brit game gun but on a waterfowler or pigeon gun, Brit or otherwise, they do have utility. I think this is yet another double gun topic that evades generalizations.

I have a 1929 Purdey that was made for sale here in the U.S. and sent to Abercrombie and Fitch.It originally was fitted with a pistol grip and tight chokes.
Years later it was returned back to Purdey and a spectacular straight grip made for the gun.
I shoot with a friend who reguarly shoots a Woodward Pigeon gun with a pistol grip and beavertail. As well he has a very nice Boss similar.
Also another friend who shoots a Purdey bar action hammer gun with a beautiful Prince of Wales flat grip.

I can understand why someone would want a straight grip on a double trigger gun as I prefer this myself. I can also understand the aesthetic reserve in regard to a full beavertail on a 12 ga.
However; To me a semi-beavertail forend makes sense on anything smaller than a 20ga from a practical point of being able to grasp the gun with your off hand.
I have an AyA two barrel set in 20 and 28 Ga, both set of which are fitted with semi-beavertail forends, and I can't imagine trying to shoot this gun with splinter forends.
Jim

Mike, There is no question that a Purdey with beaver tail and pistol grip can be converted....the problem is the cost. Paul Hodgins , who is rather expensive, told me it would cost around $15,000 to do such conversion if a new stock had to be made. He said he could possibly cut a pistol grip off an orig pg stock but it would require recheckering because the checker pattern is different, and might render the grip diameter too small to be sound. So a new stock might have to be made, plus new or altered trigger guard. In terms of forearm he said the metal is not the same for beaver tail as splinter and this would have to be changed plus there is a gap between the barrel and beaver tail not present on a splinter, so a new forearm would likely have to be made rather than just turning the bt into a splinter. Sounds pretty darn expensive to me even for a Boss or Purdey or H&H!! Cost prohibitive IMHO.

It depends on the buyer. Today, there is a demand for sxs guns for Sporting Clays and the side events for these at registered shoots. The key factor is barrel length. If they are 30" or 32", these guns will sell at a good price.

The problem is that many British guns made for the American market with single triggers, pistol grips, and big beavertail forends were built in the '60's with 26" and sometimes the odd 28" barrels, but hardly ever 30's or 32's. Those short barreled guns are real dogs to try and sell for what the equivalent traditional game gun would bring.

But I would just love me a Purdey with a nice capped pg, st, and semi-bt with 32" barrels set up for clays, at a 50% discount!
JR

Good points, JR. BTFE/PG on a 30 or 32" gun is a very different proposition than on a 26 or 28" gun.

I had a Parker DHE SG DT vent rib with 32" barrels and BT forend. Great gun.

The problem when buying used guns is that the selection is sometimes limited. Trends and taste change over decades and these old gun last a century or more if take care of. So like all fashions if you wait long enough anything might come back into demand. If you do not like what you see keep looking.

Short barreled gun could be sleeved if the barrels are out of proof and too thin. Then longer barrels can in effect be created. As to restocking or altering a gun stock I pass unless the gun cries out to you. Dropping major money into what is in effect is just a high dollar shooter, not a highly collectable gun, is a very poor investment unless you intend to own it for life. And for those who have never tried to restock a gun the for end is just as hard and takes just as much time as the butt stock. In fact often one with ejectors is a very major job for a professional and almost un-doable to the amateur.

Until you started using the trigger, you would.

Best,
Ted

English guns were made with three distinct types of pistol grip in addition to the familiar straight stock.. Churchill in his book, How to Shoot, defines them as; quarter,Half and Full. Whilst full pistol grip is mostly seen on pigeon and wild fowl guns they are also found on game guns.
On 31 August 1987,Sothebys sold a pair of Churchill Premiere 12G guns belonging to H.R.H. The Prince of Wales that, have full pistol grip stocks. Guns with pistol grip stocks are seen in use in vintage U.K. photographs/book illustrations.
Beaver tail fore ends were made only to special order.

Back in the 60's it was what the American market wanted , in the late 70's we were buying them back and re-forending them to sell on the UK market . I think it is all part of some dastardly plan to keep stockers in work .

Gunman,

In the US during the 50's & 60's the writer Jack O'Connor had a huge following and was quite an influence on all things re. shotguns & rifles. He promoted short barreled shotguns & SxS guns with beavertail forends, pistol grips & single triggers as well as classic stocked rifles & especially if they were .270 WCF caliber.

I read everything he wrote. Unfortunately, I later found out he wasn't right about everything but he was spot on about the .270 WCF rifle with a classic stock.

Shooting an English gun with a PG and BTFE is kind of like kissing through a screen door; something just not right about it.

I dunno - if you are shooting this 10lb WC Scott 10-bore, it would be nice to have something to hold onto
WC Scott

Jack wasn't the only one. Roger Barlow and John Amber both come to mind on the shotgun thing.

Jack also wanted YOU to buy a rifle in .270. He was perfectly happy with his 30-06.

Best,
Ted

Notice that the English guns that were mentioned by Roy are, for the most part, guns designed to handle heavier loads. There is a good reason for this, not lost on the British. Heavy recoil is much harder to handle with a straight grip. Those who espouse straight grips for all S X S guns are ignorant of this fact. Ignorance is simply lack of knowledge. Anyone who has tried using heavy pigeon or duck/goose loads in a straight gripped gun soon learns that it is impossible for the average man to recover from the recoil of the first shot and get the second barrel on target as well as he should be able to. Pistol grips allow much more control during recoil, and the second shot is able to be brought to bear with much less effort. Nash B., as we know, had Bo Whoop built with a straight grip, but he was a big man with big, strong hands. Look at photos of him in his prime and this is easy to see. I can tell a huge difference when shooting my straight gripped A grade 32" Fox. I'm not a big man, nor do I have exceptionally strong hands, but I'm no wimp, either. I tried shooting a 200 bird state championship sporting tournament once with that Fox. Never again!

As additional proof, consider how many heavy recoiling double rifles you have ever seen built with straight grips. There may be a few around, but I've never seen one. And wouldn't buy one if I did.

SRH

Perhaps I don't know enough to understand the problem, but what is wrong with double triggers and a pistol grip? I have several doubles and even an O/U (model 32) with both a pistol grip and double triggers and don't notice any trouble.

Not an English gun obviously but built on that "pattern", and I don't think it is too horrible to look at.



CHAZ

I have several of each grip style and I like them all, in context, but I find my wrist gets sore in the first few weeks of the grouse season from carrying a straight grip "at the ready" for hours every day. It's less of a problem with a POW or pistol grip because the wrist is not "cocked" as much in an unnatural position. I suppose the English didn't walk all day carrying their guns at port arms so the straight grip was OK.

I agree, when walking at the 'ready' all day long, a pistol grip is much more comfortable. I have several straight gripped guns that I toy with in the Grouse woods, but every year I find myself going back to my Lightning Browning 20 gauge with pistol grip because I shoot it better than anything else I own.......it's a killer, for sure!

[quote=Stan]

"Notice that the English guns that were mentioned by Roy are, for the most part, guns designed to handle heavier loads. There is a good reason for this, not lost on the British. Heavy recoil is much harder to handle with a straight grip. Those who espouse straight grips for all S X S guns are ignorant of this fact. Ignorance is simply lack of knowledge. Anyone who has tried using heavy pigeon or duck/goose loads in a straight gripped gun soon learns that it is impossible for the average man to recover from the recoil of the first shot and get the second barrel on target as well as he should be able to. Pistol grips allow much more control during recoil, and the second shot is able to be brought to bear with much less effort."


Some valid points here by Stan. I could be happy with an open style pistol grip or better yet a Woodward style POW on all of my SxS guns. Another point not mentioned here is that an open pistol grip tends to bring the gun up to the face during the mounting process better than an English style grip.

As to the beaveartail forends, I don't care for them but I can see some utility in them on a small bore gun for those with big hands.

Interestingly enough, Robert Churchill had good things to say about beavertail forends in his book "Game Shooting". One of the better books written on the subject regardless of if you buy into his shooting technique or not.

I'm the same way, Buzz. Love my SxS's but my 20 ga Superpose is a meat-maker. I can kill birds and clays with my eyes closed.

Maybe I'm in the minority, but for one hand carry a straight grip feels more comfortable for me than a PG.

Jay

Stan is completely correct on the pistol grip. If you want to control your gun better, a pistol grip has it over the straight grip every time, heavy load or light.

There are beavertail forends, which are what you see on the Browning BSS (not the Sporter), which are huge oversized and similar to a boat paddle (no offense to your 30" BSS target-killing gun, Stan), and there are semi-beavertail forends, which are low profile, trim, slim and very nice when executed correctly. The Parker Reproductions and the CSM RBL's both have near-perfect semi-beavertails, and they not only work great for control and comfort for the leading hand, they look good too. All my sxs's have semi-beavertails and pistol grips. But, to each his own.
JR

I read somewhere (Zutz?) that pistol grips cause your back hand to be lower relative to the barrels. Since having your hands in the same plane promotes a better mount and more accurate pointing, it is good to pair a BTFE with a PG, as it cause the front hand to be closer to the same plane as the back hand.

I agree that there are a lot of unattractive BTFEs out there but a well executed semi-BTFE can be graceful and functional. Dennis Smith is stocking a 7.5 lb Brit boxlock for me with a semi-BTFE and a Woodward grip - seems like a perfect set up for clays and some waterfowl.

The choice of pistol grip or straight stock on game as opposed to pigeon or wild fowl guns is matter of personal preference. It would seem that some members of the British Royal family prefer pistol grip guns. The late much maligned Frank Malin,of Melborne, Ontario built a splendid presentation gun in 1981 made to the personal specifications of H.R.H Prince Charles. The gun was a gift on the occasion of princes marriage to Lady Diana.This gun has a pistol grip.
Many pictures of the late King George V1 show him game shooting with a gun having a pistol grip. Many years ago I had the privilege of viewing the guns in the Royal collection at Sandringham. There were guns with all types of stocks including one/pair with a Rhino horn stocks. To my surprise There was also a Greener wild fowl gun, king George V1 was a keen wild fowler.

No offense taken, John. I know that the BSS beavertail is ugly as sin. I also know that one can be made that isn't. The Fox I referenced earlier in this thread has just such an one.







The important thing to me, when designing a semi-beavertail, is to have the profile view look like the bottom of the f/e continues the line that the bottom of the receiver has established, and when viewed from the bottom, it is not excessively wide (like a beaver's tail ).

SRH

Yes gang, we all think beaver tails and pistol grips are appropriate for certain guns. But the original post dealt with the English game gun and whether or not a beaver tail forearm and a pistol grip stock should diminish their value, because it is clear most people who are in the market for an English game gun prefer a straight grip and a splinter forearm. It's nice that many people here don't mind a pistol grip and beaver tail on their Fox or their Model 21's. These are American guns and even the BSS was made for the American mkt. it's nice that you like a pg and bt on your American guns, it really is, and to be frank, I prefer a bt on a Model 21 too. But what about your British game gun?? I'm guessing most of you would turn up your nose at a Boss with a full pistol grip and canoe for a forearm unless you were getting it at half price. Am I wrong??

Isn't it a beautiful day? Just look how blue the sky is!

JMO of course

have a day

Dr.WtS

Wanko,Wanko,Wanko... that about covers it.

I'll bet there is a glass case in a dim corner of the Flat Earth Society's headquarters that has an English single trigger displayed in it.

Not installed in a gun, mind you, just the single trigger, ripped out by the roots and replaced in some old gun by a good English gunsmith, with a proper, double trigger.

Which, is better.

Unless, you believe the Earth is flat.

Best,
Ted

WonkoThe Insane: Aw Shucks.....Have you been toying with the Phencyclidine again.....??

I think I will take a dinner hour and read this thread. Screwing with an ugly gun just because it is ugly goes against my feelings about gunmakers versus shooters. The shooters and the gunmakers voted "ugly". If we don't like it, it's still two against one. I think we should take a second look at a British gun with beavertail and pistol grip before we mess with it. Slimming down the forend would be one thing that can be done without destroying anything. Not that I own a British gun with a pistol grip, but I do lust after Woodwards with Prince of Wales grips. I did order a CSMC Inverness with a Prince of Wales grip when a straight grip was available.

Single trigger, no. BT forend, not even on an American field gun.

POW grip, of course!

In my experience, these particular permutations do not reduce the price at which a gun will sell. It is a case of finding someone who likes them.

Well stated and true, Dig.
JR