Gents,

I need to have to SxS barrels slow rust blued. Who does the best hand polishing and slow rust bluing that could beat European Quality. I had experience with famous shop in Bloomfield, NY. Their work did not impress me.

Any suggestions?

With all the best.

thekhan,
Try New England Custom Guns.
Mike

The Europeans are famous for keeping secrets of their best practices, whereas our custom gun guilds share methods quite commonly. Some continental gunmakers are able to come up with rust bluing that is almost glossy, whereas what I see on this side of the pond is usually quite matte. Good luck finding someone who knows the secrets to do otherwise...Steve

You might check examples done by Sergey Lyalko in Natick, MA
http://www.rustbluing.com/index.html

When polishing for rust bluing,generally worn 320 grit(maybe 400 grit)cloth is used(by hand).If the barrels are highly polished with "rouge" on a polishing wheel, the bluing solution won't "bite"(especially on hardened steel).Furthermore, the rusting action of the solution will produce a somewhat matt finish anyway.This is the normally desired finish.Some people may wax/polish rustblued barrels for a shiny finish, not I.
Mike

Khan;


View this link: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...&PHPSESSID=

You will see that a participant "CJO" has submitted photos of a gloss finish gun he has blacked. One of the partcipants of this discussion is also "SDH" which is Steven Dodd Hughes. Give SDH a call and see who CJO is and if he will black a set of barrels for you. From the photo the barrels look almost like a London or Birmingham blacking.

I have done considerable study on this subject as well as technical experiments and actual blacking. As a result I have determined how I believe the English get the gloss finish as I have been able to do it. (I do not do work for others) The success at gloss finish is in the majority "the process" and the technique practiced. Of course one has to have a formula that will black, but whilst I lived in England I have seen gloss results from several different people using different formulas.

To produce a lovely gloss finish that looks perfect even in sunlight takes a lot of time and experience, and no wonder such a finish can cost upwards to 1,000 pounds sterling in UK.

Bv

Those pics of the Holland make me green with envy. Any additional comments or secrets would be hugely welcomed!

Most of us on this side of the pond that do quality rust blueing, often rust blue barrels with a high gloss deep black finish at the customers request, for those willing to pay for it........

Gents, F.Y.I., it's not rocket science and any tradesman worth his salt can do it.....IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE WHICH CONTINENT THE TRADESMAN LIVES ON.

Very nice job on that AH Fox.
Did you do the work? I am wanting to get my daugthers 20ga Fox barrels rust blued.

greypartridge:

Yes....thanks for your comments. Send me a PM on your Fox barrels.

After looking at Doug's work I think he just showed the Brits that they don't have anything over us.

By jove, he's got it; and in America at that.

Bv

PA24 That is a superb deep black color that you obtained. Anyone who desires that finish should be willing to pay for it. If not they should keep to modern guns that can be hot dipped for a faster job at less cost.

I just don’t understand you folks over there and this rust black or blue thing there is positively no secret about the whole process. Rust colouring is not what we would call a straight forward industrial process it is more an artisan process that consists of trial and error producing skill in the person who does it, so it makes no difference on what side of the pond you where born only how much practice and effort you are prepared to put in to perfecting the process for your self, and if there is a secret that is it.
The formula secrets went out of the window when R.H. Angier a country man of yours published his work “Firearms Bluing & Browning” in 1936 incidentally still in print today and very informative it is to.
So if you want to try your luck purchase a copy it is not expensive locate a good laboratory chemical supplier, but one word of advice keep well away from “Mercuric Chloride” until you have gained some experience or the only thing that will be turning blue/black will be you after all life is extinct.

PA: We need some tutorial on how to achieve those kind of results...it usually turns out matte in so many instances. Help us with the process, if you are willing...Steve

Hi Steve.

Now to give a tutorial on how to “Rust Blue” if we look at it in a wider context there are folks who do this work for a living on your side of the pond and also here for that matter, so I have no wish to take the bread out of their mouths as we say here in Britland.
But I can see no reason why I can give some information on how to get the basics right so the first thing is to purchase Angiers book on Amazon at the moment a hard back reprint is selling for £8 sterling (about $12), now even if you have no intention of doing the work your self the information it contains on how to go about things is priceless.
Now I do not know how things are with regards to encouraging American Citizens to purchase toxic chemicals with all the disposal ramifications they bring with them. So I will give the location and page of the formulas I personally use in the book.
Word of advice do not start by rust bluing your favourite gun or your most expensive vintage Brit gun in your collection either walk first run later. So what to practice on well that is the easy part 1/8inch mild steel 2 inches wide about 30 inches long strait if possible the length is to give you the experience of handling 30 inches of hot metal without burning your self and of course you have to polish the surface to the correct finish to start with I take the surface to a final grit of 600 wet and dry paper sorry I have no Idea what the US equivalent to that would be.
The name of the process is “SLOW Rust Bluing” some how slow has disappeared over the years and that is the first thing to take note of, the slower the rust forms the finer the surface rust particles are and the easier it is to obtain a good gloss.
Now because Britland is surrounded by vast amounts of water we have a “Maritime” climate damp and wet so unprotected steels rust extremely easily so need for a damp box to put the barrels in so I have no experience at all about using one so I am no help there.
The formulas I use are
Page 89 C20 Swiss Black
Page 83 Formula K Birmingham Black also good for Damascus twist barrels
for Browning though you do not boil the barrels of course.
Page 72&73 Express bluing all done in about half an hour though extremely toxic DEFINITELY NOT FOR THE BEGINER

Now you must degrease the barrels well my personal preference is a strong solution of Caustic Soda (Sodium Hydroxide)
Now what ever formula you choose to use you must apply it sparingly and as even as you can trying not to overlap too much and you MUST use gloves at all times for two reasons one to keep the chemicals of your skin and two keep your skin away from the barrels so you don’t leave fingerprints.
Use distilled or de-mineralised water to boil the barrels in I always give the barrels a good 20 minuets boiling. My source of water is from a de-humidifier we use in our wet winters I keep a couple of gallons in plastic bottles.
Now the all important carding of the rust after boiling.
To obtain a semi mat finish I card the rust with a fine wire brush driven by a polishing head (fine carding brushes are available from gunsmith’s sundries suppliers) this method speeds up the process but the finish is not as good as using fine steel wool.
I use semi mat barrels for pigeon shooting because hi gloss barrels reflect the light and it is as good as waving a flag saying I am here!!!
The more glossy finish is obtained by using Steel Wool 000 grade or 0000 if you can get it but you must remove its protective oil finish first I soak in Petrol or what we call white spirit.
Now by using fine steel wool you impart a finer finish as you rub to remove the rust after boiling. Though this method is far slower and requires more effort on your part if a gloss finish is what you want that is the way to go.
It all sounds so easy when written down but you must keep in mind that there are so many formulas because not all metals are the same and what formula works on one set of barrels may not work as well on another so you will develop the experience to make a good job of things in time.

Good luck

I agree with what damascus has posted and will add my own findings as well.

I polish to 600grit if I want a gloss finish, wire wheel with a worn fine wheel and oil when at 320 grit or so to show any oddities, then proceed through to the finer grits.Using a good backer is required at all times to your edges remain crisp. I degrease first with chlorinated break cleaner(nasty nasty stuff) then using acetone. I wear cotton gloves throughout the rusting and carding process. I use commercial rust blue solutions, but have played with Angier long ago and may again. We use one of his solutions when browning.

The level of gloss VS matte finish is controlled by the following factors. Degree of polish, strength of acid solution, length of time exposed to acid on each application, Ambient temperature and humidity. The metal composition is a factor as well, but is not one you can control.

If I want a high gloss finish I take care to keep my rusting cycles very short. Usually under 2 hours the first cycle then much reduced, 30 minutes or so, further reducing as I go to every 15 minutes or so. I count the time from when the acid is applied and it is always applied to cool barrels. I card with 0000 steel wool that comes de-greased when I buy it. This method takes lots of passes. I would say on average at least 12-15, if not more. It also seems to work best on older steels with lower nickel and chromium content. I find some of the more modern steels require a more aggressive approach to get a deep color.

Just ways of doing things. As always, your mileage may vary.
Steve

It been mentioned a little, but I think Doug's nice work has quite a bit to do with the prep he does before he starts to blue the barrels. Some mirror surfaces have good finish application, but reflect ripples and distortion.

That is correct Craig....I don't use any wheels, buffers or power tools of any kind, all my polishing is by hand to the level required by the customer based on his requested finish. I have my own way of preparing barrels, blacking/blueing and finishing barrels which I have learned "by doing" just like anybody else.

Anybody can rust barrels, it is the preparation that is labor intensive. Just like painting a car or airplane, the better the preparation and details, the better the final finish.

Preparation and detailing is the hardest part of refinishing barrels. Since this is the hardest part, and very hard on your fingers, in many shops this is left to the lowest man on the totem pole sorry to say.

Somehow in our modern world, we have kicked hand craftsmanship to the curb in favor of the almighty dollar/pound sterling/euro/yen etc.

Granted, the market for more expensive hand craftsmanship with quality refinishing is not nearly as large as the "cheap and dirty" process.......

Damascus(above) refers to Swiss Black which I agree. There are two of these formulas and I like the one with alcohol in lieu of acid. This is the exact same formula that Willi Barthold uses in his now classic (German language) textbook on gunmaking.

I agree with Damascus, PA24, and SKB as each has important points that I have also found to be true. Short rust times are very important, proper preparation is very important, carding methods are very important. I clean and degrease with full strength "Purple Power" Industrial strength cleaner between each coating--it only take 10 minutes to do this and you will be amazed at the results over what you have done before. When I have done the last carding of however many I do (usually more than 10) I clean with Purple Power and dry before oiling. When cleaning with Purple Power or any other cleaner, rinse in cold running water. Do not under any circumstances use hot water--the barrels will rust before your have walked back to you shop from your cleaning area.

With Swiss Black formula 4.5 minutes of boiling in distilled water--max for me. Over boil and you have trouble with rusting.

Make propane gas]burner that will put out so much heat (BTU'S) that you can raise 3 gallons of water from 80degrees F to boiling in 10 minutes. If when you place a cold barrel into your boiling tank and the boiling of the water dies away--you do not have enough heat--make a bigger burner.

I made my boiling tank of copper to eliminate all the rust by products of carbon steel tanks. Some barrel blackers do not like stainless steel tanks due the formula they use. See what works best for you.

Only preparing the surface only up to 320 grit emery cloth is an old wives tale. I go to 600 grit or more. If you are going to do best quality work the barrels must look best quality in preparation.

If you want to see the difference between a matte finish and gloss finish, examine them under a microscope. The matte finish will look like the surface of the moon where the rust formula has worked. Light cannot reflect from these pits you will see under a microscope, to provide a gloss finish. I keep a microscope in my shop(covered well) as it is very useful for a craftsman to have.

Do not mistake that you must see red/orange rust before the rusting cycle is complete. Yellowish or no rust color at all (only drab smokey color may be enough) may be all you need to reach to with your particular formula. Formula's seem to matter, but not that much in the overall scope of things. What matters most is what Damascus, SKB and PA24 have referenced.

I hope this is helpful for you lads.

Bv

Nice job. They look fantastic!

Mr. Khan sent me his two sets of Winchester Model 21 barrels about two weeks ago as a result of this thread. Each set of barrels is from a different Model 21 that he has, one is 28" and the other is 30", both circa early 1940's guns.

All polishing is by hand.

As requested on this forum, via PM, I am posting the before pictures and the in process pictures and finally of course the finished barrels.




BEFORE, AS RECEIVED....4 pictures....









IN PROCESS....4 pictures....

FINISHED BARRELS....6 pictures

Beautiful work, Doug! Seems like everything you touch ends up great. Thanks for posting these pictures. I think you've got the high gloss rust bluing down to a fine art.

nice work.

Absolutely beautiful. Equal to Johnson.

John Moses Browning would be pleased that you live in Utah.

Bv

Well done. Looking at the result you never think of the condition that they came from.

Please tell me that the owner intends to replace that Bradley bead with a real ivory bead. One of my pet peeves is to see a classic gun with a plastic glow worm or one of those fake ivory on a stick sights. They look OK on a Remington 1100 Skeet gun but not so much on a nice double.

I wish those barrels were for my gun and Mr. Khan had mine. Nice work Doug. That's beautiful.

Doug what do you use to bring the barrel ends back to white? Steve

Blocked very lightly with 3M Wet or Dry metal paper, 600 grit, then 1000.



Joe Woods, ed good, bushveld, KY Jon, J.R.B.---thank you all for your comments and feedback, very much appreciated.

Best Regards,

Doug;

Jack Rowe, late of Birmingham gun trade, believes that rust blacking formula that contain nitric acid will not produce gloss finish. What is your experience in this regard.

Regards;
Bv

Bv,

I would agree with Jack Rowe after many various experiments with all types of blacking formula's over the years. I think nitric acid formula's are good for mild etching, but as a result they degrade the gloss finish.

Bv, I have a couple of my own formulas that I developed by trial and error years ago, with some old junk barrels, and they do not include nitric or hydrochloric acids.

Best Regards,

From Des Barnes book "Amateur Gunsmithing" , His rust bluing solution :

Nitric acid 10ml, copper sulphate 10g, distilled water 40ml.

I have used this and it produces a nice finish, not an exhibition grade gloss finish , but who needs that.

Those barrels look fantastic Doug. Have you done any Damascus barrels?

One of the finest formulas for obtaing very high gloss finish is Swiss Black (Beutel) formula because it contains no Nitric or Hydrochloric Acid so it does not attack the metal surface too aggressively. Hence you end up with finer rust particles and only extremely fine surface pitting. Also you can adjust the aggressiveness of the formula by adjusting the amount of Alcohol used this allows for humidity and temperature variations. Though it takes a lot of passes to obtain a rich dark colour hence the high cost of having barrels blued this way.

Doug, I LIKE your work, brudda!

Damascus;

In the Swiss Black formula, I assume that you mean to add more Alcohol when ambient humidity is very high????? I have been using 95% grain Alcohol (made for human consumption)in my Swiss Black formula what type of Alcohol do you use for this formula? I have thought of trying 91% Isopropyl Alchol.

Bv

Hi Bushveld

I always add about 5% more Alcohol to the formula because I live in the “Cheshire Gap” here in Britland which is more or less at sea level and facing the Irish Sea, so the atmosphere is always high in moisture and with the warmer weather of summer the rusting can be far too rapid.
The Alcohol I use is obtained from a Laboratory Chemical suppliers under its Lab name of Ethanol Absolute.

Per Angier-- adding about 1-2% Ammonium CHLORIDE increases the black of the finish. I use it as an additive in my Baker modified solution.

Thanks Keith, yes I've refinished quite a few damascus barrels over the years, both blacked and browned.

Best Regards,

After seeing pictures of Doug's work, I requested him to help me with barrel bluing. He was kind enough to take the job. I must say that he hand polished the barrels and did superior quality work in quick turn around time. He is exceptionally professional and courteous and I would highly recommend him to anyone who would like to have quality bluing done. THANKS DOUG!!!

You can't buy advertising like that!...Geo