Dear Friends and Fellow Shooters,

I'm writing this note today as a letter of gratitude for the friendships I've made on this forum, many of which have become frequent phone calls and personal bonds with the wonderful group of people that make up this board. Unfortunately, this note is a letter that is regrettably "goodbye for now" because I cannot participate on this forum any longer.

As some of you already know, I'm in a profession that requires not just integrity, but a professional record that is void of any friction with anyone. I help companies during tough times to make the right choices about risk, acquisition, staffing and legal issues that require a level of trust and respect in the industry. Many times, my prospective employers will perform due diligence by looking at anything written about me on the Internet to insure that every area of my life is handled in an above board manner.

Over the past couple of years I've continuously reduced the amount of friendly communications on the general discussion board because I've drawn the ire of a member on this board that I do not know personally, nor have I corresponded with via phone or personal email. This individual goes by the nom de plume of HomelessjOe. Because of this individual's repeated comments on the general forum that have always danced narrowly on the side of personal threats to harm or outright accusations of unfair trade or outright disparaging remarks, I have left that forum for discussion altogether. The deciding line was a post a few weeks ago where we were trying to assist a new member who had an old belgian double that he wanted to determine if it was safe for shooting. HomlessjOe suggested that he'd like me to fire it with a 3" magnum proof load personally, one of those subtle ways where this individual would enjoy harm coming to others. There have been many, many encounters that I've ignored on a great many issues by HomelessjOe. I retreat from this individual because there is no "win" scenario here, all that can be done is harm my ability to earn a living through slurs and accusations from a complete stranger hiding behind a keyboard anonymously.

The remaining forum that I've used is the for sale forum. I've regularly and consistently paid Dave Weber for the services of using that forum as can be seen by the $10 payments to Dave that I've sent many times. As some of you know, I need to sell many of my shotguns and I use this forum to provide excellent guns and what I know to be fair prices. Work has been slow due to the economy and my 4 year old daughter has bone tumors that require treatment. My insurance is mediocre and therefore the bills are quite high as of recently. The sale of some of my guns purchased in better times was to assist me in taking care of some of these unintended expenses at Northwestern and Children's Hospital. Unfortunately, I cannot use that forum any longer either because of the ongoing harassment by HomelessjOe. Some examples he has done of the hundreds of posts targeting my ads:

When I posted an item he placed comments on 35 other for-sale items so that my listing immediately disappeared from the first page of the for-sale section.
Repeatedly has appraised the items I have for sale, always at 1/4 to 1/3 of what my fair asking price is in order to harm my listings
Has called me numerous derivatives of "a-hole" on my for sale listings in an irrational and unsolicited manner in order to harm my good name
Has always cast a cloud over my fine guns trying to put them in disrepute erroneously, which has disrupted my sales and harms their sale price
Has ignorantly made claims that my guns are dangerous or otherwise not worthy for sale harming the overall faith a buyer has in my listing

I believe I've always offered things at a fair price and could illustrate three guns I listed here that HomelessjOe thought were worthless garbage and actively destroyed on the for sale section. An Osborne, a Mortimer and an Ugartechea. In all three cases, my asking price on this forum was LESS than the cash I was given by Cabelas, who eventually purchased them and marked them up for resale. So not only are my guns good values in direct contravention to HomelessjOe's harassment, but a large dealer bought them for more than my asking price here to resell them at 50% markup. Here are the guns that used to be mine that I sold to Cabelas after HomelessjOe harassed me and my ads on this forum as examples:

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Mortimer-Son-Boxlock-Ejector-12-Gauge/1394300.uts?Ntk=GunLibrary&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch.cmd%3Fform_state%3DsearchForm%26N%3D0%26Ntk%3DGunLibrary%26Ntt%3Dmortimer%26x%3D0%26y%3D0&Ntt=mortimer (I was asking $1600)

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Ugartechea-Model-SLE-12-Gauge/1394293.uts?Ntk=GunLibrary&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch.cmd%3Fform_state%3DsearchForm%26N%3D0%26fsch%3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DGunLibrary%26Ntt%3Dugartechea%26x%3D0%26y%3D0%26WTz_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-Gun%2BLibrary&Ntt=ugartechea (I was asking $2700)

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Gun-Library/Hoffman-Estates-Gun-Library|/pc/103792680/c/105940080/Charles-Osborne-BLE-12-Gauge/1335350.uts?destination=%2Fbrowse.cmd%3FcategoryId%3D105940080
(I was asking $2300)

So the second point of my departure from this board is that there is no point to advertise a quality gun at a fair price because the harassment in the for sale section is not conducive to selling a gun. The behaviors expressed violate the terms of service of the forum, violate Internet stalking laws in many states, and are grounds for civil damages when someone intentionally seeks to harm someone else financially, justified by their own irrational malice.

The last point is that I'm actually afraid of this person, HomelessjOe. I've seen caustic conversations in the misfires section (I do not participate, just observe) where HomelessjOe, who always remains anonymous, has taken comments from others he dislikes and SENT EMAILS TO THEIR EMPLOYERS in an attempt to GET THEM TERMINATED FROM THEIR PROFESSIONS. Friends, this is exceedingly dangerous behavior. Can you imagine the possible chance of someone trying to take physical retribution when an Internet stalker gets a person fired from their employer? All of this is too crazy and points to a serious mental illness that is permitted to be expressed on what should be a fun, informative and harmless internet forum. This is not fun, it is not moderated, and it is beyond the pale.

I've asked Mr. Dave Weber dozens of times to deal with this individual directly and I get nothing more than occasional removal of his unsolicited posts from the forum after they've been viewed and responded to by others countless times.

In closing, goodbye for now to my friends and thank you for your kind comments and support for my little girl that is going through so much right now.

If anyone wishes to get ahold of me, you can at any time.

Regards,

Troy (aka Rookhawk)
Dtroymoritz at gmail dot com

What a shame. I have always wondered how joe was not banned from this site a long time ago, for no other reason other than his interfering in the for sale section.

People are more than welcome to make idiots of themselves in the regular forum, and I agree they should be given a pretty long leash to do that there. Although when it comes to someone interfering with another person who is trying to sell their personal property in good faith, it is beyond me how that doesn't earn them an immediate lifetime ban, especially when it happens multiple times.

Oh well, not my website I guess. All I can do is scratch my head and not participate if I don't like it either.

I am sorry about your young daughter's health problems. She and you are in my prayers.

Eightbore posted some advice several years ago. It was about BBS statements meant to provoke. His advice was to not counter, not to argue, not to acknowledge in any way but to just ignore the inflammatory post. I have found that when I follow that advice my BBS problems generally go away and I am generally happier on that BBS.

I have a hemorrhoid. I have had it for several years. I have learned that the more and deeper I scratch at it the more intolerable it becomes.

Best,

Mike

Sorry to hear of your problems. I to believe someone who causes trouble should be banned. Paul

I am going to make a recommendation in regard to the For Sale section here for Dave's consideration.
The For Sale are on other forums I frequent do not allow comments to be made about the item up for sale in that area. Anyone wishing to do so can either PM or email the items lister privately. If someone disagrees about the accuracy of the listing they can start a separate thread in the regular area of the forum for discussion. This IMO effectively prevents anyone from trashing another's For Sale listing.
Anyway something to consider.
Jim

+1, Troy, don't let the ba##ard get you down. You have more support on this board than he does. So stick with it.

I'm also sorry to hear about your daughter, as Mike said, she and you will be in our prayers.

God Bless!!!

Greg

Good suggestion, Jim

Posted comments about a seller like:

have nothing to do with the gun for sale obviously, and only drive away sellers which in turn reduces revenue from the $10 "sales commission"

Lock the section down so only the seller can post and all this would be a non-issue.

+1 all the way. Comments should be kept to the subject of sales NOT someones opinion on the item for sale.

Jim hit the nail on the head!

Best!

Greg

Go to the misfire section....and read my reply to this liar.

Troy
I would not let anyone get to me.In the retail business I used to let some cronic complainer get to me and worry about my reputation getting destroyed but a wise lady told me most people will consider the source.Every one on here knows homeless and I don't think any one on this site would use only his opinion.

Your daughter is all you need to be concerned about.
Monty McGee

Dave, please consider the changes suggested above to the For Sale section!

First I would like to offer Mike my sincere condolences about his hemorrhoid.

On a much more serious note, Troy I am sorry to read about your daughter's problems and about your decision to leave our forum community. You are a valued member here and a number of us appreciate your 'for sale' offerings.

I bought a "tomato stake" Boss project gun from you a while ago despite some pretty heavy criticism of the gun from your antagonist. I really believe that in that case jOe was just trying to prevent me from making a mistake. Your description of the gun, its problems, and our subsequent correspondence about its condition was above reproach and completely honest.

I bought the gun with eyes wide open and with a sincere hope to be able to rehabilitate it. When John Foster and my favorite gunsmith SKB refused to have anything to do with sleeving it I was forced to abandon the project.

Later I was contacted by another forum member about buying the gun and I passed it down the road of commerce at a small profit. I explained the problems I'd run into with getting anyone to sleeve it and I hope that the guy who bought it from me is able to do something with it. If not I hope he is as satisfied with my disclosures to him about the Boss as I was with yours.

I hope you will reconsider your decision to cease participating on this forum...Geo

Dang George....this the guy that sold you the tomato stake ?

I never figured a toma'tO stake would drive this guy over the edge.

George told me that Boss of a toma'tO stake cured his....

I was unaware of the subtext here and all the tribulations on the selling side. Unfortunately, postings here occasionally get personal and aggressive and one or two posters seem to contribute nothing useful but delight in snide and pointless jibes. I try to ignore them but I quite understand that you may have had enough. stay in touch.

Excepting of course those who prefer instead to screw with board members . . . .

You guys all missed where he screwed with me.

I regret your departure and wish you and your's the best.

As always I encourage everyone on this board to be positive in their approaches.

Then please inform us jOe. Where did rookhawk "screw with you" that wasn't a response to something you began.

I hope rook is really ok. It seems like there's a bunch of baggage in the starting post that might not impress a potential client and maybe didn't need stirring up to get the message across.

If the stupid comments jOe makes about you harm your ability to make a living, you're in the wrong profession. I do not condone jOe's snide and irritating crap in the least, but your initial post strikes me as being a bit overly dramatic, or maybe even paranoid. But, you must do what you think best. My best to you.

JMO, SRH

Ditto, Stan. Poor old Homeless jOe is in hot water again. I've said this before, I think some of his comments are pretty amusing and I've been his target more than once. He's really Harmless jOe IMHO.

Best wishes to you and especially to your daughter. That is important stuff; NOTHING on this board even comes close. God Bless.

+1.

SRH

posting here or otherwise is voluntary. if you have a problem with what is posted here, then go elsewhere...

craigd states, "It seems like there's a bunch of baggage in the starting post that might not impress a potential client...".

You mean like how he is in a profession where he advises companies about RISK, among other things, and then states how he has mediocre insurance? Maybe should have upgraded the insurance instead of buying a bunch of fancy guns during the good times? I sure as hell wanted that series 1 "E" type and a Churchill XXV, but "settled" for a Spitty and an RBL, but at least I knew my family was taken care of. I too pray his child is ends up OK.

The smartest thing he can do now is try to get ahold of Dave anyway possible and have that whiny azz rant deleted as quickly as possible before any potential clients see it. But what the heck, most of them probably do their due diligence like he does risk management.

Hard to do...since he's attacks and deletes.

Here's the last time I recall...A short time back I asked a few questions about a gun he had listed for sale and he blew up and went to ranting about how he'd never sell me a gun and that I was basically a scum bag....then he deleted his reply and had someone remove my question along with my reply to his slanderous attack on me.

The reason I kept on him was because it was clearly evident that he was in with someone in charge and Rookhawk could basically say what ever he wished to me and then get what ever I said deleted.

Welcome to the wonderful world of internet forums.

I will say this board has less rudeness then most. I'm willing to tolerate the crap in forums in exchange for the knowledge I've gained and the friends I've made(not necessarily in that order).

drop down to the misfires section and you might reconsider your evaluation. Without a doubt, the most gentlemanly gun forum I've seen has been www.16ga.com .

+1. Bird Dogs and Doubles also avoids most of the chat room nonsense.

The SSM forum on the other hand . . . .

Rook
I for one,feel jOe is kinda just fine.If it came down to a vote for in or out, he'd get mine.He just tells it like he sees it, like it or not.And I do like that .
I think he is good at roughly valuing guns across cyberspace from iffy pics, though sometimes a little brutal.
Alot of folks hated old Glenthorn, but I really miss the guy, I bet jOe does too.
I'd miss him too. He has been kinda quite lately, but in some ways
I would rather meet at a SC course with Lowell n Joe than some of the fancier highbrow types that are on here.....but there again I'm not fancy either,...each to his own, right?
cheers
franc

I agree with fanc, jOe would get my vote too.
Steve

+1 for Joe.

Good ideas are worth repeating . . . .

Doubt that you'd meet jOe-Lo on a SC course. Too much shooting involved.

Once when I had gone a few days without posting here Joe sent me a PM to check on me & make sure I was OK. We exchanged a few PM's & I for one will say he seemed a really caring person.
I personally sort of feel that gun sales should be left to the auction/sale sites & not go through a forum such as this, but then its not my choice.

Shoot,
And I thought I might have committed some kind of SidebySuicide in offering my low grade endorsing opinion of our crusty old curmudgeon ,jOe the turkey swatter..sweet
But come on ,I don't believe that even ol'jOe, his bad old self, thinks he deserves 45+ lines of that stuff.
I Firmly believe that there are at least two right & wrong sides to every story, if not several more.
I think you guys who don't get along should be made to all shoot a day long for fun only SClays course,with open bar & a nice meal at the end...but no names mentioned ...untill the bar closes..that would either be great fun, or a Donnybrook.
franc

I too don't mind jOe's posts. But I still think there is merit to limiting the For Sale section to the initial listing. As previously mentioned anyone with questions or interest could PM the seller and they could have a private sidebar.

So, Joe and others, would you feel the same if Homeless were calling you or your family body parts or whatever ? Why do you tolerate one or possibly not the other ? I find Homeless Joes body of work as insulting , bullying,and repulsive, He has been kicked off before, and has never improved his behavior. Would you like to have your family and friends read his posts ? I doubt they would find Homeless amusing.

As to eliminating comment on the. For Sale site, just because one fellow abuses others on it , sort of silly. Let one rotten apple spoil it for many?

Thank you Daryl +1

I'm with Daryl....honest criticism of a gun not accurately described; no problem. But HoJo goes way over the line and makes it personal and abusive. There's just no excuse for that. He needs a loooong time-out from this site.

I also very much agree with Daryl--

Berrien

I don't have a dog in this fight and don't know either party. I would only observe, that in the past when there is any heated debate on forums on this site, there is always a gaggle of regular naysayers. Quick to criticize or take a side, fanning the flames but with nothing constructive to say. One thing is for sure, the two protagonists will not be left to their own devices.

If we are Frying folks..
I find Ed Good &/or Bilious Bob far more disruptive to this forum than old jOe.
I think Ed/Bob, with his Uncle Remus imitations & gun scorching-lore makes him sound thick, jOe sound like David Attenborough in comparison.
But perhaps that is best left for a new Topic.
There's always a few guys who rub you wrong in life,& I certainly haven't meant to offend any of you here either...
Best to all
franc

I've never been tempted to post on a For Sale thread to criticize the price of a gun offered for sale. I always thought that a gun offered for a ridiculous price would just sit for years, as they do on the gun sites. JOe just gets to the root of the situation quicker. I wish he wouldn't do that. Usually such a gun attracts offers at somewhat lesser prices and gets sold, probably at a fair price. That's the way gun selling works. JOe just isn't good at waiting patiently for it to happen.

Franc Otte has a short memory if he thinks Bilbous Bob and Ed Good are the worst we have seen here. There is another maniac out there who has been banned from more than one forum, but is back here on better behavior. I just hope those who have behaved badly in the past think better hehavior is the way to go.

Gentlemen, I was taught along time ago, that if you can't say something nice, then don't say anything at all. That being said, opinions are like assholes, everybody has one and most, if not all stink. Please act your respective ages. Also, Dad always said never to argue with an idiot in public for a stranger cannot tell the difference. Goodnight gentlemen.

Eightbore,
yes ol jOe cutts right to it...
I Didn't say they were the worst (i Like jOe..:), but I'm trying hard to think of the Boxlock, sorry ,Bollocks of which ye speak
of Bill,give us a clue , would ye?..I'm coming up empty....
Guess my memory ain't what it used to be. Come on, give us a hint
Back on the old board?
cheers
franc

Jim...that is spot on....but it is far more problematic....it is called Internet Forum Addiction. Check that out on google...there is life beyond spending 5 to 10 hours a day on forums.

While I'm pretty certain we would not see eye to eye on most things I have never had
an issue with Homeless Joe. He dwells in society where many do not like to be told the truth and do not realize that Southerners like their men deeply religious and a little mad.

franc otte: wana know what the problem is? look in the mirror...

Ah, the power of anonymity. I suspect the "colorful" folks on this site wouldn't speak to folk face-to-face like they do on the site. Suggest that we consider posting in a "face to face" manner

A woman lawyer I know with the FCC had to litigate against a ham radio operator in his license revocation proceedings. He was recorded using the vilest, crudest, misogynistic language on air and had received dozens of complaints. His internet rants were legendary. According to her, in person, he was meek and shy to to point of being more than a little odd. He was totally disarmed in the presence of the female lawyer with whom he had made the worst allegations against on the internet and beyond.

I agree that some use the cover of the internet to say things they would not say in person. I further believe that some also read far more into what is typed versus what was really meant because it was written poorly or read poorly. I am guilty of both.

I have on more than one or two occasions typed something that hit a nerve with another on this forum through a failure to think before I type or emotion when I did type. Sometimes I am simply a poor author. I am almost always a poor typist.


I continue to counsel all what our mothers likely taught all of us, be polite, be positive.

I frequently read things typed on this forum that get under my skin, to include at one time remarks made reference a gun I listed directed at me personally. I answered politely and let it go. If what has been said truly irritates me I deliberately hold back a reply in order not to add further emotion. I am imprefect and have on a couple of occasions PM'd an apology for a misworded or misunderstood statement. If I am wrong I am wrong and admit it and move on. If I am misunderstood I correct that by saying it better and understanding that the error on my part in not writing it better in the first part is my error.

If all of us act as most of us act this will continue to be a great place to trade thoughts, if some act outside that I will go on as I have and not let it get me down. I just smile, shake my head in private, and move forward.

What really matters to me here is the guns. I love doubleguns and playing with them. Lately the board has helped me in expanding that love in a small way into Double Rifles. I am grateful to the members of this board and will continue to positively promote the conversation here.

Troy, good luck for your daughter. I have to say I enjoy Joe´s posts as he says what he thinks (apart from the personal stuff) about guns. Always remember as well what Voltaire said "Sir, I disagree with every word you have said but will defend with my life your right to say it". We are all here voluntarily so I hope you will reconsider. As others have said, when it comes to the internet a lot of people write stuff that they wouldn´t dream of saying to someone over a beer. I know I have unfortunately, best, Mike

After the bald faced lies he told about me in his original post I don't see him showing his face around here again.

The man said he was done.
It would seem you are now free to let the gloating begin.

i would never let a gas bag like joe run me off!!!!

Joe, if the qualities you display in your posts, albeit questionable ones, were given academic status, you would be a Phd. summa cum laude.

OMG!

Homey jOe, Phd. !!

Hey... I heard Rookhawk came out of the closet... then Wonko showed up on the other forum and called him a naughty name... then JRB got all cheesed off and almost let the thread drop... then the Southern happened and jOe got caught with a corn dog in a compromising position... then...

Wow... Let's go for 20 pages guys!!

I don't know if I could handle 20 pages of spew like that which comes forth from a cow that has just eaten green thistles. Here's to ya Bilious.