Appreciate comment re why my LC 20ga field and Parker 12ga VH require extra pressure to open last fraction of an inch for easy extraction.

Perhaps it is so the shells will not fall out of the chambers until one applies that extra pressure?

Mark

Mark.
I can't speak for the Parker, but the Smith's last fraction of an inch is to cock the hammers.

My Father's old 2-frame VH-Grade waterfowl gun was out of adjustment and one could open it far enough to remove the shells, reload and close it without cocking it!! Keith Kearcher worked on it and now it requires that slight extra effort and is cocked just before the shell rims clear the top of the breechface.

I personally prefer the gun to cock just "After" it opens enough to clear the shells. On a gun of good design with a proper barrel check it is far easier to simply always open the gun to the check than to have to fiddle with holding it open while loading or unloading. That's just my opinion of course, but guns so constructed have never given me a problem. Those you have to hold open to load are a constant problem as to do it easily & safely you really need three hands.

The hammers of course should be "Cocking" for the entire drop of the barrels, but they do not reach full cock until the sears drop into the notch/bent. Depending on the individual gun this can occur either before or after the shells will clear the standing breech, I prefer it after.

Why do all my other doubles open fully for loading and extracting and the two mentioned do not? It's too cumbersome to be normal. It's too smooth to be caused by obstruction or mechanical. An adjustment of some kind?

There are proper gunsmithing names for what you detect but to the rest of us, what you feel in those last few degrees of barrel movement is the cocking mechanism moving the hammers/tumblers beyond the point at which the sears engage their bents. When you let off the pressure on the barrels/cocking mechanism, the main springs return the cocking mechanism/barrels to the cocked position.
With the greatest respect to 2-piper, the gun should cock BEFORE the spent shells can be removed/ejected or in theory one could reload and slam shut a gun with the hammers in the fired position, ie strikers protruding from the breech face, with frightening consequences.
A correctly regulated gun will only have a little barrel movement after full cock is achieved and a gun that does not let you load or unload without having to push it beyond full cock has had its sears so reduced in length (by bad manufacture or ham-fisted/repeated trigger regulation) that the correct regulation has been lost and the sears need replacement or extending by a knowledgeable gunsmith with a good TIG welder.

King,

Your LC should be fully cocked before the end of the barrel opening swing cycle, you can feel the hammers cock and the sears set. Cocking should go over center and the sears set at about 85%-90% through the opening cycle, not at the absolute very end.

Most likely the cocking plate in your forearm needs adjusting to cock properly, the screw is on the top of your forearm facing forward at an angle. It is item #56 in the upper left corner with the forend iron group, and is available from Numrich by phone or on line for $3.00 USD + shipping. A new cocking plate screw is also available, item #57. The cocking plate is also pictured for your review.

Adjustment is very simple, but if worn you need a new one. On the other end of the cocking rods you have the hammers #26 and #27 and the cocking cams #17 and #18, it is unlikely they are worn, as they are hardened steel.

Best Regards,

I can't thank all of you personally for the assistance you've given me over the years except to say that I'm grateful. I pass it along where I can. Kind regards, King

ll it appears that every Hammerless double gun I currently own, including a Birmingham built J P Clabrough;

None of them will however be going in to be welded up. Note Though I have owned both in the past I do not currently own either an L C Smith or a Parker. One time about 59 years ago at age 16 on the first Double I ever owned I loaded it without cocking. I don't recall now what kind of game I encountered but when I pushed off the safety & pulled the trigger nothing happened. I learned my lesson well, I have never again loaded a double without the locks being cocked. I don't "Slam" my guns shut & even so you would have to slam it mighty hard for the hammer to come down with enough force to fire the shell. On my Favorite make of gun the firing pins do not protrude, but depend on inertia of the hammer to fire the gun. I don't believe you could close this gun hard enough to fire it with uncocked hammers, now "That's Good Gun Design" even if it "Ain't" British.

The LCS cocks by the crank arm(s) at the front end of the cocking rods (16) engaging the machined slots in the shoe of the forend iron itself and rotating them as the barrel & forend assembly is tipped open. That turns the cocking lifters(17 & 18) at the other end that engage and push the hammer(s) back to engage the sears.

I think Numrich has a few too many parts listed for the LCS extractor forend

All of the hammerless doubles that I am familiar with have rebounding hammers so that there is no pressure on the firing pins to cause them to protrude from the face of the breech when un- cocked, so that they don't get broken when opening or closing the gun. That would also preclude accidental firing when closing the gun with un-cocked hammers. Maybe the Brits make them different. My personal preference is for the barrels to come to rest with a little movement required to extract the shells or to load them. This not only assures that the gun is cocked, but allows it to be carried loaded but broken open without the danger of the shells falling out.

Toby's comments are exactly what I concluded on one of my guns. It's a Ithaca Classic Doubles/Beschi parts gun that I have been going thru to straighten out all the issues. This issue of springing closed slightly, preventing case heads clearing the breach on my gun, is exactly as Toby articulated. To validate this not a corect function of my gun's design, neither of the other two original Ithaca guns that the ICD/Beschi cloned have this issue. I'm currently making new sears.

I can only speak about British guns but in the 20 years or so I have been working on them, I have never come across a pre-1920 British hammerless shotgun with rebounding hammers (plenty of hammerguns but no hammerless).
I too do not 'slam' my guns closed but I see plenty of people on the clay ground and pheasant shoot who do and it only takes one....!
Could slamming a gun closed with the tumblers down fire a primer? It would depend on the degree of 'over-centre' effect of mainspring on tumbler, the mainspring's mechanical advantage, the strength of the mainspring and the softness of the primer. In truth I don't know but have no intention of finding out the scary way!
Bearing all the above in mind, I would suggest (IMHO) that having your gun cock before the cartridges clear the breech face is a wise move.

Kutter,

The cocking rod arms never touch the machined slots/shoes/side walls of the forend iron. The cocking rod arms engage only the cocking plate as the gun is opened as shown in the following series of pictures, note the dual "tracks" on the cocking plate....

The cocking rod arms start in the up position,with the gun closed, as you open the gun by dropping the barrels and the forend, the cocking rod arms are pushed down by the cocking plate in the forend........which in turn pushes the cocking rod cams at the other end up, which engage the hammers and set the sears.

Here are pictures of a 16 gauge L.C. from 1927 with 30" barrels that I am restoring at present as an example:






CAMS DOWN...BARRELS CLOSED.









Best Regards,

Indisputable evidence!,,why I just do not remember that ever being there after all of them I've worked on..
Oh Ooh..

We all do the same thing Kutter...qualifies you as human.....hell, I've gone over to the tool box and can't remember why I went over there........LOL.......

Best Regards,

Doug, I see you are working on a FW that has been worked on before looking at the screw on the coupler.
As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.

You can call the parts what you like, but the part that you call a cam is really a lifter.



King, if you think an L.C. Smith is hard to cock when fired, try cocking any English or Spanish gun with Southgate ejectors, you really do have to break it open over your knee.

The British Clabrough I mentioned is I believe built prior to 1900 for the American market. It is a backaction sidelock, does not have rebounding hammers & can be loaded or unloaded without forcing it open further after it cocks. An American Baker Black Beauty 16ga back action side lock does have rebounding hammers or seems to as when fired & disassembled the pins do not protrude from the breech face. When cocked & released the barrels are well clear of the breech for Un/Loading. All of my Lefevers are timed so the main spring tension is arrested at the point the pins are flush with the breech, leaving the hammers free to travel on until stopped by the pin itself. This is not a true rebounding hammer but serves essentially the same purpose. On all of them the barrels are clear of the breech when cocked. I would not want it any other way. If you want to check to see if you can fire one by "Slamming" it without it being cocked simply put in a snap cap or a primed empty.
I ""NEVER EVER"" walk around with a gun broken open with shells in it, so them falling out is of no concern to me. If in the presence of others I feel the need to open a gun I also unload it. If in a hazardous footing condition I do not feel comfortable navigating with a loaded & closed gun, I Stop, Unload & re-close the gun till I reach a point I feel comfortable with reloading it. Although fortunately I have not proved it, I personally feel that should I take a really serious tumble the gun will have a better chance being bolted shut than with the barrels free to flop & perhaps put a heavy twisting force upon the hinge lug, just my thoughts on the matter, therefore I simply have no cause to walk around with a gun having the barrels swung open & shells in them.
It is a very simple matter to ensure that both barrels are cocked when loading. "IF" either hammer is un-cocked the gun will have to be held open to load. One simply opens the gun until it stays open & its Cocked. No big deal here, Theory is fine but Practicality is often far better. Being able to load without having to hold it open is just far more practical as I still only have two hands, not three & I don't always have a rail fence handy to stick the barrels under while I load.

This is the type of thread you won't find anywhere else, an explanation of something you never would have thought of and an education given therein.

This is still a wonderful site, and the naysayers be damned.