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Posted By: Roy Hebbes Value added by provenance? - 11/26/13 01:27 AM
Most collectors are aware that provenance connecting any item with a well known personality [ie: politician, big game hunter, movie star, author, etc;] almost always increases its value as compared to normal retail. This is certainly true with firearms.
I have in my collection a near mint 12G bar-in-wood hammer gun made in 1875 by a well known English gun maker. Makers records show that the original owner was the son of an English Baron. Dose the provenance described above add to the value of the gun?
Posted By: OH Osthaus Re: Value added by provenance? - 11/26/13 01:40 AM
was the owner famous for anything other than his birth?

i would not think title alone would add value.
Posted By: obsessed-with-doubles Re: Value added by provenance? - 11/26/13 01:58 AM
I wouldn't pay more for it.

Now please share the gun with us. I would love to see it.

OWD
Posted By: skeettx Re: Value added by provenance? - 11/26/13 02:34 AM
Well, take a look here

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/11/...t-auction?lite=
Posted By: PM Re: Value added by provenance? - 11/26/13 03:20 AM
In most cases it adds interest but not value. Many English guns were owned by nobility both domestic and foreign, who else could afford them?
Posted By: eightbore Re: Value added by provenance? - 11/26/13 12:21 PM
I thought they were all Barons or some such.
Posted By: Small Bore Re: Value added by provenance? - 11/26/13 12:33 PM
Unless the gun was ordered from new by The King, Walsingham, Ripon, Ernest Hemingway, Winston Churchill, a Tsar or Russia, etc provenance is of limited value in monetary terms.

A lot of best guns were made for the landed gentry, many of them are of no historical consequence. Even minor royals are not really interesting, the person concerned generally has to be either a big noise in shooting history, a famous author, like WDM Bell etc or be of such significance that his possessions are interesting to those beyond the shooting.gun collecting community.

As with all other gun purchases, original quality and current condition are the key.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Value added by provenance? - 11/26/13 03:00 PM
In some cases, it could perhaps be the case that it might diminish value:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/REMINGT...un_id=100244325

Just sayin...

Best,
Ted
Posted By: GLS Re: Value added by provenance? - 11/26/13 03:13 PM
Ted, Danke Schoen! Gil
Posted By: Bilious Bob Re: Value added by provenance? - 11/26/13 03:51 PM
Well shuckers, Andy...

Looks like Bonhams and Christie's might as well shut 'er down...
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: Value added by provenance? - 11/26/13 04:05 PM
I hold with those who've opined that provenance adds little value except in 'celebrity' cases. However researching the history of a particular gun and developing provenance can be great fun.

Despite the dire,and I believe sincere warnings of the Malevolent Memphian I bought a tomato stake Boss last year that I thought I could salvage. I went to the extreme to pay Boss 50 pounds for a xerox copy of the original record of the order and building of the gun. It was built in 1860 as a pin-fire and later converted to center-fire.

When I researched the name of the original owner I found that he was a son of the 4th Earl of Harewood, that he went into the ministry, that he was an official of Ripon Cathedral, and that he lived during the same period of time that the namesake of the Cathedral was doing all that bird shooting. The two were of equal social status and I have no doubt that my Boss at some point in its history occupied a spot on some shoot next to the Earl deGrey, Ripon.

If you'd like to be impressed google 'Harewood House' and check out the digs my gun's owner grew up in. In comparison Downton's a hovel. If you watched the latest Royal Family marriage coverage you may have noticed an elderly gentleman in the family photos with a snow white pointy beard. That was the Queen's 1st cousin (I think) the 7th Earl of Harewood.

I found that I could do nothing about properly restoring the Boss and despite Joe's opinions managed to pass it along at a small profit to another member here. Considering the provenance of the gun, I would have been happy though to have kept it as a wall-hanger and to have thought of the rich history of the gun through the absolute zenith of British wing shooting whenever I looked at it...Geo
Posted By: King Brown Re: Value added by provenance? - 11/26/13 04:54 PM
I guess it's how we think of value. There is value to some of where the gun has been and who owned it. Each time I handle my plain A&N I think of the British shops where public and military servants bought their cigars, gin, pistols and shotguns. Same with my Francotte with the name of original owner on the rib, captain of the first US Olympic trap team in 1912. The chokes and shorter barrels were obviously for the hardwoods of New England. My 1899 hammer 16 Parker is the same model as Annie Oakley's. Each time I hunt with them I handle them more tenderly.
Posted By: pod Re: Value added by provenance? - 11/26/13 05:07 PM
many years ago I acquired two guns from a G.I. who's outfit occupied Hohenzollern castle during WW2. one being a sauer sxs hammer rifle built in 1893 also a matching hammered drilling of 1893. I never figured that increased the value or cared but with all my fine guns owned they would be the last to go. there are some things that you just like and money or provenance doesn't influence its desirability.
Posted By: Chuck H Re: Value added by provenance? - 11/26/13 05:47 PM
I remember Buddy Hackett's guns (Parker Repros?) being advertised for a long time above common market value. They lowered the price to about market/top of market and they disappeared from the web. Cabelas had some guns from a NASCAR driver a few years back. They tried to get above market, but I think they dropped prices to about top of the market.

The famous publishing giant "Pete" Peterson's guns brought wholesale prices, here in America, right in Southern California where he's most famous!

If it were John Wayne's collection of guns, some of which were used in movies, they'd bring a premium, I'm sure. Maybe even in England.
Posted By: Wonko the Sane Re: Value added by provenance? - 11/28/13 04:41 AM
Man, I pity the poor souls that'll have to face paying the ultra-premium prices for my guns when they hit the market. HAH!

have a day

Dr.WtS
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Value added by provenance? - 11/28/13 12:15 PM
If that provenance happened to be my grandfather(s), you wouldn't want to be bidding against me. Other than that, the only value of provenance to me, and most others I suspect, is speculation. If I were to buy a well used Colt on a hunch, and proved later that it had provenance to Hickock, that provenance would have value. (all the way to James Julia's)

SRH
Posted By: Sam Ogle Re: Value added by provenance? - 11/28/13 12:54 PM
Some years ago; in a Cabela's store I was working in; a young woman and her husband came into the store with a nice old handgun:
We did an appraisal on it for her, and as she was leaving, she said "Does it help the value if Buffalo Bill gave this to my grandfather?" We said "Wow, Do you have any documentation?" She said "No; grandfather used to sell livestock hay to Buffalo Bill, and he was given the gun by him as a token of his appreciation."
We told her unfortunately, without some kind of provenance, the value is the same.
Ah well.......such is life.
Sam
Posted By: damascus Re: Value added by provenance? - 11/28/13 05:22 PM
A guns provenance can sometimes be so hard to believe in fact you can even say it can’t all be true. One of my guns was made for as someone has said already said one of the Brit gentry but what a man and what a life he had. Starting with a feud over a horse with a Marquis, the horse in question then won the Epsom Derby with odds of 10000 to 15 wiping out a large number of bookmakers the said Marquis ran off with his fiancée causing a massive scandal. The Marques bet against the horse wining which financially broke him, King Edward the V11 was a close friend of the guns owner and after things quietened down on a recommendation of the King he became a politician MP and then the first Brit minister of Agriculture, gambled and purchased horses as if his life depended on it which in the end caused him to sell of the family estate.
If I told you his name you would say who!!!!! And the book telling part of the story was a top seller every where but here in the UK so I think the story may add a pound or two to the guns selling price but you can never tell.




Posted By: eightbore Re: Value added by provenance? - 11/28/13 05:36 PM
Chuck hasn't paid much attention to Robert Petersen's (not Peterson's) guns at auction. His guns are the finest of the fine and sell for good prices, although maybe not because of Petersen provenance. His Parker Invincibles, although not sold for a few years, are insured and appraised for about five million, although not because of Petersen provenance. I guess Chuck has a point.
Posted By: Chuck H Re: Value added by provenance? - 11/28/13 06:54 PM
I guess I mistook a bunch of those buyers as dealers and wannabe dealers. Hmmm. Maybe they were all hunters and collectors.
Posted By: James M Re: Value added by provenance? - 11/28/13 07:26 PM
I picked up a nondescript Colt Police positive special at a gun show several years ago. The butt was stamped W F & Co and I asked the seller if it was in fact a Wells Fargo gun? He just shrugged his shoulders.
Keep in mind that there's a ton of faked Wells Fargo guns around. However; A letter from the Cost historian confirmed that it is in fact a pistol that was shipped to Wells Fargo.
This adds considerable value to what is otherwise a common pistol.
Jim
Posted By: AkMike1 Re: Value added by provenance? - 11/28/13 09:40 PM
I've got one of Pedersen's double rifles. His ownership didn't add anything to the value when I bought it. It just made it some what interesting.
Posted By: greypartridge Re: Value added by provenance? - 11/28/13 10:30 PM


The famous publishing giant "Pete" Peterson's guns brought wholesale prices, here in America, right in Southern California where he's most famous!

The reason for Peterson's guns pricing and long time on the market is
I believe most if not all of his guns had SHORT L.O.P.
Posted By: Krakow Kid Re: Value added by provenance? - 11/30/13 03:15 PM
Boy, I'd pay DOUBLE for a gun owned by Buddy Hackett. Speaking of which, anybody know the whereabouts of any guns formerly owned by Jan Murray? Shecky Green? Howzabout Charlie Callas?
Posted By: Replacement Re: Value added by provenance? - 11/30/13 03:19 PM
I know where one of Artie Shaw's trap guns is. Been for sale in the same shop for a long time.
Posted By: Pete Re: Value added by provenance? - 11/30/13 08:55 PM
WOW! Could there possible be a Wonko the Sane gun out there for sale? To be legit it would have to have a black painted stock covering a many times cut and recut stock to fit with happy faces with bullets in the skull and nekked lady photos glued to the stock. And you guys wondered if Wonko was really a classy guy?!

Missed you at the Reno show, Chas.
Posted By: Wonko the Sane Re: Value added by provenance? - 11/30/13 09:02 PM
Pete -

I looked for you but I guess you saw me first hahaha

All else I saw was a mass of overpriced sh*t. Substantial number of buy-by-pound/sell-by-oz sorta folks. Fortunately my need gauge was on zero.

If I plan to off any of my special guns I'll let you know first.

have a day

Dr.WtS
Posted By: Pete Re: Value added by provenance? - 11/30/13 09:29 PM
Wanker, I picked up (dirt cheap) a minty Chas Daley/Lindner with a $2000 piece of Circassian (12 ga). However, most everything else in which I had an interest was well overpriced. Sales were rather flat but the guy I help there bought and traded well. Prices can get reasonable when cash starts talking. A friend bought a very nice Parker DH or DHE 28 gauge for $12K in line before the guy got into the show. That was worth double.
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